Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons + Indigenous + Gender

[Sarah Stierch]

WHOA why is all this old stuff surfacing?!

LOL. (::hides::)


-Sarah

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:46 AM, Sarah Stierch wrote:

> **
> Hi Aaron and everyone,
>
> This is a really painful thing for me to read. As a scholar, my research
> work has been based around the representation of Indigenous peoples of North
> America in media and culture. I sincerely doubt that any of the "tribal
> members" I know would say that this is a valid work that would showcase
> their Indigenous cultures as anything but another stereotype. Just as I'm
> sure some women of Tahiti today would question the relevance today of
> Gauguin's paintings which often showcased nude or partially nude Tahitian
> women - art revered by both genders and the Western art world. However, I'm
> not seeking to speak on behalf of these individuals and communities, nor am
> I hear to discuss the creators goal or context with this featured image.
> It's more of the fact that *this* is considered a choice for the featured
> front page and the concern that it has given me as a female contributor to
> Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, etc.
>
> You also stated that you do not want to compromise "our core values just to
> try to close a "gap" that some feel is such a big issue, if it even exists."
>
> This gap does exist, in fact an entire mailing list (which I have cc'd here
> and I encourage anyone interested in the topic to join) was created to work
> towards bridging this gap. This was triggered by an article titled "Define
> Gender Gap? Look Up Wikipedia's Contributor List" by Noam Cohen, published
> Jan 30 2011 in *The New York Times*:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/business/media/31link.html
>
> A great and interesting conversation took place by NYT to reflect on this
> situation, which you can read here:
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/02/where-are-the-women-in-wikipedia
>
> I do hope that perhaps those two articles can show you that there *is *a
> problem, and there are many concerned Wikipedians of all genders, skin
> tones, and identities aiming to change that. That is when images like this
> deter us from our expansive mission to be more inclusive.
>
> And this has nothing to do with me being "sensitive to toplessness" - you
> don't know anything about my lifestyle or character to assume that,
> regardless of where I live or where I was born.
>
> #wikilove,
>
> Sarah
>
>
> On 5/15/2011 10:53 PM, Aaron Adrignola wrote:
>
> Commons is not censored.  It's a beautiful scene and it would be expected
> that the an imaginary tribal member would not have the American
> sensitivities to toplessness.  Some images may offend.  Some articles may
> offend.  We're not going to compromise our core values just to try to close
> a "gap" that some feel is such a big issue, if it even exists.
>
> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 9:31 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FYI
>>
>>  Regards
>> Tinu Cherian
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Sarah Stierch 
>> Date: Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:33 AM
>> Subject: [Gendergap] Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
>> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects <
>> gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>
>>
>>  Surely I'm not the only one who noticed this lovely gem of a photo of the
>> day today. In my work environment - NFWS.
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> Direct link to image:
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
>>
>> I mean really? /facepalm
>>
>> This is the kind of imagery I have no desire to see on the front page of
>> Commons. I'm a very liberal person, but, this makes me not want to even
>> allow my MOTHER to use Commons.
>>
>> #wikilove,
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>>
>> --
>> Wikipedia Regional Ambassador, D.C. Region
>> Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art
>>
>> Sarah Stierch Consulting
>> Historical, cultural & artistic research, advising & event planning.
>> --
>> http://www.sarahstierch.com/
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>>
>>
>
>
> Wikipedia Regional Ambassador, D.C. Region
> Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art
> --
> Sarah Stierch Consulting
> Historical, cultural & artistic research, advising & event planning.
> --
> http://www.sarahstierch.com/
>
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>
>


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (reverted back)

[Béria Lima]

The captions were reverted as well.
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.***


2011/5/16 Neil Kandalgaonkar 

> Béria Lima changed the image back to the original "On the Edge" graphic.
>
> Given that there are some people who think I abused my staff status and/or
> didn't wait for consensus, I think I will bow out at this point, rather than
> get into a revert war on the Main Page.
>
> (However, note that the captions are now all wrong in other languages --
> some of them were updated in the meantime to reflect the Amazonian image.)
>
>
> --
> Neil Kandalgaonkar  |) 
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (reverted back)

[Neil Kandalgaonkar]

Béria Lima changed the image back to the original "On the Edge" graphic.

Given that there are some people who think I abused my staff status 
and/or didn't wait for consensus, I think I will bow out at this point, 
rather than get into a revert war on the Main Page.

(However, note that the captions are now all wrong in other languages -- 
some of them were updated in the meantime to reflect the Amazonian image.)


-- 
Neil Kandalgaonkar  |) 

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

>
> *Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
> being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
> administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
> that's a staff action.*
>

That said, changed the picture without any discussion, only because some
people don't want to see a half-naked anime girl on Main Page (btw: What is
the problem with that picture? I'm a girl, and i'm not AT ALL offended for
see that in main page) was a act that NO ONE should do without consensus.
Not an adm, not an editor, not a staff.

And do that by abusing the tools WMF and the communitty gave you only made
everything even worse.

That said, i restored the original image of the day and would love if you
people decide if the picture should stay or not in main page ON COMMONS.
_
*Béria Lima*
 (351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.***


2011/5/16 Aaron Adrignola 

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Neil Kandalgaonkar 
> wrote:
>
>> I changed the picture. I'd like to note that I did this not owing to any
>> 'authority' I might have as a WMF employee, just as a regular person
>> associated with Commons.
>>
>>
> Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
> being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
> administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
> that's a staff action.
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons + Indigenous + Gender

[Sarah Stierch]

Hi Aaron and everyone,

This is a really painful thing for me to read. As a scholar, my research 
work has been based around the representation of Indigenous peoples of 
North America in media and culture. I sincerely doubt that any of the 
"tribal members" I know would say that this is a valid work that would 
showcase their Indigenous cultures as anything but another stereotype. 
Just as I'm sure some women of Tahiti today would question the relevance 
today of Gauguin's paintings which often showcased nude or partially 
nude Tahitian women - art revered by both genders and the Western art 
world. However, I'm not seeking to speak on behalf of these individuals 
and communities, nor am I hear to discuss the creators goal or context 
with this featured image. It's more of the fact that /this/ is 
considered a choice for the featured front page and the concern that it 
has given me as a female contributor to Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, etc.


You also stated that you do not want to compromise "our core values just 
to try to close a "gap" that some feel is such a big issue, if it even 
exists."


This gap does exist, in fact an entire mailing list (which I have cc'd 
here and I encourage anyone interested in the topic to join) was created 
to work towards bridging this gap. This was triggered by an article 
titled "Define Gender Gap? Look Up Wikipedia's Contributor List" by Noam 
Cohen, published Jan 30 2011 in /The New York Times/:


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/business/media/31link.html

A great and interesting conversation took place by NYT to reflect on 
this situation, which you can read here:


http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/02/where-are-the-women-in-wikipedia

I do hope that perhaps those two articles can show you that there /is /a 
problem, and there are many concerned Wikipedians of all genders, skin 
tones, and identities aiming to change that. That is when images like 
this deter us from our expansive mission to be more inclusive.


And this has nothing to do with me being "sensitive to toplessness" - 
you don't know anything about my lifestyle or character to assume that, 
regardless of where I live or where I was born.


#wikilove,

Sarah


On 5/15/2011 10:53 PM, Aaron Adrignola wrote:
Commons is not censored.  It's a beautiful scene and it would be 
expected that the an imaginary tribal member would not have the 
American sensitivities to toplessness.  Some images may offend.  Some 
articles may offend.  We're not going to compromise our core values 
just to try to close a "gap" that some feel is such a big issue, if it 
even exists.


On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 9:31 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
mailto:tinucher...@gmail.com>> wrote:


FYI

Regards
Tinu Cherian

-- Forwarded message --
From: *Sarah Stierch* mailto:sa...@sarahstierch.com>>
Date: Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:33 AM
Subject: [Gendergap] Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>>


Surely I'm not the only one who noticed this lovely gem of a photo
of the day today. In my work environment - NFWS.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Direct link to image:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

I mean really? /facepalm

This is the kind of imagery I have no desire to see on the front
page of Commons. I'm a very liberal person, but, this makes me not
want to even allow my MOTHER to use Commons.

#wikilove,

Sarah


--
Wikipedia Regional Ambassador, D.C. Region
Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art

Sarah Stierch Consulting
Historical, cultural & artistic research, advising & event planning.
--
http://www.sarahstierch.com/ 

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on, Wikimedia Commons

[The Richardsons]

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Fred Bauder"
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on
    Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"

Message-ID:
<44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squir...@webmail.fairpoint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1



>  On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder
>  wrote:
>

>>

>>  >  My point is this: a significant number of women (current and

>>  potential

>>  >  editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
>>  >  whatever
>>  >  was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some*do*  mind.

>>

>
>

>>  So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
>>  sure
>>  you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
>>  heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
>>
>>  The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
>>  sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
>>  who
>>  feel they are being treated unfairly.

>
>
>  I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
>  sense
>  that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
>
>  Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
>  see
>  a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
>  without comment simply means they'll never stop.
>
>  We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
>  the
>  content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
>  the
>  course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
>  that
>  tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
>  different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
>  was,
>  and how he wanted to have her babies.
>
>  I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
>  that
>  I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
>  wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
>  about me, rather than about them.
>
>  I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
>  did
>  say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
>  than
>  screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
>  suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
>  remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
>  challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
>  it.
>  Not make a fuss.
>
>  So that felt kind of depressing.
>
>  Sarah

Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.

Fred





Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to "scream it from 
the rooftops" because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do that if I 
were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat things." That's 
my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I don't contribute especially often), 
and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be sure to say something.
--With well wishes.
RDW2210


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

>
>
>
>
> On May 18, 2011, at 12:47 PM, Sarah wrote:
>
>> I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on
>> talk asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was
>> and remain grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as
>> a matter of courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter
>> of courtesy. I wanted people to recognize that they were politically
>> unacceptable.
>>
>> Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I
>> really wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end.
>> Eventually it did die down and a couple of other editors stepped in,
>> and one of the earlier ones apologized, so it was okay.
>>
>> But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud.
>> I've thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then
>> people will cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments
>> are suddenly not permitted, and who is to judge whether they're
>> offensive, and will argue that not all women agree on definitions of
>> sexism anyway. So it felt like too much of an uphill struggle even to
>> begin it.
>
> This is the struggle of social justice issues on a wider scale, in many
> ways-- how can we address the -isms of the world in a way that enables
> processing and change to happen, versus pushing them further underground?
> In some ways, seeing terrible behavior is the unfortunate and painful
> reminder that there is work to be done... it's a balancing act that few
> have been able to pull off in the last couple decades, I feel. In any
> case, Sarah, I'm with you on this. You explain the challenges and
> frustrations well, in a way that I think represents how many
> previously-marginalized voices feel coming into these spaces.
>
>
> dz

Actually one of those "previously-marginalized voices" is that of
socially inept geeks who have little contact with women and are unaware
that there is even an issue. They are clever little devils though and
will learn quickly if they receive consistent feedback. We just need to
make sure they get it. This:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfrosch&diff=88991389&oldid=88542780

is a good example of taking it home to them.

Fred

Fred



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah]

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:52, Deanna Zandt  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On May 18, 2011, at 12:47 PM, Sarah wrote:
>
> I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on talk
> asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was and
> remain grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as a matter
> of courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter of courtesy. I
> wanted people to recognize that they were politically unacceptable.
>
> Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I really
> wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end. Eventually it
> did die down and a couple of other editors stepped in, and one of the
> earlier ones apologized, so it was okay.
>
> But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud. I've
> thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then people will
> cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments are suddenly not
> permitted, and who is to judge whether they're offensive, and will argue
> that not all women agree on definitions of sexism anyway. So it felt like
> too much of an uphill struggle even to begin it.
>
>
> This is the struggle of social justice issues on a wider scale, in many
> ways-- how can we address the -isms of the world in a way that enables
> processing and change to happen, versus pushing them further underground? In
> some ways, seeing terrible behavior is the unfortunate and painful reminder
> that there is work to be done... it's a balancing act that few have been
> able to pull off in the last couple decades, I feel. In any case, Sarah, I'm
> with you on this. You explain the challenges and frustrations well, in a way
> that I think represents how many previously-marginalized voices feel coming
> into these spaces.
>
>
> What I found upsetting was that a couple of the involved editors, one in
particular, were people I would regard as politically aware, even
progressive. Yet they simply could not see why what they wrote was
inappropriate, and seemed a little offended by the suggestion.

So I ended up feeling extremely marginalized and awkward. Say nothing, and
you feel as though you're being silenced, and worse than that you're
silencing yourself. Say something, and have the tables turned on you --
you're accusing, you're trying to censor, you're being too sensitive, you're
being offensive for pointing out the offence. I'm an experienced editor, yet
it made me feel very unsure of myself.

The worst thing is that I remember having discussions like this at
university more than a couple of decades ago. So what happened? We thought
we had sorted it all out! :)

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

You can be bold and write an essay Sarah. But to that became a policy the
community will need to agree. And in fact there are in en.wiki guidelines
about what not to write in a request for deletion, so you could create
somenthing like "what not to write in a Featured Picture request".
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal 
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Sarah 

>  On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:37, Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>>  > We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part
>> of
>> > the
>> > content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
>> > the
>> > course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
>> > that
>> > tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
>> > different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
>> > was,
>> > and how he wanted to have her babies.
>> >
>> > I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
>> > that
>> > I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
>> > wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said
>> something
>> > about me, rather than about them.
>> >
>> > I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
>> > did
>> > say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
>> > than
>> > screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
>> > suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
>> > remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
>> > challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
>> > it.
>> > Not make a fuss.
>> >
>> > So that felt kind of depressing.
>> >
>> > Sarah
>>
>> Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
>> dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
>> fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
>> happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
>> feedback effectively. A polite note fails.
>>
>> I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on
> talk asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was and
> remain grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as a matter
> of courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter of courtesy. I
> wanted people to recognize that they were politically unacceptable.
>
> Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I really
> wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end. Eventually it
> did die down and a couple of other editors stepped in, and one of the
> earlier ones apologized, so it was okay.
>
> But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud. I've
> thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then people will
> cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments are suddenly not
> permitted, and who is to judge whether they're offensive, and will argue
> that not all women agree on definitions of sexism anyway. So it felt like
> too much of an uphill struggle even to begin it.
>
> Sarah
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder  wrote:
> From: Fred Bauder 

> > I am sure the editor who said "I like her big tits"
> had that political
> > message in mind.
> 
> > Andreas
> 
> OK, Einstein, what is the psychological significance of a
> bare-breasted
> Liberty, as opposed to a modestly draped Liberty? It IS a
> revolutionary
> symbol.


I am more interested in the psychological significance of the fact that
Bunnyfrosch's user talk in German Wikipedia,

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfrosch

which his Commons talk page redirects to, features multiple contributors 
(including the editor who wrote the Featured Article on BDSM in German
Wikipedia) requesting of him that he should please stop adding links to porn
images to German Wikipedia articles.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Bunnyfrosch#Links_auf_Pornobilder

And more in that vein. 

I noticed that when I went to let him know, as a courtesy, that we were 
discussing his "Support i like her big tits" comment here. 

Andreas

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

not that i know Fred. And behaivor will be very difficult to fill in a
policy or guideline. but nothing prevent you from start a discussion about.
Be bold ;)
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal 
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Fred Bauder 

> > In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
> > change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).
>
> > _
> > *Béria Lima*
>
> So where is that discussion? I found Commons:Sexual content and
> Help:Sexual content and its talk page. But what we're talking about here
> is not content, but behavior, a sexist remark. Is that being discussed
> anywhere?
>
> Fred
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Deanna Zandt]

On May 18, 2011, at 12:47 PM, Sarah wrote:

> I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on talk 
> asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was and remain 
> grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as a matter of 
> courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter of courtesy. I 
> wanted people to recognize that they were politically unacceptable.
> 
> Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I really 
> wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end. Eventually it did 
> die down and a couple of other editors stepped in, and one of the earlier 
> ones apologized, so it was okay.
> 
> But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud. I've 
> thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then people will 
> cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments are suddenly not 
> permitted, and who is to judge whether they're offensive, and will argue that 
> not all women agree on definitions of sexism anyway. So it felt like too much 
> of an uphill struggle even to begin it.

This is the struggle of social justice issues on a wider scale, in many ways-- 
how can we address the -isms of the world in a way that enables processing and 
change to happen, versus pushing them further underground? In some ways, seeing 
terrible behavior is the unfortunate and painful reminder that there is work to 
be done... it's a balancing act that few have been able to pull off in the last 
couple decades, I feel. In any case, Sarah, I'm with you on this. You explain 
the challenges and frustrations well, in a way that I think represents how many 
previously-marginalized voices feel coming into these spaces.


dz


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah]

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:37, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> > We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
> > the
> > content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
> > the
> > course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
> > that
> > tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
> > different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
> > was,
> > and how he wanted to have her babies.
> >
> > I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
> > that
> > I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
> > wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
> > about me, rather than about them.
> >
> > I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
> > did
> > say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
> > than
> > screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
> > suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
> > remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
> > challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
> > it.
> > Not make a fuss.
> >
> > So that felt kind of depressing.
> >
> > Sarah
>
> Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
> dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
> fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
> happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
> feedback effectively. A polite note fails.
>
> I did say something in the end, and an uninvolved admin left a note on talk
asking that the remarks cease. And though he meant well, and I was and
remain grateful to him for stepping in, he asked that they cease as a matter
of courtesy to me. But I didn't want them to stop as a matter of courtesy. I
wanted people to recognize that they were politically unacceptable.

Then I had to explain why the remarks were offensive, when what I really
wanted was for them to end, and the meta-discussion to end. Eventually it
did die down and a couple of other editors stepped in, and one of the
earlier ones apologized, so it was okay.

But I would love to find a way to nip this kind of thing in the bud. I've
thought of trying to write an essay or a guideline -- but then people will
cry censorship, and will want to know what kind of comments are suddenly not
permitted, and who is to judge whether they're offensive, and will argue
that not all women agree on definitions of sexism anyway. So it felt like
too much of an uphill struggle even to begin it.

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> > My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
>> potential
>> > editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
>> > whatever
>> > was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.
>>
>
>
>> So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
>> sure
>> you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
>> heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
>>
>> The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
>> sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
>> who
>> feel they are being treated unfairly.
>
>
> I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
> sense
> that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
>
> Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
> see
> a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
> without comment simply means they'll never stop.
>
> We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
> the
> content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
> the
> course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
> that
> tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
> different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
> was,
> and how he wanted to have her babies.
>
> I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
> that
> I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
> wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
> about me, rather than about them.
>
> I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
> did
> say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
> than
> screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
> suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
> remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
> challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
> it.
> Not make a fuss.
>
> So that felt kind of depressing.
>
> Sarah

Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah]

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder  wrote:

>
> > My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential
> > editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
> > whatever
> > was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.
>


> So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure
> you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
> heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
>
> The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
> sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who
> feel they are being treated unfairly.


I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the sense
that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.

Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do see
a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
without comment simply means they'll never stop.

We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of the
content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In the
course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made that
tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she was,
and how he wanted to have her babies.

I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel) that
I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
about me, rather than about them.

I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I did
say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather than
screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about it.
Not make a fuss.

So that felt kind of depressing.

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> I am sure the editor who said "I like her big tits" had that political
> message in mind.

> Andreas

OK, Einstein, what is the psychological significance of a bare-breasted
Liberty, as opposed to a modestly draped Liberty? It IS a revolutionary
symbol.

Fred



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential
> editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
> whatever
> was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.

> Sarah

So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure
you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.

The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who
feel they are being treated unfairly.

Fred



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah]

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 09:45, Béria Lima  wrote:

> In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
> change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).
>
> Create a cruzade against that image would not change anything. And btw,
> take political, ideological or any other kind of ideas from a 5 words phrase
> requires much imagination. Is not better ask the person what he meant by
> that?
>

Hi Beria,

My point is this: a significant number of women (current and potential
editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere, whatever
was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.

So they are an important five words. Behind them lies a long and sorry tale
of sexism and objectification of women, and people thinking it's okay to
write and behave that way.

Some of us on this list would like to see that culture change, bit by bit.
Hard to know how to do that, and I take your point that it's not going to
change by singling out these five words. On the other hand, if not these
five words, which words? Change comes in tiny steps, each one perhaps
insignificant in itself.

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
> change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).

> _
> *Béria Lima*

So where is that discussion? I found Commons:Sexual content and
Help:Sexual content and its talk page. But what we're talking about here
is not content, but behavior, a sexist remark. Is that being discussed
anywhere?

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

In this case, Sarah, change the policy of what should be in Main Page, or
change the Sexual policy (in discussion by the way).

Create a cruzade against that image would not change anything. And btw, take
political, ideological or any other kind of ideas from a 5 words phrase
requires much imagination. Is not better ask the person what he meant by
that?
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal 
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Sarah 

>
>
>  On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:23, Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>>
>> > This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
>> > of comments like "I like her big tits", rather than artistic merit, and
>> > then featuring them on the main page.
>>
>> You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
>> discussions are evaluated.
>
>
> How do you know the comments were discounted, Fred? And that's not really
> the point anyway. The comments were made. People felt it was okay to make
> them. That's the culture we're trying to change.
>
> Sarah
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

I'm only warning a commons user that canvassing is not accepted. And since
you need to be warned on wiki, i did that. And btw, you don't recognize any
name, but I do (i will not mention here because that would be rude to then)

So, again, you will stop that idiot crusade against this picture and we can
move on to discuss the original propose of that list, or we will need to
change that to the Adm noticeboard in commons?
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt/>
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Andreas Kolbe 

>   --- On *Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima * wrote:
>
> From: Béria Lima 
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
> Commons
> To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" <
> gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:19
>
>
>  The community is already discussing this matter Andreas.
>
> What you are doing is, since your "vote" is not going the way you want (the
> picture, apparentely, will remain as a FP) you are canvassing votes here, so
> people can go there are vote to delist the image.
>
> That, my dear, is pure canvass, and is not allowed in any project.
>
> So, again, stop do that.
>
>
>  Dear Beria,
>
> You would have a leg to stand on if anyone, at all, who had read my posts
> on
> this or any other mailing list, had voted in my favour in these community
> discussions.
>
> I am not aware that anyone has. Of the 5 people who have voted to delist,
> I do not recognise a single name from the mailing lists. And I believe if
> anyone here had decided to vote, they would be experienced enough, and
> have enough integrity, to disclose along with their vote that they became
> aware of the discussion through a mailing list post.
>
> Further:
>
> If list members had commented, which they have not, and the vote were going
> against you, which it is not, you would be well within your rights to
> contest the
> result, and ask the community to look into any undue effect mailing list
> discussions may have had on the discussion. However, nothing like this has
> happened.
>
> As it is, you are out of line to threaten me on my Commons user page for
> participating in discussions on this list.
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah]

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:23, Fred Bauder  wrote:

>
> > This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
> > of comments like "I like her big tits", rather than artistic merit, and
> > then featuring them on the main page.
>
> You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
> discussions are evaluated.


How do you know the comments were discounted, Fred? And that's not really
the point anyway. The comments were made. People felt it was okay to make
them. That's the culture we're trying to change.

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> From: Fred Bauder 
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia 
> Commons
> To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 
> 
> Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 15:23

> No, the image had political content, read policy for
> Commons, as an
> allegory of Liberty. Bare breasts, although usually
> somewhat smaller
> breasts, are standard in images of Liberty, at least
> French, or European
> ones, see File:1672 Gérard de Lairesse - Allegory of the
> Freedom of
> Trade.jpg


I am sure the editor who said "I like her big tits" had that political 
message in mind.

 
> You keep saying, "just because it has tits in it". That is
> specious. See
> the author's note on the description of the image, "Author:
> Niabot,
> because commons should stay free“


I have honestly not seen Niabot claim that he was trying to riff on 
traditional bare-breasted representations of Liberty. The only person I 
have seen make that claim is you. Even if true, the question is whether
the artistic, historic and educational merit of this particular riff
on the Liberty figure warrant featuring this image. In my opinion, they
do not, and I honestly suspect any of these concerns were way over the
heads of those who voted for it.

Niabot has a recent habit of signing his images with a political tag line. 
The same "because commons should stay free" tag line is present in this 
close-up of the cat in the image:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version_(kitty_crop).jpg
 

Here (*deservedly* a featured picture by him), he says: “Niabot, because 
wikimedia commons lost his roots”.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anime_Girl.png

Personally I disagree with the statement, as the roots of Commons are not 
manga, or sites like DeviantArt, but in this case the image is deservedly 
featured.

The same "commons has lost its roots" tag line is also on these images: 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dojikko.png
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Futanari.png

I don't think the author's tag line affects image quality one way or the
other.

Andreas

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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> Could we agree that a decision not to feature a medicore and non-notable
> piece of original art that offers no or little educational value is _not_
> censorhip?
>
> And could we agree that featuring a medicore and non-notable piece of
> original art that offers no or little educational value, just because it
> has tits in it, is questionable?

No, the image had political content, read policy for Commons, as an
allegory of Liberty. Bare breasts, although usually somewhat smaller
breasts, are standard in images of Liberty, at least French, or European
ones, see File:1672 Gérard de Lairesse - Allegory of the Freedom of
Trade.jpg

You keep saying, "just because it has tits in it". That is specious. See
the author's note on the description of the image, "Author: Niabot,
because commons should stay free“

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima  wrote:From: Béria 
Lima 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:19

The community is already discussing this matter Andreas.
 
What you are doing is, since your "vote" is not going the way you want (the 
picture, apparentely, will remain as a FP) you are canvassing votes here, so 
people can go there are vote to delist the image. 

 
That, my dear, is pure canvass, and is not allowed in any project.
 
So, again, stop do that.

Dear Beria,
You would have a leg to stand on if anyone, at all, who had read my posts 
on this or any other mailing list, had voted in my favour in these 
communitydiscussions.
I am not aware that anyone has. Of the 5 people who have voted to delist,I do 
not recognise a single name from the mailing lists. And I believe ifanyone here 
had decided to vote, they would be experienced enough, andhave enough 
integrity, to disclose along with their vote that they becameaware of 
the discussion through a mailing list post.  
Further:
If list members had commented, which they have not, and the vote were 
goingagainst you, which it is not, you would be well within your rights to 
contest the result, and ask the community to look into any undue effect mailing 
listdiscussions may have had on the discussion. However, nothing like this 
hashappened.
As it is, you are out of line to threaten me on my Commons user page 
for participating in discussions on this list. 
Regards,Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> Fred, as I've already noted, the offending comment was apparently
> *not*eliminated from the final tally of the votes made by George
> Chernilevsky,
> though omitting it would not have changed the outcome of the vote.
>
> Nepenthe

It should not have been considered. That is our standard practice with
inane "reasons".

In the background is the question of whether something should have been
"done". What would be appropriate? A private note, a note on the users
talk page? A warning? Removal of the remark from the discussion? Deletion
of the edit? Suppression of the edit? Perhaps a discussion of the remark
at the Village Pump on Commons?

We do have a deletion reason WP:RD2

Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material that has little/no
encyclopedic or project value and/or violates our Biographies of living
people policy. This includes slurs, smears, and grossly offensive
material of little or no encyclopedic value, but not mere factual
statements, and not "ordinary" incivility, personal attacks or conduct
accusations. When attack pages or pages with grossly improper titles are
deleted, the page names may also be removed from the delete and page move
logs.

I think this falls within "ordinary incivility", but someone might have a
different opinion.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Fred Bauder  wrote:
> From: Fred Bauder 
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia 
> Commons
> To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 
> 
> Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 14:23
> > --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima
> 
> wrote:
> > From: Béria Lima 
> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the
> Day on Wikimedia
> > Commons
> > To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia
> projects"
> > 
> > Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54

> > This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in
> Foundation projects.
> > In the opinion of several contributors here, this
> specific issue is
> > profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set
> up to discuss.
> 
> I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from
> it.


Could we agree that a decision not to feature a medicore and non-notable piece 
of original art that offers no or little educational value is _not_ censorhip?

And could we agree that featuring a medicore and non-notable piece of original 
art that offers no or little educational value, just because it has tits in it, 
is questionable?


> > This includes Commons selecting images for featured
> status on the basis
> > of comments like "I like her big tits", rather than
> artistic merit, and
> > then featuring them on the main page.
> 
> You've been informed several times that such remarks are
> discounted when
> discussions are evaluated.


You have been informed several times that the comment was not discounted.

Those who supported featured status for the image explained their reasons as 
follows:

1. Support. Kawaii :) (Japanese for "cute" or "charming")

2. Support I like it. Well it's manga so the colors or landscape do not have to 
make sense ;-)

3. Support

4. Support Superb work

5. Support i like her big tits :-) 

6. Support i know that it was very much of work for the user. i have seen the 
first lines of it and can see now the result: a wunderful work.

7. Support - very good work.

8. strong  Support I have seen this work evolve and it is brilliant. Keep up 
the good work niabot! 

The end result was 8 support, 2 oppose, 2 neutral => featured.

Discussion here: 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

Personally, I found those who commented or opposed a bit more articulate than 
those who supported in that discussion.

Andreas


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Nepenthe]

Fred, as I've already noted, the offending comment was apparently
*not*eliminated from the final tally of the votes made by George
Chernilevsky,
though omitting it would not have changed the outcome of the vote.

Nepenthe

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> > --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima  wrote:
> > From: Béria Lima 
> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
> > Commons
> > To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
> > 
> > Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54
> >
> > Andreas,
> > Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
> > that.
> > That is my last warning
> >
> > This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects.
> > In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is
> > profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss.
>
> I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it.
>
> > This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
> > of comments like "I like her big tits", rather than artistic merit, and
> > then featuring them on the main page.
>
> You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
> discussions are evaluated.
>
> Fred
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima  wrote:
> From: Béria Lima 
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
> Commons
> To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
> 
> Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54
>
> Andreas,
> Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
> that.
> That is my last warning
>
> This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects.
> In the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is
> profoundly symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss.

I doubt women generally support censorship or benefit from it.

> This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis
> of comments like "I like her big tits", rather than artistic merit, and
> then featuring them on the main page.

You've been informed several times that such remarks are discounted when
discussions are evaluated.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

The community is already discussing this matter Andreas.

What you are doing is, since your "vote" is not going the way you want (the
picture, apparentely, will remain as a FP) you are canvassing votes here, so
people can go there are vote to delist the image.

That, my dear, is pure canvass, and is not allowed in any project.

So, again, stop do that.
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt/>
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Andreas Kolbe 

>   --- On *Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima * wrote:
>
> From: Béria Lima 
>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
> Commons
> To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" <
> gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54
>
>
>  Andreas,
>
> Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
> that.
> That is my last warning
>
>
> This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In
> the opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly
> symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss.
>
> This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of
> comments like "I like her big tits", rather than artistic merit, and then
> featuring them on the main page. Or creating categories like "People using
> vacuum cleaners".
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_using_vacuum_cleaners
>
> In my view, it's a basic community competence issue.
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Fred Bauder]

> This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading
> Commons:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg&action=historysubmit&diff=54489618&oldid=54483841
> Coming up with "stuff old women like" would actually be a good idea, but
> I don't think thecontributor meant it that way.

One misinformed user is not a climate of misogyny; and I must say, other
than one user, now banned, I've never encountered agism on our projects.
Although sometimes things older people know about are not understood or
appreciated by a crew of younger people.

Fred


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Thomas Koenig]

Beria,
 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:54:57 +0100
> From: "Béria Lima" 
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects 
> 
> Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on WikimediaCommons

> Andreas,
> 
> Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
> that.

Closing the gender gap is a political issue. How else other than canvassing are 
you gonna further that issue? Par ordre du mufti? You yourself rightfully 
criticized a WMF staff member for attempting to do so. Thus, this list is 
definitely a venue for canvassing.

Thomas aka fossa
-- 
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Wed, 18/5/11, Béria Lima  wrote:
From: Béria Lima 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 12:54

Andreas, 
Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for that.
That is my last warning

This list was set up to discuss systemic issues in Foundation projects. In the 
opinion of several contributors here, this specific issue is profoundly 
symptomatic of the issue this list was set up to discuss.
This includes Commons selecting images for featured status on the basis of 
comments like "I like her big tits", rather than artistic merit, and then 
featuring them on the main page. Or creating categories like "People using 
vacuum cleaners".
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_using_vacuum_cleaners
In my view, it's a basic community competence issue. Andreas



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

Andreas,

Again: Stop canvassing your POV!!! This list (and Commons-l) are not for
that.
That is my last warning
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt/>
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/18 Andreas Kolbe 

>   This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading
> Commons:
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg&action=historysubmit&diff=54489618&oldid=54483841
>
> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg&action=historysubmit&diff=54489618&oldid=54483841>Coming
> up with "stuff old women like" would actually be a good idea, but I don't
> think the
> contributor meant it that way.
>
> At this deletion request
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Paleis_lange_voorhout.jpg
>
> I pointed out that the creator of the manga image placed it on a photograph
> of the Escher
> museum, making it appear his image appeared there. This is deceptive, and
> against
> Commons image guidelines. The only response to the deletion request so far
> is a Keep.
>
> The request to remove featured status from the Edge of the World manga
> image, started
> independently of our discussions by a Russian Wikipedia editor, is heading
> for a Keep:
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/removal/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
>
> Here is the original nomination:
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
>
> The image failed to achieve featured status in German Wikipedia:
>
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kandidaten_f%C3%BCr_exzellente_Bilder/Archiv2011/1#On_the_edge_.E2.80.93_2._Januar_bis_16._Januar_-_Contra
>
> 7 for, 8 against, which based on objective criteria of artistic and
> educational merit is still kind
> to the image.
>
> I am thinking of writing a letter to the Commons Village Pump to ask the
> community to take
> a long hard look at its basic competence.
>
> Sue, any ideas?
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 17/5/11, Sarah Stierch * wrote:
>
>
> From: Sarah Stierch 
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia
> Commons
> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 16:19
>
>
> Hi dz,
>
> Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been *really* busy the past
> few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California, and GLAM related
> activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I haven't had time to sit
> down and get my "stuff together" for the HOW-TO. But, I'd love to add you to
> our HOW-TO gang if you like.
>
> =)
>
> Sarah
>
>
> On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote:
>
>
> I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last week
> was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... having the
> right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to make that key more
> widely available, or second nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog
> about it soon. In any case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in
> general from that noob perspective.
>
>
>
> cheers
> dz
>
>
>  On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch 
> http://mc/compose?to=sa...@sarahstierch.com>
> > wrote:
>
>  On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
> -Pete
>
> I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to
> see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where
> do we start? ;-)
>
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).
>
> My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem --
> or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining
> where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:
>
> (1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of
> unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
> (2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial
> values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons;
> (3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to
> un

Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

This response here is emblematic of the misogyny and ageism pervading Commons:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg&action=historysubmit&diff=54489618&oldid=54483841
Coming up with "stuff old women like" would actually be a good idea, but I 
don't think thecontributor meant it that way.
At this deletion request
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Paleis_lange_voorhout.jpg
I pointed out that the creator of the manga image placed it on a photograph of 
the Escher museum, making it appear his image appeared there. This is 
deceptive, and against Commons image guidelines. The only response to the 
deletion request so far is a Keep.
The request to remove featured status from the Edge of the World manga image, 
startedindependently of our discussions by a Russian Wikipedia editor, is 
heading for a Keep:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/removal/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
Here is the original nomination:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
The image failed to achieve featured status in German Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kandidaten_f%C3%BCr_exzellente_Bilder/Archiv2011/1#On_the_edge_.E2.80.93_2._Januar_bis_16._Januar_-_Contra
7 for, 8 against, which based on objective criteria of artistic and educational 
merit is still kindto the image.
I am thinking of writing a letter to the Commons Village Pump to ask the 
community to takea long hard look at its basic competence. 
Sue, any ideas?
Andreas


--- On Tue, 17/5/11, Sarah Stierch  wrote:

From: Sarah Stierch 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 16:19



  


  
  
Hi dz,



Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been really
busy the past few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California,
and GLAM related activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I
haven't had time to sit down and get my "stuff together" for the
HOW-TO. But, I'd love to add you to our HOW-TO gang if you like.



=)



Sarah





On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote:

  

  
  I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of
  last week was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about
  access... having the right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and
  aid. How to make that key more widely available, or second
  nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. In any
  case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general
  from that noob perspective.
  

  
  

  
  

  
  cheers
  dz

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  

  


  












  On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
  

  On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM,
Sarah Stierch 
wrote:


  

   On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth
wrote:


  Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete


  
  I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for
  Wiki. I do want to see all of these topics covered -
  and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where do we
  start? ;-) 
  
  

  
  Hi Sarah,
  

  
  I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And
anyone else).
  

  
  My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in
identifying the problem -- or rather, evaluating the
collection of interrelated issues, and determining where
it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to
me a

Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah Stierch]

Hi dz,

Great to hear you'd like to be involved. I've been /really/ busy the 
past few weeks with finishing school, a trip to California, and GLAM 
related activities (oh and Regional Ambassadorness!) - so I haven't had 
time to sit down and get my "stuff together" for the HOW-TO. But, I'd 
love to add you to our HOW-TO gang if you like.


=)

Sarah


On 5/17/2011 8:17 AM, Deanna Zandt wrote:


I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last 
week was incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... 
having the right key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to 
make that key more widely available, or second nature/common 
knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. In any case, I'd like to 
come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general from that noob perspective.




cheers
dz


On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch 
mailto:sa...@sarahstierch.com>> wrote:


On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete

I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do
want to see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in
anyway I can. Where do we start? ;-)


Hi Sarah,

I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).

My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the 
problem -- or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated 
issues, and determining where it's best to focus. The things that 
seem significant to me are:


(1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of 
unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
(2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of 
editorial values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on 
Commons;
(3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are 
difficult to understand and poorly documented.


How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently 
work? I think that process will point the way toward recommending a 
solution.


I've set up a page for this project, if you're game! 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD


-Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Deanna Zandt]

I'd also be interested in contributing-- the BLP experience of last week was 
incredibly enlightening, and got me thinking about access... having the right 
key unlocked a wealth of knowledge and aid. How to make that key more widely 
available, or second nature/common knowledge? I'm hoping to blog about it soon. 
In any case, I'd like to come at some of the HOW-TO issues in general from that 
noob perspective.



cheers
dz


On May 16, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch  
> wrote:
> On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>> Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
>> -Pete
> I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to see 
> all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where do 
> we start? ;-) 
> 
> Hi Sarah,
> 
> I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).
> 
> My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem -- or 
> rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining 
> where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:
> 
> (1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of unnecessary 
> strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
> (2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial values 
> around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons;
> (3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to 
> understand and poorly documented.
> 
> How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently work? I 
> think that process will point the way toward recommending a solution.
> 
> I've set up a page for this project, if you're game! 
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD
> 
> -Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Gillian White]

This anime image is not appropriate on the front page. Questions of art, of
education, and of publication, all require judgement. Judgement in these
matters is normal and necessary and is not of itself something which needs
apology. Here are some reasons why I think it is okay to decide NOT to put
this picture on the front page. This is not to say that it should be
deleted, it is simply not appropriate for the front page – and that does not
constitute censorship.

 The commonality of discriminatory product placement

Most areas of endeavour exercise care and some discrimination about their
products. It's not that they are illegal or censored; it's that they are
inappropriate in some places. For example, at a recent exhibition in the Art
Gallery of New South Wales, a very explicit drawing was placed at the far
end of the exhibition and a sign was placed discreetly to inform members of
the public who had to make a choice about whether to view them. In the case
of Wikimedia, there might be gory images, for example, of the effect of
land-mines which explode in children's faces. They are probably valuable –
encyclopedic and even educational – but would they be appropriate on the
front page? Their value is not diminished by leaving them in the body of the
repository and it is not censorship to make some small efforts necessary to
access them.

 The woman's body

If you put a large-breasted indigenous naked woman in an image, people would
not be commenting on the size of her breasts. They would see them as part of
the woman herself, whereas the breasts on which people have commented in
this anime are plainly “designed” for service to (some) viewers. In fact,
this image's offensiveness to many comes not from the size of the breasts
but rather from the whole backbreaking pose of the woman.

 Art and education

If this is a form of art, the question is not whether or not you like the
breasts (there are lots of breasts in art) but whether the art has its own
integrity. That is an aesthetic question, which is why the colour palette is
not under challenge as it contributes to the integrity of the image. Commons
has criteria for aesthetic quality, but they do not specify or restrict
subject matter. However, whether you like this art or any component part of
it in any image is irrelevant. Audience approval of the “tits” is only
relevant if the image is about titillation. Only if this is the purpose,
does the approval of the pose and body parts become relevant.

 If the image is not about art but is rather about education, then the
subject's body and pose are misleading, as are the clothes and everything
else, even the colour palette. Above all, if it is about education, then an
argument that its primary purpose to educate about the art form (manga) or
the medium (the software) is spurious and disingenuous.

Thanks,

Whiteghost.ink

PS I am a newbie female Åustralian Wikipedian and have been following this
list for a while but this is my first contribution to it. I really think
this is the wrong sort of image for the front page. Apart from all the other
arguments, I think it is likely to deter whole demographics (plural) from
contributing to any of the WM projects.
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Pete Forsyth]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Sarah Stierch wrote:

>  On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
> -Pete
>
> I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to
> see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. Where
> do we start? ;-)
>

Hi Sarah,

I'd be really happy to work on this with you! (And anyone else).

My sense is that there's a lot of work to do in identifying the problem --
or rather, evaluating the collection of interrelated issues, and determining
where it's best to focus. The things that seem significant to me are:

(1) Picture of the Day on Commons often seems to be the source of
unnecessary strife (moreso than, say, PotD on English Wikipedia);
(2) It appears that there is not a clearly identified set of editorial
values around what DOES constitute a worthwhile PotD on Commons;
(3) The technical and social processes for setting a PotD are difficult to
understand and poorly documented.

How about if we collaborate a bit on documenting how things currently work?
I think that process will point the way toward recommending a solution.

I've set up a page for this project, if you're game!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Peteforsyth/PotD

-Pete
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Nepenthe]

I was all ready to point out that administrators (at least on en.wiki,
theoretically) discount comments like that, but that was *not* done in this
case per the closing summary.

Nepenthe

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Sarah  wrote:

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:36, Sarah Stierch wrote:
>
>>  If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what
>> goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found out
>> about this today, and I look forward to contributing:
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates
>>
>> One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the
>> featured "fictional" person had "big tits."
>>
>>
> The breasts were indeed a factor, and one comment in favour was "i like her
> big tits".
>
> The old discussion is here --
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/candidate_list&oldid=48076437#File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg.2C_featured
>
> Sarah
>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:36, Sarah Stierch  wrote:

>  If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what
> goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found out
> about this today, and I look forward to contributing:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates
>
> One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the
> featured "fictional" person had "big tits."
>
>
The breasts were indeed a factor, and one comment in favour was "i like her
big tits".

The old discussion is here --
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Featured_picture_candidates/candidate_list&oldid=48076437#File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg.2C_featured

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah Stierch]

On 5/16/2011 11:49 AM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete



As we know on this list, inclusiveness is a key to making Wikimedia what 
it is. I do wish that I could erase the 'your country vs. my country' 
ideals that are within many of these peoples heads.


I'm working on diving into the HOW-TO this summer for Wiki. I do want to 
see all of these topics covered - and I'll contribute in anyway I can. 
Where do we start? ;-)


Side note re: Commons image:

If anyone is interested in contributing to the decisions made about what 
goes up on the front page of Commons, please visit here, I just found 
out about this today, and I look forward to contributing:


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates

One of the reasons for approving the image of the day was because the 
featured "fictional" person had "big tits."


#wikilove,

Sarah


--
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Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art 


--
Sarah Stierch Consulting
Historical, cultural & artistic research, advising & event planning.
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http://www.sarahstierch.com/
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Pete Forsyth]

In my opinion there's a large and pervasive problem behind today's controversy: 
in striking contrast to our core value of openness, it is very difficult to 
even *perceive* how important decisions like this are made. Both the technical 
and the editorial processes are pretty opaque to the average main page visitor.

I suspect there are ways the Commons pages relating to Picture of the Day could 
be improved to make it clearer to the reader how decisions are made, and how to 
meaningfully participate in those processes.

For instance, main page content could have a link named something like "how did 
this get here?" that would permit the reader to view the discussion that led to 
its inclusion on the main page. (This is just an off-the-cuff idea, to 
illustrate the general kind of usability changes I would like to explore.)

To put it another way, the issue behind today's controversy that interests me 
most is access. Increasing the ability of a large and diverse group to 
participate in important decisions (like what gets featured on the main Commons 
page) is something that would both honor the basic values of our project, and 
(I believe) support better content decisions in the future.

Anybody interested in tackling this issue?
-Pete


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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Andreas Kolbe]

--- On Mon, 16/5/11, Béria Lima  wrote:
From: Béria Lima 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 14:10


That
 said, changed the picture without any discussion, only because some 
people don't want to see a half-naked anime girl on Main Page (btw: What
 is the problem with that picture? I'm a girl, and i'm not AT ALL 
offended for see that in main page) was a act that NO ONE should do 
without consensus. Not an adm, not an editor, not a staff. 


And do that by abusing the tools WMF and the communitty gave you only made 
everything even worse. 

That
 said, i restored the original image of the day and would love if you 
people decide if the picture should stay or not in main page ON COMMONS

I still don't understand what that image that you restored is doing on the main 
page ofCommons. If I record an original, unpublished post-punk song with my 
completely non-notable garage band, will you feature that too on the main page, 
as an educational exampleof post-punk? If not, how is that image different?
Does Commons now provide free advertising for up-and-coming artists eager to 
makea name for themselves?
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Béria Lima]

>
> *Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
> being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
> administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
> that's a staff action.*
>

That said, changed the picture without any discussion, only because some
people don't want to see a half-naked anime girl on Main Page (btw: What is
the problem with that picture? I'm a girl, and i'm not AT ALL offended for
see that in main page) was a act that NO ONE should do without consensus.
Not an adm, not an editor, not a staff.

And do that by abusing the tools WMF and the communitty gave you only made
everything even worse.

That said, i restored the original image of the day and would love if you
people decide if the picture should stay or not in main page ON COMMONS
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal 
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer.*


2011/5/16 Aaron Adrignola 
>
>> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Neil Kandalgaonkar 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I changed the picture. I'd like to note that I did this not owing to any
>>> 'authority' I might have as a WMF employee, just as a regular person
>>> associated with Commons.
>>>
>>>
>> Actually, given that the template was cascade protected by virtue of it
>> being on the main page, only administrators can edit it.  You're not an
>> administrator on Commons, but you do have a staff flag.  Therefore I'd say
>> that's a staff action.
>>
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>>
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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Sarah Stierch]

Thanks Steven - I appreciate that you fought the good fight and I'm 
disgusted that comments about T&A were some of the key reasons for this 
feature.


While I've seen my fair share of anime videos (Tentacles and /all/ that 
involves) - It was an epic fail when I was looking up an image with my 
65 year old father and that was the image on the front page. The first 
question he asks is: "This is the organization you volunteer for?"


Images like this have their place, and despite the artistic skill of the 
contributor it is really disappointing that this was chosen to showcase 
quality media on Commons. it sets back the work of those of us working 
towards broadening gender equality and female involvement in Wikimedia.


I also am proud of my new title of being a Regional Ambassador and I am 
working towards becoming a GLAM Ambassador - images like this being 
showcased do 'few wonders' for my efforts in regards to fighting the 
uphill battle to show Wikipedia, Commons, etc. as reliable and quality 
starting points for research, development and cultural dissemination.


#wikilove,

Sarah



On 5/15/2011 10:48 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 7:31 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
mailto:tinucher...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Surely I'm not the only one who noticed this lovely gem of a photo
of the day today. In my work environment - NFWS.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Direct link to image:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg

I mean really? /facepalm

This is the kind of imagery I have no desire to see on the front
page of Commons. I'm a very liberal person, but, this makes me not
want to even allow my MOTHER to use Commons.

#wikilove,

Sarah


I feel exactly the same way. This is an insult to the people who value 
the educational spirit of Commons.


I attempted to argue that the image didn't meet the featured criteria 
of Commons, but was drowned out by voters such as the one who argued 
without irony, "{{Support}} I like her big tits".


Whether or not Commons should host such images is really a separate 
argument than whether we want to feature topless anime as the best of 
the content we have.


Steven



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Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons

[Ryan Kaldari]

So you're arguing that the woman is topless in order to conform to realistic
portrayals of indigenous people? That's the biggest pile of bullshit I've
heard in years.

Every few months one of the usual suspects nominates porn to be featured on
Commons and we have to go through the same circus-show all over again. It's
always porn for a male heterosexual audience, and it's always defended with
cries against the evils of censorship and disingenuous arguments about the
"educational value" of the image. I'm all for Commons hosting a wide array
of uncensored images, but I'm tired of seeing the Main Page being used as a
fap gallery for fanboys. Whether you agree with it or not, featuring such
images is distasteful to a lot of people - and not necessarily because they
are "prudish" or "religious". I don't see how exercising editorial judgement
about our public image and being respectful of women is "compromising our
core values". Driving people away from the site and eroding our reputation
as a serious educational resource do nothing to improve the project. If you
want to fight against censorship, help defend the "Rape", "Rape statistics",
and "False accusation of rape" articles against antimisandry.com. Or better
yet, file a DMCA counter-notice to restore the links in the "Texas
Instruments signing key controversy" article. For some reason people don't
seem as concerned about the real incidents of censorship on our projects.

Ryan Kaldari

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:53 AM, Aaron Adrignola
wrote:

> Commons is not censored.  It's a beautiful scene and it would be expected
> that the an imaginary tribal member would not have the American
> sensitivities to toplessness.  Some images may offend.  Some articles may
> offend.  We're not going to compromise our core values just to try to close
> a "gap" that some feel is such a big issue, if it even exists.
>
> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 9:31 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FYI
>>
>> Regards
>> Tinu Cherian
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Sarah Stierch 
>> Date: Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:33 AM
>> Subject: [Gendergap] Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
>> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects <
>> gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>
>>
>>  Surely I'm not the only one who noticed this lovely gem of a photo of the
>> day today. In my work environment - NFWS.
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> Direct link to image:
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:On_the_edge_-_free_world_version.jpg
>>
>> I mean really? /facepalm
>>
>> This is the kind of imagery I have no desire to see on the front page of
>> Commons. I'm a very liberal person, but, this makes me not want to even
>> allow my MOTHER to use Commons.
>>
>> #wikilove,
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>>
>> --
>> Wikipedia Regional Ambassador, D.C. Region
>> Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art
>>
>> Sarah Stierch Consulting
>> Historical, cultural & artistic research, advising & event planning.
>> --
>> http://www.sarahstierch.com/
>>
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