Re: Incubator site status wrt a move to Anakia?

[David Crossley]

It is time to make a plan for the move to Anakia.
We cannot afford for it to drag on any longer.

---
1) Review the generated source documents in site/xdocs2

Did the transformation perform okay?

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/site/README.txt

---
2) Refine the stylesheet

site/xdocs2/stylesheets/site.vsl

Seen only one problem so far. It needs to handle
more than two levels of subsection.

This can be fixed later.

---
3) Add any missing links to side-panel

For example, the new documents for the old "Learn" tab
are in site/xdocs2/learn but are not yet linked into
the site/xdocs2/stylesheets/project.xml

This can be fixed later.

---
4) Fix some things in site-author

At the moment these are not being processed by forrest
because they are not linked into the site.

jcms.html exists only in site-publish/projects
i.e. no matching source in site-author/projects

mv projects/sandesha.cwiki ip-clearance + link to table.
mv projects/wss4j.cwiki ip-clearance + link to table.

None of the harmony-* docs are linked into the
ip-clearance table.

These links must exist or the docs will not be converted.
Help please.

---
5) Generate the final new xdocs 

---
6) Set up the svn space

incubator/public/trunk = top-level

Install Anakia at this top-level, i.e. move the
relevant contents of the new "site" directory up to
this top level, i.e. its build.xml and lib directory.

So the layout will be:

README.txt
STATUS
build.xml ... relace old not-used file with site/build.xml
lib ... the Anakia libraries
site-author ... replaced with the new source docs
site-publish ... the new Anakia-generated docs

---
7) Replace the existing content

In site-author

Retain the svn history. Do 'svn move' each file
to have a .xml filename extension and then replace
the content with that of the new sources from the
site/xdocs2 directory.

---
8) Generate the new html docs

---
9) Clean up the site-publish diectory

e.g. remove all the *.pdf
e.g. remove the corner images and CSS, etc.

---
10) Fix the website

This should not need to change. It will still be
an 'svn update' of the "site-publish" directory
as is done now.

It is important to keep it that way, because i supsect
that there is some extra content in there that is
not generated by the docs system.

---
11) Further tidy of site-author

Deal with some content that is not supposed to be there,
e.g. sub-directories: activemq, agila, servicemix,
geronimo, harmony, tapestry

See various past requests to general@ list.

---
12) Explain how to use the Anakia-based system

Replace the content at i.a.o/guides/website.html

---

If there are no concerns about that, then i will
go ahead early next week, i.e. 30/31 January.

I would like assistance with steps 1, 2, and 4.
Someone can attend to 3 and 11 later.

-David

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[OT] Kabuki Proposal -- Eclipse Plugins

[J Aaron Farr]

Since I don't really know my way around the Eclipse community very
well, I thought I might ask the question here.

I was really interested in the Eclipse portion of the original Kabuki
proposal but that's now been kicked over to the Eclipse foundation. 
So, does anyone know where I can join in on the discussion on that
proposal and perhaps get involved?

Thanks.

--
  jaaron

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[VOTE] OFBiz Proposal

[J Aaron Farr]

http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OFBizProposal

= OFBiz Proposal =

This proposal outlines the creation of a new, top-level Open for
Business (OFBiz) project within the Apache Software Foundation.

== Rationale ==

The Open For Business Project is an open source enterprise automation
software project.
By open source enterprise automation we mean: Open Source ERP, Open Source CRM,
Open Source E-Business / E-Commerce, Open Source SCM, Open Source MRP, Open
Source CMMS/EAM, and so on. It is one of the few apps of this type to be under a
"BSD-style" license, and developed by a community, rather than one corporation.
The maintainers of OFBiz are interested in joining the Apache Software
Foundation for
several reasons:

 * The legal umbrella. There are no outstanding legal issues with
OFBiz, but the protection that Apache affords is valuable to the
developers' peace of mind as their   project grows. It is a benefit
for both contributors and end-users to have a trusted   entity
involved with this aspect of the software.

 * Resolve current potential licensing issues with copyright license
assignment and patent license grants that are addressed in the Apache
2.0 license, but not in the MIT license. We had considered making this
change independently earlier this year.

 * Increase public awareness of OFBiz and of the application of Apache
licensing to   business aplication level software. Lately the news is
full of companies that are using  a dual-license (GPL and commercial)
model for enterprise software and OFBiz   working with Apache opens an
opportunity to strengthen what we feel is a much   higher value way of
doing things for both contributors and users.

 * Help the project attract contributors and service providers to
attract clients who would   feel more comfortable with the licensing
coming through a well known and  established organization like Apache.

== Criteria ==

=== Community ===

OFBiz has striven to foster a diverse community that is open to
everyone. It is released
under a non-reciprocal license to encourage the maximum possible adoption by all
potential users and developers. The OFBiz community encourages suggestions and
contributions from any potential user, and more developers have joined
as contributors
since the project's inception in 2001.

=== Meritocracy ===

OFBiz was originally created by David E. Jones and Andy Zeneski in May 2001. The
project now has committers and users from around the world. The newer
committers of
the project joined in subsequent years by initially submitting
patches, then having
commit privileges for some of the applications, and then privileges
over a larger range of
applications. The project members understand the importance of letting motivated
individuals contribute to the project after they have proven themselves.

== Scope of Subprojects ==

OFBiz is distributed as one large subversion tree, but contains two
distinct parts: a
framework, and a number of applications built with that framework. At
some point in
the future, it is conceivable that these become two subprojects, or more, were
applications deemed suitable to be developed independently.
Additionally, the OFBiz
subversion repository contains a "specialized" directory with vertical
applications
specific to particular businesses. Where these are grown and
contributed to, they could
also potentially take on a "life of their own", or split off into
separate projects that do not
ship with the core.

== Features ==

OFBiz is both a set of flexible, extensible applications such as
"e-commerce", "order
management", "catalog management", "work effort" and so on, designed
by engineers
with years of experience in the problem domain, as well as a framework
that makes it
possible to create new applications that exist with others.

== Initial Source ==

OFBiz was developed by David E. Jones and Andy Zeneski.

== Resources to be Created ==

User, Dev, and Announce mailing lists.
Copy current subversion code, and create a commits mailing list.
Copy JIRA issues into Apache system.
Create Wiki?

== Avoiding the Warning Signs ==

=== Orphaned products: ===

The OFBiz code is currently used and maintained by the authors and
others, who depend
on it for their livelihood. Continued development of OFBiz continues
on a daily basis,
and there are on average 50 new commits to the OFBiz SVN source tree
per week. In
fact, there is a weekly development summary on this web site:
http://ofbiz-new.blogspot.com .

=== Inexperience with Open Source: ===

The developers use a number of other open source projects within OFBiz, and are
interested in how best to make open source work with their project, both from a
community and business perspective.

=== Homogeneous Developers: ===

The developers are diverse, both geographically and in terms of their employers:

 * David E. Jones and Andy Zeneski are from the United States (Orem,
UT and New York City) and are the founders of Undersun Consulting LLC
(which is a separate and independent

RE: public perceptions

[Noel J. Bergman]

David N. Welton wrote:

> > I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> > when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> > incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> > Apache.

Actually, we've had quite a few comments from the public and incubator projects 
that dispute that view, especially in light of the disclaimers required to be 
conspicuously posted.

Let's not conflate the issues with the Apache != Apache Web Server discussion.

--- Noel


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Re: [vote] Request approval to declare Woden 1.0.0 M3 Candidate by EOD Jan. 24

[Roy T. Fielding]

On Jan 24, 2006, at 3:50 PM, Lawrence Mandel wrote:


Sanjiva,

Sorry about violating Apache netiquette. This was not intentional.  
I had
previously been asked to send this vote to the incubator and ws pmc  
lists

and was advised to send it to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list as well.

To be honest, I'm feeling pretty lost wrt the correct process to  
release a
milestone driver from an incubator project and would appreciate  
guidance

from the community. The information I have is to:

1. Hold a vote amongst the project's committers on the project's  
mailing

list.
2. Request approval from the incubator and, in Woden's case, WS  
pmcs by

sending an e-mail requesting a vote to [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


All release votes must be made on public lists.  Even if people say
yes in private, they still need to vote in public.  So, you should
hold a vote on woden-dev and then send a summary of that vote to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], saying pointedly that you need X more +1 votes
from incubator PMC members within 72 hours.


Assuming no negative votes, the milestone can be released.


Minimum three binding (official PMC) +1 votes and a majority of all
votes being positive.  Releases do not need consensus.

Roy

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Re: [vote] Request approval to declare Woden 1.0.0 M3 Candidate by EOD Jan. 24

[Lawrence Mandel]

Sanjiva,

Sorry about violating Apache netiquette. This was not intentional. I had 
previously been asked to send this vote to the incubator and ws pmc lists 
and was advised to send it to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list as well.

To be honest, I'm feeling pretty lost wrt the correct process to release a 
milestone driver from an incubator project and would appreciate guidance 
from the community. The information I have is to:

1. Hold a vote amongst the project's committers on the project's mailing 
list.
2. Request approval from the incubator and, in Woden's case, WS pmcs by 
sending an e-mail requesting a vote to [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
and 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Assuming no negative votes, the milestone can be released.

I think it would be useful to formally declare this process on the 
incubator site so all incubator projects have a defined process to follow.

BTW, as you said that my mail did make it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], have you seen any replies? I have yet to see one.

Thanks,

Lawrence Mandel




Sanjiva Weerawarana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
01/24/2006 06:40 PM
Please respond to
woden-dev


To
general@incubator.apache.org
cc
"woden-dev@ws.apache.org" 
Subject
Re: [vote] Request approval to declare Woden 1.0.0 M3 Candidate by EOD 
Jan. 24






On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 13:54 -0500, Lawrence Mandel wrote:
> *note: I'm resending this message as I don't believe it showed up on 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Lawrence please don't send to general@ and a private list (the PMC
lists). That's against Apache email netiquette ..

Unless I am mistaken your mail did make it to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sanjiva.



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Re: [vote] Request approval to declare Woden 1.0.0 M3 Candidate by EOD Jan. 24

[Sanjiva Weerawarana]

On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 13:54 -0500, Lawrence Mandel wrote:
> *note: I'm resending this message as I don't believe it showed up on 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Lawrence please don't send to general@ and a private list (the PMC
lists). That's against Apache email netiquette ..

Unless I am mistaken your mail did make it to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sanjiva.



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Re: public perceptions

[David Crossley]

David N. Welton wrote:
> [ changed subject to discuss topic more abstractly ]
> 
> > I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> > when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> > incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> > Apache.
> 
> I think that the further away from something you get, the more vague
> your perceptions are.  For instance, there are a lot of people who still
> think that Apache == The Web Server.

Well, i am not a marketing person, but i know
that you are onto something important there.

A while ago i started helping to tidy up 
the top-level apache.org documentation 
(i.e. / and /foundation/ and /dev/).

I became alarmed at how much documentation was
still talking in terms of "Apache, the webserver"
where really it should now mean "The ASF".
Obviously not updated for a long time. 

Some of this has been addressed by referring
to "Apache HTTP Server" instead. However there
are plenty of extant misleading statements.

-David

>  When seen from afar, I'd tend to
> agree that a move to "something.apache.org" is going to be noticed by
> most people who are not looking carefully as "project now associated
> with apache.org".
> 
> This is a theory of mine that seems to be born out by talking with
> people, but it's not really an exact science.  What say the marketing folks?
> 
> -- 
> David N. Welton
> - http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
> 
> Linux, Open Source Consulting
> - http://www.dedasys.com/

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Incubate TMCg2

[Mads Toftum]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 02:45:52PM -0600, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Although TMC is fairly bland (and therefore, fine ;-)  I rather like both
> of the proposed alternatives.  Kowa, unlike alot of other Native American
> names proposed on this list, is simply the name for a structure, so I don't
> find it offensive.
> 
As I've said it before, TMC doesn't do the trick for me - plain MC
would do better to remove the Tomcat reference and eventually avoid
Apache The ... 
Of the two alternatives, I think the second is the better choice.

vh

Mads Toftum
-- 
`Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Incubate TMCg2

[William A. Rowe, Jr.]

Stein, Neil S wrote:

Hi,


It'd be
nice to have an alternative."


Point taken  An alternate would be "Ohana" --->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohana


Although TMC is fairly bland (and therefore, fine ;-)  I rather like both
of the proposed alternatives.  Kowa, unlike alot of other Native American
names proposed on this list, is simply the name for a structure, so I don't
find it offensive.

That said, I'm neither Native American nor Native Hawaiian ;-)

Bill

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RE: [PROPOSAL] Incubate TMCg2

[Stein, Neil S]

Hi,
>>It'd be
>>nice to have an alternative."

Point taken  An alternate would be "Ohana" --->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohana


Neil Stein
Enterprise Web Infrastructure
phone -- 908-423-4297


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Incubate TMCg2

[Yoav Shapira]

Hola,

> and I would like to propose "Kowa"
> "An Apache dwelling consisting of a dome shaped frame of cottonwood or other
> poles, and thatched with grass. The house itself was termed, Kowa and the
> grass thatch, Pi".

Mmm... We've had some discussions [1, and numerous others] in the past
about using names from the Native American culture, and there are
mixed opinions regarding political correctness and so forth.  It'd be
nice to have an alternative.

[1] 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&w=2&r=1&s=native+american&q=b

--
Yoav Shapira
System Design and Management Fellow
MIT Sloan School of Management
Cambridge, MA, USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.yoavshapira.com

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RE: [PROPOSAL] Incubate TMCg2

[Stein, Neil S]

At Merck, the name TMC originally stood for "Tomcat Management Console"  As
the tool set evolved, the ability to manage Apache httpd was added.  The
full name simply was changed to "The Management Console".  The g2 is a Merck
item and should very well be dropped. We have been evaluating other
names, and I would like to propose "Kowa" 
"An Apache dwelling consisting of a dome shaped frame of cottonwood or other
poles, and thatched with grass. The house itself was termed, Kowa and the
grass thatch, Pi".



Neil Stein
Enterprise Web Infrastructure
phone -- 908-423-4297




-Original Message-
From: Mads Toftum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 3:01 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Incubate TMCg2


On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 11:30:01PM -0600, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> A final concern was raised, TMCg2 stands for (???).  I've read it as 'The
> Management Console generation 2'.  Now from an OSS standpoint, there's no
> first generation, so I'd suggest dropping the g2 designation.  But was I 
> badly
> mistaken?  Someone's suggested that the M is Merck, but I've seen no such 
> ref.
> 
I tend to agree that the name isn't very good. TMC is not a very good
choice either - Apache The ... wouldn't really work. It would be nice to
find something more appropriate before starting to create too many
mailing lists.

vh

Mads Toftum
-- 
`Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall


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Re: ajax proposal?

[Andrew Clark]

Raphaël Luta wrote:
> I completely understand that you're not a toolkit company
> however I can't understand why the AjaxTk is currently in
> such a sore open-source state:
> - the code dumps on the site are not functional out of the
>   box

To be precise, all of the toolkit (widgets, utils, etc)
are completely functional. It's the infrastructure for
the samples that need some work to make them work out 
of the box.

> - no source control access

We have read-only CVS access[1] already for the entire
project. The details should definitely be more visible,
though. I'll talk to someone about getting it more
prominent on the main site.

> I understand that you wouldn't want to setup your own public
> dev infrastructure but using sf.net, codehaus, tigris or
> whatever public infra wouldn't have been very onerous.
> 
> My concern here is if no resources have been dedicated
> so far to really build the AjaxTk into an OSS project why
> would that change once it is in incubation ?

Let me try to summarize what I think your point is and
you can tell me if I'm wrong. You would feel better
about the submission if it were already a fully formed
OSS project on an external site with full development
infrastructure and long-time active community. Is this
accurate? 

It seems to me that if that were the case, then there
would be little need to come to the Apache incubator
with all the extra work and headaches of the process.
There are certainly projects that seem to be natural
extensions to Apache and thus, as someone put it,
"come home". But most fully-formed projects would have
little need to come to Apache so I would be wary of
them wanting the Apache brand.

In this case, the Kabuki submission is an attempt to
help kickstart the AJAX movement at Apache. And we're
willing to work on that with other members of the
community. But being in the Apache incubator certainly
doesn't help us; it's actually a loss when you consider
the time and resources that are taken away from our
core business. And we're not doing it for the press 
'cause that's simply not allowed until after a project 
exits incubation which could be years down the road.

Anyway, we've probably had enough discussion and should
just vote this up or down. If you feel that strongly
about it, you can vote your -1 veto. Your other option
is to let it pass but lodge your disapproval with a -0.


[1] http://www.zimbra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=793

-- 
Andy Clark * Zimbra * [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[vote] Request approval to declare Woden 1.0.0 M3 Candidate by EOD Jan. 24

[Lawrence Mandel]

*note: I'm resending this message as I don't believe it showed up on 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Lawrence Mandel



Following the release process for projects in incubation, I'd like to 
request approval for Woden to declare milestone 3. A vote was held on the 
woden-dev list where M3 received 5 +1 votes and no negative votes. The 
votes collected are as follows:

John Kaputin +1
Lawrence Mandel +1 
Dims +1 
Jeremy Hughes +1
Arthur Ryman +1 


As required of releases from projects in incubation, the distributable 
archives contain incubating in their names. The M3 archives can be found 
at http://cvs.apache.org/dist/ws/woden/milestones/1.0.0M3-incubating/.

My original post summarizing Woden 1.0.0 M3 is below. 

Please vote by 5pm EST, Tuesday, Jan. 24, 2006.

Thanks,

Lawrence Mandel 



- Forwarded by Lawrence Mandel/Toronto/IBM on 01/22/2006 03:22 PM 
- 
Lawrence Mandel/Toronto/[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
01/18/2006 04:55 PM 

Please respond to
woden-dev


To
woden-dev@ws.apache.org 
cc
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject
Woden 1.0.0 M3 Candidate - please vote by EOD Thursday, Jan. 19









Woden committers, I'd like to request your vote on the status of M3. I've 
placed a Woden 1.0.0 
M3 Candidate build at 

http://cvs.apache.org/dist/ws/woden/milestones/1.0.0M3-incubating/

The Woden M3 candidate includes the major work items from the M3 plan. 
Specifically, the following items are complete in the M3 Candidate:

Parsing of WSDL 2.0 import and include (DOM) 
WSDL 2.0 Service parsing (DOM) 
Implement validation logic for Binding 
Unit tests for validation logic for Binding 
Integrate W3C WSDL 2.0 Binding tests into Woden test suite 

The following items are incomplete in the M2 plan:

Unit tests for import and include parsing (DOM) 
WSDL 2.0 HTTP Binding extension (DOM) 
Unit tests for HTTP Binding extension (DOM) 
Unit tests for Service parsing (DOM) 
Investigate WSDL 2.0 parsing with StAX 
Update technical documentation about Woden design and implementation on 
Wiki 
Create initial user documentation 

In an effort to make Woden more immediately usable, we deferred HTTP 
Binding extension work to M4 in favour of adding support for WSDL import 
and include elements. StAX will continue to be an investigation item until 
the DOM implementation is close to complete or we get more development 
help. John and I are working on user documentation and should have it 
ready for the Woden site around the proposed M3 release on Friday. 
Automated tests for the parser continue to require attention but, as John 
has conducted manual testing and the W3C test suite has been integrated 
into the Woden automated test suite, we are in good shape for M3.

Both John and I think Woden is in good shape to declare M3 as solid 
progress has been made on the parser and the validator. At this point we'd 
like to ask the Woden committers to vote on the status of M3. John and I 
both vote +1 (so +2). Please vote ASAP. We will collect votes until EOD 
(5pm EST) Thursday, Jan. 19. If there are no negative votes I will then 
request WS and Incubator PMC approval to release M3 by EOD Friday, Jan. 
20. Once the PMCs approve, M3 will be declared and a link will be placed 
on the Woden site. (Feel free to reply to this note with any concerns over 
this process.) 

Thanks, 

Lawrence Mandel

Re: [VOTE] KabukiProposal

[Andrew Clark]

+1, of course. :)

-- 
Andy Clark * Zimbra * [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: ajax proposal?

[Sam Ruby]

Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:


What's the status of the vote? I'm confused by calls to repeal the vote
and modifications to the vote and all that. I thought we were spsed to
be a simple bunch of, um, people but it sure doesn't look like it! ;-)


Overview of what occurred:

1) on 12/20, Adam Peller posted a proposal for comments (not a vote!). 
The most significant comments related to the inclusion of Eclipse 
components, and the perception of this being an umbrella.


2) on 1/15, I posted a signficantly reduced proposal for a vote. 
Missing from that proposal is any Eclipse componentry.  Justin asked for 
a clarification regarding server components, and there were numereous 
requests for a new name.  Some questions were raised as to whether a 
Zimbra employee could make an adequate mentor.  On 1/19, Leo and Geir 
asked for a new vote.


3) on 1/23, I posted a new vote on a proposal now named Kabuki.  Here 
are links to the current proposal, to the set of changes, and to the 
start of the current vote thread:


http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/KabukiProposal
http://tinyurl.com/e3egs
http://tinyurl.com/7emr5


Am I spsed to vote my choice at this time or is there no vote going on?


Yes there is a vote going on.  Please do vote.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: [VOTE] KabukiProposal

[Davanum Srinivas]

+1

On 1/24/06, Leo Simons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 08:30:57AM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/KabukiProposal
> >
> > Contents of proposal reproduced below:
> 
>
> +1 from me.
>
> - Leo
>
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>


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Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/

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Re: ajax proposal?

[Raphaël Luta]

Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Hi Raphael,
> 
> 
>>I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
>>when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
>>incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
>>Apache.
> 
> 
> If that's indeed the problem then we need to work on clearing up that
> misconception. That concern applies to all projects in the Incubator,
> not just this candidate.
> 

It indeed applies to all incubating projects and IMO more acutely
for corporate code grants projects (as opposed to established OSS
projects that just move home like SpamAssassin did).
In code grant projects, little is known before incubation really
starts so trust is an important factor in these cases.

> 
>>As long as this is true, accepting a project in the incubator even if
>>it stays there indefinitely *does* matter to me.
>>In the end, I don't think it's a personal prejudice but more a lack of
>>trust in the motivations of the proposal.
> 
> That's a very strong statement .. let's please keep this conversation
> totally civil and respectful. This proposal is, after all, being
> strongly supported by Sam, who's not just a 2-bit member like me but
> rather a board member that you and I and other members elected to look
> after the best interests of the foundation. I've known Sam for many
> years and he's stubborn as a deaf mule and the last person who will give
> into pressure from his employer to do something that will harm the ASF.
> Sam has consistently been jumping into new stuff and really having
> dramatic impact quickly and intensely. I suspect he will do the same
> with this and I don't expect the other people around him will enjoy
> every minute of it. (I know I haven't for the stuff I've been around
> with him for ;-))
> 

I didn't mean to be disrepectful to anyone and especially Sam. Please
accept me apologies if my words were considered rude. I believe Sam cares
deeply about the ASF and does what he thinks is right. We disagree about
what is right in this particular case (and then Roy, Noel and many others
agree with him so I'm definitely in a minority here).

That being said, I think I've pretty much listed all my reservations now.
Sam has made a good job of amending the proposal to include as many
concerns as possible short of postponing or dropping the proposal.
I don't think there's much left to discuss here.

-- 
Raphaël Luta - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/

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Re: Proposal for OFBiz to Join the ASF

[J Aaron Farr]

On 1/22/06, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is also good to try to ensure that discussion has settled down, and that
> there is a consensus before calling for the vote.  I generally believe that
> a good ASF vote isn't called to make a decision; it is called to ratify one.

Exactly.  A very important principle.

So, regarding this proposal, does anyone else have any other concerns?
 Any other questions from or for the OFBiz team?  Otherwise, I can
prepare the vote later today.

--
  jaaron

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Re: ajax proposal?

[Sanjiva Weerawarana]

Hi Raphael,

> I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> Apache.

If that's indeed the problem then we need to work on clearing up that
misconception. That concern applies to all projects in the Incubator,
not just this candidate.

I don't see it as reasonable to reject this proposal on that basis.

> As long as this is true, accepting a project in the incubator even if
> it stays there indefinitely *does* matter to me.
> In the end, I don't think it's a personal prejudice but more a lack of
> trust in the motivations of the proposal.

That's a very strong statement .. let's please keep this conversation
totally civil and respectful. This proposal is, after all, being
strongly supported by Sam, who's not just a 2-bit member like me but
rather a board member that you and I and other members elected to look
after the best interests of the foundation. I've known Sam for many
years and he's stubborn as a deaf mule and the last person who will give
into pressure from his employer to do something that will harm the ASF.
Sam has consistently been jumping into new stuff and really having
dramatic impact quickly and intensely. I suspect he will do the same
with this and I don't expect the other people around him will enjoy
every minute of it. (I know I haven't for the stuff I've been around
with him for ;-))

> I'm confused too by the voting process and repeated proposals even before
> the discussion has died down.

I think the new vote was called after the discussion settled (or we
jumped to another horse to beat on) but clearly things are in a confused
state now.

Sanjiva.


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Re: Incubator site status wrt a move to Anakia?

[David Crossley]

David Crossley wrote:
> 
> I will 'svn ci' my generated xdocs into site/xdocs2
> 
> It would be good if some other people can look
> over the new source docs and the Anakia side of things.
> The more that we can get the forrest export to do
> the better.
> 
> However we need to trade that off with getting
> this job done quickly.

To ease the way, there is now a README.txt to
explain how to build the new docs with Anakia.
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/site/README.txt

Come on all, don't wait for Geir and me.
Did the "projects" status reports and "ip-clearance"
stuff get converted properly?

-David

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Re: [VOTE] KabukiProposal

[Steven Noels]

On 23 Jan 2006, at 14:30, Sam Ruby wrote:


== 1. Scope of the subprojects ==

The initial scope of the project will include client-side widgets and 
other utilities from the Zimbra AjaxTK, as described in 0.1.


OK.

In addition, the Kabuki project will also include server-side 
infrastructure to facilitate the AJAX programming model.


In the current download 
(http://www.zimbra.com/community/ajaxtk_download.html), all samples are 
designed to be shown only in the context of a JSP-enabled servlet 
container, even though the samples don't require one per se.


Such server-side components may include resource aggregation and 
delivery, user authorization, application event notification, etc. 
Since XML is used for communication and HTTP is used as the transport, 
the client-side toolkit is not tied to any particular programming 
language.


Why then the reliance on JSP for the delivery of the samples? IMHO, 
that somehow rises (if only slightly) the barrier for people exploring 
the actual donation. And from the description of the scope, I 
understand the idea is to make sure the Ajax client library and widgets 
are independent from any server-side runtime execution context.



--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought  Open Source Java & XML
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Re: ajax proposal?

[Raphaël Luta]

Andrew Clark wrote:
> Raphaël Luta wrote: 
> 
>>Seeing Zimbra current OSS efforts with this toolkit 
>>(even with an ASF member in their team), I have a hard 
>>time believing this proposal is anything but a branding 
>>exercise to help this toolkit stand out in the crowd of 
>>Ajax toolkits. 
> 

Thanks for your answer Andy. It sure helps flesh out your
motivations.

> The Zimbra product owes much of its success to open- 
> source products, especially from Apache. The Kabuki 
> submission for incubation is an attempt to give back 
> to the community that's given us so much coupled with 
> the fact that we believe browser-based client coding 
> with Ajax is a natural fit with the web-centric theme 
> of Apache projects. 
> 

Here we completely agree that Ajax certainly has a place
in the ASF.

> Our core business is collaboration and competing against 
> Exchange server; we aren't a tools or toolkit company. As 
> such, we are not associating the Zimbra brand with the 
> toolkit and aren't planning on making money from this
> effort. I hope that goes a little way towards easing
> some people's concerns regarding the submission.
>

I completely understand that you're not a toolkit company
however I can't understand why the AjaxTk is currently in
such a sore open-source state:
- the code dumps on the site are not functional out of the
  box
- no source control access
- the sourceforge site is half configured and no links
  have been created to this tk (freshmeat, etc...)

I understand that you wouldn't want to setup your own public
dev infrastructure but using sf.net, codehaus, tigris or
whatever public infra wouldn't have been very onerous.

My concern here is if no resources have been dedicated
so far to really build the AjaxTk into an OSS project why
would that change once it is in incubation ?

It could be done now in sf or codehaus. That would trigger
all the zimbra internal changes that will have to happen
to make such a task work (like how to manage the internal
and external source repositories, commit access, bug
reporting, public design decisions, etc...). You will pick
an initial community then but most importantly work out
the internal issues that are bound to happen.

Proposing an to enter incubation from that situation would
be a no-brainer for me.

> One last note... the Zimbra marketing guy is well aware 
> that PR for incubated projects will not be allowed and 
> he's completely cool with that. Zimbra wants to do "the 
> right thing" and are willing to commit resources to try 
> to make that happen. However, if the Apache community is 
> still uneasy about the submission and denies its entry 
> to incubation, so be it. But I would love to see Apache 
> take a role in crafting the future of AJAX programming 
> (with the added personal benefit of being paid to work 
> on Apache technology again :). 
> 

I think it's hard to speak for the "Apache community" ;)
In the end, we're all individuals and certainly don't agree
on everything.
I'm not completely comfortable with the current proposal
mostly because I am concerned by recent PR issues and I
got concerned by the amount of boilerplate text in
the different proposals (reading the current line on
meritocracy still makes me cringe).

-- 
Raphaël Luta - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/

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Re: ajax proposal?

[Ted Leung]

On Jan 23, 2006, at 4:38 AM, Raphaël Luta wrote:

XMLBeans had only 1 member/committer from the beginning but not  
affiliated

with the sponsor.


Steven Noels and I were the ASF members involved with XMLBeans and  
neither of us was employed by BEA.  The initial list of committers  
included 3 other people not employed by BEA, however one was unable  
to participate due to his employer's issues with the CLAs.  Original  
proposal here: 


Ted
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public perceptions

[David N. Welton]

[ changed subject to discuss topic more abstractly ]

> I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> Apache.

I think that the further away from something you get, the more vague
your perceptions are.  For instance, there are a lot of people who still
think that Apache == The Web Server.  When seen from afar, I'd tend to
agree that a move to "something.apache.org" is going to be noticed by
most people who are not looking carefully as "project now associated
with apache.org".

This is a theory of mine that seems to be born out by talking with
people, but it's not really an exact science.  What say the marketing folks?

-- 
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/

Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/

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Re: ajax proposal?

[Raphaël Luta]

Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 13:38 +0100, Raphaël Luta wrote:
> 
>>Seeing Zimbra current OSS efforts with this toolkit (even with an ASF member
>>in their team), I have a hard time believing this proposal is anything but a
>>branding exercise to help this toolkit stand out in the crowd of Ajax 
>>toolkits.
>>
>>My "admission bar" for such proposals is set much higher than usual.
> 
> With all due respect Raphael, I find this unreasonable. You can't make
> random "admission bars" for projects based on personal prejudices. What
> I suggest is that you join the project as a mentor and make sure push
> them hard to make sure they come out clean as whistle or hold them in
> incubation until its killed. That way you convince yourself that the
> project is good *from the ASF points of view* (community, meritocracy
> etc.) but not from things like visibility point of view which by no
> means are a requirement.
> 

I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
Apache.
As long as this is true, accepting a project in the incubator even if
it stays there indefinitely *does* matter to me.
In the end, I don't think it's a personal prejudice but more a lack of
trust in the motivations of the proposal.

> What's the status of the vote? I'm confused by calls to repeal the vote
> and modifications to the vote and all that. I thought we were spsed to
> be a simple bunch of, um, people but it sure doesn't look like it! ;-)
> 

I'm confused too by the voting process and repeated proposals even before
the discussion has died down.

> Am I spsed to vote my choice at this time or is there no vote going on?
> So confused. Must be the freezing weather in Sri Lanka these days. Its
> been like 65F in Colombo at nite. Brr.
> 

27F here in Paris, It sure wakes you up in the morning :)

-- 
Raphaël Luta - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/

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Re: [VOTE] KabukiProposal

[Leo Simons]

On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 08:30:57AM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/KabukiProposal
> 
> Contents of proposal reproduced below:


+1 from me.

- Leo

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Re: Removing Axion Resources

[Leo Simons]

Heh.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 12:59:04PM -0800, Brian McCallister wrote:
> The DB PMC would like to ask that the Axion incubation resources be  
> removed and that Axion no longer be considered in incubation.

Right. So, ehm. Like Noel already said a few times. Update the status
page and talk to infra.

http://incubator.apache.org/projects/ lists Morgan Delegrange as the
mentor. Either he or the DB PMC should read

  http://incubator.apache.org/guides/website.html

and then update the source file from which

  http://incubator.apache.org/projects/axion.html

is generated and then get in touch with infrastructure@ according to
whatever method is specified at

  http://www.apache.org/dev/

and make sure to take care of any "incubation resources" if they exist.

Usually, sending a two-line e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] doesn't really
result in all of that happening. Overworked volunteers, you know :-)

cheers!

LSD


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