Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
Thanks Ryan. I don't think I know who you mean though, from memory there were quite a few who fell into the porn = feminism school of thought (sex-positive feminism or third-wave feminism). The one person I thought you might mean has posted edits within the last few weeks so it can't be them. It's hard to remember now but I think it was possibly the combination of comments from members and also some of the articles listed in the feminism portal with GA status that I found off-putting, particularly as it had been suggested to me as, Oh, you should go there. Articles with GA status: Batgirl (and also a second article on Barbara Gordon) Belle (Disney - complete with picture of Belle in ball gown and holding a flower) Beyoncé Can't Hold Us Down (Christina Aguilera, raunch culture track) The Dirty Picture (read the plot and then tell me Silk is the film / poster for the film is portraying women as powerful as described in the article's opening paragraph) Government Hooker (a song by Lady Gaga about John F. Kennedy's affair with Marilyn Monroe, lyrics include I'm gonna drink my tears and cry / 'cos I know you love me baby) Independent Women's Forum (quote from article IWF-affiliated writers have argued that the gender gap in income exists because of women's greater demand for flexibility, fewer hours, and less travel in their careers, rather than because of sexism) Lara Croft (male fantasy figure) Love, Loss, and What I Wore (play - the plot sounds like the opposite of feminism) Madonna Tara Teng (Miss World 2012) Xue Susu (a Chinese courtesan). Anyway, as a start I've divided the list of members on WikiProject Feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Members between those who - have / have not - contributed to Wikipedia since 1 January 2013 (and updated the url link to take account of the change). That leaves the project with 147 active members. The process gave me a glimpse of the interests / articles that members are editing, it was quite telling how many listed their interests / studies as: human development / human capabilities / African Diaspora / psychology / economics / poverty related (in particulary students on the Poverty, Justice, and Human Capabilities PJHC course at Rice University). I also found Wikipedian in Residence Sydney Poore (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FloNight/FAQ_WiR ), perhaps useful? (I counted eight of the 147 who might reasonably be described as sex-positive feminists or third-wave feminists, which isn't really all that many https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism ). Marie Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 10:46:52 -0700 From: rkald...@wikimedia.org To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote: A subpage in an existing project would be one idea but please not the Feminism project. I was invited to it very early on by well meaning editors as a place for such discussions but found sex-positive feminists who think female porn stars are the definition of female empowerment. Hi Marie, I believe you're referring to a particular editor who hasn't participated there since about a year ago. I totally understand if you felt put off by your interactions with them. You might want to consider checking out the project again though since we could always use more informed, thoughtful voices such as yours. Cheers, Ryan ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
Okay, so I've put my name down for the gender bias task force (Professor Strassmann is already a member). I also wanted to say that, I get a sense from a number of these threads that it is not just a case of finding projects / ambassadors / systems etc. to tackle the issue, but also a language to communicate in, a language that 'frames' the debate. For instance, in the recent debates concerning making Michele Merkin glamour model photo 'picture of the day' how much simpler would it have been to say, Oppose: I am supporter of feminist economics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_economics ) and the capability approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capabilities_approach ) and I feel having this image as POTD is an attack on both and therefore it would breach NPOV. I've been creating articles relating to feminist economics for a while now, mostly blps, but also one for the International Association for Feminist Economics (IAFFE). Professor Strassmann and Professor Berik are co-editors of the peer-reviewed journal Feminist Economics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Economics_%28journal%29 ). There is an emphasis in the topic on how women are perceived, including self-perception, how that translates to the amount of say they have in decision-making, bargaining power, and their well-being. In the early days of feminist economic discussions it was used to figure out what was happening to women in the developing world. An example narrative might be - a woman in India who makes cloth bags and her husband sells them, in an interview she says, Without my husband I would starve. She says this because he sells the bags, the truth is it is an equal partnership, if she didn't make the bags in the first place then he would starve. If both she and her husband regard him as the important one then it has a knock-on effect to the distribution of the income / food / resources in their household. Feminist economic theory, however, can be applied wherever women have to negotiate, so the work of feminist economists has moved on over the years to be applied to discussions in developed countries as well. Crucially, from the point of view of the discussions that we have been having in these threads, there is an accepted idea within feminist economics that the sexualization of the media and gender stereotyping have negative connotations for women and girls, to the point of dehumanizing women and being a cause of violence (see recommendations 134-136 pages 38 and 39, in this report http://www.unwomen.org/~/media/Headquarters/Attachments/Sections/Library/Publications/2012/11/Report-of-the-EGM-on-Prevention-of-Violence-against-Women-and-Girls.pdf by the 57th session of the Commission on the Status of Women, CSW57, which focussed on preventing violence to women). Just a few months ago, Rashida Manjoo, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women*, visited the UK and said that the UK has a boys' club sexist culture which leads to negative perceptions about women and girls, and that it was of the worst in-your-face examples that she had seen in all the countries she had visited. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/15/un-special-rapporteur-manjoo-yarls-wood-home-office So having an interest in feminist economics (being pro-feminist economics) effectively translates as being in favour of a number of things: education of women including sex education (so accusations prudishness are unfounded); development ethics; a global perspective (which Wikipedia strives to achieve); ending violence against women and girls; and a whole host of other gender and development issues. With this in mind I've created a template for those interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:User_feminist_economics ...and, a category to go with it (a sub-category of Wikipedians interested in economics): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_feminist_economics Articles that are related to feminist economics: * Feminist economics * Capability approach * Gender Empowerment Measure * Gender-related Development Index * Gender inequality * Intra-household bargaining * Inequality of bargaining power * Feminization of poverty People might also be interested in section 3. of this article by the Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1990/dec/20/more-than-100-million-women-are-missing/?page=2 Marie Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:18:05 -0400 From: carolmoor...@verizon.net To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues On 6/26/2014 11:32 AM, Sarah wrote: Hi Carol, we had a ruling from the ArbCom during the Chelsea Manning case that said : Wikipedia editors and readers come from
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On 6/25/2014 11:50 PM, Sarah wrote: We've got Wikipedia:Gendergap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gendergap that we could do something with, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force, which has members but hasn't been active. Sarah Thanks, Sarah. The first links to Meta. I completely forgot about the Gender Bias task force which I signed on to but evidently unwatched during some period of frustration. Of course, the task force only focuses on working on articles, not behavior problems women editors need help with. Re: issue of discussing content vs. behavior issues off wikipedias, I just remembered a recent ANI where a female editor complained that a male editor was criticizing her harshly on a few off-wiki sites for problematic content in her science-related edits. While he was judged insensitive, he wasn't sanctioned and such off wiki criticism was supported. One editor wrote that Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or elsewhere, is not harassment. and If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and rightly so. Should behavior toward women be considered as part of editors' work?? For more details on this case see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#Harassment (Also see the resulting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editor_review/Cwmhiraeth about the complaining female editor and another editor's complaint about it being a show trial at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive838#Wikipedia:Editor_review.2FCwmhiraeth ) Perhaps the female editor was judged too assertive in looking for DYKs and Good articles, while didn't fact checking/referencing carefully enough. Not stereotypically female behavior? However, questioning behavior too aggressively off wikipedia evidently remains a no no. I was once blocked for a week for asking an editor whether his overwhelming history of editing in articles about bondage of females was related to his obvious and annoying harassment of me on a noticeboard, after which I mentioned the issue on the Wikia Feminism page which I thought was a part of Wikipedia (duh). The latter evidently was the bigger no no. These are the kind of stories we used to tell here but don't any more. Where can we?? Is Wikipedia ready for women discussing how to deal with specific issues involving bad male editor behavior on or off wikipedia. Would a concerted effort by women to get the community to OK that work? Of course, a concerted effort to just consciousness raise on the issues generally would be great. There is a facebook group where occasionally something specific is mentioned. And going straight to ANI with problems you aren't sure about is difficult; even going to ANI with real problems and real diffs can be fruitless, especially if you are up against people who just make stuff up and don't even provide diffs. Perhaps the Gender Gap task force at least could allow links to actual ongoing ANIs/Editor Reviews/Arbitrations/noticeboards/etc. One thing that I could not find searching en.Wikipedia is an Essay called something like KEEPING WOMEN ON WIKIPEDIA that would deal explicitly with the problems women face and the various solutions, going though the list of Dispute resolution options, Wikiprojects and other support efforts, including at Meta. Also include some of the points mentioned in the Geek Feminism article linked by Valerie: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Statement_of_purpose:_communities_including_men Of course, we would need some admins willing to quickly ban disruptive (probably male) editors from editing that essay. Such an essay could be linked to a number of relevant projects and help pages and copied to all the languages. Thoughts? CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/25/2014 11:50 PM, Sarah wrote: We've got Wikipedia:Gendergap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gendergap that we could do something with, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force, which has members but hasn't been active. Sarah Thanks, Sarah. The first links to Meta. I completely forgot about the Gender Bias task force which I signed on to but evidently unwatched during some period of frustration. Of course, the task force only focuses on working on articles, not behavior problems women editors need help with. ... Perhaps the Gender Gap task force at least could allow links to actual ongoing ANIs/Editor Reviews/Arbitrations/noticeboards/etc. ... Hi Carol, we had a ruling from the ArbCom during the Chelsea Manning case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning_naming_dispute that said : Wikipedia editors and readers come from a diverse range of backgrounds, including with respect to their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex or gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression. Comments that demean fellow editors, an article subject, or any other person, on the basis of any of these characteristics are offensive and damage the editing environment for everyone. Such comments, particularly when extreme or repeated after a warning, are grounds for blocking or other sanctions. That could be used to stop sexist comments. Also, bear in mind that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force can be whatever we want it to be. It doesn't have to focus only on articles. If you want to become active there, posting links or whatever else would help, that would be great. I'd be very willing to help out too. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
A subpage in an existing project would be one idea but please not the Feminism
project. I was invited to it very early on by well meaning editors as a place
for such discussions but found sex-positive feminists who think female porn
stars are the definition of female empowerment.
Gender Studies is fine, but how about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination
Perhaps in the short-term the use of the following templates could be extended,
or similar templates developed to cover identified articles, so editors work on
draft changes on their user page, they are checked by gender-friendly
ambassadors who are also have specialist knowledge in the area that the article
covers. It would be less about taking on individual editors and their
behaviour, and more about saying, actually a decision has been made to put
this article under an umbrella.
* Template:WAP assignment
* Template:Educational assignment
* Template:Course assignment
Example template code:
{{main other||{{tmbox| image = [[File:Male_and_female_sign.svg|50px]]| style =
text-align:center;| text = This article {{#if:{{{ended|}}}|
{{#switch:{{{ended|}}}|NO|N|n|False|false|no=is|#default=was}}|is}} the subject
of gender related affirmative action {{#if:{{{university|}}}|at
{{{university} supported by
{{#if:{{{project|}}}|[[Wikipedia:{{{project}}}|{{{project}}}]] and}} the
Wikipedia Pro-female Ambassador Program{{#if:{{{term|}}}| #32;during the
{{{term}}} term}}
I noticed that Professor Diana Strassman, the founding editor of the journal
Feminist Economics is an Wikipedia editor (User:DStrassmann) and runs
Wikipedia Education Program Courses (although I don't see recent contributions
from her).
Co-editor of the journal is Professor Günseli Berik, she is also a Wikipedia
editor (User:BerikG) and also runs academic programs, perhaps she would like to
get involved.
Marie
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 18:49:46 -0400
From: carolmoor...@verizon.net
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On 6/23/2014 3:17 PM, Derric Atzrott
wrote:
Maybe
it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas.
If no one else does, I’d be happy to.
*Threads
here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to
our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one
thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too,
just for emphasis...
I’m not very familiar with the process
of starting Wikiprojects, but I imagine the biggest barrier
to entry to this would be finding someone for each
language. I imagine that this would work something like the
ambassador program, at least on the smaller Wikipedias.
This is to say on Wikipedias where the project is too small
to really have someone who can handle the Wikiproject we
would find a volunteer on Meta who speaks that language and
would have them generally just keep an eye on things. Each
of these Wikiprojects should have a noticeboard of some sort
that folks having issues can post to that the ambassador
type would keep an eye on.
Does this all sound reasonable?
Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
First, of course, there is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gender_Studies
which even has a Mind_the_Gap_Award And of course there is a
Wikiproject Feminism. And I'm sure other languages have such
projects.
Would it want to take on subpages that dealt with women's issues
with harassment, insults, double standards and the stickier problems
that bother women?
Of course, I remember when something with such a goal was proposed
way back in 2011 on this list there were concerns about it giving
women specifial privileges or something. I forget. People created
the Tea House instead.
But some relevant subgroup of Wikiproject Gender Studies or
Feminism, like anything else, some women hopefully have to spearhead
it and maintain it. I'm too burned out myself.
CM
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On 6/23/2014 3:17 PM, Derric Atzrott wrote: Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to. *Threads here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too, just for emphasis... I'm not very familiar with the process of starting Wikiprojects, but I imagine the biggest barrier to entry to this would be finding someone for each language. I imagine that this would work something like the ambassador program, at least on the smaller Wikipedias. This is to say on Wikipedias where the project is too small to really have someone who can handle the Wikiproject we would find a volunteer on Meta who speaks that language and would have them generally just keep an eye on things. Each of these Wikiprojects should have a noticeboard of some sort that folks having issues can post to that the ambassador type would keep an eye on. Does this all sound reasonable? Thank you, Derric Atzrott First, of course, there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gender_Studies which even has a Mind_the_Gap_Award And of course there is a Wikiproject Feminism. And I'm sure other languages have such projects. Would it want to take on subpages that dealt with women's issues with harassment, insults, double standards and the stickier problems that bother women? Of course, I remember when something with such a goal was proposed way back in 2011 on this list there were concerns about it giving women specifial privileges or something. I forget. People created the Tea House instead. But some relevant subgroup of Wikiproject Gender Studies or Feminism, like anything else, some women hopefully have to spearhead it and maintain it. I'm too burned out myself. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
