[Gendergap] Test

[Marie Earley]

Test. To see if my message appears on [Gendergap].

Marie
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[Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
,
I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
 area for
women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested women
would be welcome.

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Carol Moore dc]

On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:
Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page 
, 
I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch 
 area 
for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of 
interested women would be welcome.


Lightbreather

Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?

Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates 
womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as 
women from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.


CM
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Katherine Casey]

*"Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women."*
...wha?

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

>  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:
>
> Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
> ,
> I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
>  area for
> women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested women
> would be welcome.
>
>  Lightbreather
>
> Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?
>
> Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates womens
> experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women from
> birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.
>
> CM
>
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> visit:
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Sarah Stierch]

I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago... but,
here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So, if
you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's totally
inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.

I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's an
insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
movement.

But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)

Sarah

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey <
fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> *"Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women."*
> ...wha?
>
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc 
> wrote:
>
>>  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:
>>
>> Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
>> ,
>> I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
>>  area
>> for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
>> women would be welcome.
>>
>>  Lightbreather
>>
>> Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?
>>
>> Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
>> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
>> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.
>>
>> CM
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
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>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>
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> visit:
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-- 

Sarah Stierch

-

Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

www.sarahstierch.com
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Risker]

Whatever else "cis" is, it's not a scientific term.  It's a buzzword that
sounds scientific because it derives from the Latin, but in fact it's a
coined term that is not used in science.

Risker/Anne



On 16 January 2015 at 16:33, Sarah Stierch  wrote:

> I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
> but, here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
>
> It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So, if
> you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's totally
> inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.
>
> I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's an
> insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
> movement.
>
> But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
> these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)
>
> Sarah
>
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey <
> fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *"Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
>> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
>> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women."*
>> ...wha?
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc > > wrote:
>>
>>>  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:
>>>
>>> Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
>>> ,
>>> I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
>>>  area
>>> for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
>>> women would be welcome.
>>>
>>>  Lightbreather
>>>
>>> Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?
>>>
>>> Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
>>> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
>>> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.
>>>
>>> CM
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
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>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sarah Stierch
>
> -
>
> Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.
>
> www.sarahstierch.com
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[JJ Marr]

What will be discussed in this Kaffeeklatsch area?
 On Jan 16, 2015 4:56 PM, "Risker"  wrote:

> Whatever else "cis" is, it's not a scientific term.  It's a buzzword that
> sounds scientific because it derives from the Latin, but in fact it's a
> coined term that is not used in science.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> On 16 January 2015 at 16:33, Sarah Stierch 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
>> but, here's the Wikipedia article:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
>>
>> It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So,
>> if you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's
>> totally inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.
>>
>> I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's
>> an insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
>> movement.
>>
>> But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
>> these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey <
>> fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *"Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
>>> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
>>> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women."*
>>> ...wha?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc <
>>> carolmoor...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:

 Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
 ,
 I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
  area
 for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
 women would be welcome.

  Lightbreather

 Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?

 Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.

 CM

 ___
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 Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
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 please visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Sarah Stierch
>>
>> -
>>
>> Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.
>>
>> www.sarahstierch.com
>>
>> ___
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>> visit:
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>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

I hesitated to use the term, but it seemed to be shorthand for exactly what
you just said, Sarah. At least that's how I meant it, and I didn't mean to
suggest that it's scientific.

Lightbreather

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Sarah Stierch 
wrote:

> I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
> but, here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
>
> It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So, if
> you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's totally
> inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.
>
> I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's an
> insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
> movement.
>
> But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
> these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)
>
> Sarah
>
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey <
> fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *"Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
>> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
>> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women."*
>> ...wha?
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc > > wrote:
>>
>>>  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:
>>>
>>> Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
>>> ,
>>> I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
>>>  area
>>> for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
>>> women would be welcome.
>>>
>>>  Lightbreather
>>>
>>> Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?
>>>
>>> Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
>>> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
>>> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.
>>>
>>> CM
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sarah Stierch
>
> -
>
> Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.
>
> www.sarahstierch.com
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Heather Walls]

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Risker  wrote:

> Whatever else "cis" is, it's not a scientific term.  It's a buzzword that
> sounds scientific because it derives from the Latin, but in fact it's a
> coined term that is not used in science.
>

What makes a term scientific other than that scientists use it?

"Sociologists Kristen Schilt and Laurel Westbrook define *cisgender* as a
label for "individuals who have a match between the gender they were
assigned at birth, their bodies, and their personal identity" as a
complement to *transgender *.[2]
"

*"Sociology* is the academic study of social behaviour
, its origins, development,
organisation, and institutions .
[1]  It is a social
science  that uses various
methods of empirical investigation
[2]

 and critical analysis [3]
 to
develop a body of knowledge about social order, social disorder and social
change."



>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> On 16 January 2015 at 16:33, Sarah Stierch 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
>> but, here's the Wikipedia article:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
>>
>> It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So,
>> if you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's
>> totally inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.
>>
>> I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's
>> an insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
>> movement.
>>
>> But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
>> these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey <
>> fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *"Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
>>> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
>>> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women."*
>>> ...wha?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc <
>>> carolmoor...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:

 Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
 ,
 I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
  area
 for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
 women would be welcome.

  Lightbreather

 Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?

 Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.

 CM

 ___
 Gendergap mailing list
 Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing,
 please visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Sarah Stierch
>>
>> -
>>
>> Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.
>>
>> www.sarahstierch.com
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
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>> visit:
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>
>
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-- 
Heather Walls
Communications Design Manager I Wikimedia Foundation
149 New Montgomery Street I San Francisco, CA 94105
heat...@wikimedia.org
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

Whatever we want to that doesn't break WP policy or the klatsch's rules. I
envision it along the lines of the WikiProject Women proposal

at the IdeaLab.


Lightbreather

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, JJ Marr  wrote:

> What will be discussed in this Kaffeeklatsch area?
>  On Jan 16, 2015 4:56 PM, "Risker"  wrote:
>
>> Whatever else "cis" is, it's not a scientific term.  It's a buzzword that
>> sounds scientific because it derives from the Latin, but in fact it's a
>> coined term that is not used in science.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 January 2015 at 16:33, Sarah Stierch 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
>>> but, here's the Wikipedia article:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
>>>
>>> It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So,
>>> if you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's
>>> totally inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.
>>>
>>> I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's
>>> an insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
>>> movement.
>>>
>>> But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
>>> these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey <
>>> fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>


 *"Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women."*
 ...wha?

 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc <
 carolmoor...@verizon.net> wrote:

>  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:
>
> Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
> ,
> I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
>  area
> for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
> women would be welcome.
>
>  Lightbreather
>
> Since "cis" means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?
>
> Also note many women consider "cis" to be an insult that eliminates
> womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as 
> women
> from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.
>
> CM
>
> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sarah Stierch
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.
>>>
>>> www.sarahstierch.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Risker]

On 16 January 2015 at 17:13, Heather Walls  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> Whatever else "cis" is, it's not a scientific term.  It's a buzzword that
>> sounds scientific because it derives from the Latin, but in fact it's a
>> coined term that is not used in science.
>>
>
> What makes a term scientific other than that scientists use it?
>
> "Sociologists Kristen Schilt and Laurel Westbrook define *cisgender* as a
> label for "individuals who have a match between the gender they were
> assigned at birth, their bodies, and their personal identity" as a
> complement to *transgender *.
> [2] "
>
> *"Sociology* is the academic study of social behaviour
> , its origins,
> development, organisation, and institutions
> .[1]
>  It is a social
> science  that uses various
> methods of empirical investigation
> [2]
> 
>  and critical analysis 
> [3]
>  to
> develop a body of knowledge about social order, social disorder and social
> change."
>
>
>
Simply because two sociologists say it means X doesn't mean that there's
any indication that term is widely accepted even with the academic field of
sociology; in fact, the next paragraph of the lede of the article indicates
it's only one of many terms that are used by various social science
fields.  And just to be clear, social science != science; they're two very
different things.

The "cis" prefix is most frequently used when there is a fairly equal
division between two different presentations. Thus, using this prefix
prefix inaccurately reflects the distribution of gender identities.  Let's
not kid ourselves, no matter what data are being presented, 70% or more of
the human population *does* self-identify with the gender assigned at
birth. (The whole first paragraph on the origin of the term is original
research, but I'm not going to touch it with a 10-foot pole.)

We would never even consider calling people who have two feet "cispedal" or
people who have blood pressure in the normal range "cistensive".  In fact,
there's a word for those with blood pressure in the normal range:
"normotensive".  But it wouldn't look politically correct to call people
who identify with their assigned birth gender as "normogender", which would
be the linguistically correct prefix, because that encompasses the majority
of people.  [For the record, I'd never advocate the use of that term,
either.]

Let's just call women "women" or, if it's really felt that we need to be
exclusive, "those who self-identify as women".

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[GorillaWarfare]

I'm a member of a feminist safe space that simply uses "not men," and
leaves it to members to judge if this applies to them. Just a thought.

– Molly (GorillaWarfare)
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Heather Walls]

> The "cis" prefix is most frequently used when there is a fairly equal
>> division between two different presentations.
>>
>
Not in some of my circles.


> Thus, using this prefix prefix inaccurately reflects the distribution of
> gender identities.  Let's not kid ourselves, no matter what data are being
> presented, 70% or more of the human population *does* self-identify with
> the gender assigned at birth. (The whole first paragraph on the origin of
> the term is original research, but I'm not going to touch it with a 10-foot
> pole.)
>

Perhaps labeling that way is a matter of habit, but is it the right thing
to do -- to make something other because it's minority?


> We would never even consider calling people who have two feet "cispedal"
> or people who have blood pressure in the normal range "cistensive".  In
> fact, there's a word for those with blood pressure in the normal range:
> "normotensive".  But it wouldn't look politically correct to call people
> who identify with their assigned birth gender as "normogender", which would
> be the linguistically correct prefix, because that encompasses the majority
> of people.  [For the record, I'd never advocate the use of that term,
> either.]
>
> Let's just call women "women" or, if it's really felt that we need to be
> exclusive, "those who self-identify as women".
>

>
> Risker/Anne
>
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-- 
Heather Walls
Communications Design Manager I Wikimedia Foundation
149 New Montgomery Street I San Francisco, CA 94105
heat...@wikimedia.org
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

It's tempting, but I'm not ready to make that leap yet for my purpose. I
really want it for women only, which isn't quite the same as "not men." I'm
leaning toward Anne's "those who self-identify as women." It was my first
instinct, and that's usually the way to go.

Lightbreather

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:40 PM, GorillaWarfare <
gorillawarfarewikipe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm a member of a feminist safe space that simply uses "not men," and
> leaves it to members to judge if this applies to them. Just a thought.
>
> – Molly (GorillaWarfare)
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Gordon Joly]

> 
> We would never even consider calling people who have two feet
> "cispedal" or people who have blood pressure in the normal range
> "cistensive".


Well, yes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis%E2%80%93trans_isomerism

"In organic chemistry, cis/trans isomerism (also known as geometric
isomerism) is a form of stereoisomerism describing the relative
orientation of functional groups within a molecule."

Gordo


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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Risker]

On 17 January 2015 at 14:06, Gordon Joly  wrote:

>
> >
> > We would never even consider calling people who have two feet
> > "cispedal" or people who have blood pressure in the normal range
> > "cistensive".
>
>
> Well, yes
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis%E2%80%93trans_isomerism
>
> "In organic chemistry, cis/trans isomerism (also known as geometric
> isomerism) is a form of stereoisomerism describing the relative
> orientation of functional groups within a molecule."
>
>

Thank you for proving my point.  I despair of having to defend humanity
from comparisons to molecules.

RIsker/ANne
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Bohdan Melnychuk]

Is there an area for men only as well? --Base

On 16.01.2015 21:20, LB wrote:
Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page 
, 
I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch 
 area 
for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of 
interested women would be welcome.


Lightbreather


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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[Leigh Honeywell]

This was not a helpful or informative comment. I have unsubscribed Bohdan
from the list.

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Bohdan Melnychuk  wrote:

>  Is there an area for men only as well? --Base
>
> On 16.01.2015 21:20, LB wrote:
>
> Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
> ,
> I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
>  area for
> women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested women
> would be welcome.
>
>  Lightbreather
>
>
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>
>
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-- 
Leigh Honeywell
http://hypatia.ca
@hypatiadotca
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