Re: [Gendergap] Marketplace.org: Inside the sexual harassment in online gaming
Sexist harassment on Wikipedia is real, but the sort of stuff that normally goes on in the online gaming world is orders of magnitude more offensive and damaging. Also Wikipedia is not a video game :-) Gaming draws from much more difficult, and troubled, demographic sectors. They may share social isolation with Wikipedia editors though and seek a sense of belonging in either case. Geeky girls and girls that love interactive combat games might share that. By the way, recently saw the movie Whip it, about a Texas teenager that takes up roller derby. Also a great movie, Lilya 4-Ever, about a girl that is human trafficked but that is to change the subject. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] How to Kill a Troll
Just dropping in to share this: http://incisive.nu/2012/how-to-kill-a-troll/ with you. I started surfing from: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/us/sexual-harassment-in-online-gaming-stirs-anger.html and edited a bit at [[online game#Bad behavior]]. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I've never particularly felt the boys club atmosphere on Wikipedia that apparently deters some women. However, I am very angry right now. I tried to add [[date rape]] as a see also link to the very incomplete article [[college dating]]. The relevance seemed obvious to me. It was removed by two separate people, and when I took it to the talk page, its relevance was questioned, and I was told to prove it because it was obvious to whom? Fine. I've proven it with sourcing, adding a small section. I think that needed to happen anyway, but I'm infuriated that I could not just add a see also link to it and tell the students who are really working on the article that a section needed adding. (The people who removed the link are seasoned Wikipedians, not members of the class developing the article.) Am I crazy? LadyofShalott No, that is the usual reaction of biased editors of all persuasions, to throw their mind out of gear, when obvious conclusions which contradict their bias are advanced. It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] User blocked for sexist comment, many disagree - it wasn't sexist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Block_review_for_Baseball_Bugs The first unblock statement shares the link to the joke and the reprimand by an admin on the users page telling them they can get blocked for ongoing comments like that. Fluffernutter points out that there is a boyzone in Wikipedia and that it's not right to mock a users gender. I do appreciate Fluffernuter speaking up about this, I know it's not always something that she likes to get mixed up with (so to say - as we talked about in IRC today). A dialogue takes place ranging from people thinking the joke wasn't sexist, to Fluffernutter is being PC. I don't believe that the user the joke was directed at participates in the conversation - for all we know they might have not been offended - but, this is just another example of how people seem to be unclear about what sexist behavior is. Where I've worked and attended school, it was always very clear that behavior or comments like that were/are not prohibited, but more often than not, people don't speak up when people behave poorly (silent victims). Unlike on Wikipedia, where people generally do speak up - the shroud of the internet, I suppose. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, an educational environment. And when people have to start questioning Is this offensive or not? Is it sexist or not? then clearly there is a problem with something in the culture and system. -Sarah Stierch I'm just looking into this and am not happy. There was a great wind from all quarters... It gets complicated fast. What the hell is this: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneousdiff=453620216oldid=453618738 Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] User blocked for sexist comment, many disagree - it wasn't sexist.
You are right, of course, what we do is bad enough, without having to answer for the expectations of what our gender is expected to do. Fred Thanks for posting this, Sarah. I was hesitant to link to it while it was an active thread. My basic feeling in this case was that the user's comments weren't *particularly* terrible, and all of us who are sensitive to gender issues have probably seen way worse. A block may well have been overkill in this situation. However, I'm concerned that the way that thread played it out gave an overwhelmingly strong impression that oh, you're not a woman sort of comments are completely fine, and that anyone who says otherwise is a PC, tiny, reactive minority. I was really disappointed to be the only person who showed up to that thread who could understand how the comments could even be *perceived* as a problem. Just when we think gender concerns may be penetrating the wiki's consciousness, we get something like and I go, ...oh. Sigh. There's nothing to be done with regard to this particular case at this point, and I hasten to ask that people not descend on the (now-close) thread, or the (now-unblocked) user. But I would like to see a conversation about how we can address this sort of Of COURSE it's fine! attitude. -Fluffernutter On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.comwrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Block_review_for_Baseball_Bugs The first unblock statement shares the link to the joke and the reprimand by an admin on the users page telling them they can get blocked for ongoing comments like that. Fluffernutter points out that there is a boyzone in Wikipedia and that it's not right to mock a users gender. I do appreciate Fluffernuter speaking up about this, I know it's not always something that she likes to get mixed up with (so to say - as we talked about in IRC today). A dialogue takes place ranging from people thinking the joke wasn't sexist, to Fluffernutter is being PC. I don't believe that the user the joke was directed at participates in the conversation - for all we know they might have not been offended - but, this is just another example of how people seem to be unclear about what sexist behavior is. Where I've worked and attended school, it was always very clear that behavior or comments like that were/are not prohibited, but more often than not, people don't speak up when people behave poorly (silent victims). Unlike on Wikipedia, where people generally do speak up - the shroud of the internet, I suppose. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, an educational environment. And when people have to start questioning Is this offensive or not? Is it sexist or not? then clearly there is a problem with something in the culture and system. -Sarah Stierch -- GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia http://www.glamwiki.org Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Arthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch and Sarah Stierch Consulting *Historical, cultural artistic research advising.* -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Supporting Campus Ambassador programs [Fwd: Issue of Copy-Pasting]
Help is needed. Fred --- Original Message Subject: Issue of Copy-Pasting From:Hisham his...@wikimedia.org Date:Fri, October 7, 2011 7:46 am To: Wikipedia Ambassadors India wikipedia-ambassadors-in...@googlegroups.com wikipedia-online-ambassad...@googlegroups.com - Hi Team This problem is continuing and is fast approaching disaster proportions. Please see these comments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:India_Education_Program#Queries_from_the_Wikipedia_community and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Ambassadors#Concerns_over_impact_on_article_quality Please urgently do the following a) Constantly repeat to every student that copy-pasting is not acceptable b) Monitor the work of your students - and make sure they edit in their sandboxes before they go live (and only go live after you ok it.) c) Please let's have the Campus Online Ambassadors working closely with each other to do point (b) and to track, monitor and correct the work of your respective students. In the next few days and weeks, the problem is going to explode unless we control it because many students' deadlines are approaching. Please treat this matter with the highest urgency. The very future of our program is at stake. Many thanks. hisham Hi TeamThis problem is continuing and is fast approaching disaster proportions. Please see these commentshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:India_Education_Program#Queries_from_the_Wikipedia_community and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Ambassadors#Concerns_over_impact_on_article_qualityPlease urgently do the followinga) Constantly repeat to every student that copy-pasting is not acceptableb) Monitor the work of your students - and make sure they edit in their sandboxes before they go live (and only go live after you ok it.)c) Please let's have the Campus Online Ambassadors working closely with each other to do point (b) and to track, monitor and correct the work of your respective students.In the next few days and weeks, the problem is going to explode unless we control it because many students' deadlines are approaching.Please treat this matter with the highest urgency. The very future of our program is at stake.Many thanks. hisham ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] banned/blocked users - was: Re: washington dc
I think it just shows another aspect of Wikimedia that I think needs a better examination - banning and blocks and activities of those members on other projects. Extended blockings (1 year) and bannings mean that a user can't participate on that one project - but they are welcome to participate in other projects. I know many folks say Oh, assume good faith - perhaps they'll come back after their block a better, happier, healthier contributor! or They might be messed up online but they're not offline, (sorry Chris!) but this has not quite been what I have seen. I've seen members banned or blocked on en.WP go to have unhealthy and unstable relationships with the community on other projects, continue to express rage and even at times sociopathic behavior to WMF and editors outside of projects, and so forth. I've had an en.WP user stalk and verbally attack me off of Wikipedia (including sexual harassment on social networking sites) to the point where I am seriously afraid that if I see this user show up at WIkimania next year or a regional event (he's regional to where I live) I won't know if I'll be able to stay. This user currently contributes to other projects that I am active on and makes a point to comment only on statements I say (in certain arenas), leave comments on my talk page, and continue to try to get my attention in other manners, including on IRC - where the user talks to people I consider friends about me to them in order to convince them that I'm not an adequate contributor. As someone who survived an extremely abusive relationship, the last thing I want to do is worry about my personal safety and the safety of others when attending events, editing or contributing, or just hanging out online. I didn't know how to deal with it when it happened, and I still don't. It's an unsettling experience. And while the survey I am preparing to wrap up confirms what the editor survey said - most (female) users don't have problems with users escalate, just under half have. Assuming good faith isn't always possible when anger management, mental instability and off wiki or offline experiences just solidify that some of these people do have problems. And while many users often sit in the background and let the aggressive users like I've outlined above keep on keepin' on - they continue to suffer silently, and those who speak out actively have to suffer with even stronger and more prominent attacks. Sorry to get so emotional about it, it's just...really frustrating for me.. -Sarah Stierch And while many users often sit in the background and let the aggressive users like I've outlined above keep on keepin' on Right there is the coalface. The problem is the facilitators and the enablers, not the nuts. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: [Ticket#2011100710013059] Pictorial Depictions
You say, Would it not be more consistent to use a more balanced and cohesive aesthetic style across the whole subject of human reproduction and sexuality? Yes, and we do discuss that here. One train of thought is to use images of people as they are rather than idealized images. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: [Ticket#2011100710013059] Pictorial Depictions
Hi Why is an OTRS ticket being discussed on a public mailing list? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the ticket info and address were supposed to be private, unless otherwise noted, no? Regards Theo I didn't see anything confidential here. OTRS referred her to this list. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] This list
I know that it is not typically stringently enforced on mailing lists, but I think that enforcing [[WP:CIVIL]] would be a good idea on this list. I can understand concerns over any form of moderation, but believe that for this list the benefits far outweigh the costs. An open atmosphere where everyone feels comfortable participating is necessary for this list to have any purpose - and [[WP:CIVIL]] enforcement would be a good first step towards establishing that. I'm not, to be clear, suggesting the moderation of dissenting viewpoints. Iâm just suggesting that because of the nature of this list it would be especially, extraordinarily, unusually counterproductive to allow a combative or uncivil environment to take root here. I'm also tempted to just say that we should broadly defer to Sarah in moderation. I trust her judgment, and I cannot imagine her trying to censor viewpoints just because she disagrees with them. Kevin Gorman Enforcement of our civility rules on this list is inappropriate as it may be applied to women posters who may have grievances. Not that venting is appropriate. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 16
A bit rude are we? It would have been more useful to simply mention the other list, which I clearly was not aware of. Also, discussion followed on whether this is a positive development, and whether a number of other divisions will (or should) spring up after this. If anyone really would like to complain that this is sexist or not useful in creating a friendlier environment to women, then so be it, but these groups will exist either way. Because minority groups need to exist this moment in time for people to feel more comfortable in their own domains. This has consistently shown positive results with in diverse populations. Far in the future, when equality is achieved for all people, perhaps these types of groups will be null and void. The Gender Gap list will remain and allow for men to participate with women anyway, so it's no biggie. --Maggie Yes, I agree. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] vulgar jokes and sexualized environments on Wikipedia
To beef up women's assertiveness so they protest, or to give more power to some authoritarian editors to delete and block reverters, that is the question. Why not do both?? :-) Or just get more assertive female admins. A job I myself shrink at the thought of. I already have enough problems just trying to edit the controversial articles I so often end up editing. But then I am a glutton for punishment - or is it merely negative attention?? Personal questions you will have to answer for yourself. You don't seem a likely administrator, but, with some discipline, could probably do it well. Running the gauntlet at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship is probably the main barrier to wielding a mop. We don't need authoritarian editors or administrators, male or female, but we do need people who will apply policy. Degrading material is not acceptable and, in extreme cases, which this was, fall within deletion policy. I have not deleted the object of the current controversy only because it is a negative example which was extensively discussed. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] vulgar jokes and sexualized environments on Wikipedia
And to think I was strongly criticized for posting about High Noon moments You'd make a fine administrator, and any process that would not do so is broken. Many of us know that and talk freely about it, but we've not been able to get far, or even get up the energy to try. Fred So I've been asked by a few people to run for admin on Wikipedia, all people we know here. And to be honest - and I haven't been with them - I *want* to be admin, I want to be admin on Commons also (yeah right :( ) but I know, because I am who I am, I feel like I'm going to have an extra hard time. I know the vocal minority who will speak up. I'm lucky that the guy who stalked me who is a Wikimedian is at least banned from Wikipedia... I hate to say it...but, the idea of getting crucified just so I can clean up some pages and have authority makes my heart race. And I can handle a lot, but honestly, some of these people make me so uncomfortable, nervous and anxious, that I have no desire to go through the administrator nominator process because I fear I can't make it with the large group of technologically capable people and those who have perfected their Wiki-persona by being assholes who like to put baby in a corner. I lied to the two people who asked me to run, two people I consider very close friends and colleagues - I told them I had no clue what I'd even use my administrative buttons for. I guess I still don't, but, I know I could make a difference. But honestly, I don't want to go through torture to have a symbol on my user page when I know so many people who seem to have a problem with me, and I'm sure Carol understands that. Sorry to be all boohoo feel sorry for me about this, but, I often start to question the culture I'm surrounding myself with when I, a fairly confident, capable and badass person, find myself afraid to apply for a volunteer position within a culture that I value so much because I think people will just be assholes for the purpose of being assholes. On a positive note, I did get OTRS access and I now look at Commons stuff and general info-en it's actually been pretty laid back, but, I cleared out a queue of about 100 things that had been waiting for responses for upwards of 2 months. So I feel rather productive thus far =) (And the thank you's people send you are really nice!) -Sarah On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:24 AM, carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: To beef up women's assertiveness so they protest, or to give more power to some authoritarian editors to delete and block reverters, that is the question. Why not do both?? :-) Or just get more assertive female admins. A job I myself shrink at the thought of. I already have enough problems just trying to edit the controversial articles I so often end up editing. But then I am a glutton for punishment - or is it merely negative attention?? On 9/30/2011 3:35 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was A woman's anus after she was sodomized!. Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input. Ryan Kaldari ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap -- GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia http://www.glamwiki.org Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Arthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch and Sarah Stierch Consulting *Historical, cultural artistic research advising.* -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] vulgar jokes and sexualized environments on Wikipedia
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was A woman's anus after she was sodomized!. Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input. Ryan Kaldari Such material may not only be removed but may be deleted under WP:RD2 as grossly offensive and degrading. I have not done so pending resolution of the discussion. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] vulgar jokes and sexualized environments on Wikipedia
It seems from my experience that WP:RD2 is usually interpreted fairly narrowly, at least in the cases I've tried to use it. Specifically it requires the material to be grossly offensive and excludes 'ordinary' incivility. In the world of Wikipedia, grossly offensive is a pretty high bar it seems. Right now, I have a hard time even convincing people that this sort of stuff is incivil, much less worthy of revision deletion. My favorite example is the Talk Page for Rubyfruit Jungle. It took 4 years, 10 editors, and a couple of edit wars to remove a joke posted by an anonymous IP about vaginas smelling like fish. Ryan Kaldari It is the responsibility of administrators to apply WP:RD2 fairly and appropriately. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
So you think we might get more done if we have the common sense not to discuss politics and religion? Fred Hi everyone, Apologies for my bad English. English is not my mother tongue. Let us not use this mailing list to discuss religion. Let us concentrate on strategies to improve participation of women in Wikimedia projects instead. Thank you -- Netha Hussain User: Netha Hussain Student of Medicine and Surgery *nethahussain.blogspot.com swethaambari.wordpress.com* remember that women's rights are way, way more important than the interests of Wikimedia Foundation. On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.orgwrote: Just wanted to say that I didn't take any offense from Michael's comments. I was probably a bit out of line in my characterization of Christianity. I was just trying to point out that any religion, when taken literally, can be problematic. There were actually many books published during the American Civil War about how the Bible endorsed slavery. They make a convincing argument if you accept all of their Bible quotes taken out of context. The part about women being subservient is actually quite pervasive in the bible, both old and new testament. See: 1 Peter 3:1-6 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Colossians 3:18 Ephesians 5:22-23 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 1 Corinthians 11:3-10 Isaiah 19:16 Deuteronomy 22:20-21 Genesis 3:16 Genesis 2:18 This is certainly not a novel interpretation. Indeed it seems very difficult to argue that the Bible does not consider women subservient to men. The part about beards is Old Testament and only taken seriously by Orthodox Christians, Amish, Mennonites, etc. The part about putting adulterers to death is also Old Testament and obviously not taken seriously by most Christians, although John Calvin did argue that the Bible justified the death penalty for adultery (as have other Christians historically). All that said, I am not trying to imply that modern Christianity is an oppressive religion. I'm just saying that historically, it has a few skeletons in its closet and it went through some serious growing pains, as is Islam. Ryan Kaldari On 9/23/11 7:00 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Emily Monroeemilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Lowry, what you just said was said was sarcastic and potentially uncivil. So Ryan and Carol can lie about MY religion, and I'M the one accused of incivility? ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
This rant is inappropriate. Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion. There is a grain of truth in such accusations, but you ascribe them to the entire religion. A part of what we are doing here is attempting to foster an atmosphere on Wikipedia where Muslim women feel welcome to edit. Wikimedia is a global multicultural organization. Fred Ok I will be a bit long here. On 23/09/2011 01:07, Emily Monroe wrote: Personally, I really don't understand why people get upset about Islamic women /choosing/ to wear hijabs, or niqabs, under the pretense of feminism. Part of what feminism fights for is the right to choose. This is the unintended consequence. I get the practical arguments (ie, I don't know who this person is etc.) is, though, and I think any girl or women who has their wardrobe dictated by another person is being abused, unless there's a non-abusive reason behind it; I doubt that anyone wearing a work or school uniform would qualify as being abused. That is probably because you still consider the niqab as a piece of garment only. But the niqab doesn't come alone, it comes in a set, with Islamic law included. And that law necessarily includes the submission of women to men. It is very important to understand that Islam is not exactly a personal choice faith, in the sense that you would consider tolerance between different churches of Protestantism on the American territory. Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion. It is not either to be considered with a benevolent multicultural mind, like you would tolerate the differences of Buddhist immigrants. A law-abiding good-citizen attitude is recommended to Muslims only if they are a minority in a Western country. If they become a majority, then they must take power, and impose Islamic law. This entails dividing the population into three categories ; Muslims who have full dignity, Christians and Jews who are sub-citizens subjected to occasional abuse, non believers or heathens who have no rights. This also necessarily includes a loss of civic rights for all women. During the twentieth century there were positive signs from the Muslim world. They were due to : - local customs atoning Islamic law - The modernist mentalities of post-colonization Nation-States However this is disappearing now, due to : - New globalized generations who conceive Islam not as local custom but as globally opposed to the Western world - The systematic destruction of the modern Muslim Nation-States by NATO Only in the mainstream media you hear that Bin Laden was captured because it suddenly became possible, and Lybian democratic forces suddenly rebelled against dictator Khadafi. In fact Bin Laden's capture was a public relations operation, which helped conceal the fact that Nato has been promoting Al-Qaida to fight in Lybia. This in turn helps establishing business interests in NATO-controlled Muslim countries, with Western capital controlling the big business, the local population subjected to religious obscurantism and not participating to the democratic defense of their rights, and in between a zealots mafia.. In Islam women do have rights, yes, like your teenage daughter has rights. Not like an adult professional woman has rights and can call her lawyer. In Islam if you have no husband and no father, then you are subjected to the authority of your younger brother, who can decide of your life for you, and occasionally beat you up if you don't obey. In Islam you cannot divorce if you wish, only if the Muslim judge thinks that your husband did something wrong according to Islamic law. In Islam you cannot be raped by your husband, he is your husband it's the word of God that he can do what he wants with you. In Islam if you complain that you were raped by strangers, you have to prove first that you were not sexually provocative. In Islam if you are found with a person of the same sex, the community can stone you to death as they wish. The reason why I write all that is that I have talked with feminists from Muslim countries, so I try to convey their message. The first thing is that they really would like to get rid of Islam. Not being mildly respected as a member of the Muslim community, but really get rid of Islam, and being actively protected from it. They want to have a life, they cannot even subscribe an insurance policy, buy a car, go visit friends without the agreement of male relatives. Then there is the sociological problem, that Islam doesn't tolerate a sexually neutral civic life. It might not be obvious in North America because you are so used to it, but in order to have a professional life women need to work in an environment where there are male colleagues and clients, and therefore need
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
A lot of this surgery is cosmetic surgery, thus it is a matter of taste, not a matter of dysfunction or normality. And, usually, is quite private and nobody's business. So, I don't see a problem so long as the cosmetic aspect is clear. There is a plastic surgeon who specializes in this area that has uploaded many images for promotional purposes. I'm pretty sure he has quit by now. That was several years ago. Fred I don't know whether this is worth bothering about, but it's the kind of thing that concerns me. Anyone not wanting to look at genitalia should not click on the links. I came across [[Labiaplasty]], while looking for material on female genital mutilation. There's an image on the page of what is supposed to be before and after a labiaplasty. The previous caption implied that it was the same woman, though it doesn't look like it -- for one thing, larger versions of the images on the Commons show one has a mole on her abdomen and the other doesn't. What really bothers me is the before image shows a woman within a normal range, yet we are presenting this as something in need of surgery. I'm concerned that young women could stumble on this and start to doubt themselves. The image and upload history are here -- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hypertrophy_of_Labia_Minora_before_and_after_surgery.jpg There's no indication that these are medical images; no indication of model release; no reliable sources indicating that the oversized one really is regarded as such; and the images were uploaded by occasionally used accounts. I've twice removed the image from the article, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labiaplastyaction=historysubmitdiff=450858934oldid=450796332 and I've left a note on talk, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Labiaplasty#Image but it is being restored. If anyone wants to jump in, please do. If not, no worries. I'll completely understand if you would all prefer not to comment. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
On 17/09/2011 20:14, Fred Bauder wrote: A lot of this surgery is cosmetic surgery, thus it is a matter of taste, not a matter of dysfunction or normality. And, usually, is quite private and nobody's business. From an average citizen's point of view, certainly. From a parent's, educator's or non cosmetic doctor point of view, I doubt so. As I said previously, I am not a doctor, but I am regularly employed as a geek placing photos on the local medical faculty's website. I understand most people will be shocked by a sense of decency vs obscenity here, but for me I almost sigh with relief by seeing something perfectly healthy. And although I am not a doctor I am not sure this kind of labia should be shown as something in need of surgery. Now about teenage girls with normal organs who demand surgery as their free personal choice, I know it creates quite a lot of trouble in families, with sometimes a huge loss of money for average income parents, or severe behaviour problems for the girl who doesn't get her surgery. I also believe that the quest for a perfectly formatted body is part of the objectification of women. And last, for the cognitive or educational aspect, it should be emphasized that non top model or non porn actress bodies are normal. Arnaud As is the plastic surgery craze. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Hairdresser, hairstylist...barber?
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: I searched for hairdresser and was directed to barber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairdresser Kind of interesting, that it directs to barber and then discusses male barbers and men's haircutting culture. Surely I can't be the only person who finds this odd... Did you take a look at the article history? Would you prefer the last pre-merger version (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hairdresseroldid=238820338) over a redirect to a proper article about the same subject? Regards, Ole Yes, it is as simple as writing a good article. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiquote
Did anyone see the quote of the day? Part of me wonders if was intended for us.. ;-) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Main_Page Hahaha! ;-) Never argue with a garbage truck http://books.google.com/books?id=iwjLbxLBoM8Cpg=PA87lpg=PA87dq=%22Never+argue+with+a+garbage+truck%22source=blots=kRhR3FpHRJsig=W-pIksedCze5OpJzUJ3x_X4KrcQhl=enei=Vj1yTu64HJD-sQKG-rXECQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=1ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA#v=onepageq=%22Never%20argue%20with%20a%20garbage%20truck%22f=false Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiquote
Did anyone see the quote of the day? Part of me wonders if was intended for us.. ;-) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Main_Page Hahaha! ;-) Never argue with a garbage truck http://books.google.com/books?id=iwjLbxLBoM8Cpg=PA87lpg=PA87dq=%22Never+argue+with+a+garbage+truck%22source=blots=kRhR3FpHRJsig=W-pIksedCze5OpJzUJ3x_X4KrcQhl=enei=Vj1yTu64HJD-sQKG-rXECQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=1ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA#v=onepageq=%22Never%20argue%20with%20a%20garbage%20truck%22f=false Fred We will encounter things we cannot control. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Wikifashion
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/students-startup-weaves-a-web-that-keeps-growing-20110914-1k9hi.html http://wikifashion.com/wiki/Main_Page https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikifashionaction=editredlink=1 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Madeline_Veenstraaction=editredlink=1 Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] So this is how Commons works?
On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.comwrote: This is a NSFW photo http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Korean_Vulva2.jpg Five for deletion, two for keep. This is its third nomination. An admin came in today and declared it being kept because No valid reason for deletion, per previous decisions. Person is not recognizable. It has been nominated twice, by anon IP's who have simply declared porn or obscene as the deletion reason (not enough of a reason). I nominated it, like I do many things, because it was unused on any project since its upload in March of 2009, it's uneducational, and the poor description proves that. I also think it's poor quality - if we need an educational photo of a vulva we have two really fab ones on the [[vulva]] article. Which of course was argued (a nude photo of a headless woman blow drying her hair in heels with the blow dryer cord and shadow in the shot.. come...on...), and as FloNight noted, we can probably have some high quality photos of a nude woman using a blow dryer that aren't taken in the bedroom for the project..if it's that in demand. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Korean_Vulva2.jpg I'd be concerned about this user's track record of uploads, this the only one not deleted: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonghap Presumably if there is/was File:Korean Vulva3.jpg and File:Korean Vulva2.jpg, then there was File:Korean Vulva1.jpg which is gone now. On copyright issues alone, I am concerned about this image, as well as regarding consent, given the private location of the photo. Cheers, Katie Yes, the context is being ignored, particularly the choice of name for the image, transmogrifying an innocent image of a nude woman into an oriental sex image. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Resolution:Images of identifiable people
+1. There are hundreds of photographs of women sunbathing, walking down the street, etc. It makes me severely uncomfortable that we have people taking photographs of people in a voyeuristic manner uploading images to Commons, Flickr, whatever. Just because someone (of any gender) lays on the beach, walks down the street wearing something sexy, or whatever, doesn't mean they are asking to have their photograph taken. -Sarah How about this one: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/File:TalkingintheRoad.JPG Anyone's permission required? Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Consent for photographs on Commons
Here's something we might do though. Addition of any image which violates anyone's privacy to any article can be suppressed on the English Wikipedia. Using this policy: Removal of non-public personal information, such as phone numbers, home addresses, workplaces or identities of pseudonymous or anonymous individuals who have not made their identity public. This includes hiding the IP data of editors who accidentally logged out and thus inadvertently revealed their own IP addresses. Suppression is a tool of first resort in removing this information. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight That would not resolve the situation on Commons, but would render the image useless and superfluous. Fred --- On Mon, 12/9/11, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote: First, the issue of consent on Commons has been passionately debates for years, and has a long and tortured history. Before proposing anything, please make yourself familiar with the previous discussions and their outcomes. Most notably the discussions surrounding these pages: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Sexual_content http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archives/User_problems_7#Privatemusings http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Nudity The point I can't emphasize enough is that if you put forward any proposal on Commons that implies there is anything possibly problematic about sexual or nude images in any way, you will be completely shut down. And rightly so. After all, the idea -- -- that people might feel aggrieved if a picture of them naked, or giving a blowjob, is hosted on Commons for global reuse, without their consent, -- that their strength of feeling might be different if the matter concerned a picture showing them clothed, walking down the street -- and that the Foundation should bear that difference in strength of feeling in mind, by requiring more solid consent for the former type of image, is really outré, isn't it. :)) Andreas The only way you have any chance to shape the policies and guidelines on Commons is if you approach the problem from a sex/nudity-agnostic point of view. Here's a good example of what NOT to do: I think a general statement that permission of the subject is desirable / necessary for photos featuring nudity would be a good thing - thoughts? Privatemusings (talk) 00:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC) I think the horse is beyond dead by now. --Carnildo (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC) If the horse was beyond dead in January 2009, imagine where it is now. That said, there is still lots of room for improvement. In particular... Commons already requires consent for photos of identifiable people in private spaces. In addition, many countries require consent even for public spaces. (Take a look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_persons#Country_specific_consent_requirements.) The way this requirement works, however, is completely passive and reactive - there is no impetus to proactively assert consent, only to assert it when an image is challenged. This is a very inefficient system. There are no templates or categories or anything to deal with consent on Commons (apart from Template:Consent which is tied up with the tortured history of Commons:Sexual_content and can't be used currently). I don't think it would be incredibly controversial to introduce a very simple consent template that was specifically tailored to the existing policies and laws. This would make things easier for Commons reusers, professional photographers who use model releases, and admins who have to constantly deal with these issues. In short, it would be a win for everyone and it would introduce the idea of thinking proactively about consent on Commons in a way that isn't threatening to people who are concerned about censorship. As soon as I have some free time, I'll whip up such a template and throw it into the water. It'll be interesting to see how it is received. Ryan Kaldari ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Consent for photographs on Commons
As soon as I have some free time, I'll whip up such a template and throw it into the water. It'll be interesting to see how it is received. Ryan Kaldari Ok, sounds like a plan. I'll make a noise in the east; you strike in the west... Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] So this is how Commons works?
This is a NSFW photo http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Korean_Vulva2.jpg Five for deletion, two for keep. This is its third nomination. An admin came in today and declared it being kept because No valid reason for deletion, per previous decisions. Person is not recognizable. Were the reasons we provided not valid enough? Can you even challenge something like this? Did I miss something? Am I doing this wrong? Any help would be great, Sarah He is correct that a proposal to do something must cite a valid reason, as must comments if they are to be considered when closing a matter. An image where the person is not identifiable doesn't require their permission. In that he is correct. I agree it is a particularly poor image that shows nearly nothing of educational value. However the reason you cite, pornographic, does not seem to apply; she is just drying her hair. He does admit the amount of naked women on Commons is a bit ridiculous Perhaps that issue should be addressed as a policy discussion. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] The Gawker on Monica Lewinsky
http://gawker.com/5838090/monica-lewinsky-wants-to-go-into-pr Notice the sympathetic comments. I wonder what our article looks like. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Question for the Foundation about photographs of women
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 22:22, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: As Sarah Stierch points out, our images of sexuality and reproduction are crap, broadly speaking, and our paperwork/processes are self-evidently not good for attracting high quality photographs. What processes should we put in place to encourage good quality photographs of this kind. e.g. should we set up a separate OTRS queue to process the paperwork for these photographs? Should it be managed by verified non-anonymous women only? This last point is an excellent suggestion. Lots of people would be rightly reluctant to email a completely anonymous email address, read by lots of people, about such a sensitive issue. If there were a dedicated address, where the complaint would be read and handled only by other women, that could make a huge difference. Sarah What shows up in a OTRS request is your username and your email address. However, the nature of most objectionable material usually reveals identity. My thought is that there should be a women's OTRS address which handles any request, including matters which do not relate to images, which women want to address only to women. If that makes it easier to approach us regarding delicate issues it should be available. I suppose there would have to also be women only review. However, I'm not real sure how material is assigned to queues within OTRS, so the possibility exists of a request being viewed by a man on its way to the women's queue. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Question for the Foundation about photographs of women
Several women, including on WikiProject Feminism on the English Wikipedia, have recently expressed concern about the number of photographs of women's body parts that Wikimedia hosts, particularly regarding the issue of permission. It's far from clear in many cases that the women have given consent. It's also sometimes unclear that the subjects are above the age of consent. Another concern is what a woman is meant to do if someone uploads an image of her without her knowledge. Is she supposed to write to an anonymous person at OTRS? Does she have to give her real name? How does it work? Any information from the Foundation about the legal situation, and what Foundation policy is, would be very helpful. Sarah The matter is discussed at Commons:Photographs of identifiable people https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gender Gap IRC?
Any thoughts on having a gender gap or women's outreach IRC channel? I think it'd be nice to have an open hang out for those interested (of any gender) to participate in not only conversation, but, have live action dialogue about articles of concern and so forth. Or is that opening a can of worms that shouldn't be opened? I like the idea, but, if it'd be just me sitting in a room by myself...that'd be no fun! -Sarah Well, it is an excellent opportunity to talk without thinking and get into trouble, but as I seldom bother with IRC, I would generally be a no-show. I would go ahead, but unless a regular crew of women shows up it will be a bust. I think we have to get over the idea that bringing up some issue is canvassing. It would be if there was an enforceable demand that each of us take a particular action, but as experience shows, social pressure does not get you far on Wikipedia. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Mostly about fem-edits dilemma
I work with professional women every day whose careers are in the world of information. They are avid Twitterers, expert Flickrites, Facebook fiends, and Foursquare addicts. At my library science grad program, everyone knows how to use MediaWiki, as it is used internally for classes. And yet, for whatever reason, Wikipedia is just not part of their skill set. That is what needs to change. There is clearly no lack of dedication or ability among such people. Dominic This is interesting because transferring information from a good reference to a Wikipedia article is for me, and would seem to be for an expert in library science, both a lot of fun and something that maximizes the acceptability of the edits. It is, however, somewhat of a solitary activity, you are almost never seriously challenged regarding editing like that. It is when you make a point that the trouble starts. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] pressured for time and feel stressed and overworked
Some research: http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_viewnewsLang=ennewsId=20110628005338div=-867702808 ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] New Survey: 9% female editors
--- On Sat, 2/7/11, carolmoor...@verizon.net carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: From: carolmoor...@verizon.net carolmoor...@verizon.net Subject: [Gendergap] New Survey: 9% female editors To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Saturday, 2 July, 2011, 15:52 http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/06/10/wikipedia-editors-do-it-for-fun-first-results-of-our-2011-editor-survey/ Also, interesting statistics on ages, with 30 plus almost as large as 12-29 year olds. Children and teenagers create lots of accounts, but the general run of them can't contribute much any more, and we've blocked lots of schools. If the median age has crept up into the late twenties, that seems like a good sign. In the 2009 survey, it stood at 22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WMFstratplanSurvey1.png I have said this before, but we seem to lack African-American editors, and it's my impression we don't cover African-American culture well. I wonder if we could get an article out on theroot.com There are a few really good and prolific African-American editors, but mass participation is not there, but that kind of fits the demographic. American Hispanics even more so One thing I missed in the recent survey was a specific question about which race and religion editors belonged to. It would be good to have such data, and compare it to general demographics, both in the English-speaking core countries, and the world population in general to identify demographics that are over- or underrepresented. Andreas American Indians barely edit. I edit articles on American Indian history and I don't think I've ever run into an Indian editor. My strategy with any of these groups, and women too, is to generally support them strongly, but not to support any particular campaign they engage in. For example, the idea that Egyptians are Black, which one young African-American woman was promoting strongly, against considerable opposition. So that is the first premise, the door has to be open for everyone and they should be able to depend on strong support by others. Whether they will come in the door is another matter. And how we handle particular strongly held points of view is another. For example, we had a Ute chief come and give a talk in Crestone. Very smart, wise man, an elder, but he made a point of maintaining that the Utes have always lived in the Rocky Mountain west and that any theory about crossing the Bering Strait was just nonsense. That sort of attitude can be documented, of course, but I doubt he could do that if he decided to edit. This guy was about my age so I know he could if he thought it mattered. And that, I guess, is the missing piece, believing, or knowing, that editing matters in shaping global knowledge and consciousness. That is kind of the story of academia, they thought they had a monopoly. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] As I was passing through...
Wikipedia is equipped to deal with particular editing issues. Every edit is logged and can be viewed and discussed. Without specifics we assume everyone, you and those you had trouble with, was editing in good faith and had some more or less good reason for their edits or comments. You do seem like the ideal editor, although as a legally trained person you may not fully grok the flexible nature of how policies and guidelines are applied. For example, the canvassing guideline which has been discussed by others. We do want to grapple with whatever problems arise but don't want use the list to gang up on anyone who happens to get crossways with one of our participants. Fred Hello, everyone, I joined this list a couple days ago after reading through its archives, which I embarked on after having come across the June 13th article in *The Signpost* discussing the tiny percentage of self-identified female Wikipedia editors. I'd missed the January *New York Times* article and all that flowed from it (including this list) until I started systematically looking through the community section of Wikipedia for the first time about 10 days ago, to see what my options might be to address my own recent negative encounters with other Wikipedia editors, although I hadn't yet stumbled upon the Wikipedia policies on canvassing, etc., that apparently preclude any disclosure on this list of such experiences in a potentially identifiable manner. Having learned of that policy from reading this list's archives, I'm accordingly using an email account not associated with my Wikipedia user account, and I'm not disclosing my Wikipedia user name, so as not to arouse any concerns that I might be canvassing for support concerning that situation, which I'm not. In fact, I've even concluded that it's not worth the aggravation of pursuing Wikipedia's dispute resolution process, which from reading through **those** archives has impressed me as likely to be little more than an exercise in futility (if not also masochism!). I'm certainly neither fragile nor easily intimidated, but I prefer not to waste my valuable free time on such exercises, so I've now stopped editing Wikipedia and -- with one foot out the door, the other soon to follow -- am posting to this list now only because I hadn't seen anything its archives that expressed anything close to some of my own thoughts about a few of the topics discussed, which might perhaps be of some value to at least some of you who plan to continue in this effort. By way of background, I'm one of those older staying-at-home professional mothers Sarah Stierch had suggested in February might constitute a potentially fruitful demographic for female recruitment. I'm certainly no geek, although I've picked up just enough basic HTML code along the way so as not to find Wikipedia's coding basics unduly daunting -- as long as I had the MoS Cheat Sheet handy. Well, aside from formatting references... I made my first few edits not quite 18 months ago, I believe, to an article about a park system I'd just been reading about, to which I made a few gnome-like corrections without blowing the place up accidentally or attracting notice. With that success in hand, I started drafting an article about a superb all-female dance company that a niece had recently introduced me to. After seeing them perform and coming to share her enthusiasm, I tried to learn a little more about their history, discovered there was no comprehensive article about them I could find anywhere online (although they would clearly and objectively satisfy WP's notability criteria), and decided that drafting one myself could be a useful exercise in teaching myself Wikipedia's coding and style conventions, while eventually benefiting others with the fruits of my research. I got about half-way finished with it in my userspace (utilizing the Article Wizard), then had to abandon the draft (and Wikipedia) a few days later due to some serious health problems one of my children developed unexpectedly. I didn't return again until two months ago, when a discussion elsewhere pointed me to another Wikipedia article (about whose subject I knew quite a bit) that was seriously deficient, so I signed in again for the first time in 16 months or so, added a number of references to that article, expanded it a bit and began wikifying it without generating any controversy or blowing the place up accidentally. I then encountered an egregious usage error a few weeks later in another Wikipedia article that had badly muddled a sentence's meaning, and corrected it, again without generating any controversy. I then checked for similar misuses of that and another commonly misused word on Wikipedia, discovered hundreds of examples, and so began correcting them in gnome-like fashion over the next month or so while watching films with my daughter after school and/or evenings and
[Gendergap] New Dragons Guide 2: My New York City Wikipedia Social Meet up
http://www.dragonsearchmarketing.com/blog/guide-2-new-york-city-wikipedia-meetup/ Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
It is on the English Wikipedia that an attempt was made to draw firm lines regarding civility; though it has partially failed. Our efforts were even mentioned in The New York Times, although, when I searched I found this: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/09/technology/09blog.html Which is interesting in its own right. This was the one I was looking for: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/weekinreview/29cohen.html Fred Guess we need lots more people on Commons, too, who do not tolerate bigotry towards women On 5/26/2011 8:01 PM, Béria Lima wrote: carol, en.wiki aproved that, Commons didn't. You can't use a rule from one wiki in another. IF - and that is a BIG if, if commons community approve such kind of rules, you people can remove all comments you can find Until there, is censure, and you people will not do it while i'm there to watch commons RC. _ /Béria Lima/ Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Please , a question on deleted article SP Migrantas on women´s empowermente
I've changed this block to allow account creation under a new name. If a
new account is created the user should do some other editing besides just
promoting their own organization, and, of course, not copy text.
It is OK to promote an organization or viewpoint; the problem arises when
you go too far and the article is simply advertising rather than an
article about the subject.
Fred
Just for reference, the relevant guidelines are:
Unambiguous use of a name or URL of a company, group or product as a
username is generally not permitted, and users who adopt such a username
may
be blocked if their editing behavior appears to be promotional. However,
users who adopt such usernames but who are not editing problematically
should not be summarily blocked if their edits are otherwise
constructive;
instead, they should be gently but firmly encouraged to change their
username.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Usernames_for_administrator_attention/Instructions
Unambiguous use of a name or URL of a company, group or product as a
username is generally not permitted.
Users who adopt such a username and engage in inappropriately promotional
behaviors in articles about the company, group, or product, are usually
blocked.
Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically
in
related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently
encouraged to change their username.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Username#Company.2Fgroup_names
That blocking policy sometimes comes across as a bit harsh. It is always
better to have a word with the editor first, rather than block them
outright.
Andreas
--- On Fri, 20/5/11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Please , a question on deleted article SP
Migrantas on women´s empowermente
To: fredb...@fairpoint.net, Increasing female participation in
Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Friday, 20 May, 2011, 15:13
Dear,
I would like to draw your attention to the history
of article
migrantas
an initiative in Berlin on the empowerment of
migrant women, that was
deleted by the concept autopromotion and later by
the attribution of
irrelevance.Men and women worked for improving it
but it seems without
results.It would be good to have some suggestions
on that.best regards,
Patricia
    (del/undel) 15:12, April 7,
2011 JamesBWatson (talk | contribs |
block) deleted Migrantas â (G11: Unambiguous
advertising or
promotion: and WP:CSD#G12: copyright infringement of
http://www.balsas.cc/project-migrantasorg-looking-dialogue-pictograms/)
(view/restore)
There was only one edit, the edit by Migrantas-Berlin
creating it.
That's the English Wikipedia.
Fred
For example do a google search for Each drawing is shown
and commented
upon within the group which is a sentence in the deleted
article. It
gets three hits, for example:
http://www.grassrootsfeminism.net/cms/node/310
I think what needs to be done is to do the article over
again without
doing the extensive word for word copying. It seems
notable. As to
Unambiguous advertising or promotion there was only one
editor, who
also was blocked. creation of that article seems to be
their only edit:
  (del/undel) 15:22, April 7, 2011 JamesBWatson
(talk | contribs |
block) blocked Migrantas-Berlin (talk | contribs) (account
creation
blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite â
({{spamusernameblock}}) (unblock | change block)
This block is within the rules as the user name is the name
of the
project they were promoting in their only edit. They can
create an
account with a different name.
Fred
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841 Coming up with stuff old women like would actually be a good idea, but I don't think thecontributor meant it that way. One misinformed user is not a climate of misogyny; and I must say, other than one user, now banned, I've never encountered agism on our projects. Although sometimes things older people know about are not understood or appreciated by a crew of younger people. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54 Andreas, Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that. That is my last warning This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss. I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it. This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then featuring them on the main page. You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when discussions are evaluated. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
Fred, as I've already noted, the offending comment was apparently *not*eliminated from the final tally of the votes made by George Chernilevsky, though omitting it would not have changed the outcome of the vote. Nepenthe It should not have been considered. That is our standard practice with inane reasons. In the background is the question of whether something should have been done. What would be appropriate? A private note, a note on the users talk page? A warning? Removal of the remark from the discussion? Deletion of the edit? Suppression of the edit? Perhaps a discussion of the remark at the Village Pump on Commons? We do have a deletion reason WP:RD2 Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material that has little/no encyclopedic or project value and/or violates our Biographies of living people policy. This includes slurs, smears, and grossly offensive material of little or no encyclopedic value, but not mere factual statements, and not ordinary incivility, personal attacks or conduct accusations. When attack pages or pages with grossly improper titles are deleted, the page names may also be removed from the delete and page move logs. I think this falls within ordinary incivility, but someone might have a different opinion. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
Could we agree that a decision not to feature a medicore and non-notable piece of original art that offers no or little educational value is _not_ censorhip? And could we agree that featuring a medicore and non-notable piece of original art that offers no or little educational value, just because it has tits in it, is questionable? No, the image had political content, read policy for Commons, as an allegory of Liberty. Bare breasts, although usually somewhat smaller breasts, are standard in images of Liberty, at least French, or European ones, see File:1672 Gérard de Lairesse - Allegory of the Freedom of Trade.jpg You keep saying, just because it has tits in it. That is specious. See the author's note on the description of the image, Author: Niabot, because commons should stay free Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way). _ *Béria Lima* So where is that discussion? I found Commons:Sexual content and Help:Sexual content and its talk page. But what we're talking about here is not content, but behavior, a sexist remark. Is that being discussed anywhere? Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere, whatever was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind. Sarah So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior. The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who feel they are being treated unfairly. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere, whatever was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind. So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior. The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who feel they are being treated unfairly. I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the sense that the poster thought it appropriate to post it. Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do see a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass without comment simply means they'll never stop. We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of the content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In the course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made that tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she was, and how he wanted to have her babies. I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel) that I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something about me, rather than about them. I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I did say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather than screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about it. Not make a fuss. So that felt kind of depressing. Sarah Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate feedback effectively. A polite note fails. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
On May 18, 2011, at 12:47 PM, Sarah wrote: I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on talk asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was and remain grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as a matter of courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter of courtesy. I wanted people to recognize that they were politically unacceptable. Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I really wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end. Eventually it did die down and a couple of other editors stepped in, and one of the earlier ones apologized, so it was okay. But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud. I've thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then people will cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments are suddenly not permitted, and who is to judge whether they're offensive, and will argue that not all women agree on definitions of sexism anyway. So it felt like too much of an uphill struggle even to begin it. This is the struggle of social justice issues on a wider scale, in many ways-- how can we address the -isms of the world in a way that enables processing and change to happen, versus pushing them further underground? In some ways, seeing terrible behavior is the unfortunate and painful reminder that there is work to be done... it's a balancing act that few have been able to pull off in the last couple decades, I feel. In any case, Sarah, I'm with you on this. You explain the challenges and frustrations well, in a way that I think represents how many previously-marginalized voices feel coming into these spaces. dz Actually one of those previously-marginalized voices is that of socially inept geeks who have little contact with women and are unaware that there is even an issue. They are clever little devils though and will learn quickly if they receive consistent feedback. We just need to make sure they get it. This: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfroschdiff=88991389oldid=88542780 is a good example of taking it home to them. Fred Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Advice for BLP situation (possibly off-topic)
Hey all, Apologies if this isn't the appropriate list/discussion to post to; I learned a lot by following the last BLP discussion, so I'm hoping to get some advice here. It's a question that as a technology consultant I'm asked a lot, and I don't have the greatest answer... I have a friend colleague, a popular young NYC feminist, who's got a Wikipedia page. She's often been the subject of multiple troll/flame/stalking/etc wars, online and off, for many years now-- she was a favorite target of Anon and 4chan/b/ at one time, to give you an idea. Her page is rather sparse, but often people swing by and add inflammatory and other negative material to it. Since she's not *that* well known, her page isn't watched/edited by enough people to keep that in check, and she's often left frustrated that this material figures so prominently in her profile. I told her the best thing for her to do is find people in her community who can add more biographical information and really flesh out her page, so that anything negative has at least more balance to it. Since her community is mostly women, we butt up against the gendergap issue... there just aren't that many women (esp feminists) who are into this work. She's asked on multiple occasions if I or other consultants can be paid edit the page for her, but I advised that this not kosher in the community. So, she's feeling extremely stuck. She's not supposed to edit her own page, she doesn't have a strong enough community to maintain her page, and she can't pay anyone to do it. What to do? I understand, and she understands, that negativity is just part of the Wikipedia world; but having it be so prominent, and most of it being inflammatory, is just... ugh. So much of her work has been extremely positive and productive, I just hate to see her being recorded in history this way. Any advice is greatly appreciated. dz Not off topic at all. The page can be protected by any administrator, fully or partially as the situation may require, likewise any administrator can remove BLP violations from the article's editing history, and oversighters can suppress most serious problems from the view of even the administrators, email User:Oversight She can edit her own page with respect to plain error, or to remove obvious BLP problem, as can feminist friends, or indeed anyone who notices a problem. And she, or other concerned users can bring up problems on the talk page of the article. There is a sense here that because she is a notable feminist that using the usual techniques of asking the general community for help would be ineffective; that assumption is both false and untested. However, not knowing who she is, or the nature of the problem, makes assistance impossible. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Advice for BLP situation (possibly off-topic)
Hi Deanna, There is some basic advice for people wishing to edit (or complain about) their ownbiographies here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notable_person_survival_kit Otherwise, drop me or some of the established women editors on this list a private note identifying the article, along with some sources that could be used to balance the article. Andreas Yes, I keep forgetting this is a publicly accessible list. Please drop me a note if you want me to work on the problem, or use Wikipedia mail to User:Oversight if the problem needs immediate attention. Fred --- On Wed, 11/5/11, Deanna Zandt dea...@deannazandt.com wrote: From: Deanna Zandt dea...@deannazandt.com Subject: [Gendergap] Advice for BLP situation (possibly off-topic) To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 17:58 Hey all, Apologies if this isn't the appropriate list/discussion to post to; I learned a lot by following the last BLP discussion, so I'm hoping to get some advice here. It's a question that as a technology consultant I'm asked a lot, and I don't have the greatest answer... I have a friend colleague, a popular young NYC feminist, who's got a Wikipedia page. She's often been the subject of multiple troll/flame/stalking/etc wars, online and off, for many years now-- she was a favorite target of Anon and 4chan/b/ at one time, to give you an idea. Her page is rather sparse, but often people swing by and add inflammatory and other negative material to it. Since she's not *that* well known, her page isn't watched/edited by enough people to keep that in check, and she's often left frustrated that this material figures so prominently in her profile. I told her the best thing for her to do is find people in her community who can add more biographical information and really flesh out her page, so that anything negative has at least more balance to it. Since her community is mostly women, we butt up against the gendergap issue... there just aren't that many women (esp feminists) who are into this work. She's asked on multiple occasions if I or other consultants can be paid edit the page for her, but I advised that this not kosher in the community. So, she's feeling extremely stuck. She's not supposed to edit her own page, she doesn't have a strong enough community to maintain her page, and she can't pay anyone to do it. What to do? I understand, and she understands, that negativity is just part of the Wikipedia world; but having it be so prominent, and most of it being inflammatory, is just... ugh. So much of her work has been extremely positive and productive, I just hate to see her being recorded in history this way. Any advice is greatly appreciated. dz -=-=-=-=-Deanna Zandtdeanna@deannazandt.comSite: http://www.deannazandt.com/Twitter: http://twitter.com/randomdeannaFacebook: Public: http://facebook.com/deannazandtFacebook: Personal: http://facebook.com/deannaz Author: Share This! How You Will Change the World with Social Networking, Berrett-Koehler, June 2010http://www.sharethischange.com/ Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. -- Oscar Wilde -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
Fred, I agree with you. Especially with handkraft information, there won't be 'references'. You can't reference what your grandmother or great-grandmother taught you. Same is true with fairytales or folklore. I'd like to post some of the Irish tales my grandmother taught me. I haven't seen them published. It would be a shame for them to die because some bonehead decided there should be a published 'reference'. Which means I won't be able to post what I know, what isn't in any of the hundreds of sewing books I own, from the 19th century til 2011. So, I'm rethinking my plans of eventual posting. - Susan Wikibooks for most of that; Wikisource if it's published and in the public domain. You're right to not fight. Plenty of opportunity for that will come along concerning important issues. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 13:35, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Wow, the talk page is insane, and is one reason why I gave up in the beginning. I might take a stab on my own userspace to re-write this article. I'm somewhat addicted fixing crappy BLP's. Perhaps I'll send it your way (here) before I post it. Could someone say again which article and talk page we're discussing? I've looked at this one -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper -- but can't see the issue. Ditto with the talk page. Sarah Here is the removal of the information about knitting: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 Removed again: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 This is where it was put in: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=prevoldid=341488635 Seems harmless enough, and hardly requires a substantial reference. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] What to do about sexism when we see it on WP?
However, I also do worry about double standards. For example, earlier somewhere someone suggested we visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochre where a barebreasted woman was used to illustrate the use of it as a body paint in Africa. I made the point that I really would like to know if men were painted and if the penis also was painted on men. Something tells me under that rule someone might have jumped all over me for innuendo since innuendo is in the mind of the behold. I actually in my mind had a heavy innuendo intention, but objectively speaking it probably didn't look that way. Others might have seen it as more of an innuendo than even I meant. So bottom line, whether or not it's debated, i think a little more detail needs to be added to make it clear that strong and intentional innuendo is a problem. Yes, sexual innuendo is a rather ambiguous term, although certain expressions obviously fall within its definition, and not just in the mind of the beholder. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] What to do about sexism when we see it on WP?
I saw an incident recently on WP that's fairly common, but it's not clear to me what we should do about it, if anything. A woman editor did something that a few male editors didn't like, and she was taken to task for it. In the course of the discussion, the Wikipedia biography of a woman was mentioned and linked to, and her photograph showed her as attractive. One of the men taking part in the discussion said something positive about the image -- then he added that policy prevented him from going into detail about his feelings about it. (I won't quote him so as not to identify him, but it was words to that effect.) It's a remark typical of young men, and he almost certainly intended no harm. But the effect on me as a reader was that it undermined the woman taking part in the discussion. She also felt that way, and said so. The response was that her objection was laughable. What should we do when we witness this kind of thing? I've never said anything in these situations, because I see them so often, and there's a risk of turning it into a dramafest. I also know that some people, men and women both, would say it's too minor a thing to comment on. So -- should we be saying something, and if so what and how, or is it best to ignore? Sarah Please look at Wikipedia:Revision_deletion#Criteria_for_redaction particularly: 2. Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material that has little/no encyclopedic or project value and/or violates our Biographies of living people policy. This includes slurs, smears, and grossly offensive material of little or no encyclopedic value, but not mere factual statements, and not ordinary incivility, personal attacks or conduct accusations. When attack pages or pages with grossly improper titles are deleted, the page names may also be removed from the delete and page move logs. 3. Purely disruptive material that is of little or no relevance or merit to the project. This includes allegations, grossly inappropriate threats or attacks, browser-crashing or malicious HTML, shock pages, phishing pages, known virus proliferating pages, and links to web pages that disparage or threaten some person or entity and serve no other valid purpose, but not mere spam links. but keep in mind: A certain low degree of inappropriate or disruptive posting is normal within a large community. In general, only material that meets the criteria below should be deleted. Users should consider whether simply reverting or ignoring would be sufficient in the circumstances. If deletion is needed, only redact what is necessary (i.e. leave non-harmful fields visible), and give a clear reason for the removal. The community's decision was that RevisionDelete should not be used without prior clear consensus for ordinary incivility, attacks, or for claims of editorial misconduct. The wider community may need to fully review these at the time and in future, even if offensive. If whatever it is poses a risk of turning it into a dramafest it is not within the normal range of inappropriate or disruptive posting, as in this case there may be a need to not single out the offender, therefore it may be useful to use Wikipedia mail to bring the matter to the attention of OTRS, which is the people with the oversight tool. Even if suppression is not appropriate deletion can still be done and a quiet and private warning given. So, if it is serious, in your opinion, (tell them why if you think it is) email User:Oversight https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Oversight Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
I don't edit Wikipedia because I've never taken the time to learn the system and I'm afraid I'll screw up. I assume it would feel like making a big mistake in a newspaper and having the whole neighborhood scoff, and I think that becomes a part of my Wikipedia profile forever and ever. I'd like to find a YouTube video to walk me through basic involvement. If it's that cute guy from Portland who is now a Wikipedia community manager presenting it, well all the better. I could also be encouraged to edit if the community had an offline component that included meeting for microbrews. Thanks, Carissa One of the original meanings of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules addressed that. It's current formulation is laconic and opaque to anyone but an insider. The original formulation was If rules make you nervous and depressed, and not desirous of participating in the Wiki, then ignore them and go about your business. I remember getting off to a pretty rough start. As to beer, I think you need to live in London for that. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
On 3/15/11 9:34 AM, Nicole Willson wrote: Lastly, I had a question about Fred's statement about rules. If following rules isn't that important in the beginning, how come I have only gotten feedback once about what I've done wrong with date formatting and never gotten a message about what I've done right on Wikipedia? I've made at least 150 edits, so one of them must have been good, right? Instead I get a message about date formatting (which someone else could probably fix easily) and told to look at the MoS (which assumes that I know that it stands for Manual of Style). It seems to me that there may be a disconnect here. Yes, there is definitely a disconnect. I proposed adding some positive user feedback templates to the widely-used Twinkle gadget a while back, but was shot down due to concerns that it would be abused(?!). So instead, I created a new WikiLove user script and have proposed it as a new gadget. This script makes it just as easy to add barnstars, cookies, kittens, cupcakes, etc. to user talk pages as it is to add warning templates via Twinkle. The response to my proposal was baffling: doesn't seem to have any practical purpose, I don't think most people would be pleased to see an increase in barnstar-giving, the current level of barnstar-giving is sufficient. Apparently the community puts little to no values in positive user feedback. This is probably a symptom of the Eternal September effect mentioned by Sue in the March Update. I think the culture can change, but it's going to take a sustained and concerted effort. Kaldari Obviously a gendered response... Perhaps a backslapping or high-fiving bot... Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] The Coalface
http://en.korea.com/blog/blogs/wikipedia-project-groundbreaking-feminist-author-and-painter-na-hye-sok-gets-a-cleanup/ http://www.ktlit.com/korean-literature/wikipedia-project-groundbreaking-feminist-author-and-painter-na-hye-sok-gets-a-cleanup?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=feedutm_campaign=Feed%3A+ktlit%2Fkkxb+%28Morning+Calm%29 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Na_Hye-sokaction=history Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Why women and wikis do mix...
On Signpost: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2011-03-07/In_the_news http://lola-pr.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-women-wikis-do-mix.html Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] the terms chicks and fellows; systemic bias noticeboard
Is it appropriate for the Foundation to refer to women as chicks and use the title fellow for staff positions? I'm not adamantly opposed to either, but I am convinced we can do much better. On the issue of noticeboards, does anyone know of any actual reasons that any noticeboard has not tended to help solve the problem it was intended to address? All of them seem to have been relatively successful to me, and certainly have been lesser drama magnets than the general WP:ANI noticeboard which they tend to relieve by moving quality responsibilities from the administrators to the wider community. It seems to me that the English Wikipedia would be far better with a systematic bias noticeboard to cover both gender and geographic concerns. I've raised the general question of a gender-based notice board at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Gender_issues Women chose Wikichix themselves and can change it if they wish. Fellow is pretty much standard; what would be your alternative? Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Women's issues noticeboard
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: What's wrong with drama, Steven? If the issue is creating a dramatic situation for people, how would you have them express it, neutrally? Since passion is the temperature of emotion, shouldn't we get a measure of it? Marc Riddell Constant drama and fighting is one of the big things driving many people, including women, away from Wikipedia. That's what's wrong with it. -- Steven Walling Fellow at Wikimedia Foundation wikimediafoundation.org And leaving the field to them is a solution? We need to candidly discuss issues on wiki. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] fostering better communication on differences
Perhaps there are already adequate guidelines as well as resources regarding on line conflict and resolution, but one resource might be the Public Conversations Project in Cambridge which has all sorts of resources for better communications - they managed a six month online conversation with about 25 people with varying views on abortion. I am sure they could help as could many other such groups. Frances Kissling, visiting scholar Center for Bioethics, UPenn 202 368 3954 Ten years of conversation on abortion: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Talk:Abortiondir=prevaction=history Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
