Re: [Gendergap] A reason to celebrate

[Valerie Aurora]

I find this email, like many others of Shlomi's, to be creepy and inappropriate.

-VAL

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 5:08 AM, Shlomi Fish  wrote:
> Hi Christine,
>
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 22:16:17 -0700
> Christine Meyer  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Yes, I'm responsible for the Angelou article.  I must say, when I saw the
>> view counts in the Signpost, I was overwhelmed and honored that for my part
>> in bringing Dr. Angelou's bio article, as well as all seven of her
>> autobiographies, the list of her works, and articles about her poetry and
>> themes in her autobiographies, all to FA status.  I also feel proud that
>> the English WP honored this great artist with high-quality articles when
>> the world most needed them.
>>
>
> Many thanks for your work on it. Here's a photo of a kitten whom I found very
> cute as a token of my appreciation:
>
> * http://imgur.com/NmQOgTH
>
> Love you (♥)!
>
> Regards,
>
> Shlomi Fish
>
> --
> -
> Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
>
> I feel much better, now that I’ve given up hope.
> — Ashleigh Brilliant
>
> Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap



-- 
Valerie Aurora
Executive Director

You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and culture!
Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/

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Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale

[Valerie Aurora]

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Moriel Schottlender  wrote:
> Did this really just happen?
>
> Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating
> as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the
> cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly --
> and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about?
> Did I misunderstand your email?
>
>
> We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem
> differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed
> and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's
> not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens
> (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and
> how to make sure it is getting better.
>
>
> Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this
> mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in:
>
> In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back.

Can we get this in the footer of every email? Or a link to:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Statement_of_purpose:_communities_including_men

Then these threads can be one reply with a pointer to the link. :)

-VAL

> That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But
> they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so
> unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should
> take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound
> like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or
> generalizations.
>
> The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot
> less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the
> rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions.
>
> And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like
> they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and
> feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual
> experience.
>
>
> Moriel
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott
>  wrote:
>>
>> >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34:
>> >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email
>> >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started
>> >> hassling them about it.
>> >> SURPRISE!!
>> >
>> > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading
>> > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal
>> > women.
>> >
>> > Nemo
>>
>> Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this
>> discussion is
>> going.  Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all
>> here?
>>
>> From the Mailing list signup page:
>> "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation
>> of
>> women within Wikimedia projects.
>>
>> Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in
>> Wikipedia
>> and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is
>> provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to
>> collectively
>> address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are
>> focused
>> on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a
>> starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of
>> women
>> and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia,
>> Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage
>> you
>> to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this
>> regard matter to us and to the community."
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Derric Atzrott
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
>
>
> --
> No trees were harmed in the creation of this post.
> But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly
> inconvenienced during its transmission!
>
> ___
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> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



-- 
Valerie Aurora
Executive Director

You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and culture!
Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/

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Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale

[Kevin Gorman]

Hi all -

Although this thread has gone pretty far from perfectly as a whole, it has
comforted me to see a number of people contribute to the thread who haven't
been active on this list in quite a while.  I'm going to send out a couple
separate emails apart from this - but would like to thank the contributors
who have popped in to this thread to post their thoughts who have been
inactive for some period of time.  I can't guarantee I will be able to
consistently do so, but will make a stronger effort to keep up on
gendergap-l traffic going forward, and also to try to help ensure that any
obstacles that currently discourage women from participating in this list
are mitigated, moderated, or if push comes to shove, removed from this
individual community at least.

Best,
Kevin Gorman


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:09 AM, Marie Earley  wrote:

> Apologies for long post but, as another example of external pressure often
> being able to get to do more than internal, I'd like to relate the
> following experience.
>
>
> In October 2008 I joined TriggerStreet.com (now Trigger Street Labs
> ). It is a website set up by Kevin Spacey
> and his business partner Dana Brunetti, their film production company made 
> *The
> Social Network* and *Captain Phillips*.
>
> The idea of the website is for members to read each others screenplays /
> short stories, watch each other's short films and give feedback. You earn
> credits for reviewing material and spend them on adding your own material
> to the site, you can also add additional credits to 'push' your work nearer
> to the top of the pile waiting to be reviewed.
>
> The website also has discussion forums, I was shocked, not only by the
> comments on display but also by the attitude of moderators. In one early
> exchange the word 'fa**ots' was used to describe gay people, the thread was
> locked but no action was taken against the perpetrator. I e-mailed the
> moderator asking why, he wrote back to me saying, "As a gay man myself I am
> sympathetic to your comments," (I hadn't known he was gay until he replied)
> "but as a moderator, I have now locked the thread and it will now slide
> down the boards."
>
> Discussing the policy on how the site was run on the boards was a complete
> NO-NO, there was just a general rule about 'not feeding trolls'. Another
> thread I was involved with concerned a discussion about Julian Assange
> there was lively discussion as to whether he was a hero or a villain, but
> it was civil. Out of nowhere there was a comment, "Why can't we get back to
> talking about porn and masturbation." Everyone ignored this, the
> conversation went on, there were two further attempts by the same poster
> asking the same thing, he then began his own thread entitled the "Porn and
> masturbation thread." Not only was nothing done, in a (very, very naughty)
> thread suggesting more ought to be done to prevent such behaviour, Dana
> Brunetti in particular stated that he didn't want the site to become
> "sanitized" and he didn't want it to turn into Orwell's *1984* - to an
> approving chorus of "Dana's right" from other members.
>
> Just like Wikipedia there is no way of blocking other users, and, again
> like Wikipedia, the nature of what the website was set up to do may mean
> that it is impractical. It was all compounded for me by the "screenplay of
> the month" feature where the winner was displayed on the home page (since
> replaced by "featured short film", "featured short story" and "featured
> screenplay"). I watched winners include Mr. "fa**ots" and, another month,
> Mr. "porn and masturbation thread". The name of the screenplay of the month
> winner and their avatar were also displayed, this prompted one winner to
> change his avatar to two women in bikinis kissing. Cue a congratulatory
> thread to the male writer in his early 20s plus a side helping of "nice
> avatar btw." One bigot had his screenplay optioned by a studio - so much
> for ignoring trolls.
>
> The website also had an industry podcast each week usually featuring Dana
> and Vice-President of Trigger Street, Carter Swan. One week they said that
> there were going to be big changes including revamping the website, and
> anyone who didn't like the new changes could "f*** off". One of the changes
> was to get rid of the plays section (and with it all the credits I had
> gathered). One of the other changes was to have a lot more podcasts from a
> purpose built studio. A fashion podcast, a music podcast, one for comic
> enthusiasts and one featuring the porn star Kayden Kross, reviewing a
> different film each week.
>
> I complained (by e-mail - no dissent allowed on the forums remember), I
> was ignored, so then I tried a different tactic. I wrote to various groups
> dealing with domestic violence that were based in Southwark, London (home
> of the Old Vic where Spacey is the Artistic Director), asking them to lobby
> Kevin Spacey at the Old Vic. I also wrote to all the 

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Kevin Gorman]

Hi all -

Speaking as one of the list moderators, I unfortunately don't always have
time to proactively reach out to problematic members, or even to read all
list traffic on a timely basis at all times.  (For instance, because I'm in
the process of setting up a new house - I haven't read the thread that this
thread is about fully, although I intend to do so shortly.)  I would like
to state that I agree with Val's last email (and thank you, Val, for
sending it out.)  If there is a problematic situation that the list
moderators have missed (which are currently me, Sue Gardner - who tends to
be busy enough to not be an active moderator, and Liz Kent,) I would
encourage anyone concerned about it to bring it to our direct attention by
emailing one of us individually, or by emailing
gendergap-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org, which will email all three of us.  If
you are interested in becoming a moderator, I'd also invite you to email us
- unfortunately, since Cynthia passed, we're down one moderator from where
we normally are.

I can't speak of the moderation of other lists, but from memory, this list
has had around four people removed or moderated for making misogynistic
comments, one person removed for the combination of making anti-male
comments and generally problematic behavior (the person in question, after
being called out on their original comments, spammed the list moderators
with seven or eight completely profanity filled emails,) two people removed
for general assholery/generally disruptive behavior, and a number of other
people warned privately who subsequently improved their behavior.  Of the
people who have been removed or moderated, probably three of them have
involved proactive action taken by the list mods, and the rest have been
pointed out to us at times when we were ourselves not keeping up with all
list traffic.  We're the most proactively moderated Wikimedia list as far
as I know, but given the special nature of this list, I think all of us
would be more than open to moderating more aggressively.

I'll try to pay more attention to this list than I have been over the last
few months, and will try to take a more proactive moderation stance.  At
the same time, if I do miss someone's problematic behavior, I'd encourage a
list member to point it out to me (or another mod) and not assume that I
don't consider the behavior problematic.  An overwhelming majority of the
time, I'll agree that the behavior is problematic once it's pointed out to
me - I probably just hadn't seen it yet because I often run low enough on
spoons to be unable to keep up with listserv traffic in real time.

Anyway... afk to go read the thread that started this thread.

Best,
Kevin Gorman


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Valerie Aurora 
wrote:

> Hi Derric,
>
> This list is not for the purpose of improving people's communication
> skills. If you would like to help women in Wikimedia projects and you
> know that you have difficulty communicating without offending people,
> working on your communication skills in another venue is a good first
> step. A good second step is to search the internet for resources on
> ally skills.
>
> To be crystal clear: you will not be helping women in Wikipedia by
> continuing to ask for help from anyone on this list or centering
> yourself in the discussion.
>
> -VAL
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Derric Atzrott
>  wrote:
> > Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of
> meta thread for what just happened?  I have further questions and things to
> explain and get feedback on.  I can start another thread if wanted.
> >
> > This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on
> Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.
>  Like there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but
> apparently I am just really awful at not coming off that way via email.
>  I'd like to work on that and also find out what sort of things men on this
> list can do to make the environment better are and in specific myself.  I
> think a polite discussion of what just happened would help advance all of
> those goals.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Derric Atzrott
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
>
> --
> Valerie Aurora
> Executive Director
>
> You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and
> culture!
> Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Valerie Aurora]

Hi Derric,

This list is not for the purpose of improving people's communication
skills. If you would like to help women in Wikimedia projects and you
know that you have difficulty communicating without offending people,
working on your communication skills in another venue is a good first
step. A good second step is to search the internet for resources on
ally skills.

To be crystal clear: you will not be helping women in Wikipedia by
continuing to ask for help from anyone on this list or centering
yourself in the discussion.

-VAL

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Derric Atzrott
 wrote:
> Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of meta 
> thread for what just happened?  I have further questions and things to 
> explain and get feedback on.  I can start another thread if wanted.
>
> This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on 
> Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.  Like 
> there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but apparently I 
> am just really awful at not coming off that way via email.  I'd like to work 
> on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list can do to make 
> the environment better are and in specific myself.  I think a polite 
> discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those goals.
>
> Thank you,
> Derric Atzrott
>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap



-- 
Valerie Aurora
Executive Director

You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and culture!
Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale

[Marie Earley]

Apologies for long post but, as another example of external pressure often 
being able to get to do more than internal, I'd like to relate the following 
experience.


In October 2008 I joined TriggerStreet.com (now Trigger Street Labs). It is a 
website set up by Kevin Spacey and his business partner Dana Brunetti, their 
film production company made The Social Network and Captain Phillips. 

The idea of the website is for members to read each others screenplays / short 
stories, watch each other's short films and give feedback. You earn credits for 
reviewing material and spend them on adding your own material to the site, you 
can also add additional credits to 'push' your work nearer to the top of the 
pile waiting to be reviewed. 

The website also has discussion forums, I was shocked, not only by the comments 
on display but also by the attitude of moderators. In one early exchange the 
word 'fa**ots' was used to describe gay people, the thread was locked but no 
action was taken against the perpetrator. I e-mailed the moderator asking why, 
he wrote back to me saying, "As a gay man myself I am sympathetic to your 
comments," (I hadn't known he was gay until he replied) "but as a moderator, I 
have now locked the thread and it will now slide down the boards."

Discussing the policy on how the site was run on the boards was a complete 
NO-NO, there was just a general rule about 'not feeding trolls'. Another thread 
I was involved with concerned a discussion about Julian Assange there was 
lively discussion as to whether he was a hero or a villain, but it was civil. 
Out of nowhere there was a comment, "Why can't we get back to talking about 
porn and masturbation." Everyone ignored this, the conversation went on, there 
were two further attempts by the same poster asking the same thing, he then 
began his own thread entitled the "Porn and masturbation thread." Not only was 
nothing done, in a (very, very naughty) thread suggesting more ought to be done 
to prevent such behaviour, Dana Brunetti in particular stated that he didn't 
want the site to become "sanitized" and he didn't want it to turn into Orwell's 
1984 - to an approving chorus of "Dana's right" from other members. 

Just like Wikipedia there is no way of blocking other users, and, again like 
Wikipedia, the nature of what the website was set up to do may mean that it is 
impractical. It was all compounded for me by the "screenplay of the month" 
feature where the winner was displayed on the home page (since replaced by 
"featured short film", "featured short story" and "featured screenplay"). I 
watched winners include Mr. "fa**ots" and, another month, Mr. "porn and 
masturbation thread". The name of the screenplay of the month winner and their 
avatar were also displayed, this prompted one winner to change his avatar to 
two women in bikinis kissing. Cue a congratulatory thread to the male writer in 
his early 20s plus a side helping of "nice avatar btw." One bigot had his 
screenplay optioned by a studio - so much for ignoring trolls.

The website also had an industry podcast each week usually featuring Dana and 
Vice-President of Trigger Street, Carter Swan. One week they said that there 
were going to be big changes including revamping the website, and anyone who 
didn't like the new changes could "f*** off". One of the changes was to get rid 
of the plays section (and with it all the credits I had gathered). One of the 
other changes was to have a lot more podcasts from a purpose built studio. A 
fashion podcast, a music podcast, one for comic enthusiasts and one featuring 
the porn star Kayden Kross, reviewing a different film each week. 

I complained (by e-mail - no dissent allowed on the forums remember), I was 
ignored, so then I tried a different tactic. I wrote to various groups dealing 
with domestic violence that were based in Southwark, London (home of the Old 
Vic where Spacey is the Artistic Director), asking them to lobby Kevin Spacey 
at the Old Vic. I also wrote to all the e-mail addresses within the Old Vic 
that I could find. It worked the other podcasts continued but the ones by 
Kayden Kross stopped.

The rules about using the website also changed, including the following new 
statement: "While using the Site or Services, you agree not to: Transmit any 
content or information that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, 
harassing, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, hateful, fraudulent or 
otherwise objectionable content, or infringes on our or any third party's 
intellectual property or other rights."

I have no idea how much of that (if any) was because down to what I did. I have 
also no idea how rigorously the new rules were / are enforced, they got rid of 
me around the same time as Kross. My account, not deleted, just suspended where 
it has remained since August 2011, no explanation given and no indication as to 
if / when it will be reinstated - if they read this it will probably 

The film - 50 Shad