Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
Hi folks, could you stop believing in a conspiracy taking place at the Apache Isis incubator project where a bunch of Isis member plus a few obscure mentors are trying to subvert the Apache Software Foundation by having a Skype session?! Get real - some of the concerns are justified and well understood but this is it as far as I'm concerned. But if Dan Haywood organizes a Skype meeting to introduce the committers and explains the Isis architectures than this is a good thing and I'm still supporting it. And as mentioned before - feel free to participate at Apache Isis to have your own opinion instead of showing signs of knee-jerk repulsion. Cheers, Siegfried Goeschl Apache Isis Mentor On 11/24/10 9:06 PM, Upayavira wrote: There's something we need to watch out for here about how the incubator works. The incubator is a place for podling members to learn, and learning is something *they* do. Our part is to provide encouragement and guidance as appropriate, and to allow podlings to make mistakes. That is an important part of learning. I sometimes feel we can be a bit to heavy handed on this list. Sure, give folks the benefit of our experience. But there's nothing like someone shouting at you for feeling excluded from a decision to make you realise that that conference call was not a good idea. In the end, the point of judgement is at the point of attempting graduation. Before that, we need to give podlings the space to learn, and that involves giving them the space to push the bounds of our community taboos (realtime comms, svn vs git, etc, etc). That's how folks really learn stuff, not just by being told something again and again. Upayavira On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:13 -0500, Noel J. Bergmann...@devtech.com wrote: The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions. Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 22:34, Siegfried Goeschl siegfried.goes...@it20one.at wrote: Hi folks, could you stop believing in a conspiracy taking place at the Apache Isis incubator project where a bunch of Isis member plus a few obscure mentors are trying to subvert the Apache Software Foundation by having a Skype session?! I don't think anyone believes in such a conspiracy. Bernd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:14 AM, Jeremy Carroll jer...@topquadrant.com wrote: On 11/24/2010 3:58 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote: But this is like if you are working in an office in front of a collegue : most of the time, you don't chit-chat, you work. And when it comes to make a decision impacting the whole project, then the discussion is moved to the ML. In the Jena team, several committers work in one office, I am one of the ones who doesn't - moreover, I am an 8hr time shift away. The real-time comms of the office chit-chat is simply a fact of life. I guess clarity about what the risks are and how we should address them would be useful... I think it just comes down to everything must happen on the dev list and make sure your project is open new people and outsiders. As long as anything that has a significant impact on the project is discussed/decided on the dev list, and people who cannot attend the out-of-list discussions do not feel left out, I think you'll be fine. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
+1 @ Bertrand On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:14 AM, Jeremy Carroll jer...@topquadrant.com wrote: On 11/24/2010 3:58 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote: But this is like if you are working in an office in front of a collegue : most of the time, you don't chit-chat, you work. And when it comes to make a decision impacting the whole project, then the discussion is moved to the ML. In the Jena team, several committers work in one office, I am one of the ones who doesn't - moreover, I am an 8hr time shift away. The real-time comms of the office chit-chat is simply a fact of life. I guess clarity about what the risks are and how we should address them would be useful... I think it just comes down to everything must happen on the dev list and make sure your project is open new people and outsiders. As long as anything that has a significant impact on the project is discussed/decided on the dev list, and people who cannot attend the out-of-list discussions do not feel left out, I think you'll be fine. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide) http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving - Albert Einstein Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less than your best. - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship Stay hungry, stay foolish. - Steve Jobs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:14 AM, Jeremy Carrolljer...@topquadrant.com wrote: On 11/24/2010 3:58 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote: But this is like if you are working in an office in front of a collegue : most of the time, you don't chit-chat, you work. And when it comes to make a decision impacting the whole project, then the discussion is moved to the ML. In the Jena team, several committers work in one office, I am one of the ones who doesn't - moreover, I am an 8hr time shift away. The real-time comms of the office chit-chat is simply a fact of life. I guess clarity about what the risks are and how we should address them would be useful... I think it just comes down to everything must happen on the dev list and make sure your project is open new people and outsiders. As long as anything that has a significant impact on the project is discussed/decided on the dev list, and people who cannot attend the out-of-list discussions do not feel left out, I think you'll be fine. -Bertrand All project decisions I can recall for Jena have been whole-group. The Jena committers are heavy email users and while once-upon-a-long-time ago we did sometimes have F2F meetings (when we were all in the same timezone, indeed same UK building) email was and is the major means of communication. As we are now a distributed team, email has been the means of communication. The one phone meeting we've had was arranged (by email) precisely to include everyone possible especially Jeremy. In the past, I can remember stepping away from my desk for a few minutes for coffee to come back to 10's of messages (bounced of a US server of course) of Jena discussions between people a few feet apart. Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 2:13 AM, Noel J. Bergman n...@devtech.com wrote: Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. Unless it is the Apache Board, which makes decisions in real-time and communicates back the result. Different standards for different folks. ;-) Cheers -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
Andy Seaborne wrote on Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:10:14 +: In the past, I can remember stepping away from my desk for a few minutes for coffee to come back to 10's of messages (bounced of a US server of course) of Jena discussions between people a few feet apart. As long as dozens of messages is not confused with community consensus (the latter includes the opinions of folks in other timezones), +1. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions. Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Noel J. Bergman n...@devtech.com wrote: The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? Noel, I very possibly lost one or more messages in the torrent. I seem to have missed that one. Apologies, benson. Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions. Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
There's something we need to watch out for here about how the incubator works. The incubator is a place for podling members to learn, and learning is something *they* do. Our part is to provide encouragement and guidance as appropriate, and to allow podlings to make mistakes. That is an important part of learning. I sometimes feel we can be a bit to heavy handed on this list. Sure, give folks the benefit of our experience. But there's nothing like someone shouting at you for feeling excluded from a decision to make you realise that that conference call was not a good idea. In the end, the point of judgement is at the point of attempting graduation. Before that, we need to give podlings the space to learn, and that involves giving them the space to push the bounds of our community taboos (realtime comms, svn vs git, etc, etc). That's how folks really learn stuff, not just by being told something again and again. Upayavira On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:13 -0500, Noel J. Bergman n...@devtech.com wrote: The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions. Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
Hi folks, could you stop believing in a conspiracy taking place at the Apache Isis incubator project where a bunch of Isis member plus a few obscure mentors are trying to subvert the Apache Software Foundation by having a Skype session?! Get real - some of the concerns are justified and well understood but this is it as far as I'm concerned. But if Dan Haywood organizes a Skype meeting to introduce the committers and explains the Isis architectures than this is a good thing and I'm still supporting it. And as mentioned before - feel free to participate at Apache Isis to have your own opinion instead of showing signs of knee-jerk repulsion. Cheers, Siegfried Goeschl Apache Isis Mentor On 11/24/10 9:06 PM, Upayavira wrote: There's something we need to watch out for here about how the incubator works. The incubator is a place for podling members to learn, and learning is something *they* do. Our part is to provide encouragement and guidance as appropriate, and to allow podlings to make mistakes. That is an important part of learning. I sometimes feel we can be a bit to heavy handed on this list. Sure, give folks the benefit of our experience. But there's nothing like someone shouting at you for feeling excluded from a decision to make you realise that that conference call was not a good idea. In the end, the point of judgement is at the point of attempting graduation. Before that, we need to give podlings the space to learn, and that involves giving them the space to push the bounds of our community taboos (realtime comms, svn vs git, etc, etc). That's how folks really learn stuff, not just by being told something again and again. Upayavira On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:13 -0500, Noel J. Bergmann...@devtech.com wrote: The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions. Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On 11/24/10 7:13 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions. Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. Talking about ApacheDS, yes, we *do* use IRC actively. This is for us the main stream when we are working on some part of the server, plus a way to have a semi-F2F discussion about technical points. But this is like if you are working in an office in front of a collegue : most of the time, you don't chit-chat, you work. And when it comes to make a decision impacting the whole project, then the discussion is moved to the ML. So why are we using IRC for ? Mainly for technical discussions. As an example, here is a short snippet : ... elecharny: kayyagari: I'm wondering if we coudn't describe the tests using JSON [6:38pm] kayyagari: hmm, am thinking of automatic pdu generation in tests for sequences that use components [6:38pm] kayyagari: so only the lowest components need to be tested with hand crafted PDUs [6:40pm] kayyagari: and cause lowest components definitely be small in size [6:40pm] kayyagari: (atleast that is the case so far) [6:45pm] elecharny: what is important is to test that PDU don't crash when there are some missing optional elements [6:45pm] elecharny: the lower components have been quite well tested [6:46pm] elecharny: the main problem with test generation is to write the PUD by hand, [6:46pm] elecharny: and to compute the lengths [6:46pm] elecharny: one thing we can do is to use the DERxxx classes we have in the project [6:47pm] elecharny: you can create a PDU using them, with no issues like creating the lengths [6:47pm] kayyagari: ahah [6:47pm] kayyagari: am trying to computelength() and then encode them to a temporary buffer and later push it to the main buf [6:47pm] elecharny: you can do that [6:47pm] elecharny: otherwise, you can also do : [6:48pm] elecharny: seq = new DERSequence(); [6:49pm] elecharny: seq.add( DerInteger.valueOf( 5 ) ); [6:49pm] elecharny: etc... [6:49pm] kayyagari: aha, will try it, this is helpful [6:49pm] elecharny: and at the end do a seq.encode( outputStream ); [6:49pm] elecharny: you'll get the PDU [6:49pm] kayyagari: cool [6:50pm] kayyagari: this is the class present in shared-ldap? [6:50pm] elecharny: but you won't be able to test cornercase like Integer with no values [6:50pm] elecharny: yes [6:50pm] kayyagari: ok [6:50pm] elecharny: in asn1.der [6:50pm] kayyagari: yeah [6:51pm] elecharny: ok, I have to run, some friends have flown from Boston to paris Nothing fancy, just raw technical convos. But very useful when you have a huge code base and you want to share some informations IRT. We tried to organize Skype sessions 4 years ago, but we never succeeded to get them lasting more than 2 or 3 weeks. The reasons are simple : - with people in South Korea, France and Florida, the TZ pb is almost impossible to solve - as the schedule was very tight, being 15 minutes late just blows the session - surprisingly, no more than 15% of the world population is speaking a fluent english. That does not help when on skype - You always have to find someone to report what has been said, and trust me, a lot of input is lost in the process We decided that it was a waste of time. I still think it's a waste of time, and also a perfect way to split the community in 2 groups : - those who participate - those who are left behind and get frustrated. IRC solve some of those issues : it's easier to understand what a poor english speaker like me is typing, it's easier to get a report and move it back to the ML, and also it's easier to get the discussion on track, without the one who speak louder talking most of the time. -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On 11/24/2010 3:58 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote: But this is like if you are working in an office in front of a collegue : most of the time, you don't chit-chat, you work. And when it comes to make a decision impacting the whole project, then the discussion is moved to the ML. In the Jena team, several committers work in one office, I am one of the ones who doesn't - moreover, I am an 8hr time shift away. The real-time comms of the office chit-chat is simply a fact of life. I guess clarity about what the risks are and how we should address them would be useful. I don't think IRC or skype is much of a deal in comparison [that's a technical comment about bandwidth, not a complaint about my colleagues' behavior] Jeremy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
