Re: [Gendergap] Pimp
Hi everyone, I'm sorry that my first post on the gender-gap list is a little mean. I'm a wikipedia-fr admin, active member of Wikimédia France chapter and a member of the OTRS team. Yet, since I've joined gender-gap a week early, I receive more mails from this list than all the other lists together. I'm also not a native English speaker, which means every mail takes me a little longer of my time. I thought the goal of this list was to discuss about women on wikimedia projects and how to attract new ones. I don't think it is useful to point out every single piece of sexism from en-wikipedia, in articles and discussion pages, for that. Or start http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap/en-wikipedia. I could point out sexism comments from fr-wikipedia every day, but I'm really not sure it is a constructive thing to do. To come back to Madam vs Pimp, I think you either should start the discussion there : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sexology_and_sexuality, or stop asking permission to create articles. If it bothers someone, she will ask for a fusion. Caroline (User:Léna) 2011/12/25 Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com Hi everyone, I'm doing a bit of fiddling with some articles related to sexuality and came across an article about a madam [[Polly Adler]]. The word madam was linked to [[pimp]]. While the article opens mentioning that a woman who runs a brothel is called a madam, it's an extremely male dominated article and focuses on the violent and sordid world of being a pimp, for lack of better words. I, frankly, would *love* to see madam have it's own article. Perhaps we should discuss it on the pimp page or just BE BOLD. (I don't have time to start a well fleshed out madam article, but, I'd be interested in perhaps collaborating with others to do it.) Thoughts? -Sarah -- Sarah Stierch Consulting -- Historical, cultural, new media artistic research advising. http://www.sarahstierch.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Pimp
*I must say, you are the first person to openly complain, and if others feel strongly about it I can cease sharing content that I think needs urgent help or peer review. * Well, I second Caroline. I already said this in Foundation-l but again: I don't think that delete pictures of Wikipe-tan, remove a vagina from the article with the same name or create a article for a female pimp (only to mention a few cases I remember now) are the way we will solve gender gap. So yes, please stop post this here, or use the wikiEN-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-lmailing list. And Sarah, this If you don't like you can sign the digest mode sounds rude to me, as if you are inviting her to leave. (I'm not a english native, but that is how appears to me) _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 17:03, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Caroline, I apologize if my occasional posting of an interesting article in English Wikipedia has been a burden, deterrent, or has went against the goal of this mailing list for you. Since I have joined, it has been something we have been doing, and the past month or so the list has been rather quiet compared to other times in the past. In the past, when we have shared articles of questionable matter, subject, sexism, or other issues, we've had great success of working together or independently to improve those articles, and often those improvements have been done by women who are on this list, which is very cool. I of course urge folks in any language to share content, however, with most Wikipedia mailing lists, systematic language bias does exist, as many are in English, though I know that was not the main point of your post. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll probably start out discussing it on the talk page of the article and also the project page. Again, I apologize if my own interests in article improvement in English Wikipedia have deterred or went against the mission of this mailing list. I must say, you are the first person to openly complain, and if others feel strongly about it I can cease sharing content that I think needs urgent help or peer review. As you did state, we could be pointing out issues of sexism all the time, however, sometimes I feel there are things of interest to the broader community, or something that might interest someone. (And while it has mainly been me lately, if you explore the history of the mailing list it's usually not just me flooding up your mailbox =) ) I also must add, my sharing of articles of interest and concern have wielded nothing but positive on.Wiki improvement of these subjects, which for me, means the closing of the gender gap in a different manner - one more subject area related to women or women's history which is covered in a more equal and respectful manner. We also offer, as you probably know, a digest mode, so, if this list is too busy for you (I think we are rather minimal these days, compared to lists such as internal-l and foundation-l) that might be something to consider. I'm glad you have joined and chosen to participate, and I am really sorry if my posts have been intruding. Sarah *Sarah Stierch* Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate todayhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/USutm_source=WMdonateutm_medium=sidebarutm_campaign=20110130SB003language=enuselang=encountry=USreferrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome On 12/25/11 5:59 AM, Caroline Becker wrote: Hi everyone, I'm sorry that my first post on the gender-gap list is a little mean. I'm a wikipedia-fr admin, active member of Wikimédia France chapter and a member of the OTRS team. Yet, since I've joined gender-gap a week early, I receive more mails from this list than all the other lists together. I'm also not a native English speaker, which means every mail takes me a little longer of my time. I thought the goal of this list was to discuss about women on wikimedia projects and how to attract new ones. I don't think it is useful to point out every single piece of sexism from en-wikipedia, in articles and discussion pages, for that. Or start http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap/en-wikipedia. I could point out sexism comments from fr-wikipedia every day, but I'm really not sure it is a constructive thing to do. To come back to Madam vs Pimp, I think you either should start the discussion there : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sexology_and_sexuality, or stop asking permission to create articles. If it bothers someone, she will ask for a fusion. Caroline (User:Léna) 2011/12/25 Sarah
Re: [Gendergap] Pimp
Beria - I never asked Caroline to leave the mailing list. I was merely making a suggestion. For example, when I became overwhelmed by the traffic on Foundation-L, I went to digest with it. A mere suggestion is not a request for anyone to leave. It's a shame that my posts have been so bothersome for the list, I never knew that I was only making things worse, or not helping at all. Sarah On 12/25/11 10:32 AM, Béria Lima wrote: /I must say, you are the first person to openly complain, and if others feel strongly about it I can cease sharing content that I think needs urgent help or peer review. / Well, I second Caroline. I already said this in Foundation-l but again: I don't think that delete pictures of Wikipe-tan, remove a vagina from the article with the same name or create a article for a female pimp (only to mention a few cases I remember now) are the way we will solve gender gap. So yes, please stop post this here, or use the wikiEN-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l mailing list. And Sarah, this If you don't like you can sign the digest mode sounds rude to me, as if you are inviting her to leave. (I'm not a english native, but that is how appears to me) _ /Béria Lima/ Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 /Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos/ On 25 December 2011 17:03, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com mailto:sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Caroline, I apologize if my occasional posting of an interesting article in English Wikipedia has been a burden, deterrent, or has went against the goal of this mailing list for you. Since I have joined, it has been something we have been doing, and the past month or so the list has been rather quiet compared to other times in the past. In the past, when we have shared articles of questionable matter, subject, sexism, or other issues, we've had great success of working together or independently to improve those articles, and often those improvements have been done by women who are on this list, which is very cool. I of course urge folks in any language to share content, however, with most Wikipedia mailing lists, systematic language bias does exist, as many are in English, though I know that was not the main point of your post. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll probably start out discussing it on the talk page of the article and also the project page. Again, I apologize if my own interests in article improvement in English Wikipedia have deterred or went against the mission of this mailing list. I must say, you are the first person to openly complain, and if others feel strongly about it I can cease sharing content that I think needs urgent help or peer review. As you did state, we could be pointing out issues of sexism all the time, however, sometimes I feel there are things of interest to the broader community, or something that might interest someone. (And while it has mainly been me lately, if you explore the history of the mailing list it's usually not just me flooding up your mailbox =) ) I also must add, my sharing of articles of interest and concern have wielded nothing but positive on.Wiki improvement of these subjects, which for me, means the closing of the gender gap in a different manner - one more subject area related to women or women's history which is covered in a more equal and respectful manner. We also offer, as you probably know, a digest mode, so, if this list is too busy for you (I think we are rather minimal these days, compared to lists such as internal-l and foundation-l) that might be something to consider. I'm glad you have joined and chosen to participate, and I am really sorry if my posts have been intruding. Sarah /Sarah Stierch/ Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate today http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/USutm_source=WMdonateutm_medium=sidebarutm_campaign=20110130SB003language=enuselang=encountry=USreferrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome On 12/25/11 5:59 AM, Caroline Becker wrote: Hi everyone, I'm sorry that my first post on the gender-gap list is a little mean. I'm a wikipedia-fr admin, active member of Wikimédia France chapter and a member of the OTRS team. Yet, since I've joined gender-gap a week early, I receive more mails from this list than all the other lists together. I'm also not a native English speaker, which means every mail takes me a little longer of my time. I thought the goal of this list was to discuss about women on wikimedia
[Gendergap] Global perspectives on women and Wikimedia projects: Bangladesh
In preparation for WikiWomenCamp and the sister conference open to people of all genders for discussing the gender gap (we'll get a name chosen and do a formal announcement soon!) , we're writing and asking for your assistance in writing about the involvement of and content related to women on Wikimedia projects from around the world. Today, we're looking at Bangladesh. If you can help improve this, please do. Many thanks to Tanvir, WM-BN's secretary, for providing insight into what is going on. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp/FAQ/Perspectives/Bangladesh [image: Flag of Bangladesh.svg] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh Bangladesh [image: people standing in a group wearing Wikipedia shirts]http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kite_flying2011_065.JPG http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kite_flying2011_065.JPG A Wikipedia 10th Birthday celebration in Bangladesh Bengali Wikimedia projects have very few female contributors. Those that they do have do not contribute on a consistent, regular basis; they edit sporadically. In Bangladesh, women often attend events by the Chapter and others in the country. There are female participants who attend every meet-up. Most of the time, these are new faces and there is a problem in getting the same women to consistently show up to events in order to build up a regular base of active female participants. Currently Wikimedia Bangladesh http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Bangladesh has no female members in the board. The board is planning to find a woman from the country to be a a Bengali participant in at WikiWomenCamp in Argentina. In December 2011, there were 1,700 women of all ages from Bangladesh who were interested in Wikipedia on Facebook.[1]https://www.facebook.com/ads/create/ 0.06% of all Wikipedia traffic comes from Bangladesh.[2]http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerCountryBreakdown.htm Most editors in Bangladesh edit the Bengali Wikipedia but 91.1% view English Wikipedia. There are many articles about Bengali actresses on the Bengali Wikipedia. These articles were mostly created by male contributors. There is an effort by a Bengali editor to take the Bengali language article about Angelina Joliehttp://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%85%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%9E%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%9C%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A6%BE_%E0%A6%9C%E0%A7%8B%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BF to Featured. As of December 2011, there are zero featured articles about women on Bengali Wikipedia. There are two articles about female sport people: an athlete and a chess player. There are 10 articles about female film actresses from Bangladeshhttp://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%B7%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BC%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A3%E0%A7%80:%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%82%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%80_%E0%A6%85%E0%A6%AD%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A4%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%80, 10 articles about female television actresses from Bangladesh, 3 articles about female Bangladeshi stage actresses and 13 articles about Bangladeshi singers. On Bengali Wikipedia, there are 4 articles about Bangladeshi social workershttp://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%B7%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BC%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A3%E0%A7%80:%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%82%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%80_%E0%A6%B8%E0%A6%AE%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%9C%E0%A6%95%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AE%E0%A7%80, 3 of whom women. The amount of women specific content in Bengali, and Bangaldeshi women content, is limited. The Bengali word for User is gender neutral; the name space does not indicate the gender of the user on Wikimedia projects. On English Wikipedia, there are 11 articleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bangladeshi_women_in_politics women in politics, 4 articleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bangladeshi_feminists about Bangladeshi feminists. There are 0 articles about women's basketball teamshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Category:Women%27s_basketball_teams in this country on English Wikipedia. There are 0 articles about women's basketball teamshttp://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Club_de_basket-ball_f%C3%A9minin in this country on French Wikipedia. There are 0 articles about women's basketball teamshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:%E5%A5%B3%E5%AD%90%E3%83%90%E3%82%B9%E3%82%B1%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%81%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0 in this country on Japanese Wikipedia. There are 0 articles about women's basketball teams in this country (he:קטגוריה:קבוצות כדורסל נשיםhttp://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94:%D7%A7%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%9B%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%9C_%D7%A0%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9D) on Hebrew Wikipedia. There are 0 articles about women's association football clubs in this country on Farsi Wikipedia (fa:رده:باشگاههای فوتبال زنان بر پایه
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnat...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: ... It's a shame that my posts have been so bothersome for the list, I never knew that I was only making things worse, or not helping at all. I, for one, do not find your posts bothersome. I find no problem with having one gender-neutral article for barbers and hairdressers or for pimps and madams, but I do find it better to have *two* good articles on the respective subjects. I agree. The point of Wikipedia/Wikimedia as a whole is to have high-quality articles, and any way we can do that, and do something about the gender bias in both projects, the better. I also understand Sarah's defenseness. It seems that content editors get the short end of the stick, to the point that many good editors leave. Keep up the good work, Sarah. Christine User:Figureskatingfan ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
*I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria.* Well Peter, when I come here (the day the list was created) the idea was to create a list to discuss HOW TO REDUCE GENDER GAP (in caps to make it more clear), that was the propose and that was the one I accepted. So far, I saw lots of discussions about en.wiki articles and images, and very little about the main objective of this list. I'm asking too much that we actually start discuss what we came here to discuss? I don't think so. _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 19:41, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Agreed. On Christmas (or any other day), I am thankful this list helps move things forward in a variety of ways, for a variety of different people. I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria. But glad to know your thoughts on pimp and madam sarah, and to see a suggested path to improving wikipedia content. I do enjoy that stuff the most. Collabotative encyclopedia writing is fucking awesome, and I love how everybody goes about it a little differently. Pete On Dec 25, 2011 11:25 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnat...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: ... It's a shame that my posts have been so bothersome for the list, I never knew that I was only making things worse, or not helping at all. I, for one, do not find your posts bothersome. I find no problem with having one gender-neutral article for barbers and hairdressers or for pimps and madams, but I do find it better to have *two* good articles on the respective subjects. Regards, Ole -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
Hi Beria, Yes, that is why I'm here as well. And I confess that right now, I do not have a grand theory of how to fix it all; but I'm glad to talk about, or work on, little ideas while the big ideas percolate. Beria, you and I have both been here for a long time, both on the Gender Gap list and on Wikimedia projects generally. And unless I'm missing something, I don't think either of us have offered up a plan of how to explore or reduce the gender gap. I agree with you that posts like Sarah's are probably not getting to the core of the gender gap issue (and I suspect she would agree) -- but personally, I don't think they do any harm, and I do think they help people on this list find opportunities to work together and begin to develop working relationships. But..that's beside the point. How about if you and I both make an effort to suggest issues this list could take on that would be useful? I would be very interested to hear how you would like to approach things, and I could probably manage to string together my thoughts in a useful way as well. What do you think? Let's propose some alternative, or additional, directions the discussion here might take. -Pete On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.ptwrote: *I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria.* Well Peter, when I come here (the day the list was created) the idea was to create a list to discuss HOW TO REDUCE GENDER GAP (in caps to make it more clear), that was the propose and that was the one I accepted. So far, I saw lots of discussions about en.wiki articles and images, and very little about the main objective of this list. I'm asking too much that we actually start discuss what we came here to discuss? I don't think so. _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 19:41, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Agreed. On Christmas (or any other day), I am thankful this list helps move things forward in a variety of ways, for a variety of different people. I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria. But glad to know your thoughts on pimp and madam sarah, and to see a suggested path to improving wikipedia content. I do enjoy that stuff the most. Collabotative encyclopedia writing is fucking awesome, and I love how everybody goes about it a little differently. Pete On Dec 25, 2011 11:25 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnat...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: ... It's a shame that my posts have been so bothersome for the list, I never knew that I was only making things worse, or not helping at all. I, for one, do not find your posts bothersome. I find no problem with having one gender-neutral article for barbers and hairdressers or for pimps and madams, but I do find it better to have *two* good articles on the respective subjects. Regards, Ole -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Global perspectives on women and Wikimedia projects: Bangladesh
that is a very interesting report. Thanks Laura for show it to us. (Tanvir fwed it to WMBD mailing list, so i suppose he also thinks is interesting :D) _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 19:47, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: In preparation for WikiWomenCamp and the sister conference open to people of all genders for discussing the gender gap (we'll get a name chosen and do a formal announcement soon!) , we're writing and asking for your assistance in writing about the involvement of and content related to women on Wikimedia projects from around the world. Today, we're looking at Bangladesh. If you can help improve this, please do. Many thanks to Tanvir, WM-BN's secretary, for providing insight into what is going on. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp/FAQ/Perspectives/Bangladesh [image: Flag of Bangladesh.svg] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh Bangladesh [image: people standing in a group wearing Wikipedia shirts]http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kite_flying2011_065.JPG http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kite_flying2011_065.JPG A Wikipedia 10th Birthday celebration in Bangladesh Bengali Wikimedia projects have very few female contributors. Those that they do have do not contribute on a consistent, regular basis; they edit sporadically. In Bangladesh, women often attend events by the Chapter and others in the country. There are female participants who attend every meet-up. Most of the time, these are new faces and there is a problem in getting the same women to consistently show up to events in order to build up a regular base of active female participants. Currently Wikimedia Bangladesh http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Bangladesh has no female members in the board. The board is planning to find a woman from the country to be a a Bengali participant in at WikiWomenCamp in Argentina. In December 2011, there were 1,700 women of all ages from Bangladesh who were interested in Wikipedia on Facebook.[1]https://www.facebook.com/ads/create/ 0.06% of all Wikipedia traffic comes from Bangladesh.[2]http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerCountryBreakdown.htm Most editors in Bangladesh edit the Bengali Wikipedia but 91.1% view English Wikipedia. There are many articles about Bengali actresses on the Bengali Wikipedia. These articles were mostly created by male contributors. There is an effort by a Bengali editor to take the Bengali language article about Angelina Joliehttp://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%85%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%9E%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%9C%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A6%BE_%E0%A6%9C%E0%A7%8B%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BF to Featured. As of December 2011, there are zero featured articles about women on Bengali Wikipedia. There are two articles about female sport people: an athlete and a chess player. There are 10 articles about female film actresses from Bangladeshhttp://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%B7%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BC%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A3%E0%A7%80:%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%82%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%80_%E0%A6%85%E0%A6%AD%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A4%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%80, 10 articles about female television actresses from Bangladesh, 3 articles about female Bangladeshi stage actresses and 13 articles about Bangladeshi singers. On Bengali Wikipedia, there are 4 articles about Bangladeshi social workershttp://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%B7%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BC%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A3%E0%A7%80:%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%82%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%80_%E0%A6%B8%E0%A6%AE%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%9C%E0%A6%95%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AE%E0%A7%80, 3 of whom women. The amount of women specific content in Bengali, and Bangaldeshi women content, is limited. The Bengali word for User is gender neutral; the name space does not indicate the gender of the user on Wikimedia projects. On English Wikipedia, there are 11 articleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bangladeshi_women_in_politics women in politics, 4 articleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bangladeshi_feminists about Bangladeshi feminists. There are 0 articles about women's basketball teamshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Category:Women%27s_basketball_teams in this country on English Wikipedia. There are 0 articles about women's basketball teamshttp://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Club_de_basket-ball_f%C3%A9minin in this country on French Wikipedia. There are 0 articles about women's basketball
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
To me, article differentials like this are one of the most interesting manifestations of the gender gap, and are worth talking about on this list. Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects, and that is a big deal. The gendergap would still be disturbing even if this weren't the case - but to me at least, the systemic underdevelopment of content is probably the single most worrisome issue involved. I conduct physical outreach about gendergap issues in the bay area on a regular basis - I think I have five talks/lectures/brownbags currently scheduled in the next month and a half. This sort of example is great, because it helps people understand why Wikimedia's massive demographic gaps are a serious problem. Obviously a single example can't prove a systemic problem, but using concrete examples makes the issue much more real to some people than just saying According to researchers at NYU, we're XX% more likely to be missing important biographies of women than Britannica is. I usually mention the hairdresser/barber example, and it's probably been more effective at generating interest than any other single thing I've mentioned - at this point I'm getting emails from people I've never met who want to get involved after having had that example relayed to them by people who I have talked to. So, thanks Sarah, this specific example will work itself in to a talk in the near future :) Kevin Gorman User:Kgorman-ucb ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Beria, Beria, you and I have both been here for a long time, both on the Gender Gap list and on Wikimedia projects generally. And unless I'm missing something, I don't think either of us have offered up a plan of how to explore or reduce the gender gap. I agree with you that posts like Sarah's are probably not getting to the core of the gender gap issue (and I suspect she would agree) -- but personally, I don't think they do any harm, and I do think they help people on this list find opportunities to work together and begin to develop working relationships. But..that's beside the point. How about if you and I both make an effort to suggest issues this list could take on that would be useful? I would be very interested to hear how you would like to approach things, and I could probably manage to string together my thoughts in a useful way as well. What do you think? Let's propose some alternative, or additional, directions the discussion here might take. Several women involved with chapter leadership are helping to organise two conferences: One for women's leadership in the WMF movement, one for the gender gap. That's a major, major accomplishment. These both be firsts of their kind and demonstrate leadership from women. The list has been fantastic in some ways in terms of inspiring the creation of both. I'd love to see more discussion about these topics, and solutions for how to support women in leadership positions around the globe. It would be fantastic if some of the members here could help promote the women's leadership conference (which is not about increasing female editing) at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp . :) By supporting women, by helping attract women to leadership positions, we should hopefully improve the situation down the line. That's one of the beautiful things about femocracy. :) It would also be fantastic to draw more attention to these women who are successful, determine how we can support them, continue to support them. This list is often focused on American women on English Wikipedia to the exclusion of all else. Let's really work on celebrating women around the globe. There is a Hungarian woman who has done hugely awesome things for Wikimedia Hungary. There is another woman from Asia who helped her chapter get a million dollar grant. There is a Dutch woman who helped organise GLAM Camp. Norway's involvement with Wiki Loves Monuments owes a lot to a few female members. Argentina has four women on their Chapter board. Italy has several women who do high level GLAM work and coordinate projects across multiple countries. Before we go much further though, I think we do need to document what the status of the gender gap is. Can you help improve http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp/FAQ/Perspectives those perspectives? I don't think you can begin to fix the problem unless you know what it is. This is an important first step in terms of beginning to understand the scope of the problem. -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
Is kinda funny that you ask what I'm doing, Peter. Sounds like unless I'm being paid for WMF to deal with Gender Gap I shouldn't have a voice, and shut the f*** up. But anyway You wanna know what I'm doing? I tell you: I'm organizing not one, but 2 conferences with focus in the women in this movement. The first one is the - already announced here - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp and the second (1 day after this one) is a Gender Gap specify conference who will happens in the same place and city (more about this one soon). I also already made a presentation about Gender Gap to an event in India: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gender_Gap_in_Wikimedia_projects.pdf Now I'm qualified to talk? _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 20:04, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Beria, Yes, that is why I'm here as well. And I confess that right now, I do not have a grand theory of how to fix it all; but I'm glad to talk about, or work on, little ideas while the big ideas percolate. Beria, you and I have both been here for a long time, both on the Gender Gap list and on Wikimedia projects generally. And unless I'm missing something, I don't think either of us have offered up a plan of how to explore or reduce the gender gap. I agree with you that posts like Sarah's are probably not getting to the core of the gender gap issue (and I suspect she would agree) -- but personally, I don't think they do any harm, and I do think they help people on this list find opportunities to work together and begin to develop working relationships. But..that's beside the point. How about if you and I both make an effort to suggest issues this list could take on that would be useful? I would be very interested to hear how you would like to approach things, and I could probably manage to string together my thoughts in a useful way as well. What do you think? Let's propose some alternative, or additional, directions the discussion here might take. -Pete On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.ptwrote: *I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria.* Well Peter, when I come here (the day the list was created) the idea was to create a list to discuss HOW TO REDUCE GENDER GAP (in caps to make it more clear), that was the propose and that was the one I accepted. So far, I saw lots of discussions about en.wiki articles and images, and very little about the main objective of this list. I'm asking too much that we actually start discuss what we came here to discuss? I don't think so. _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 19:41, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Agreed. On Christmas (or any other day), I am thankful this list helps move things forward in a variety of ways, for a variety of different people. I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria. But glad to know your thoughts on pimp and madam sarah, and to see a suggested path to improving wikipedia content. I do enjoy that stuff the most. Collabotative encyclopedia writing is fucking awesome, and I love how everybody goes about it a little differently. Pete On Dec 25, 2011 11:25 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnat...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: ... It's a shame that my posts have been so bothersome for the list, I never knew that I was only making things worse, or not helping at all. I, for one, do not find your posts bothersome. I find no problem with having one gender-neutral article for barbers and hairdressers or for pimps and madams, but I do find it better to have *two* good articles on the respective subjects. Regards, Ole -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 8:00 AM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:04, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Laura, the entirety of your email is spot on list and I just want to thank you for your clarity on this matter and for demonstrating what this list could really be discussing. By focusing on supporting women in, and into, leadership positions we recognise the exponential potential for greater numbers of women to be involved, to be active, in the global movement - and when encouraging female participation we can learn to realise we don't need to tell them what to do, what to edit, but simply help open up the pathways to everything. By way of example, a major political party in Australia has a grassroots organisastion (a structurally integrated significant organisation) called 'Emily's List' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMILY%27s_List_Australia, itself inspired by a USA model. Now I'm not here espousing 'what women want' is best served by an Australian or a American model of pro-active involvement in championing women's involvement, because I have no doubt there is also mirror-organisations throughout the northern and southern hemispheres. I'm simply explaining that which I know about at the same time realising the limitations of my knowledge. The significance to Wikimedia of this type of women's model for organising, is that it focuses it's efforts on not only increasing female participation but on training them into positions of leadership; that is, training females on what, and how, and about, all aspects of the movement. When a female has the knowledge they can do. Anne - Original Message - From: Laura Hale To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp) On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Beria, Beria, you and I have both been here for a long time, both on the Gender Gap list and on Wikimedia projects generally. And unless I'm missing something, I don't think either of us have offered up a plan of how to explore or reduce the gender gap. I agree with you that posts like Sarah's are probably not getting to the core of the gender gap issue (and I suspect she would agree) -- but personally, I don't think they do any harm, and I do think they help people on this list find opportunities to work together and begin to develop working relationships. But..that's beside the point. How about if you and I both make an effort to suggest issues this list could take on that would be useful? I would be very interested to hear how you would like to approach things, and I could probably manage to string together my thoughts in a useful way as well. What do you think? Let's propose some alternative, or additional, directions the discussion here might take. Several women involved with chapter leadership are helping to organise two conferences: One for women's leadership in the WMF movement, one for the gender gap. That's a major, major accomplishment. These both be firsts of their kind and demonstrate leadership from women. The list has been fantastic in some ways in terms of inspiring the creation of both. I'd love to see more discussion about these topics, and solutions for how to support women in leadership positions around the globe. It would be fantastic if some of the members here could help promote the women's leadership conference (which is not about increasing female editing) at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp . :) By supporting women, by helping attract women to leadership positions, we should hopefully improve the situation down the line. That's one of the beautiful things about femocracy. :) It would also be fantastic to draw more attention to these women who are successful, determine how we can support them, continue to support them. This list is often focused on American women on English Wikipedia to the exclusion of all else. Let's really work on celebrating women around the globe. There is a Hungarian woman who has done hugely awesome things for Wikimedia Hungary. There is another woman from Asia who helped her chapter get a million dollar grant. There is a Dutch woman who helped organise GLAM Camp. Norway's involvement with Wiki Loves Monuments owes a lot to a few female members. Argentina has four women on their Chapter board. Italy has several women who do high level GLAM work and coordinate projects across multiple countries. Before we go much further though, I think we do need to document what the status of the gender gap is. Can you help improve http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp/FAQ/Perspectives those perspectives? I don't think you can begin to fix the problem unless you know what it is. This is an important first step in terms of beginning to understand the
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Ms. Anne Frazer fraz...@bigpond.comwrote: ** Laura, the entirety of your email is spot on list and I just want to thank you for your clarity on this matter and for demonstrating what this list could really be discussing. By focusing on supporting women in, and into, leadership positions we recognise the exponential potential for greater numbers of women to be involved, to be active, in the global movement - and when encouraging female participation we can learn to realise we don't need to tell them what to do, what to edit, but simply help open up the pathways to everything. Thank you for the kind words. :) And yes, supporting women in leadership is extremely important. They will bring other women with them. They have unique networks that we might not be able to reach otherwise. They often understand local cultures better, or know people who can do things. I'm simply explaining that which I know about at the same time realising the limitations of my knowledge. The significance to Wikimedia of this type of women's model for organising, is that it focuses it's efforts on not only increasing female participation but on training them into positions of leadership; that is, training females on what, and how, and about, all aspects of the movement. When a female has the knowledge they can do. Opportunities for leadership are probably a great motivational tool to get women involved, especially if they have a built in support structure to help them with their activities. I don't know if such a structure currently exists now on a wider level, or if it is dependent on chapters to do good work and be inclusive and for leaders in individual chapters to make sure that women make connections to allow them to lead. I suspect what happens now is we try to recruit people, get a few women who are self motivated and they are left to fend for themselves in terms of developing these networks to help them. And these networks are fundamental to success. Why do feel like I've been so successful with my GLAM work? Because I had a few existing GLAM people who were tremendously supportive of me. Why have I felt so successful recently inside my chapter? Because there are women I can turn to and ask for help. Can I and do I get this same support from men? Yes, and I'm grateful to them. I love working with them… (Australia has had a number of men work on our perspective page. Fantastic and I love it!) but I feel like there is something special about working with other women. Providing a support network, going out and developing our female leaders, encouraging them to be involved is key to not just fixing the gender gap but to increasing participation over all around the globe. If we're looking for a solution, I think this is the first one we should be looking at: How do provide support to women in a global context to support their already good work? How do we find and nurture additional female leaders? -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
Again, you raise important questions addressing how we can find and nurture women in the global context. I also appreciate your positive comments about the men in Australia in the wikimedia movement. In the Australian Chapter men and women have traditionally worked side by side in our endeavours to support and grow our mission. In particular the men and women who have and continue to make up the committee, operate in an egalitarian manner, and the male leadership continually demonstrates and shows appreciation for an awareness of women's involvement in the projects and the running of the Chapter, as do the women for the men. So I guess we are lucky in the knowledge that it is to a large degree the Australian way of doing things. We are however, both the men and the women, aware of the need to support and take action for improvements across the board and the global movement. Thanks, Anne On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 1:19 PM Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Laura Hale To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp) On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Ms. Anne Frazer fraz...@bigpond.com wrote: Laura, the entirety of your email is spot on list and I just want to thank you for your clarity on this matter and for demonstrating what this list could really be discussing. By focusing on supporting women in, and into, leadership positions we recognise the exponential potential for greater numbers of women to be involved, to be active, in the global movement - and when encouraging female participation we can learn to realise we don't need to tell them what to do, what to edit, but simply help open up the pathways to everything. Thank you for the kind words. :) And yes, supporting women in leadership is extremely important. They will bring other women with them. They have unique networks that we might not be able to reach otherwise. They often understand local cultures better, or know people who can do things. I'm simply explaining that which I know about at the same time realising the limitations of my knowledge. The significance to Wikimedia of this type of women's model for organising, is that it focuses it's efforts on not only increasing female participation but on training them into positions of leadership; that is, training females on what, and how, and about, all aspects of the movement. When a female has the knowledge they can do. Opportunities for leadership are probably a great motivational tool to get women involved, especially if they have a built in support structure to help them with their activities. I don't know if such a structure currently exists now on a wider level, or if it is dependent on chapters to do good work and be inclusive and for leaders in individual chapters to make sure that women make connections to allow them to lead. I suspect what happens now is we try to recruit people, get a few women who are self motivated and they are left to fend for themselves in terms of developing these networks to help them. And these networks are fundamental to success. Why do feel like I've been so successful with my GLAM work? Because I had a few existing GLAM people who were tremendously supportive of me. Why have I felt so successful recently inside my chapter? Because there are women I can turn to and ask for help. Can I and do I get this same support from men? Yes, and I'm grateful to them. I love working with them… (Australia has had a number of men work on our perspective page. Fantastic and I love it!) but I feel like there is something special about working with other women. Providing a support network, going out and developing our female leaders, encouraging them to be involved is key to not just fixing the gender gap but to increasing participation over all around the globe. If we're looking for a solution, I think this is the first one we should be looking at: How do provide support to women in a global context to support their already good work? How do we find and nurture additional female leaders? -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com -- ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Bothersome? (Re: Pimp)
Beria, It looks like we misunderstood each other pretty badly -- sorry if I didn't express myself clearly. I'm genuinely interested in the kind of strategy people on this list believe would improve gender-related issues. That includes you. Thanks for the reminder about the conference you're planning. I'm aware of it, and am glad it's happening. My question (which was meant as an invitation, not a challenge) is about your general thinking around the conference. What is your theory about how to improve gender-related issues in the Wikimedia world? (and how will things like this conference fit into that thinking?) I'm not saying that I know the right theory (though I suppose I have some ideas); when you reacted strongly against a specific approach earlier in this thread, it made me wonder what your general thinking is, and what kinds of tactics you *would* like to see. If you'd like to share that, please consider this an invitation. I'm not sure where the part about Wikimedia staff comes in. I'm not a WMF employee, and haven't been for nearly a year; but even if I were, I don't think it has anything to do with who gets to talk about what. As far as I'm concerned, this list is not a WMF-specific space. -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] on English Wikipedia etc. On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: Is kinda funny that you ask what I'm doing, Peter. Sounds like unless I'm being paid for WMF to deal with Gender Gap I shouldn't have a voice, and shut the f*** up. But anyway You wanna know what I'm doing? I tell you: I'm organizing not one, but 2 conferences with focus in the women in this movement. The first one is the - already announced here - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomenCamp and the second (1 day after this one) is a Gender Gap specify conference who will happens in the same place and city (more about this one soon). I also already made a presentation about Gender Gap to an event in India: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gender_Gap_in_Wikimedia_projects.pdf Now I'm qualified to talk? _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 20:04, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Beria, Yes, that is why I'm here as well. And I confess that right now, I do not have a grand theory of how to fix it all; but I'm glad to talk about, or work on, little ideas while the big ideas percolate. Beria, you and I have both been here for a long time, both on the Gender Gap list and on Wikimedia projects generally. And unless I'm missing something, I don't think either of us have offered up a plan of how to explore or reduce the gender gap. I agree with you that posts like Sarah's are probably not getting to the core of the gender gap issue (and I suspect she would agree) -- but personally, I don't think they do any harm, and I do think they help people on this list find opportunities to work together and begin to develop working relationships. But..that's beside the point. How about if you and I both make an effort to suggest issues this list could take on that would be useful? I would be very interested to hear how you would like to approach things, and I could probably manage to string together my thoughts in a useful way as well. What do you think? Let's propose some alternative, or additional, directions the discussion here might take. -Pete On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.ptwrote: *I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria.* Well Peter, when I come here (the day the list was created) the idea was to create a list to discuss HOW TO REDUCE GENDER GAP (in caps to make it more clear), that was the propose and that was the one I accepted. So far, I saw lots of discussions about en.wiki articles and images, and very little about the main objective of this list. I'm asking too much that we actually start discuss what we came here to discuss? I don't think so. _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 25 December 2011 19:41, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Agreed. On Christmas (or any other day), I am thankful this list helps move things forward in a variety of ways, for a variety of different people. I'm looking forward to hearing what Caroline would like to discuss, or Beria. But glad to know your thoughts on pimp and madam sarah, and to see a suggested path to improving wikipedia content. I do enjoy that stuff the most. Collabotative
