[Gendergap] Labiaplasty
I don't know whether this is worth bothering about, but it's the kind of thing that concerns me. Anyone not wanting to look at genitalia should not click on the links. I came across [[Labiaplasty]], while looking for material on female genital mutilation. There's an image on the page of what is supposed to be before and after a labiaplasty. The previous caption implied that it was the same woman, though it doesn't look like it -- for one thing, larger versions of the images on the Commons show one has a mole on her abdomen and the other doesn't. What really bothers me is the before image shows a woman within a normal range, yet we are presenting this as something in need of surgery. I'm concerned that young women could stumble on this and start to doubt themselves. The image and upload history are here -- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hypertrophy_of_Labia_Minora_before_and_after_surgery.jpg There's no indication that these are medical images; no indication of model release; no reliable sources indicating that the oversized one really is regarded as such; and the images were uploaded by occasionally used accounts. I've twice removed the image from the article, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labiaplastyaction=historysubmitdiff=450858934oldid=450796332 and I've left a note on talk, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Labiaplasty#Image but it is being restored. If anyone wants to jump in, please do. If not, no worries. I'll completely understand if you would all prefer not to comment. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
I think you are perfectly right, Sarah. The woman on the right is also more muscular. The fact that those images keep being restored shows a definite intention, which makes it not an occasional mistake but a voluntary and persistent medical lie. You are also right about the need of surgery. From what I hear there is a growing demand of surgery from teenage girls, concerning any part of their bodies, buttocks, femur length, whatever. It seems to me WP should take the contrary stance and chose images of average looking women as methodically as possible. Same principle as for anorexia. Arnaud On 17/09/2011 18:37, Sarah wrote: I don't know whether this is worth bothering about, but it's the kind of thing that concerns me. Anyone not wanting to look at genitalia should not click on the links. I came across [[Labiaplasty]], while looking for material on female genital mutilation. There's an image on the page of what is supposed to be before and after a labiaplasty. The previous caption implied that it was the same woman, though it doesn't look like it -- for one thing, larger versions of the images on the Commons show one has a mole on her abdomen and the other doesn't. What really bothers me is the before image shows a woman within a normal range, yet we are presenting this as something in need of surgery. I'm concerned that young women could stumble on this and start to doubt themselves. The image and upload history are here -- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hypertrophy_of_Labia_Minora_before_and_after_surgery.jpg There's no indication that these are medical images; no indication of model release; no reliable sources indicating that the oversized one really is regarded as such; and the images were uploaded by occasionally used accounts. I've twice removed the image from the article, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labiaplastyaction=historysubmitdiff=450858934oldid=450796332 and I've left a note on talk, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Labiaplasty#Image but it is being restored. If anyone wants to jump in, please do. If not, no worries. I'll completely understand if you would all prefer not to comment. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
On 17/09/2011 19:17, Arnaud HERVE wrote: The woman on the right is also more muscular. I meant the woman on the left, sorry. Arnaud ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
A lot of this surgery is cosmetic surgery, thus it is a matter of taste, not a matter of dysfunction or normality. And, usually, is quite private and nobody's business. So, I don't see a problem so long as the cosmetic aspect is clear. There is a plastic surgeon who specializes in this area that has uploaded many images for promotional purposes. I'm pretty sure he has quit by now. That was several years ago. Fred I don't know whether this is worth bothering about, but it's the kind of thing that concerns me. Anyone not wanting to look at genitalia should not click on the links. I came across [[Labiaplasty]], while looking for material on female genital mutilation. There's an image on the page of what is supposed to be before and after a labiaplasty. The previous caption implied that it was the same woman, though it doesn't look like it -- for one thing, larger versions of the images on the Commons show one has a mole on her abdomen and the other doesn't. What really bothers me is the before image shows a woman within a normal range, yet we are presenting this as something in need of surgery. I'm concerned that young women could stumble on this and start to doubt themselves. The image and upload history are here -- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hypertrophy_of_Labia_Minora_before_and_after_surgery.jpg There's no indication that these are medical images; no indication of model release; no reliable sources indicating that the oversized one really is regarded as such; and the images were uploaded by occasionally used accounts. I've twice removed the image from the article, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labiaplastyaction=historysubmitdiff=450858934oldid=450796332 and I've left a note on talk, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Labiaplasty#Image but it is being restored. If anyone wants to jump in, please do. If not, no worries. I'll completely understand if you would all prefer not to comment. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
On 17/09/2011 20:14, Fred Bauder wrote: A lot of this surgery is cosmetic surgery, thus it is a matter of taste, not a matter of dysfunction or normality. And, usually, is quite private and nobody's business. From an average citizen's point of view, certainly. From a parent's, educator's or non cosmetic doctor point of view, I doubt so. As I said previously, I am not a doctor, but I am regularly employed as a geek placing photos on the local medical faculty's website. I understand most people will be shocked by a sense of decency vs obscenity here, but for me I almost sigh with relief by seeing something perfectly healthy. And although I am not a doctor I am not sure this kind of labia should be shown as something in need of surgery. Now about teenage girls with normal organs who demand surgery as their free personal choice, I know it creates quite a lot of trouble in families, with sometimes a huge loss of money for average income parents, or severe behaviour problems for the girl who doesn't get her surgery. I also believe that the quest for a perfectly formatted body is part of the objectification of women. And last, for the cognitive or educational aspect, it should be emphasized that non top model or non porn actress bodies are normal. Arnaud ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
On 17/09/2011 20:14, Fred Bauder wrote: A lot of this surgery is cosmetic surgery, thus it is a matter of taste, not a matter of dysfunction or normality. And, usually, is quite private and nobody's business. From an average citizen's point of view, certainly. From a parent's, educator's or non cosmetic doctor point of view, I doubt so. As I said previously, I am not a doctor, but I am regularly employed as a geek placing photos on the local medical faculty's website. I understand most people will be shocked by a sense of decency vs obscenity here, but for me I almost sigh with relief by seeing something perfectly healthy. And although I am not a doctor I am not sure this kind of labia should be shown as something in need of surgery. Now about teenage girls with normal organs who demand surgery as their free personal choice, I know it creates quite a lot of trouble in families, with sometimes a huge loss of money for average income parents, or severe behaviour problems for the girl who doesn't get her surgery. I also believe that the quest for a perfectly formatted body is part of the objectification of women. And last, for the cognitive or educational aspect, it should be emphasized that non top model or non porn actress bodies are normal. Arnaud As is the plastic surgery craze. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 13:00, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: On 17/09/2011 20:14, Fred Bauder wrote: A lot of this surgery is cosmetic surgery, thus it is a matter of taste, not a matter of dysfunction or normality. And, usually, is quite private and nobody's business. From an average citizen's point of view, certainly. From a parent's, educator's or non cosmetic doctor point of view, I doubt so. As I said previously, I am not a doctor, but I am regularly employed as a geek placing photos on the local medical faculty's website. I understand most people will be shocked by a sense of decency vs obscenity here, but for me I almost sigh with relief by seeing something perfectly healthy. And although I am not a doctor I am not sure this kind of labia should be shown as something in need of surgery. Now about teenage girls with normal organs who demand surgery as their free personal choice, I know it creates quite a lot of trouble in families, with sometimes a huge loss of money for average income parents, or severe behaviour problems for the girl who doesn't get her surgery. I also believe that the quest for a perfectly formatted body is part of the objectification of women. And last, for the cognitive or educational aspect, it should be emphasized that non top model or non porn actress bodies are normal. Arnaud I would say the bottom line for Wikipedia is that we need responsible medical sources saying that an image depicts something outside a normal range. By responsible, I mean sources not seeking business, but regular physicians writing peer-reviewed articles -- secondary sources, i.e. review articles -- about this kind of procedure. At least that way we would know we weren't misleading women and young girls into thinking they lie outside the range when in fact they're perfectly normal. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Labiaplasty
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: ... What really bothers me is the before image shows a woman within a normal range, yet we are presenting this as something in need of surgery. I'm concerned that young women could stumble on this and start to doubt themselves. Somewhat related: The most well-known Danish woman's self-awareness book, [[da:Kvinde, kend din krop]] was originally published in 1975, and has been revised several times since. This year, the group behind the book opened a photo booth in order to collect images of the diversity of female genitalia. Have a look at it at http://kvindekenddinkrop.dk/ - use your favourite translation service if you don't read Danish (no, there are no genitalia on the front page - the link 'BILLEDERNE' will take you there). Regards, Ole -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
