Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/5/2015 11:56 PM, Risker wrote:



On 5 October 2015 at 23:30, Carol Moore dc mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

On 10/5/2015 10:11 PM, rupert THURNER wrote:
what do you

think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html
? or you think this is completely off ?

rupert


Anger management is always a good idea. As long as it is not applied
with a double standard - which it usually is.



Please.  Can we have some assumptions of good faith?  Rupert is trying
to reach out.

RIsker


Given the accusatory title of this thread (I see no quotation marks), I 
would like to think some women were a bit annoyed. However, no women 
besides myself and now you responded at all. (I just noticed now the 
thread was started by Rupert.)


Reaching out is great. As long as it is to all parties to a harassment 
situation (past/present/future) so it doesn't seem/look/feel like only 
those who are being harassed have an anger problem. I think that would 
counter the purpose of this list. Don't you?


CM

CM

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Risker]

On 5 October 2015 at 23:30, Carol Moore dc  wrote:

> On 10/5/2015 10:11 PM, rupert THURNER wrote:
> what do you
>
>> think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html
>> ? or you think this is completely off ?
>>
>> rupert
>>
>
> Anger management is always a good idea. As long as it is not applied with
> a double standard - which it usually is.
>
>

Please.  Can we have some assumptions of good faith?  Rupert is trying to
reach out.

RIsker
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/5/2015 10:11 PM, rupert THURNER wrote:
what do you

think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html
? or you think this is completely off ?

rupert


Anger management is always a good idea. As long as it is not applied 
with a double standard - which it usually is.



___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[rupert THURNER]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM, Carol Moore dc  wrote:
>
>
> On 10/4/2015 5:59 AM, Robert Williams wrote:
>>
>> Well, what I'd like to say is that some of these arguments do make
>> sense. While men shouldn't get over-sensitive over perceived
>> "harassment" of them, neither should women just whine about
>> harassment.--Eat me, I'm an azuki
>
>
> The problem is is the double standard where women's actions are more easily
> perceived as uncivil and/or harassment and their complaints about
> incivility/harassment are labeled whining or even harassment.
>
> I got banned from Wikipedia for merely defending myself against constant
> harassment on the Gender Gap talk page and losing my temper a few times in
> Arbitration because of the massive harassment there by people I didn't even
> know.
>
> The guy who got Ibanned from me for harassment got NO other warning or
> sanction about it during arbitration. The guy who started a harassing
> article about me only got a warning.
>
> Only two of the several guys who worked together to harass and sabotage the
> talk page got warnings about it.
>
> By the way, "eat me, I'm an azuki" doesn't sound like a friendly message.
> Must I really do an internet search of the meaning of the term azuki?

i now saw the ban here:
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions_at_GGTF#Carolmooredc_banned
and i read that you lost your temper a couple of times. what do you
think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html
? or you think this is completely off ?

rupert

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Meeting at the Wikiconference?

[Jami Mathewson]

Francesca,

Do you have a space where those who are interested can sign on to meet for
lunch/get details about where you're meeting?

Jami

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Sydney Poore 
wrote:

> Looking forward to seeing you there.
> On Oct 5, 2015 8:00 PM, "Francesca Tripodi"  wrote:
>
>> Hello list members!
>>
>> I am not sure if any of you are planning on attending the upcoming
>> conference in DC but it would be wonderful we we could organize a meet up
>> for those who might be coming. In taking a look at the schedule it seems
>> that lunch will be served on the first day. Perhaps we could plan to meet
>> and eat together during this time (either at the conference or venturing to
>> another location)?
>> http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule
>>
>> I am a graduate student working on how women and minorities are silenced
>> in participatory media spaces and I'd love the chance to speak with more of
>> you "off line" about your experiences.
>>
>> Safe travels to those attending -
>> --
>> Francesca Tripodi, PhD Candidate (Sociology)
>> PhD Intern | Office of the Dean of Students
>> ftripodi.com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



-- 
Jami Mathewson
Educational Partnerships Manager
Wiki Education Foundation
j...@wikiedu.org 
User:Jami (Wiki Ed) 
@WikiEducation 
wikiedu.org/partnerships/

*Our organization supports the Wikipedia Education Program in the United
States and Canada.*
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] New member

[Carol Moore dc]

Note, missed your first message so got wrong impression from what looked 
alike a comment "Eat me, I'm an azuki".


But online people often miss part of messages or misunderstand 
intentions...


Of course, you now feel a bit what it's like for someone to misinterpret 
what you write because of your sex.  Here we've had some past harassment 
from guys, so without - or even with - context we may look at that 
phrase skeptically.


On Wikipedia where a number of guys just are annoyed at anything said by 
females, they also will be quick to misinterpret or think badly of 
anything written by women.


On 10/3/2015 6:36 AM, Robert Williams wrote:

Hello,
My on-wiki username is Eat me, I'm an azuki (formerly Eat me, I'm a red
bean). My main wiki is enwiki, so you can contact me on my talk there
(as opposed to, say, my talkpage on the Finnish Wikinews). I am this
list's newest member.
I wish to share my views about the gender gap issue on Wikimedia
projects, but first I would like to know you all better.
I hope that this list will generate a lot of interesting discussions
that can help me gain some insight about this issue too.
Yours,
Eat me, I'm an azuki


___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Meeting at the Wikiconference?

[Sydney Poore]

Looking forward to seeing you there.
On Oct 5, 2015 8:00 PM, "Francesca Tripodi"  wrote:

> Hello list members!
>
> I am not sure if any of you are planning on attending the upcoming
> conference in DC but it would be wonderful we we could organize a meet up
> for those who might be coming. In taking a look at the schedule it seems
> that lunch will be served on the first day. Perhaps we could plan to meet
> and eat together during this time (either at the conference or venturing to
> another location)?
> http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule
>
> I am a graduate student working on how women and minorities are silenced
> in participatory media spaces and I'd love the chance to speak with more of
> you "off line" about your experiences.
>
> Safe travels to those attending -
> --
> Francesca Tripodi, PhD Candidate (Sociology)
> PhD Intern | Office of the Dean of Students
> ftripodi.com
>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Meeting at the Wikiconference?

[Pine W]

As part of the highly unofficial video crew for the conference, please LMK
off-list if you want video coverage of the meetup or any presentations.
There will be a few of us with video equipment; our deployment to specific
conference sessions and meetups is TBD.

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Katherine Casey <
fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I will be there in my WMF staff capacity and I would love for there to be
> a gendergap meetup! I'm busy from dinnertime onwards on Saturday 10/10, but
> other than that I can make time for whenever works for people. A lunchtime
> meetup sounds like a good place to start.
>
> -Karen/Fluffernutter
>
> On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Francesca Tripodi 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello list members!
>>
>> I am not sure if any of you are planning on attending the upcoming
>> conference in DC but it would be wonderful we we could organize a meet up
>> for those who might be coming. In taking a look at the schedule it seems
>> that lunch will be served on the first day. Perhaps we could plan to meet
>> and eat together during this time (either at the conference or venturing to
>> another location)?
>> http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule
>>
>> I am a graduate student working on how women and minorities are silenced
>> in participatory media spaces and I'd love the chance to speak with more of
>> you "off line" about your experiences.
>>
>> Safe travels to those attending -
>> --
>> Francesca Tripodi, PhD Candidate (Sociology)
>> PhD Intern | Office of the Dean of Students
>> ftripodi.com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Karen Brown
> user:Fluffernutter
>
> *Unless otherwise specified, any email sent from this address is in my
> volunteer capacity and does not represent the views or wishes of the
> Wikimedia Foundation*
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Meeting at the Wikiconference?

[Carol Moore dc]

Because of a vacation and wedding I'll only be able to make Sunday, 
assuming not too tired.  Plus the schedule pretty empty that day except 
for art and feminism. Thought there ARE more spaces for meetings then 
and maybe Sunday AM in one of the "Unconference sessions" or other open 
spaces would be an alternative or another meeting time...


http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule

On 10/4/2015 4:49 PM, Francesca Tripodi wrote:

Hello list members!

I am not sure if any of you are planning on attending the upcoming
conference in DC but it would be wonderful we we could organize a meet
up for those who might be coming. In taking a look at the schedule it
seems that lunch will be served on the first day. Perhaps we could plan
to meet and eat together during this time (either at the conference or
venturing to another location)?
http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule

I am a graduate student working on how women and minorities are silenced
in participatory media spaces and I'd love the chance to speak with more
of you "off line" about your experiences.

Safe travels to those attending -
--
Francesca Tripodi, PhD Candidate (Sociology)
PhD Intern | Office of the Dean of Students
ftripodi.com 



___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap



___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/4/2015 5:59 AM, Robert Williams wrote:

Well, what I'd like to say is that some of these arguments do make
sense. While men shouldn't get over-sensitive over perceived
"harassment" of them, neither should women just whine about
harassment.--Eat me, I'm an azuki


The problem is is the double standard where women's actions are more 
easily perceived as uncivil and/or harassment and their complaints about 
incivility/harassment are labeled whining or even harassment.


I got banned from Wikipedia for merely defending myself against constant 
harassment on the Gender Gap talk page and losing my temper a few times 
in Arbitration because of the massive harassment there by people I 
didn't even know.


The guy who got Ibanned from me for harassment got NO other warning or 
sanction about it during arbitration. The guy who started a harassing 
article about me only got a warning.


Only two of the several guys who worked together to harass and sabotage 
the talk page got warnings about it.


By the way, "eat me, I'm an azuki" doesn't sound like a friendly 
message. Must I really do an internet search of the meaning of the term 
azuki?


___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Meeting at the Wikiconference?

[Katherine Casey]

I will be there in my WMF staff capacity and I would love for there to be a
gendergap meetup! I'm busy from dinnertime onwards on Saturday 10/10, but
other than that I can make time for whenever works for people. A lunchtime
meetup sounds like a good place to start.

-Karen/Fluffernutter

On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Francesca Tripodi 
wrote:

> Hello list members!
>
> I am not sure if any of you are planning on attending the upcoming
> conference in DC but it would be wonderful we we could organize a meet up
> for those who might be coming. In taking a look at the schedule it seems
> that lunch will be served on the first day. Perhaps we could plan to meet
> and eat together during this time (either at the conference or venturing to
> another location)?
> http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule
>
> I am a graduate student working on how women and minorities are silenced
> in participatory media spaces and I'd love the chance to speak with more of
> you "off line" about your experiences.
>
> Safe travels to those attending -
> --
> Francesca Tripodi, PhD Candidate (Sociology)
> PhD Intern | Office of the Dean of Students
> ftripodi.com
>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



-- 
Karen Brown
user:Fluffernutter

*Unless otherwise specified, any email sent from this address is in my
volunteer capacity and does not represent the views or wishes of the
Wikimedia Foundation*
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

[Gendergap] New member

[Robert Williams]

Hello,
My on-wiki username is Eat me, I'm an azuki (formerly Eat me, I'm a red bean). 
My main wiki is enwiki, so you can contact me on my talk there (as opposed to, 
say, my talkpage on the Finnish Wikinews). I am this list's newest member.
I wish to share my views about the gender gap issue on Wikimedia projects, but 
first I would like to know you all better.
I hope that this list will generate a lot of interesting discussions that can 
help me gain some insight about this issue too.
Yours,
Eat me, I'm an azuki

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Robert Williams]

Well, I'd personally expect assault and persistent stalking/harassment to be 
made crimes. But being obnoxious isn't being harassing. If that were the truth, 
then I'd be in prison for "harassing" a girl in class that I liked in school. 
We shouldn't let the nanny state speak up for every "discrimination" of 
females. Instead, what should be the point is encourangement of personal 
inititiative to encourage females to speak up in harassment. In conclusion, 
females should speak up against "harassment" by themselves, rather than letting 
the state do it for them.—Eat me, I'm an azuki
At 2015-10-03 21:24:27, "Carol Moore dc"  wrote:
>These articles do look highly exaggerated.  And, of course, for some 
>guys saying they are afraid of being accused of harassment is just a new 
>excuse for cutting women out of the loop.
>
>However, there is a real problem of people being overly sensitized to 
>the issue due to over-regulation. This is largely the result of getting 
>the government involved in legislating behavior.
>
>Instead of dealing with actual crimes (assault or persistent and 
>dangerous stalking/threats) governments at all levels start defining 
>obnoxious but not dangerous behavior in such a way that companies are 
>afraid of big fines and big lawsuits. They therefore go overboard in 
>dealing with issues that should be dealt with in a more informal 
>manner. Consciousness raising and peer pressure are the way to deal with 
>these issues. And women must have the courage to speak up against each 
>incident. If we expect big brother/uncle sam/the daddy state to do it 
>for us, we are inviting inevitable backlash.
>
>That doesn't mean we should not organize to have individual 
>organizations, be it for-profits or non-profits like WMF, to make it 
>clear such behavior is unacceptable. But they also should encourage 
>individual initiative and peer pressure - and discourage obvious 
>attempts to shut women out because of alleged fear of harassment 
>accusations.
>
>On 10/3/2015 1:10 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
>> the daily telegraph published an article with title "Well done,
>> feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work":
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/11904203/Well-done-feminism.-Now-man-are-afraid-to-help-women-at-work.html
>>
>> and linked to one with title "why powerful men now hide behind open doors":
>> http://nypost.com/2015/05/26/why-powerful-men-now-hide-behind-open-doors/
>>
>> what do you think about such pieces of text?
>>
>> rupert
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please 
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>___
>Gendergap mailing list
>Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Robert Williams]

Well, what I'd like to say is that some of these arguments do make sense. While 
men shouldn't get over-sensitive over perceived "harassment" of them, neither 
should women just whine about harassment.--Eat me, I'm an azuki
At 2015-10-04 01:29:33, "Carol Moore dc"  wrote:
>The relevance is that some wikipedia editors would like to shut us all 
>up about harassment and civility and have made or will increase making 
>these kinds of arguments...
>
>Already made:
>"I'm a serious contributor with 100 contributions a day and I shouldn't 
>have to put up with petty nonsense about civility and harassment."
>
>"These women are just oversensitive and have to "man up" and take it."
>
>New variations could be made:
>
>"I'm scared of making my 100 contributions a day cause I might get 
>accused of harassment if there are any women on that article."
>
>"These women and their false accusations are scaring away dozens of top 
>contributors..."  etc.
>
>"I hope the women editing here won't start screaming harassment and 
>start scaring away big contributors who put so much important material 
>in the encyclopedia."
>
>"This woman complaining about harassment at ANI is just part of a pack 
>of feminists world wide who are scaring men so badly they are hurting 
>themselves and wikipedia..."
>
>etc.
>
>On 10/3/2015 11:19 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case wrote:
>>> From having looked only at the headlines:
>>
>> 1) I really don't see the direct relevance of these to this list.
>>
>> 2) Consider the sources: a British newspaper so notorious for its
>> sympathies to the Conservative Party and its associated politics that
>> it's known informally as the Torygraph, and an American tabloid owned by
>> Rupert Murdoch and known for similar politics.
>>
>> Daniel Case
>
>___
>Gendergap mailing list
>Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

[Gendergap] Meeting at the Wikiconference?

[Francesca Tripodi]

Hello list members!

I am not sure if any of you are planning on attending the upcoming
conference in DC but it would be wonderful we we could organize a meet up
for those who might be coming. In taking a look at the schedule it seems
that lunch will be served on the first day. Perhaps we could plan to meet
and eat together during this time (either at the conference or venturing to
another location)?
http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule

I am a graduate student working on how women and minorities are silenced in
participatory media spaces and I'd love the chance to speak with more of
you "off line" about your experiences.

Safe travels to those attending -
-- 
Francesca Tripodi, PhD Candidate (Sociology)
PhD Intern | Office of the Dean of Students
ftripodi.com
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap