Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841 Coming up with stuff old women like would actually be a good idea, but I don't think thecontributor meant it that way. At this deletion request http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Paleis_lange_voorhout.jpg I pointed out that the creator of the manga image placed it on a photograph of the Escher museum, making it appear his image appeared there. This is deceptive, and against Commons image guidelines. The only response to the deletion request so far is a Keep. The request to remove featured status from the Edge of the World manga image, startedindependently of our discussions by a Russian Wikipedia editor, is heading for a Keep: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/removal/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg Here is the original nomination: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg The image failed to achieve featured status in German Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kandidaten_f%C3%BCr_exzellente_Bilder/Archiv2011/1#On_the_edge_.E2.80.93_2._Januar_bis_16._Januar_-_Contra 7 for, 8 against, which based on objective criteria of artistic and educational merit is still kindto the image. I am thinking of writing a letter to the Commons Village Pump to ask the community to takea long hard look at its basic competence. Sue, any ideas? Andreas --- On Tue, 17/5/11, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: From: Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 16:19 Hi dz, Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been really busy the past few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California, and GLAM related activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I haven't had time to sit down and get my stuff together for the HOW-TO. But, I'd love to add you to our HOW-TO gang if you like. =) Sarah On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote: I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last week was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... having the right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to make that key more widely available, or second nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. In any case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general from that noob perspective. cheers dz On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote: On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote: Anybody interested in tackling this issue? -Pete I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where do we start? ;-) Hi Sarah, I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else). My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem -- or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
Andreas, Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that. That is my last warning _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/ (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.* 2011/5/18 Andreas Kolbe jayen...@yahoo.com This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841 http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841Coming up with stuff old women like would actually be a good idea, but I don't think the contributor meant it that way. At this deletion request http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Paleis_lange_voorhout.jpg I pointed out that the creator of the manga image placed it on a photograph of the Escher museum, making it appear his image appeared there. This is deceptive, and against Commons image guidelines. The only response to the deletion request so far is a Keep. The request to remove featured status from the Edge of the World manga image, started independently of our discussions by a Russian Wikipedia editor, is heading for a Keep: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/removal/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg Here is the original nomination: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg The image failed to achieve featured status in German Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kandidaten_f%C3%BCr_exzellente_Bilder/Archiv2011/1#On_the_edge_.E2.80.93_2._Januar_bis_16._Januar_-_Contra 7 for, 8 against, which based on objective criteria of artistic and educational merit is still kind to the image. I am thinking of writing a letter to the Commons Village Pump to ask the community to take a long hard look at its basic competence. Sue, any ideas? Andreas --- On *Tue, 17/5/11, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com* wrote: From: Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 16:19 Hi dz, Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been *really* busy the past few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California, and GLAM related activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I haven't had time to sit down and get my stuff together for the HOW-TO. But, I'd love to add you to our HOW-TO gang if you like. =) Sarah On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote: I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last week was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... having the right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to make that key more widely available, or second nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. In any case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general from that noob perspective. cheers dz On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote: On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.comhttp://mc/compose?to=sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote: Anybody interested in tackling this issue? -Pete I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where do we start? ;-) Hi Sarah, I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else). My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem -- or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are: (1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia); (2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons; (3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to understand and poorly documented. How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently work? I think that process will point the way toward recommending a solution. I've set up a page for this project, if you're game! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD -Pete ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.orghttp://mc/compose?to=Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54 Andreas, Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that. That is my last warning This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss. This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then featuring them on the main page. Or creating categories like People using vacuum cleaners. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_using_vacuum_cleaners In my view, it's a basic community competence issue. Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
Beria, Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:54:57 +0100 From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on WikimediaCommons Andreas, Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that. Closing the gender gap is a political issue. How else other than canvassing are you gonna further that issue? Par ordre du mufti? You yourself rightfully criticized a WMF staff member for attempting to do so. Thus, this list is definitely a venue for canvassing. Thomas aka fossa -- NEU: FreePhone - kostenlos mobil telefonieren und surfen! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841 Coming up with stuff old women like would actually be a good idea, but I don't think thecontributor meant it that way. One misinformed user is not a climate of misogyny; and I must say, other than one user, now banned, I've never encountered agism on our projects. Although sometimes things older people know about are not understood or appreciated by a crew of younger people. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54 Andreas, Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that. That is my last warning This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss. I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it. This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then featuring them on the main page. You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when discussions are evaluated. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
Fred, as I've already noted, the offending comment was apparently *not*eliminated from the final tally of the votes made by George Chernilevsky, though omitting it would not have changed the outcome of the vote. Nepenthe On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54 Andreas, Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that. That is my last warning This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss. I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it. This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then featuring them on the main page. You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when discussions are evaluated. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:23 --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54 This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss. I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it. Could we agree that a decision not to feature a medicore and non-notable piece of original art that offers no or little educational value is _not_ censorhip? And could we agree that featuring a medicore and non-notable piece of original art that offers no or little educational value, just because it has tits in it, is questionable? This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then featuring them on the main page. You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when discussions are evaluated. You have been informed several times that the comment was not discounted. Those who supported featured status for the image explained their reasons as follows: 1. Support. Kawaii :) (Japanese for cute or charming) 2. Support I like it. Well it's manga so the colors or landscape do not have to make sense ;-) 3. Support 4. Support Superb work 5. Support i like her big tits :-) 6. Support i know that it was very much of work for the user. i have seen the first lines of it and can see now the result: a wunderful work. 7. Support - very good work. 8. strong Support I have seen this work evolve and it is brilliant. Keep up the good work niabot! The end result was 8 support, 2 oppose, 2 neutral = featured. Discussion here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg Personally, I found those who commented or opposed a bit more articulate than those who supported in that discussion. Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
Fred, as I've already noted, the offending comment was apparently *not*eliminated from the final tally of the votes made by George Chernilevsky, though omitting it would not have changed the outcome of the vote. Nepenthe It should not have been considered. That is our standard practice with inane reasons. In the background is the question of whether something should have been done. What would be appropriate? A private note, a note on the users talk page? A warning? Removal of the remark from the discussion? Deletion of the edit? Suppression of the edit? Perhaps a discussion of the remark at the Village Pump on Commons? We do have a deletion reason WP:RD2 Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material that has little/no encyclopedic or project value and/or violates our Biographies of living people policy. This includes slurs, smears, and grossly offensive material of little or no encyclopedic value, but not mere factual statements, and not ordinary incivility, personal attacks or conduct accusations. When attack pages or pages with grossly improper titles are deleted, the page names may also be removed from the delete and page move logs. I think this falls within ordinary incivility, but someone might have a different opinion. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote:From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:19 The community is already discussing this matter Andreas. What you are doing is, since your vote is not going the way you want (the picture, apparentely, will remain as a FP) you are canvassing votes here, so people can go there are vote to delist the image. That, my dear, is pure canvass, and is not allowed in any project. So, again, stop do that. Dear Beria, You would have a leg to stand on if anyone, at all, who had read my posts on this or any other mailing list, had voted in my favour in these communitydiscussions. I am not aware that anyone has. Of the 5 people who have voted to delist,I do not recognise a single name from the mailing lists. And I believe ifanyone here had decided to vote, they would be experienced enough, andhave enough integrity, to disclose along with their vote that they becameaware of the discussion through a mailing list post. Further: If list members had commented, which they have not, and the vote were goingagainst you, which it is not, you would be well within your rights to contest the result, and ask the community to look into any undue effect mailing listdiscussions may have had on the discussion. However, nothing like this hashappened. As it is, you are out of line to threaten me on my Commons user page for participating in discussions on this list. Regards,Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
Could we agree that a decision not to feature a medicore and non-notable piece of original art that offers no or little educational value is _not_ censorhip? And could we agree that featuring a medicore and non-notable piece of original art that offers no or little educational value, just because it has tits in it, is questionable? No, the image had political content, read policy for Commons, as an allegory of Liberty. Bare breasts, although usually somewhat smaller breasts, are standard in images of Liberty, at least French, or European ones, see File:1672 Gérard de Lairesse - Allegory of the Freedom of Trade.jpg You keep saying, just because it has tits in it. That is specious. See the author's note on the description of the image, Author: Niabot, because commons should stay free Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 15:23 No, the image had political content, read policy for Commons, as an allegory of Liberty. Bare breasts, although usually somewhat smaller breasts, are standard in images of Liberty, at least French, or European ones, see File:1672 Gérard de Lairesse - Allegory of the Freedom of Trade.jpg I am sure the editor who said I like her big tits had that political message in mind. You keep saying, just because it has tits in it. That is specious. See the author's note on the description of the image, Author: Niabot, because commons should stay free“ I have honestly not seen Niabot claim that he was trying to riff on traditional bare-breasted representations of Liberty. The only person I have seen make that claim is you. Even if true, the question is whether the artistic, historic and educational merit of this particular riff on the Liberty figure warrant featuring this image. In my opinion, they do not, and I honestly suspect any of these concerns were way over the heads of those who voted for it. Niabot has a recent habit of signing his images with a political tag line. The same because commons should stay free tag line is present in this close-up of the cat in the image: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version_(kitty_crop).jpg Here (*deservedly* a featured picture by him), he says: “Niabot, because wikimedia commons lost his roots”. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anime_Girl.png Personally I disagree with the statement, as the roots of Commons are not manga, or sites like DeviantArt, but in this case the image is deservedly featured. The same commons has lost its roots tag line is also on these images: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dojikko.png http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Futanari.png I don't think the author's tag line affects image quality one way or the other. Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:23, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then featuring them on the main page. You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when discussions are evaluated. How do you know the comments were discounted, Fred? And that's not really the point anyway. The comments were made. People felt it was okay to make them. That's the culture we're trying to change. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
I'm only warning a commons user that canvassing is not accepted. And since you need to be warned on wiki, i did that. And btw, you don't recognize any name, but I do (i will not mention here because that would be rude to then) So, again, you will stop that idiot crusade against this picture and we can move on to discuss the original propose of that list, or we will need to change that to the Adm noticeboard in commons? _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/ (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.* 2011/5/18 Andreas Kolbe jayen...@yahoo.com --- On *Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt* wrote: From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:19 The community is already discussing this matter Andreas. What you are doing is, since your vote is not going the way you want (the picture, apparentely, will remain as a FP) you are canvassing votes here, so people can go there are vote to delist the image. That, my dear, is pure canvass, and is not allowed in any project. So, again, stop do that. Dear Beria, You would have a leg to stand on if anyone, at all, who had read my posts on this or any other mailing list, had voted in my favour in these community discussions. I am not aware that anyone has. Of the 5 people who have voted to delist, I do not recognise a single name from the mailing lists. And I believe if anyone here had decided to vote, they would be experienced enough, and have enough integrity, to disclose along with their vote that they became aware of the discussion through a mailing list post. Further: If list members had commented, which they have not, and the vote were going against you, which it is not, you would be well within your rights to contest the result, and ask the community to look into any undue effect mailing list discussions may have had on the discussion. However, nothing like this has happened. As it is, you are out of line to threaten me on my Commons user page for participating in discussions on this list. Regards, Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way). Create a cruzade against that image would not change anything. And btw, take political, ideological or any other kind of ideas from a 5 words phrase requires much imagination. Is not better ask the person what he meant by that? _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/ (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.* 2011/5/18 Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:23, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.netwrote: This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then featuring them on the main page. You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when discussions are evaluated. How do you know the comments were discounted, Fred? And that's not really the point anyway. The comments were made. People felt it was okay to make them. That's the culture we're trying to change. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way). _ *Béria Lima* So where is that discussion? I found Commons:Sexual content and Help:Sexual content and its talk page. But what we're talking about here is not content, but behavior, a sexist remark. Is that being discussed anywhere? Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 09:45, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way). Create a cruzade against that image would not change anything. And btw, take political, ideological or any other kind of ideas from a 5 words phrase requires much imagination. Is not better ask the person what he meant by that? Hi Beria, My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere, whatever was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind. So they are an important five words. Behind them lies a long and sorry tale of sexism and objectification of women, and people thinking it's okay to write and behave that way. Some of us on this list would like to see that culture change, bit by bit. Hard to know how to do that, and I take your point that it's not going to change by singling out these five words. On the other hand, if not these five words, which words? Change comes in tiny steps, each one perhaps insignificant in itself. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere, whatever was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind. Sarah So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior. The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who feel they are being treated unfairly. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere, whatever was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind. So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior. The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who feel they are being treated unfairly. I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the sense that the poster thought it appropriate to post it. Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do see a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass without comment simply means they'll never stop. We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of the content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In the course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made that tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she was, and how he wanted to have her babies. I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel) that I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something about me, rather than about them. I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I did say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather than screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about it. Not make a fuss. So that felt kind of depressing. Sarah Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate feedback effectively. A polite note fails. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
not that i know Fred. And behaivor will be very difficult to fill in a policy or guideline. but nothing prevent you from start a discussion about. Be bold ;) _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/ (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.* 2011/5/18 Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way). _ *Béria Lima* So where is that discussion? I found Commons:Sexual content and Help:Sexual content and its talk page. But what we're talking about here is not content, but behavior, a sexist remark. Is that being discussed anywhere? Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net I am sure the editor who said I like her big tits had that political message in mind. Andreas OK, Einstein, what is the psychological significance of a bare-breasted Liberty, as opposed to a modestly draped Liberty? It IS a revolutionary symbol. I am more interested in the psychological significance of the fact that Bunnyfrosch's user talk in German Wikipedia, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfrosch which his Commons talk page redirects to, features multiple contributors (including the editor who wrote the Featured Article on BDSM in German Wikipedia) requesting of him that he should please stop adding links to porn images to German Wikipedia articles. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfrosch#Links_auf_Pornobilder And more in that vein. I noticed that when I went to let him know, as a courtesy, that we were discussing his Support i like her big tits comment here. Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
On May 18, 2011, at 12:47 PM, Sarah wrote: I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on talk asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was and remain grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as a matter of courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter of courtesy. I wanted people to recognize that they were politically unacceptable. Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I really wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end. Eventually it did die down and a couple of other editors stepped in, and one of the earlier ones apologized, so it was okay. But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud. I've thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then people will cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments are suddenly not permitted, and who is to judge whether they're offensive, and will argue that not all women agree on definitions of sexism anyway. So it felt like too much of an uphill struggle even to begin it. This is the struggle of social justice issues on a wider scale, in many ways-- how can we address the -isms of the world in a way that enables processing and change to happen, versus pushing them further underground? In some ways, seeing terrible behavior is the unfortunate and painful reminder that there is work to be done... it's a balancing act that few have been able to pull off in the last couple decades, I feel. In any case, Sarah, I'm with you on this. You explain the challenges and frustrations well, in a way that I think represents how many previously-marginalized voices feel coming into these spaces. dz Actually one of those previously-marginalized voices is that of socially inept geeks who have little contact with women and are unaware that there is even an issue. They are clever little devils though and will learn quickly if they receive consistent feedback. We just need to make sure they get it. This: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfroschdiff=88991389oldid=88542780 is a good example of taking it home to them. Fred Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
