Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
It has been concerning me for a while reading this discussion that the accusations rest heavily on an expectation that everyone can and should master English (and even American English) as well as write the language in an acceptable tone. This is a huge ask. Getting the tone right demands a very high level of skill along with a deep knowledge of a culture. Regardless of what you think of Beria's points, it is very unfair to demand anyone from a non-English-speaking background to learn English and it is certainly counterproductive in a global project. I admire her for continuing to contribute but I watch with some trepidation as non-English speakers are encouraged to unsubscribe. Arnaud's voice was different too and it has now apparently gone. You might be amused by an example of how difficult getting the tone right can be - at Wikimania, someone on stage cheerily encouraged the audience to go out and kick ass. Hearing this, I thought of the poor donkeys, which, of course, is what asses are - *Equus africanus asinus - *as Wikipedia helpfully explains. I was taken aback. Why are we being encouraged to brutalise these poor animals? It's not only cruel, it's senseless and inappropriate. However, being a VERY experienced English speaker, and cross-referencing the body language against the phrase, I twigged. Aha! It's slang for something. :) But heaven help the non-English speakers in the audience. My point is that here you don't have the body-language to help and we do need other voices. Girls is one of the least of our problems. Similarly, women who don't want to be feminists are okay too. In the first wave, some women campaigned against getting the vote and in the second wave, we had to cope with Women who want to be Women. (It was a political party). We are a contrary bunch and the issues remain difficult. Gillian On 2 October 2011 16:26, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 21:27, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: ... (On the other hand, people on this list have a habit of using males to refer to men and women to refer to women. Flip side of the same coin, perhaps?). Interesting point, Nathan, that I hadn't noticed. But I have noticed the opposite on Wikipedia -- that women are often referred to as females, rather than women. It reads to my eyes as though a man is regarded as the default human position, and a female is another version. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
I apologize if you are offended and find this discouraging, but I am not apologizing for what I've said. And putting a happy face at the end of your comment does not mean you haven't invalidated my opinions. I voiced opinions that I know several people on this list, let alone many women on Wikipedia, are thinking. I may be very blunt in my style, and this might put people off of me, but I found what Beria said to be more insulting and discouraging. First of all, she claimed that the OP lied--when the op simply wrote an opinion piece about how she feels Wikipedia should work to create a more diverse atmosphere and friendly environment for women. While opinion can be wrong, while you can tell lies in your opinion, several of us found no lies in her comments, and Beria had no evidence in her comment linked to support her claim, just comments disagreeing with the OP's blog post. Second, she referred to women as girls. Which, as far as I know with any woman, is incredibly insulting and a way of one-upping someone. I'll assume you are a man because your name is Rupert. I'm sure you know if another man called you a boy it would be emasculating. It is the same for women. It's also something women have battled with for years--people still call grown women girls, no matter how much we fight it. Third, the 9% of women's opinions were completely invalidated by her, as well as the over all opinion of women who do not have accounts on WP, those who merely view WP--those who have only edited as IPs, etc. And as I said overall women's opinions are not allowed on crucial issues due to canvassing rules. These rules are specifically made to serve the community, who is mainly male, and not serve the readers, which WP is creating its pages for. Because these womens' opinions can't be heard, there are no girls screaming to tear apart all images. It's because the women who are angry about them are silenced. To address Erik's point from the same post, I would also hesitate to say that WP is the result of reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people. Oh yes, there are some that fit that description, but to assume that everyone on there works this way is just wrong. Many of the people who spend the most time there are those who have little to do with their time. Those who are busy putting flat-out porn on the site are not of the reasonable sort. Those busy making it their hobby to delete pages and categories without regard to reason are not of the intelligent sort. True we have fine people on Wikipedia--they are varied like the population on earth. But to say they are all intelligent, reasonable, and thoughtful is incredibly naive. There are also users who have no problem letting people know about their possibly illegal or creepy activities via their edit history, apparently. You should probably find this encouraging more than anything--and I would find it interesting if a grass-roots canvassing campaign were put in place to get more women involved in WP. --Maggie On 10/1/2011 10:08 AM, rupert THURNER wrote: maggie, this email was not very nice and encouraging ... maybe even the opposite of nice and encouraging :) On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 15:55, Maggie rockerre...@gmail.com wrote: @Beria I'm not clear what point you are trying to prove, other than the 9% of girls' voices don't matter. I also find it questionable that you refer to women as girls and don't hesitate ponder why you don't call men boys. Many women, like myself, get driven off of WP due to frustration with the hierarchy, which does exist. Women are treated with less respect, women are questioned for their motives, women are called prudish if they object to sexualizing images--or they are told their voices are not important because they only comprise 9% of the population. Why do you think they only comprise 9% then? My goal on WP is to make it more diverse, and TBH I'm not too into this picture discussion that has gone on for months. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't matter or it isn't an important one, and it doesn't mean that the women who care about it aren't important. Offense is not the reason here, IMO. Offense barely scratches the surface. I can imagine that many of the people on this list are angry--they are angry that women are being objectified and because women are in the minority on the community and it's an uninviting, sometimes terribly creepy atmosphere, their voices do not matter. As for badly written? My god that is the worst you can say? In writing terms that is just snide and a low blow. Basically, only someone who can think of no other insult would say this. Well it's badly written and has spelling mistakes! Come on, get a fucking life. Wikipedia is set up so that only people who look for these articles/pictures will know about voting procedures. So of course if there is a vote, the majority would probably be overall positive unless serious canvassing went on to let people who care about the other side know about it so it evens out.
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
One word on the girl thing: Maggie, you should keep in mind that Béria is not a native speaker of English but of Portuguese. In German of course it would be quite offensive to call a grown up woman or a group of women Mädchen. Regards Ralph Von: gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Maggie Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Oktober 2011 19:38 An: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5 I apologize if you are offended and find this discouraging, but I am not apologizing for what I've said. And putting a happy face at the end of your comment does not mean you haven't invalidated my opinions. I voiced opinions that I know several people on this list, let alone many women on Wikipedia, are thinking. I may be very blunt in my style, and this might put people off of me, but I found what Beria said to be more insulting and discouraging. (...) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
Hi I am mostly active on other ML and signed on to Gender gap list solely to respond to Maggie and Sarah. Let me be clear, Rupert thruner and Pete are both right, you were not nice at all in your previous response and border-line uncivil, Maggie. And you are not blunt, maybe slightly misinformed. Your opinion about Canvassing is flat-out false, Pete pointed you to the correct link, you might want to read what it actually means first. What you might be referring to is the disparity between the involvement of readers and editors, which is based on the presumption that demographic among readers, is more balanced than editors. There are actually statistics to look up for this, and it is not. There is no barrier for entry for a reader to vote, or becoming an editor. The Canvassing rules are there to make sure no editor influences another non-involved voter. It is intended to keep the voting strictly limited to the issue, and not bring any off-issue influence in the matter. I enjoyed reading Many of the people who spend the most time there are those who have little to do with their time., thank you for denigrating our work, we didn't do it for money, yes, and because we don't have anything better to do but to keep putting and maintaining the content, for random readers and people like you. About Beria, I would first like to point that English is not her first language along with others, and might even be our second or third. There are cultural differences, and a whole host of linguistic/ethnographic reasons why she chooses to say 'girl' instead of a woman. If either of you have talked with her on IRC, you would know this. I'm sure you looked at her contributions, but allow me to rehash for a moment- she has over 60,000 global edits and has been a Wikipedian for 5 years, started a Wikimedia chapter, worked on several Wikimedia conferences and Wikimanias and even ran for steward - which if anyone here knows, is something that requires a great deal of knowledge and standing within the community. She happens to have a few hundred friends on Wiki and IRC who she converses with regularly, I am one of them. She also has a fair deal of experience with being harassed on-wiki for sexist stuff over the years, some as recently as last month[1]. I have never seen her once stop or break-down, she never even took the harassment personally and behaved like an up-standing community member each time. Excuse me, if I am offended when you discount opinion from someone like her, just because she doesn't agree with you or comes off too harsh. Sarah, I am not sure what you've been trying to say lately[2]. With all due respect, it seems you are recounting your own experience and past on most issue and topic, which lately, has been hard to separate from any on-topic comment. Your posts yesterday to Foundation-l mostly recounted your sexual education from Playboys and Madonna's SEX [3] or talked about how children want juicy, fun, colorful, exciting content and Not a bunch of writing[4]. I am also highly uncertain how you can claim to be pansexual or like pornography[3] and yet be grossed out by a picture of a vagina on an article about vagina[5]. I am not sure if those positions are mutually exclusive since you call yourself a feminist in the same line. You have the right to discount my opinion since I can know nothing about feminism and it can be whatever you want it to be, so I will stop there and only ask for civility. Regards Theo [1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems/Archive_22#User:Wuhazet [2]http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-October/001675.html [3] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/069108.html [4] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/069119.html [5] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/067980.html On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 11:08 PM, Maggie rockerre...@gmail.com wrote: I apologize if you are offended and find this discouraging, but I am not apologizing for what I've said. And putting a happy face at the end of your comment does not mean you haven't invalidated my opinions. I voiced opinions that I know several people on this list, let alone many women on Wikipedia, are thinking. I may be very blunt in my style, and this might put people off of me, but I found what Beria said to be more insulting and discouraging. First of all, she claimed that the OP lied--when the op simply wrote an opinion piece about how she feels Wikipedia should work to create a more diverse atmosphere and friendly environment for women. While opinion can be wrong, while you can tell lies in your opinion, several of us found no lies in her comments, and Beria had no evidence in her comment linked to support her claim, just comments disagreeing with the OP's blog post. Second, she referred to women as girls. Which, as far as I know with any woman, is incredibly insulting and a way of
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
--- On Sat, 1/10/11, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Sarah, I am not sure what you've been trying to say lately[2]. Rest assured that it made perfect sense to others. ;) A.___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 1:34 AM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On *Sat, 1/10/11, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com* wrote: Sarah, I am not sure what you've been trying to say lately[2]. Rest assured that it made perfect sense to others. ;) Wonderful, now I can finally sleep in peace knowing that it made sense to you. One of these days, I do wish to possess the keen intellect and cultural outlook to see how googling sucking my own cock or the search relevance for auto-fellatio pertained to the discussion[1][2] but that just might be me. Since that is all I saw in response to a link to a post on Foundation-l. Regards Theo [1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-October/001675.html [2] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-September/001650.html ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 14:25, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 1:34 AM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On *Sat, 1/10/11, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com* wrote: Sarah, I am not sure what you've been trying to say lately[2]. Rest assured that it made perfect sense to others. ;) Wonderful, now I can finally sleep in peace knowing that it made sense to you. One of these days, I do wish to possess the keen intellect and cultural outlook to see how googling sucking my own cock or the search relevance for auto-fellatio pertained to the discussion[1][2] but that just might be me. Since that is all I saw in response to a link to a post on Foundation-l. Regards Theo Theo, the purpose of this list is how to increase female participation in Wikimedia projects. It is a tiny corner of the project that we have tried to keep focused, and if we lose that focus, we will lose subscribers. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
On Oct 1, 2011, at 1:25 PM, Theo10011 wrote: Wonderful, now I can finally sleep in peace knowing that it made sense to you. Theo..please calm down. Plenty of us read and understand Sarah's posts, plenty of us read and understand your posts. This is not us vs. them. If you're feeling worked up about this, it might not be the best time to post to the list. Heavy sarcasm on a public list is rarely helpful. -Pete ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Maggie rockerre...@gmail.com wrote: snip Second, she referred to women as girls. Which, as far as I know with any woman, is incredibly insulting and a way of one-upping someone. I'll assume you are a man because your name is Rupert. I'm sure you know if another man called you a boy it would be emasculating. It is the same for women. It's also something women have battled with for years--people still call grown women girls, no matter how much we fight it. snip Many of the people who spend the most time there are those who have little to do with their time. Those who are busy putting flat-out porn on the site are not of the reasonable sort. snip --Maggie I've always heard that one of the things that drives many people, not just women, away from Wikipedia is the sometimes aggressive and angry tone of discussion. I've heard a lot of people complain, even on this list, that people make assumptions about them based on their gender, or based on short comments misunderstood, etc. When the level of discourse really starts to degenerate (like to accusations of lying, or remarks like get a fucking life), it's an opportunity to take a step back and get some good perspective on what the problem is and where it comes from. Whatever causes it on-wiki, we obviously haven't escaped it here. Nathan P.S.: I often hear both men and women describe others as boys or girls without meaning anything diminutive or emasculating, etc. Maybe it's a regional thing; inferring an insult from it, especially from someone from another continent raised with a different language, is probably reading too much into it. (On the other hand, people on this list have a habit of using males to refer to men and women to refer to women. Flip side of the same coin, perhaps?). ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 21:27, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: ... (On the other hand, people on this list have a habit of using males to refer to men and women to refer to women. Flip side of the same coin, perhaps?). Interesting point, Nathan, that I hadn't noticed. But I have noticed the opposite on Wikipedia -- that women are often referred to as females, rather than women. It reads to my eyes as though a man is regarded as the default human position, and a female is another version. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
