Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on, Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-20 Thread The Richardsons 

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: Fred Bauderfredb...@fairpoint.net
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on
Wikimedia Commons
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Message-ID:
44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squir...@webmail.fairpoint.net
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1



  On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauderfredb...@fairpoint.net
  wrote:




My point is this: a significant number of women (current and

  potential

editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere,
whatever
was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some*do*  mind.






  So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
  sure
  you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
  heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.

  The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
  sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
  who
  feel they are being treated unfairly.



  I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
  sense
  that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.

  Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
  see
  a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
  without comment simply means they'll never stop.

  We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
  the
  content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
  the
  course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
  that
  tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
  different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
  was,
  and how he wanted to have her babies.

  I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
  that
  I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
  wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
  about me, rather than about them.

  I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
  did
  say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
  than
  screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
  suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
  remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
  challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
  it.
  Not make a fuss.

  So that felt kind of depressing.

  Sarah

Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.

Fred





Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to scream it from 
the rooftops because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do that if I 
were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat things. That's 
my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I don't contribute especially often), 
and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be sure to say something.
--With well wishes.
RDW2210


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe 
This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading Commons:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841
Coming up with stuff old women like would actually be a good idea, but I 
don't think thecontributor meant it that way.
At this deletion request
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Paleis_lange_voorhout.jpg
I pointed out that the creator of the manga image placed it on a photograph of 
the Escher museum, making it appear his image appeared there. This is 
deceptive, and against Commons image guidelines. The only response to the 
deletion request so far is a Keep.
The request to remove featured status from the Edge of the World manga image, 
startedindependently of our discussions by a Russian Wikipedia editor, is 
heading for a Keep:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/removal/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
Here is the original nomination:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
The image failed to achieve featured status in German Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kandidaten_f%C3%BCr_exzellente_Bilder/Archiv2011/1#On_the_edge_.E2.80.93_2._Januar_bis_16._Januar_-_Contra
7 for, 8 against, which based on objective criteria of artistic and educational 
merit is still kindto the image.
I am thinking of writing a letter to the Commons Village Pump to ask the 
community to takea long hard look at its basic competence. 
Sue, any ideas?
Andreas


--- On Tue, 17/5/11, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote:

From: Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 16:19



  


  
  
Hi dz,



Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been really
busy the past few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California,
and GLAM related activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I
haven't had time to sit down and get my stuff together for the
HOW-TO. But, I'd love to add you to our HOW-TO gang if you like.



=)



Sarah





On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote:

  

  
  I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of
  last week was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about
  access... having the right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and
  aid. How to make that key more widely available, or second
  nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. In any
  case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general
  from that noob perspective.
  

  
  

  
  

  
  cheers
  dz

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  

  


  












  On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
  

  On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM,
Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com
wrote:


  

   On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth
wrote:


  Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete


  
  I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for
  Wiki. I do want to see all of these topics covered -
  and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where do we
  start? ;-) 
  
  

  
  Hi Sarah,
  

  
  I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And
anyone else).
  

  
  My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in
identifying the problem -- or rather, evaluating the
collection of interrelated issues, and determining where
it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to
me

Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Béria Lima 
Andreas,

Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
that.
That is my last warning
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Andreas Kolbe jayen...@yahoo.com

   This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading
 Commons:


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841Coming
 up with stuff old women like would actually be a good idea, but I don't
 think the
 contributor meant it that way.

 At this deletion request


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Paleis_lange_voorhout.jpg

 I pointed out that the creator of the manga image placed it on a photograph
 of the Escher
 museum, making it appear his image appeared there. This is deceptive, and
 against
 Commons image guidelines. The only response to the deletion request so far
 is a Keep.

 The request to remove featured status from the Edge of the World manga
 image, started
 independently of our discussions by a Russian Wikipedia editor, is heading
 for a Keep:


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/removal/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

 Here is the original nomination:


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

 The image failed to achieve featured status in German Wikipedia:


 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kandidaten_f%C3%BCr_exzellente_Bilder/Archiv2011/1#On_the_edge_.E2.80.93_2._Januar_bis_16._Januar_-_Contra

 7 for, 8 against, which based on objective criteria of artistic and
 educational merit is still kind
 to the image.

 I am thinking of writing a letter to the Commons Village Pump to ask the
 community to take
 a long hard look at its basic competence.

 Sue, any ideas?

 Andreas



 --- On *Tue, 17/5/11, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com* wrote:


 From: Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
 Commons
 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 16:19


 Hi dz,

 Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been *really* busy the past
 few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California, and GLAM related
 activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I haven't had time to sit
 down and get my stuff together for the HOW-TO. But, I'd love to add you to
 our HOW-TO gang if you like.

 =)

 Sarah


 On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote:


 I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last week
 was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... having the
 right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to make that key more
 widely available, or second nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog
 about it soon. In any case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in
 general from that noob perspective.



 cheers
 dz


  On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

 On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch 
 sa...@sarahstierch.comhttp://mc/compose?to=sa...@sarahstierch.com
  wrote:

  On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

 Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
 -Pete

 I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to
 see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where
 do we start? ;-)


 Hi Sarah,

 I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).

 My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem --
 or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining
 where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:

 (1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of
 unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
 (2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial
 values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons;
 (3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to
 understand and poorly documented.

 How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently work?
 I think that process will point the way toward recommending a solution.

 I've set up a page for this project, if you're game!
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD

 -Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe 
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote:
From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54

Andreas, 
Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that.
That is my last warning

This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In the 
opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly 
symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss.
This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of 
comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and then 
featuring them on the main page. Or creating categories like People using 
vacuum cleaners.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_using_vacuum_cleaners
In my view, it's a basic community competence issue. Andreas



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Thomas Koenig 
Beria,
 Original-Nachricht 
 Datum: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:54:57 +0100
 From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
 To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on WikimediaCommons

 Andreas,
 
 Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
 that.

Closing the gender gap is a political issue. How else other than canvassing are 
you gonna further that issue? Par ordre du mufti? You yourself rightfully 
criticized a WMF staff member for attempting to do so. Thus, this list is 
definitely a venue for canvassing.

Thomas aka fossa
-- 
NEU: FreePhone - kostenlos mobil telefonieren und surfen!   
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 
 This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading
 Commons:
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpgaction=historysubmitdiff=54489618oldid=54483841
 Coming up with stuff old women like would actually be a good idea, but
 I don't think thecontributor meant it that way.

One misinformed user is not a climate of misogyny; and I must say, other
than one user, now banned, I've never encountered agism on our projects.
Although sometimes things older people know about are not understood or
appreciated by a crew of younger people.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 
 --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote:
 From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
 Commons
 To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54

 Andreas,
 Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
 that.
 That is my last warning

 This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects.
 In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is
 profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss.

I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it.

 This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
 of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and
 then featuring them on the main page.

You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
discussions are evaluated.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Nepenthe 
Fred, as I've already noted, the offending comment was apparently
*not*eliminated from the final tally of the votes made by George
Chernilevsky,
though omitting it would not have changed the outcome of the vote.

Nepenthe

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

  --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote:
  From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
  Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
  Commons
  To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
  gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
  Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54
 
  Andreas,
  Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
  that.
  That is my last warning
 
  This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects.
  In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is
  profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss.

 I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it.

  This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
  of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and
  then featuring them on the main page.

 You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
 discussions are evaluated.

 Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe 
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
 From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia 
 Commons
 To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:23
  --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima
 beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
 wrote:
  From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
  Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the
 Day on Wikimedia
  Commons
  To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia
 projects
  gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
  Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54

  This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in
 Foundation projects.
  In the opinion of several contributors here, this
 specific issue is
  profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set
 up to discuss.
 
 I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from
 it.


Could we agree that a decision not to feature a medicore and non-notable piece 
of original art that offers no or little educational value is _not_ censorhip?

And could we agree that featuring a medicore and non-notable piece of original 
art that offers no or little educational value, just because it has tits in it, 
is questionable?


  This includes Commons selecting images for featured
 status on the basis
  of comments like I like her big tits, rather than
 artistic merit, and
  then featuring them on the main page.
 
 You've been informed several times that such remarks are
 discounted when
 discussions are evaluated.


You have been informed several times that the comment was not discounted.

Those who supported featured status for the image explained their reasons as 
follows:

1. Support. Kawaii :) (Japanese for cute or charming)

2. Support I like it. Well it's manga so the colors or landscape do not have to 
make sense ;-)

3. Support

4. Support Superb work

5. Support i like her big tits :-) 

6. Support i know that it was very much of work for the user. i have seen the 
first lines of it and can see now the result: a wunderful work.

7. Support - very good work.

8. strong  Support I have seen this work evolve and it is brilliant. Keep up 
the good work niabot! 

The end result was 8 support, 2 oppose, 2 neutral = featured.

Discussion here: 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

Personally, I found those who commented or opposed a bit more articulate than 
those who supported in that discussion.

Andreas


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 
 Fred, as I've already noted, the offending comment was apparently
 *not*eliminated from the final tally of the votes made by George
 Chernilevsky,
 though omitting it would not have changed the outcome of the vote.

 Nepenthe

It should not have been considered. That is our standard practice with
inane reasons.

In the background is the question of whether something should have been
done. What would be appropriate? A private note, a note on the users
talk page? A warning? Removal of the remark from the discussion? Deletion
of the edit? Suppression of the edit? Perhaps a discussion of the remark
at the Village Pump on Commons?

We do have a deletion reason WP:RD2

Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material that has little/no
encyclopedic or project value and/or violates our Biographies of living
people policy. This includes slurs, smears, and grossly offensive
material of little or no encyclopedic value, but not mere factual
statements, and not ordinary incivility, personal attacks or conduct
accusations. When attack pages or pages with grossly improper titles are
deleted, the page names may also be removed from the delete and page move
logs.

I think this falls within ordinary incivility, but someone might have a
different opinion.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe 
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote:From: Béria 
Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:19

The community is already discussing this matter Andreas.
 
What you are doing is, since your vote is not going the way you want (the 
picture, apparentely, will remain as a FP) you are canvassing votes here, so 
people can go there are vote to delist the image. 

 
That, my dear, is pure canvass, and is not allowed in any project.
 
So, again, stop do that.

Dear Beria,
You would have a leg to stand on if anyone, at all, who had read my posts 
on this or any other mailing list, had voted in my favour in these 
communitydiscussions.
I am not aware that anyone has. Of the 5 people who have voted to delist,I do 
not recognise a single name from the mailing lists. And I believe ifanyone here 
had decided to vote, they would be experienced enough, andhave enough 
integrity, to disclose along with their vote that they becameaware of 
the discussion through a mailing list post.  
Further:
If list members had commented, which they have not, and the vote were 
goingagainst you, which it is not, you would be well within your rights to 
contest the result, and ask the community to look into any undue effect mailing 
listdiscussions may have had on the discussion. However, nothing like this 
hashappened.
As it is, you are out of line to threaten me on my Commons user page 
for participating in discussions on this list. 
Regards,Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 

 Could we agree that a decision not to feature a medicore and non-notable
 piece of original art that offers no or little educational value is _not_
 censorhip?

 And could we agree that featuring a medicore and non-notable piece of
 original art that offers no or little educational value, just because it
 has tits in it, is questionable?

No, the image had political content, read policy for Commons, as an
allegory of Liberty. Bare breasts, although usually somewhat smaller
breasts, are standard in images of Liberty, at least French, or European
ones, see File:1672 Gérard de Lairesse - Allegory of the Freedom of
Trade.jpg

You keep saying, just because it has tits in it. That is specious. See
the author's note on the description of the image, Author: Niabot,
because commons should stay free“

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe 
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia 
 Commons
 To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 15:23

 No, the image had political content, read policy for
 Commons, as an
 allegory of Liberty. Bare breasts, although usually
 somewhat smaller
 breasts, are standard in images of Liberty, at least
 French, or European
 ones, see File:1672 Gérard de Lairesse - Allegory of the
 Freedom of
 Trade.jpg


I am sure the editor who said I like her big tits had that political 
message in mind.

 
 You keep saying, just because it has tits in it. That is
 specious. See
 the author's note on the description of the image, Author:
 Niabot,
 because commons should stay free“


I have honestly not seen Niabot claim that he was trying to riff on 
traditional bare-breasted representations of Liberty. The only person I 
have seen make that claim is you. Even if true, the question is whether
the artistic, historic and educational merit of this particular riff
on the Liberty figure warrant featuring this image. In my opinion, they
do not, and I honestly suspect any of these concerns were way over the
heads of those who voted for it.

Niabot has a recent habit of signing his images with a political tag line. 
The same because commons should stay free tag line is present in this 
close-up of the cat in the image:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version_(kitty_crop).jpg
 

Here (*deservedly* a featured picture by him), he says: “Niabot, because 
wikimedia commons lost his roots”.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anime_Girl.png

Personally I disagree with the statement, as the roots of Commons are not 
manga, or sites like DeviantArt, but in this case the image is deservedly 
featured.

The same commons has lost its roots tag line is also on these images: 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dojikko.png
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Futanari.png

I don't think the author's tag line affects image quality one way or the
other.

Andreas

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Sarah 
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:23, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:


  This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
  of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and
  then featuring them on the main page.

 You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
 discussions are evaluated.


How do you know the comments were discounted, Fred? And that's not really
the point anyway. The comments were made. People felt it was okay to make
them. That's the culture we're trying to change.

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Béria Lima 
I'm only warning a commons user that canvassing is not accepted. And since
you need to be warned on wiki, i did that. And btw, you don't recognize any
name, but I do (i will not mention here because that would be rude to then)

So, again, you will stop that idiot crusade against this picture and we can
move on to discuss the original propose of that list, or we will need to
change that to the Adm noticeboard in commons?
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Andreas Kolbe jayen...@yahoo.com

   --- On *Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt* wrote:

 From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
 Commons
 To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:19


  The community is already discussing this matter Andreas.

 What you are doing is, since your vote is not going the way you want (the
 picture, apparentely, will remain as a FP) you are canvassing votes here, so
 people can go there are vote to delist the image.

 That, my dear, is pure canvass, and is not allowed in any project.

 So, again, stop do that.


  Dear Beria,

 You would have a leg to stand on if anyone, at all, who had read my posts
 on
 this or any other mailing list, had voted in my favour in these community
 discussions.

 I am not aware that anyone has. Of the 5 people who have voted to delist,
 I do not recognise a single name from the mailing lists. And I believe if
 anyone here had decided to vote, they would be experienced enough, and
 have enough integrity, to disclose along with their vote that they became
 aware of the discussion through a mailing list post.

 Further:

 If list members had commented, which they have not, and the vote were going
 against you, which it is not, you would be well within your rights to
 contest the
 result, and ask the community to look into any undue effect mailing list
 discussions may have had on the discussion. However, nothing like this has
 happened.

 As it is, you are out of line to threaten me on my Commons user page for
 participating in discussions on this list.

 Regards,
 Andreas


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Béria Lima 
In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).

Create a cruzade against that image would not change anything. And btw, take
political, ideological or any other kind of ideas from a 5 words phrase
requires much imagination. Is not better ask the person what he meant by
that?
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com



  On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:23, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.netwrote:


  This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
  of comments like I like her big tits, rather than artistic merit, and
  then featuring them on the main page.

 You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
 discussions are evaluated.


 How do you know the comments were discounted, Fred? And that's not really
 the point anyway. The comments were made. People felt it was okay to make
 them. That's the culture we're trying to change.

 Sarah

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 
 In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
 change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).

 _
 *Béria Lima*

So where is that discussion? I found Commons:Sexual content and
Help:Sexual content and its talk page. But what we're talking about here
is not content, but behavior, a sexist remark. Is that being discussed
anywhere?

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Sarah 
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 09:45, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote:

 In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
 change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).

 Create a cruzade against that image would not change anything. And btw,
 take political, ideological or any other kind of ideas from a 5 words phrase
 requires much imagination. Is not better ask the person what he meant by
 that?


Hi Beria,

My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential
editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere, whatever
was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.

So they are an important five words. Behind them lies a long and sorry tale
of sexism and objectification of women, and people thinking it's okay to
write and behave that way.

Some of us on this list would like to see that culture change, bit by bit.
Hard to know how to do that, and I take your point that it's not going to
change by singling out these five words. On the other hand, if not these
five words, which words? Change comes in tiny steps, each one perhaps
insignificant in itself.

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 

 My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential
 editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere,
 whatever
 was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.

 Sarah

So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure
you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.

The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who
feel they are being treated unfairly.

Fred



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 
 On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
 wrote:


  My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
 potential
  editors) don't want to work in a I like the big tits atmosphere,
  whatever
  was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.



 So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
 sure
 you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
 heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.

 The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
 sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
 who
 feel they are being treated unfairly.


 I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
 sense
 that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.

 Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
 see
 a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
 without comment simply means they'll never stop.

 We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
 the
 content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
 the
 course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
 that
 tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
 different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
 was,
 and how he wanted to have her babies.

 I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
 that
 I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
 wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
 about me, rather than about them.

 I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
 did
 say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
 than
 screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
 suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
 remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
 challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
 it.
 Not make a fuss.

 So that felt kind of depressing.

 Sarah

Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Béria Lima 
not that i know Fred. And behaivor will be very difficult to fill in a
policy or guideline. but nothing prevent you from start a discussion about.
Be bold ;)
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt/
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net

  In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
  change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).

  _
  *Béria Lima*

 So where is that discussion? I found Commons:Sexual content and
 Help:Sexual content and its talk page. But what we're talking about here
 is not content, but behavior, a sexist remark. Is that being discussed
 anywhere?

 Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe 
--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
 From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net

  I am sure the editor who said I like her big tits
 had that political
  message in mind.
 
  Andreas
 
 OK, Einstein, what is the psychological significance of a
 bare-breasted
 Liberty, as opposed to a modestly draped Liberty? It IS a
 revolutionary
 symbol.


I am more interested in the psychological significance of the fact that
Bunnyfrosch's user talk in German Wikipedia,

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfrosch

which his Commons talk page redirects to, features multiple contributors 
(including the editor who wrote the Featured Article on BDSM in German
Wikipedia) requesting of him that he should please stop adding links to porn
images to German Wikipedia articles.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfrosch#Links_auf_Pornobilder

And more in that vein. 

I noticed that when I went to let him know, as a courtesy, that we were 
discussing his Support i like her big tits comment here. 

Andreas

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-18 Thread Fred Bauder 




 On May 18, 2011, at 12:47 PM, Sarah wrote:

 I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on
 talk asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was
 and remain grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as
 a matter of courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter
 of courtesy. I wanted people to recognize that they were politically
 unacceptable.

 Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I
 really wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end.
 Eventually it did die down and a couple of other editors stepped in,
 and one of the earlier ones apologized, so it was okay.

 But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud.
 I've thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then
 people will cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments
 are suddenly not permitted, and who is to judge whether they're
 offensive, and will argue that not all women agree on definitions of
 sexism anyway. So it felt like too much of an uphill struggle even to
 begin it.

 This is the struggle of social justice issues on a wider scale, in many
 ways-- how can we address the -isms of the world in a way that enables
 processing and change to happen, versus pushing them further underground?
 In some ways, seeing terrible behavior is the unfortunate and painful
 reminder that there is work to be done... it's a balancing act that few
 have been able to pull off in the last couple decades, I feel. In any
 case, Sarah, I'm with you on this. You explain the challenges and
 frustrations well, in a way that I think represents how many
 previously-marginalized voices feel coming into these spaces.


 dz

Actually one of those previously-marginalized voices is that of
socially inept geeks who have little contact with women and are unaware
that there is even an issue. They are clever little devils though and
will learn quickly if they receive consistent feedback. We just need to
make sure they get it. This:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfroschdiff=88991389oldid=88542780

is a good example of taking it home to them.

Fred

Fred



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-17 Thread Deanna Zandt 

I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last week was 
incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... having the right 
key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to make that key more widely 
available, or second nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. 
In any case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general from that 
noob perspective.



cheers
dz


On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

 On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com 
 wrote:
 On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
 Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
 -Pete
 I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to see 
 all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where do 
 we start? ;-) 
 
 Hi Sarah,
 
 I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).
 
 My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem -- or 
 rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining 
 where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:
 
 (1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of unnecessary 
 strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
 (2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial values 
 around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons;
 (3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to 
 understand and poorly documented.
 
 How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently work? I 
 think that process will point the way toward recommending a solution.
 
 I've set up a page for this project, if you're game! 
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD
 
 -Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-17 Thread Sarah Stierch 

Hi dz,

Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been /really/ busy the 
past few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California, and GLAM 
related activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I haven't had 
time to sit down and get my stuff together for the HOW-TO. But, I'd 
love to add you to our HOW-TO gang if you like.


=)

Sarah


On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote:


I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last 
week was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... 
having the right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to 
make that key more widely available, or second nature/common 
knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. In any case, I'd like to 
come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general from that noob perspective.




cheers
dz


On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch 
sa...@sarahstierch.com mailto:sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote:


On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete

I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do
want to see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in
anyway I can. Where do we start? ;-)


Hi Sarah,

I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).

My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the 
problem -- or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated 
issues, and determining where it's best to focus. The things that 
seem significant to me are:


(1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of 
unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
(2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of 
editorial values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on 
Commons;
(3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are 
difficult to understand and poorly documented.


How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently 
work? I think that process will point the way toward recommending a 
solution.


I've set up a page for this project, if you're game! 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD


-Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-16 Thread Béria Lima 

 *Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
 being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
 administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
 that's a staff action.*


That said, changed the picture without any discussion, only because some
people don't want to see a half-naked anime girl on Main Page (btw: What is
the problem with that picture? I'm a girl, and i'm not AT ALL offended for
see that in main page) was a act that NO ONE should do without consensus.
Not an adm, not an editor, not a staff.

And do that by abusing the tools WMF and the communitty gave you only made
everything even worse.

That said, i restored the original image of the day and would love if you
people decide if the picture should stay or not in main page ON COMMONS
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/16 Aaron Adrignola aaron.adrign...@gmail.com

 On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Neil Kandalgaonkar 
 ne...@wikimedia.orgwrote:

 I changed the picture. I'd like to note that I did this not owing to any
 'authority' I might have as a WMF employee, just as a regular person
 associated with Commons.


 Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
 being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
 administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
 that's a staff action.

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-16 Thread Andreas Kolbe 
--- On Mon, 16/5/11, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote:
From: Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 14:10


That
 said, changed the picture without any discussion, only because some 
people don't want to see a half-naked anime girl on Main Page (btw: What
 is the problem with that picture? I'm a girl, and i'm not AT ALL 
offended for see that in main page) was a act that NO ONE should do 
without consensus. Not an adm, not an editor, not a staff. 


And do that by abusing the tools WMF and the communitty gave you only made 
everything even worse. 

That
 said, i restored the original image of the day and would love if you 
people decide if the picture should stay or not in main page ON COMMONS

I still don't understand what that image that you restored is doing on the main 
page ofCommons. If I record an original, unpublished post-punk song with my 
completely non-notable garage band, will you feature that too on the main page, 
as an educational exampleof post-punk? If not, how is that image different?
Does Commons now provide free advertising for up-and-coming artists eager to 
makea name for themselves?
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-16 Thread Pete Forsyth 
In my opinion there's a large and pervasive problem behind today's controversy: 
in striking contrast to our core value of openness, it is very difficult to 
even *perceive* how important decisions like this are made. Both the technical 
and the editorial processes are pretty opaque to the average main page visitor.

I suspect there are ways the Commons pages relating to Picture of the Day could 
be improved to make it clearer to the reader how decisions are made, and how to 
meaningfully participate in those processes.

For instance, main page content could have a link named something like how did 
this get here? that would permit the reader to view the discussion that led to 
its inclusion on the main page. (This is just an off-the-cuff idea, to 
illustrate the general kind of usability changes I would like to explore.)

To put it another way, the issue behind today's controversy that interests me 
most is access. Increasing the ability of a large and diverse group to 
participate in important decisions (like what gets featured on the main Commons 
page) is something that would both honor the basic values of our project, and 
(I believe) support better content decisions in the future.

Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-16 Thread Sarah 
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:36, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote:

  If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what
 goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found out
 about this today, and I look forward to contributing:

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates

 One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the
 featured fictional person had big tits.


The breasts were indeed a factor, and one comment in favour was i like her
big tits.

The old discussion is here --
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/candidate_listoldid=48076437#File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg.2C_featured

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-16 Thread Nepenthe 
I was all ready to point out that administrators (at least on en.wiki,
theoretically) discount comments like that, but that was *not* done in this
case per the closing summary.

Nepenthe

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:36, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.comwrote:

  If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what
 goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found out
 about this today, and I look forward to contributing:

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates

 One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the
 featured fictional person had big tits.


 The breasts were indeed a factor, and one comment in favour was i like her
 big tits.

 The old discussion is here --

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/candidate_listoldid=48076437#File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg.2C_featured

 Sarah

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-16 Thread Pete Forsyth 
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.comwrote:

  On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

 Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
 -Pete

 I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to
 see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where
 do we start? ;-)


Hi Sarah,

I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).

My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem --
or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining
where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:

(1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of
unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
(2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial
values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons;
(3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to
understand and poorly documented.

How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently work?
I think that process will point the way toward recommending a solution.

I've set up a page for this project, if you're game!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD

-Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-16 Thread Gillian White 
This anime image is not appropriate on the front page. Questions of art, of
education, and of publication, all require judgement. Judgement in these
matters is normal and necessary and is not of itself something which needs
apology. Here are some reasons why I think it is okay to decide NOT to put
this picture on the front page. This is not to say that it should be
deleted, it is simply not appropriate for the front page – and that does not
constitute censorship.

 The commonality of discriminatory product placement

Most areas of endeavour exercise care and some discrimination about their
products. It's not that they are illegal or censored; it's that they are
inappropriate in some places. For example, at a recent exhibition in the Art
Gallery of New South Wales, a very explicit drawing was placed at the far
end of the exhibition and a sign was placed discreetly to inform members of
the public who had to make a choice about whether to view them. In the case
of Wikimedia, there might be gory images, for example, of the effect of
land-mines which explode in children's faces. They are probably valuable –
encyclopedic and even educational – but would they be appropriate on the
front page? Their value is not diminished by leaving them in the body of the
repository and it is not censorship to make some small efforts necessary to
access them.

 The woman's body

If you put a large-breasted indigenous naked woman in an image, people would
not be commenting on the size of her breasts. They would see them as part of
the woman herself, whereas the breasts on which people have commented in
this anime are plainly “designed” for service to (some) viewers. In fact,
this image's offensiveness to many comes not from the size of the breasts
but rather from the whole backbreaking pose of the woman.

 Art and education

If this is a form of art, the question is not whether or not you like the
breasts (there are lots of breasts in art) but whether the art has its own
integrity. That is an aesthetic question, which is why the colour palette is
not under challenge as it contributes to the integrity of the image. Commons
has criteria for aesthetic quality, but they do not specify or restrict
subject matter. However, whether you like this art or any component part of
it in any image is irrelevant. Audience approval of the “tits” is only
relevant if the image is about titillation. Only if this is the purpose,
does the approval of the pose and body parts become relevant.

 If the image is not about art but is rather about education, then the
subject's body and pose are misleading, as are the clothes and everything
else, even the colour palette. Above all, if it is about education, then an
argument that its primary purpose to educate about the art form (manga) or
the medium (the software) is spurious and disingenuous.

Thanks,

Whiteghost.ink

PS I am a newbie female Åustralian Wikipedian and have been following this
list for a while but this is my first contribution to it. I really think
this is the wrong sort of image for the front page. Apart from all the other
arguments, I think it is likely to deter whole demographics (plural) from
contributing to any of the WM projects.
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

2011-05-15 Thread Ryan Kaldari 
So you're arguing that the woman is topless in order to conform to realistic
portrayals of indigenous people? That's the biggest pile of bullshit I've
heard in years.

Every few months one of the usual suspects nominates porn to be featured on
Commons and we have to go through the same circus-show all over again. It's
always porn for a male heterosexual audience, and it's always defended with
cries against the evils of censorship and disingenuous arguments about the
educational value of the image. I'm all for Commons hosting a wide array
of uncensored images, but I'm tired of seeing the Main Page being used as a
fap gallery for fanboys. Whether you agree with it or not, featuring such
images is distasteful to a lot of people - and not necessarily because they
are prudish or religious. I don't see how exercising editorial judgement
about our public image and being respectful of women is compromising our
core values. Driving people away from the site and eroding our reputation
as a serious educational resource do nothing to improve the project. If you
want to fight against censorship, help defend the Rape, Rape statistics,
and False accusation of rape articles against antimisandry.com. Or better
yet, file a DMCA counter-notice to restore the links in the Texas
Instruments signing key controversy article. For some reason people don't
seem as concerned about the real incidents of censorship on our projects.

Ryan Kaldari

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:53 AM, Aaron Adrignola
aaron.adrign...@gmail.comwrote:

 Commons is not censored.  It's a beautiful scene and it would be expected
 that the an imaginary tribal member would not have the American
 sensitivities to toplessness.  Some images may offend.  Some articles may
 offend.  We're not going to compromise our core values just to try to close
 a gap that some feel is such a big issue, if it even exists.

 On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 9:31 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:

 FYI

 Regards
 Tinu Cherian

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com
 Date: Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:33 AM
 Subject: [Gendergap] Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
 To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org


  Surely I'm not the only one who noticed this lovely gem of a photo of the
 day today. In my work environment - NFWS.

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

 Direct link to image:

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

 I mean really? /facepalm

 This is the kind of imagery I have no desire to see on the front page of
 Commons. I'm a very liberal person, but, this makes me not want to even
 allow my MOTHER to use Commons.

 #wikilove,

 Sarah


 --
 Wikipedia Regional Ambassador, D.C. Region
 Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art

 Sarah Stierch Consulting
 Historical, cultural  artistic research, advising  event planning.
 --
 http://www.sarahstierch.com/

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