Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Gillian White]

This anime image is not appropriate on the front page. Questions of art, of
education, and of publication, all require judgement. Judgement in these
matters is normal and necessary and is not of itself something which needs
apology. Here are some reasons why I think it is okay to decide NOT to put
this picture on the front page. This is not to say that it should be
deleted, it is simply not appropriate for the front page – and that does not
constitute censorship.

 The commonality of discriminatory product placement

Most areas of endeavour exercise care and some discrimination about their
products. It's not that they are illegal or censored; it's that they are
inappropriate in some places. For example, at a recent exhibition in the Art
Gallery of New South Wales, a very explicit drawing was placed at the far
end of the exhibition and a sign was placed discreetly to inform members of
the public who had to make a choice about whether to view them. In the case
of Wikimedia, there might be gory images, for example, of the effect of
land-mines which explode in children's faces. They are probably valuable –
encyclopedic and even educational – but would they be appropriate on the
front page? Their value is not diminished by leaving them in the body of the
repository and it is not censorship to make some small efforts necessary to
access them.

 The woman's body

If you put a large-breasted indigenous naked woman in an image, people would
not be commenting on the size of her breasts. They would see them as part of
the woman herself, whereas the breasts on which people have commented in
this anime are plainly “designed” for service to (some) viewers. In fact,
this image's offensiveness to many comes not from the size of the breasts
but rather from the whole backbreaking pose of the woman.

 Art and education

If this is a form of art, the question is not whether or not you like the
breasts (there are lots of breasts in art) but whether the art has its own
integrity. That is an aesthetic question, which is why the colour palette is
not under challenge as it contributes to the integrity of the image. Commons
has criteria for aesthetic quality, but they do not specify or restrict
subject matter. However, whether you like this art or any component part of
it in any image is irrelevant. Audience approval of the “tits” is only
relevant if the image is about titillation. Only if this is the purpose,
does the approval of the pose and body parts become relevant.

 If the image is not about art but is rather about education, then the
subject's body and pose are misleading, as are the clothes and everything
else, even the colour palette. Above all, if it is about education, then an
argument that its primary purpose to educate about the art form (manga) or
the medium (the software) is spurious and disingenuous.

Thanks,

Whiteghost.ink

PS I am a newbie female Åustralian Wikipedian and have been following this
list for a while but this is my first contribution to it. I really think
this is the wrong sort of image for the front page. Apart from all the other
arguments, I think it is likely to deter whole demographics (plural) from
contributing to any of the WM projects.
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Pete Forsyth]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch wrote:

>  On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
> -Pete
>
> I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to
> see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where
> do we start? ;-)
>

Hi Sarah,

I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).

My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem --
or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining
where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:

(1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of
unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
(2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial
values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons;
(3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to
understand and poorly documented.

How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently work?
I think that process will point the way toward recommending a solution.

I've set up a page for this project, if you're game!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD

-Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi all,

On Monday 16 May 2011 05:03:26 Sarah Stierch wrote:
> Surely I'm not the only one who noticed this lovely gem of a photo of
> the day today. In my work environment - NFWS.
> 
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
> 
> Direct link to image:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
> 
> I mean really? /facepalm
> 
> This is the kind of imagery I have no desire to see on the front page of
> Commons. I'm a very liberal person, but, this makes me not want to even
> allow my MOTHER to use Commons.
> 

I should note that I agree that such an image has no place as the photo of the 
day on the Wikimedia Commons, due to its erotic/pornographic nature. It is a 
very æsthetic work of art, and I found it appealing, but it has no place being 
featured as the front page image.

And for the record, I am a heterosexual male, who opposes censoring 
pornography, erotica, partial pornography, etc. of all kinds[Censorship], but 
think there are contexts where they are inappropriate.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

[Censorship] - in fact, I would argue that such calls for censorship undermine 
a person's right on their body, and sexual freedom for both genders. 

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
My Favourite FOSS - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/favourite/

My Commodore 64 is suffering from slowness and insufficiency of memory, and 
its display device is grievously short of pixels.  Can anybody help? -- Omer 
Zak

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Escape from GNU Autohell - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-
source/anti/autohell/

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with it!

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] [Foundation-l] Commons as an art gallery?

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Mon, 16/5/11, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> From: Andreas Kolbe 
> Subject: Re: [Commons-l] [Foundation-l] Commons as an art gallery?
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" , 
> "Wikimedia Commons Discussion List" , 
> "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 
> 
> Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 19:03
> Incidentally, that little piece of
> original art is also the picture of the
> day on several Wikipedias' main pages; among them the
> Russian and Bulgarian
> Wikipedias.


It's also on the Bengali Wikipedia's main page (serving Bangladesh and parts of 
India). 

http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AA%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%A7%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A8_%E0%A6%AA%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%BE

Andreas

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Nepenthe]

I was all ready to point out that administrators (at least on en.wiki,
theoretically) discount comments like that, but that was *not* done in this
case per the closing summary.

Nepenthe

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Sarah  wrote:

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:36, Sarah Stierch wrote:
>
>>  If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what
>> goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found out
>> about this today, and I look forward to contributing:
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates
>>
>> One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the
>> featured "fictional" person had "big tits."
>>
>>
> The breasts were indeed a factor, and one comment in favour was "i like her
> big tits".
>
> The old discussion is here --
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/candidate_list&oldid=48076437#File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg.2C_featured
>
> Sarah
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Foundation-l] Commons as an art gallery?

[Andreas Kolbe]

Incidentally, that little piece of original art is also the picture of the
day on several Wikipedias' main pages; among them the Russian and Bulgarian
Wikipedias.

The image itself has been nominated for deletion in Commons by 
User:AndreasPraefcke, as out of scope.

A.

--- On Mon, 16/5/11, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> From: Andreas Kolbe 
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Commons as an art gallery?
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" , 
> "Wikimedia Commons Discussion List" , 
> "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 
> 
> Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 16:40
> There is a long thread on the Commons
> and Gendergap lists about today's
> featured image on Commons:
> 
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/commons-l/2011-May/
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-May/
> 
> It's an original piece of art by a Wikimedian, "in the
> style of" erotic 
> manga:
> 
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
> 
> The picture was removed from the main page by a WMF staff
> member, acting as
> an ordinary editor, and then restored a few hours later by
> a Commons admin. 
> 
> Aspects of the image that have been discussed include the
> fact that 
> 
> * it has no noteworthy artistic value
> 
> * it is used to showcase a Wikimedian's artwork on the
> project main page
> 
> * it lacks educational value, being the work of a
> non-notable Wikimedian
> 
> * it makes the Foundation look puerile
> 
> * it might turn off serious educators
> 
> * it might turn off older people
> 
> * it might turn off schools
> 
> * it might turn off women
> 
> * it might turn off institutions owning valuable content
> from donating to the Foundation
> 
> * it is the victim of cultural fascism directed against
> manga/anime
> 
> * it is the victim of prudery
> 
> * it is the victim of censorship
> 
> * not showing the image on the mian page would undermine
> the Foundation's mission
> 
> etc. etc.
>  
> This is really a Foundation topic though. Are projects'
> main pages there to 
> showcase Wikimedians' fine art? If yes, then why do we not
> have songs by 
> unsigned garage bands "in the style of ..." as featured
> media of the day?
> 
> Should the Foundation establish guidelines on what type of
> content to feature
> on project main pages?
> 
> Crossposted to Foundation-l, Commons-l and Gendergap.
> 
> Andreas
> 
> ___
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> 

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:36, Sarah Stierch  wrote:

>  If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what
> goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found out
> about this today, and I look forward to contributing:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates
>
> One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the
> featured "fictional" person had "big tits."
>
>
The breasts were indeed a factor, and one comment in favour was "i like her
big tits".

The old discussion is here --
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/candidate_list&oldid=48076437#File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg.2C_featured

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah Stierch]

On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete



As we know on this list, inclusiveness is a key to making Wikimedia what 
it is. I do wish that I could erase the 'your country vs. my country' 
ideals that are within many of these peoples heads.


I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to 
see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. 
Where do we start? ;-)


Side note re: Commons image:

If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what 
goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found 
out about this today, and I look forward to contributing:


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates

One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the 
featured "fictional" person had "big tits."


#wikilove,

Sarah


--
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Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art 


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Re: [Gendergap] Commons as an art gallery?

[carolmooredc]

*puerile* - perfect!

* A good long list makes the squeaky wheel loud and clear :-)

On 5/16/2011 11:40 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> There is a long thread on the Commons and Gendergap lists about today's
> featured image on Commons:
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/commons-l/2011-May/
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-May/
>
> It's an original piece of art by a Wikimedian, "in the style of" erotic
> manga:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
>
> The picture was removed from the main page by a WMF staff member, acting as
> an ordinary editor, and then restored a few hours later by a Commons admin.
>
> Aspects of the image that have been discussed include the fact that
>
> * it has no noteworthy artistic value
>
> * it is used to showcase a Wikimedian's artwork on the project main page
>
> * it lacks educational value, being the work of a non-notable Wikimedian
>
> * it makes the Foundation look puerile
>
> * it might turn off serious educators
>
> * it might turn off older people
>
> * it might turn off schools
>
> * it might turn off women
>
> * it might turn off institutions owning valuable content from donating to the 
> Foundation
>
> * it is the victim of cultural fascism directed against manga/anime
>
> * it is the victim of prudery
>
> * it is the victim of censorship
>
> * not showing the image on the mian page would undermine the Foundation's 
> mission
>
> etc. etc.
>
> This is really a Foundation topic though. Are projects' main pages there to
> showcase Wikimedians' fine art? If yes, then why do we not have songs by
> unsigned garage bands "in the style of ..." as featured media of the day?
>
> Should the Foundation establish guidelines on what type of content to feature
> on project main pages?
>
> Crossposted to Foundation-l, Commons-l and Gendergap.
>
> Andreas
>
>

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Pete Forsyth]

In my opinion there's a large and pervasive problem behind today's controversy: 
in striking contrast to our core value of openness, it is very difficult to 
even *perceive* how important decisions like this are made. Both the technical 
and the editorial processes are pretty opaque to the average main page visitor.

I suspect there are ways the Commons pages relating to Picture of the Day could 
be improved to make it clearer to the reader how decisions are made, and how to 
meaningfully participate in those processes.

For instance, main page content could have a link named something like "how did 
this get here?" that would permit the reader to view the discussion that led to 
its inclusion on the main page. (This is just an off-the-cuff idea, to 
illustrate the general kind of usability changes I would like to explore.)

To put it another way, the issue behind today's controversy that interests me 
most is access. Increasing the ability of a large and diverse group to 
participate in important decisions (like what gets featured on the main Commons 
page) is something that would both honor the basic values of our project, and 
(I believe) support better content decisions in the future.

Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete


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[Gendergap] Commons as an art gallery?

[Andreas Kolbe]

There is a long thread on the Commons and Gendergap lists about today's
featured image on Commons:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/commons-l/2011-May/
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-May/

It's an original piece of art by a Wikimedian, "in the style of" erotic 
manga:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

The picture was removed from the main page by a WMF staff member, acting as
an ordinary editor, and then restored a few hours later by a Commons admin. 

Aspects of the image that have been discussed include the fact that 

* it has no noteworthy artistic value

* it is used to showcase a Wikimedian's artwork on the project main page

* it lacks educational value, being the work of a non-notable Wikimedian

* it makes the Foundation look puerile

* it might turn off serious educators

* it might turn off older people

* it might turn off schools

* it might turn off women

* it might turn off institutions owning valuable content from donating to the 
Foundation

* it is the victim of cultural fascism directed against manga/anime

* it is the victim of prudery

* it is the victim of censorship

* not showing the image on the mian page would undermine the Foundation's 
mission

etc. etc.
 
This is really a Foundation topic though. Are projects' main pages there to 
showcase Wikimedians' fine art? If yes, then why do we not have songs by 
unsigned garage bands "in the style of ..." as featured media of the day?

Should the Foundation establish guidelines on what type of content to feature
on project main pages?

Crossposted to Foundation-l, Commons-l and Gendergap.

Andreas

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Mon, 16/5/11, Béria Lima  wrote:
From: Béria Lima 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 14:10


That
 said, changed the picture without any discussion, only because some 
people don't want to see a half-naked anime girl on Main Page (btw: What
 is the problem with that picture? I'm a girl, and i'm not AT ALL 
offended for see that in main page) was a act that NO ONE should do 
without consensus. Not an adm, not an editor, not a staff. 


And do that by abusing the tools WMF and the communitty gave you only made 
everything even worse. 

That
 said, i restored the original image of the day and would love if you 
people decide if the picture should stay or not in main page ON COMMONS

I still don't understand what that image that you restored is doing on the main 
page ofCommons. If I record an original, unpublished post-punk song with my 
completely non-notable garage band, will you feature that too on the main page, 
as an educational exampleof post-punk? If not, how is that image different?
Does Commons now provide free advertising for up-and-coming artists eager to 
makea name for themselves?
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

>
> *Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
> being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
> administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
> that's a staff action.*
>

That said, changed the picture without any discussion, only because some
people don't want to see a half-naked anime girl on Main Page (btw: What is
the problem with that picture? I'm a girl, and i'm not AT ALL offended for
see that in main page) was a act that NO ONE should do without consensus.
Not an adm, not an editor, not a staff.

And do that by abusing the tools WMF and the communitty gave you only made
everything even worse.

That said, i restored the original image of the day and would love if you
people decide if the picture should stay or not in main page ON COMMONS
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal 
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/16 Aaron Adrignola 
>
>> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Neil Kandalgaonkar 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I changed the picture. I'd like to note that I did this not owing to any
>>> 'authority' I might have as a WMF employee, just as a regular person
>>> associated with Commons.
>>>
>>>
>> Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
>> being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
>> administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
>> that's a staff action.
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Thomas Koenig]

 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Sun, 15 May 2011 22:08:06 -0400
> From: Sarah Stierch 
> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> Tagline: Re: [Gendergap] Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

> Image is more like it, not photo. A talented artist, just..not the most 
> welcoming image when thinking about gender concerns and bringing women 
> into Wikimedia..IMHO..

Frankly speaking, it's not only women who get repelled by such blatantly sexist 
images. A stylized, kneeling, naked woman? It's not difficult to see whose 
(mainstream) fantasies such images are catering to. Unfortunately, given the 
deeply misogynist environment of most (all?) Wikimedia projects, what are you 
gonna do against it? You will not get even a majority, let alone "consensus" to 
ban such images from the main pages. 

Thomas aka user:fossa
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