Re: [Gendergap] How Collective Power can be abused on Wikimedia Projects
Hi Rupert, as promised here is the other reply. On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 14:52:40 +0100 rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: hi shlomi, what you are doing here might be perceived as having a conflict of interest and/or doing self promotion. you wrote a solver for black hole solitaire. then you create a wikipedia article about black hole solitaire, mentioning your name and your software in it, as well linking to your software. OK, I realise it seems bad and it might, however - here is the longer story from what I recall. I recall knowing of a Solitaire variant called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_%28solitaire%29 , which was featured in some places as similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeCell and which due to its technical features, I had some reservations about adding support for it to Freecell Solver (can I give a link? oh well). Anyway, I read on its wikipedia page that it was created by a certain creator of games, and that he also created Black Hole Solitaire. This interested me to check it out on and play it on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PySol , and play it and I noticed that I could also create a solver for it relatively easily, which I did (I preferred not to use Freecell Solver for that, because there was a much more compact way to represent the states). Then after I had the solver, I decided to determine which percentage of the deals was solvable, and with the help of “Amadiro” (someone I know) who deployed my solver on the University of Oslo’s high-performance cluster, I was able to solve a large number of deals. And then and only then, I decided to write a page for that on Wikipedia, so people may find it interesting. I realise there's http://cards.wikia.com/ , but not too many people edit it or visit it, and there's otherwise also extensive coverage of card games of all sorts on Wikipedia, despite some heat and resistance from trigger-happy deletionists. I don't mind that someone improves upon this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_%28solitaire%29 - and make it a little better (like the old “making soup out of stone” story), and I noticed people making pages a little better in the past, or that I reverted some temporary deletionism that I didn't like, into a better incarnation. But removing it completely is cruel, and sort of like expecting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond to remove all traces of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetchmail off his servers, because people think it is: poorly written/has too many bugs/too much hyped and talked about/not very functional/whatever. All of these may be true, but Mr. Raymond (or ESR) eventually decided that he has better things to do with his time, and could not allocate the time to maintain it, so he passed the baton to some other people who had more time, and possible were even more capable software developers than he is. Likewise, if someone wants to take the Black Hole Solitaire page and improve it, then I say “Go for it!” (or “Drive safely, the keys are inside” like we say in Israel based on a skit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaGashash_HaHiver ). But do and let do, instead of do, undo, redo, undo, redo, etc.. (Sorry for the long post). then you fill an unrelated mailing list with this topic and link to it. your first mail in this thread btw, the 30 page long mail, included links to your website(s) as well. I think what I said there about Aesop’s The Grandfather, The Boy and the Donkey, Saladin, etc. were on topic here and could be useful food for thought and to implement - it's just that I used associations from my own experience. This is because I didn't think too straight now and because I have some emotional attachment to what I did and experience and care about. I apologise if I sounded too narcissistic (and I may have) but hopefully you can forgive me and get past that and try to deal with my advice. My primary intention in posting the message was to create a more positive wikipedia-editing experience for everyone in the long run, based on psychology, compassion, being “a bigger man”, and less about territoriality, doing things “quick” in order to save time, and being an inconsiderate and short-term thinking bastard (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick ). Regards, Shlomi Fish rupert. On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Shlomi Fish shlo...@shlomifish.org wrote: Hi Ole, thanks for your useful and constructive advice. I'll reply below, but note that I was speaking from the general/philosophical/strategical Point-of-view. On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:22:49 +0100 Ole Palnatoke Andersen o...@palnatoke.org wrote: ... non-native speakers of English (like me) feel that they are “men-of-the-world” and will reach a wider audience if they wrote in English instead of in their ... As a result, I decided to write ... Solitaire game nicknamed “Baker’s Dozen”) and ... (ditto for “Black Hole”) in the English wikipedia and do not
[Gendergap] How Collective Power can be abused on Wikimedia Projects
Hi all, yesterday I had that discussion on #wikimedia-en-help where I (= rindolf) tried to help someone (I think he was a guy, but it doesn't matter) with getting his article for review accepted: Helpmebot Hi Referenced99, welcome to the help channel for the English Wikipedia! Move the cursor to the input area at the bottom of the window, type your question and press Enter, and a helper should be around shortly to answer your questions. If your question is about a particular page please make sure your question includes the URL or name of the page in question. Referenced99 I need very detailed instructions about why this page keeps getting rejected because of 'unreliable sources' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bjarnmar/sandbox. Even the wiki page for sterling silver says at the top that some of its sources need to be verified - but it was still allowed to be a page, so? Hersfold just because some pages have issues doesn't mean we should allow them to spread Referenced99 And i have used sources such as Variety, and when they said it was not proven his music really existed i put the acutal link to where it is in different parts of the world and that's still not enough? Referenced99 But that's just it Hersfold - what are the issues with this page? i have even used some references that were accepted on other pages related to his work but they were rejected in this case? Hersfold I'm a bit occupied and don't really have time to look myself, but someone else may be around Hersfold !helper MJ94 ues? MJ94 yes? Referenced99 How is Danmarks Radio, the largest TV station in Denmark, an unreliable source when I link to his work and credits on their site? MJ94 Referenced99: one sec MJ94 Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rs Referenced99 Sorry to bother you Herford...have a nice Saturday MJ94 Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Imdb#IMDb IMDB is generally not a reliable source. Referenced99 Yes, MJ94 I have seen that page and I still don't understand - and I only use IMDB as an Additional Link but every one of the links above it are genuine lnks to professional pages that have or reference his work? Referenced99 Politiken is one of the largest newspapers in the country, and I referenced them, Variety is known and used as a reference - I really don't understand the problem? Referenced99 The British Film Institute site is also used as as reference - so what is wrong? I am really trying to understand Referenced99 But could someone please look at the page and tell me what is wrong with the references I have now? Then I could better understand, it would be more specific, please? rindolf Referenced99: where is the page again? Referenced99 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bjarnmar/sandbox rindolf Referenced99: ah, well, it should be more a biography. Referenced99 Thank you, rindolf, I would appreciate your help. I have looked at the general guide but I still don't understand what is wrong with my references rindolf Referenced99: like other biography of living people. Referenced99 Just a moment, reading you... rindolf Referenced99: reading what? Referenced99 So what do I do differently i thought that was what I had done (I meant reading your reply) Referenced99 I never did this before... Referenced99 I thought this was a biography page... rindolf Referenced99: see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Wall rindolf Well, that may not be a good one. rindolf Let's see. rindolf Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hathaway Referenced99 Ok, i see that page, my page also starts with his name and where he was born and goes on to his accomplishments - what am I missing? Referenced99 Looking at the hathaway page now... rindolf Referenced99: OK. rindolf Referenced99: your page reads too much like a resume. Referenced99 Yes, and except for the absence of a pic can you please tell me spefically what I need to do that I haven't already done? rindolf I mean a C.V. rindolf Referenced99: structure it more like a biography. rindolf Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons Referenced99 well, in the earlier version it was more like the hathaway but it was criticized, so like they said i went to pages of some other composers and they had it more simply prominent works etc like i do now ... rindolf Referenced99: ah, this reminds me of http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/62.html Referenced99 kind of like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_N%C3%B8rg%C3%A5rd where his work is listed... Referenced99 Anyway, you see the way his works are listed, that is what I was doing but should i go back to the hathaway type? Referenced99 i have done it so many ways now i am almost dizzy, ha... rindolf Referenced99: I think you should. Referenced99 Ok, I will use the hathaway model...do i have to label it as a biography in any
Re: [Gendergap] How Collective Power can be abused on Wikimedia Projects
I would probably have begun with creating an article in Danish. We have one red link to [[Bjarne O. Henriksen]], and could probably have two more, and I guess he may border on notability on dawiki for his writing. I never heard of his music, but I won't blame him for that :) Regards, Ole On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Shlomi Fish shlo...@shlomifish.org wrote: Hi all, yesterday I had that discussion on #wikimedia-en-help where I (= rindolf) tried to help someone (I think he was a guy, but it doesn't matter) with getting his article for review accepted: Helpmebot Hi Referenced99, welcome to the help channel for the English Wikipedia! Move the cursor to the input area at the bottom of the window, type your question and press Enter, and a helper should be around shortly to answer your questions. If your question is about a particular page please make sure your question includes the URL or name of the page in question. Referenced99 I need very detailed instructions about why this page keeps getting rejected because of 'unreliable sources' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bjarnmar/sandbox. Even the wiki page for sterling silver says at the top that some of its sources need to be verified - but it was still allowed to be a page, so? Hersfold just because some pages have issues doesn't mean we should allow them to spread Referenced99 And i have used sources such as Variety, and when they said it was not proven his music really existed i put the acutal link to where it is in different parts of the world and that's still not enough? Referenced99 But that's just it Hersfold - what are the issues with this page? i have even used some references that were accepted on other pages related to his work but they were rejected in this case? Hersfold I'm a bit occupied and don't really have time to look myself, but someone else may be around Hersfold !helper MJ94 ues? MJ94 yes? Referenced99 How is Danmarks Radio, the largest TV station in Denmark, an unreliable source when I link to his work and credits on their site? MJ94 Referenced99: one sec MJ94 Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rs Referenced99 Sorry to bother you Herford...have a nice Saturday MJ94 Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Imdb#IMDb IMDB is generally not a reliable source. Referenced99 Yes, MJ94 I have seen that page and I still don't understand - and I only use IMDB as an Additional Link but every one of the links above it are genuine lnks to professional pages that have or reference his work? Referenced99 Politiken is one of the largest newspapers in the country, and I referenced them, Variety is known and used as a reference - I really don't understand the problem? Referenced99 The British Film Institute site is also used as as reference - so what is wrong? I am really trying to understand Referenced99 But could someone please look at the page and tell me what is wrong with the references I have now? Then I could better understand, it would be more specific, please? rindolf Referenced99: where is the page again? Referenced99 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bjarnmar/sandbox rindolf Referenced99: ah, well, it should be more a biography. Referenced99 Thank you, rindolf, I would appreciate your help. I have looked at the general guide but I still don't understand what is wrong with my references rindolf Referenced99: like other biography of living people. Referenced99 Just a moment, reading you... rindolf Referenced99: reading what? Referenced99 So what do I do differently i thought that was what I had done (I meant reading your reply) Referenced99 I never did this before... Referenced99 I thought this was a biography page... rindolf Referenced99: see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Wall rindolf Well, that may not be a good one. rindolf Let's see. rindolf Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hathaway Referenced99 Ok, i see that page, my page also starts with his name and where he was born and goes on to his accomplishments - what am I missing? Referenced99 Looking at the hathaway page now... rindolf Referenced99: OK. rindolf Referenced99: your page reads too much like a resume. Referenced99 Yes, and except for the absence of a pic can you please tell me spefically what I need to do that I haven't already done? rindolf I mean a C.V. rindolf Referenced99: structure it more like a biography. rindolf Referenced99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons Referenced99 well, in the earlier version it was more like the hathaway but it was criticized, so like they said i went to pages of some other composers and they had it more simply prominent works etc like i do now ... rindolf Referenced99: ah, this reminds me of
Re: [Gendergap] How Collective Power can be abused on Wikimedia Projects
Hi Ole, thanks for your useful and constructive advice. I'll reply below, but note that I was speaking from the general/philosophical/strategical Point-of-view. On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:22:49 +0100 Ole Palnatoke Andersen o...@palnatoke.org wrote: I would probably have begun with creating an article in Danish. We have one red link to [[Bjarne O. Henriksen]], and could probably have two more, and I guess he may border on notability on dawiki for his writing. I never heard of his music, but I won't blame him for that :) Well, I have never heard of many popular Israeli composers and other musicians either (and there's been an inflation of them lately due to reality T.V., the Internet (YouTube/etc.) and other stuff), so I forgive you. Anyway, starting with the Danish wikipedia is good advice and I'll put it on Referenced99's user page. That put aside, I should note that some non-native speakers of English (like me) feel that they are “men-of-the-world” and will reach a wider audience if they wrote in English instead of in their native tongue, even if their English is not perfect. There are not too many speakers (native or non-native) of Modern Hebrew nowadays, and most of the Hebrew speakers that I care about (i.e: those enlightened and knowledgeable enough to learn and understand English well) will have no technical problem or attitude problem for reading my English, and I can reach a much wider audience of both native speakers (.us-ers, .uk-ers, .au-ers, .nz-ers, etc.) and non-native speakers, including those from countries or backgrounds who traditionally felt some hostility towards Israel/Jews/etc. The same is equally true of Danish speakers, Dutch speakers, Swedish speakers, Norwegian speakers, Zulu speakers, speakers of various Asian Indian languages (Marathi, Hindi, Punjabi, Malayalam, Tamil, etc.), and probably most people around, and is (for better or for worse) becoming more and more true for speakers of languages which have 10s of millions or even hundreds of millions of speakers. As a result, I decided to write http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker%27s_Dozen_%28solitaire%29 (about the Solitaire game nicknamed “Baker’s Dozen”) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_%28solitaire%29 (ditto for “Black Hole”) in the English wikipedia and do not really see the point of putting it on the Hebrew wikipedia, which often feels like incomplete and lacking attention (though I was told it is generally in better shape than the (Literary) Arabic wikipedia). I guess that was also Referenced99’s motivation, though in this case, it was a subject of less general interest to most of the English wikipedia's readers (but still notable of coverage). I would still like to reach more people with everything I said in the general case (about Aesop, the colour of the bike shed, Saladin, etc.), so if anyone can give me a bigger soapbox (on one of Wikimedia’s blogs or whereever) I'll appreciate it. Naturally, it will require a lot more work of organisation, cleanup and finding good links and references. Also related is: * http://unarmed.shlomifish.org/909.html (“Dealing with Internet Trolls [= more like flamers or people passing criticism] - the Cognitive Thearpy Approach”). Regards, Shlomi Fish Regards, Ole On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Shlomi Fish shlo...@shlomifish.org wrote: Hi all, yesterday I had that discussion on #wikimedia-en-help where I (= rindolf) tried to help someone (I think he was a guy, but it doesn't matter) with getting his article for review accepted: Helpmebot Hi Referenced99, welcome to the help channel for the English Wikipedia! Move the cursor to the input area at the bottom of the window, type your question and press Enter, and a helper should be around shortly to answer your questions. If your question is about a particular page please make sure your question includes the URL or name of the page in question. Referenced99 I need very detailed instructions about why this page keeps getting rejected because of 'unreliable sources' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bjarnmar/sandbox. Even the wiki page for sterling silver says at the top that some of its sources need to be verified - but it was still allowed to be a page, so? Hersfold just because some pages have issues doesn't mean we should allow them to spread Referenced99 And i have used sources such as Variety, and when they said it was not proven his music really existed i put the acutal link to where it is in different parts of the world and that's still not enough? Referenced99 But that's just it Hersfold - what are the issues with this page? i have even used some references that were accepted on other pages related to his work but they were rejected in this case? Hersfold I'm a bit occupied and don't really have time to look myself, but someone else may be around Hersfold !helper MJ94 ues? MJ94 yes?
Re: [Gendergap] How Collective Power can be abused on Wikimedia Projects
hi shlomi, what you are doing here might be perceived as having a conflict of interest and/or doing self promotion. you wrote a solver for black hole solitaire. then you create a wikipedia article about black hole solitaire, mentioning your name and your software in it, as well linking to your software. then you fill an unrelated mailing list with this topic and link to it. your first mail in this thread btw, the 30 page long mail, included links to your website(s) as well. rupert. On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Shlomi Fish shlo...@shlomifish.org wrote: Hi Ole, thanks for your useful and constructive advice. I'll reply below, but note that I was speaking from the general/philosophical/strategical Point-of-view. On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:22:49 +0100 Ole Palnatoke Andersen o...@palnatoke.org wrote: ... non-native speakers of English (like me) feel that they are “men-of-the-world” and will reach a wider audience if they wrote in English instead of in their ... As a result, I decided to write ... Solitaire game nicknamed “Baker’s Dozen”) and ... (ditto for “Black Hole”) in the English wikipedia and do not really see the point of putting it on the Hebrew wikipedia ... Also related is: * (“Dealing with Internet Trolls ... ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
