Re: Back to Avalon...

[Peter Donald]

hi,

At 02:06  2/2/01 -0800, Jon Stevens wrote:
>Then you should be suggesting another top level project be created instead
>of creating a pseudo project that is half within Avalon and half within the
>top level namespace.
>
>Just like there is for Jetspeed.

No one else commented on this from PMC so I guess this is general consensus?

ie. 1 Project == 1 Product.

When any project grows such that there is multiple products they should be
split off into multiple projects. Personally I don't see the advantage of
splitting a community like that - especially when the split off project may
not have enough momentum to survive. 

While I don't really like the idea of splitting Avalon at the moment if
it's the only option to move forward then so be it ;) To propose the split
do I just go back to Avalon and try to get consensus via vote and then
reapproach here with a proposal? If so does the proposal have to be formal
or can it be informal?

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Struts? (was: Re: What is Avalon?)

[Pier Fumagalli]

Peter Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Conclusion ?? (it should be obvious).

Conclusion: They pay my salary, and make me happy... If you want a select()
call, it's as easy as 1...2...3... to write it using JNI...

Pier :)


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

Ted Husted wrote:
> 
> On 2/6/2001 at 11:03 PM Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >I have no conclusion other than a misc utility project would be a good
> >thing to have, especially if we can get the major players to work out
> >their differences and actually use the thing.  I volunteer to help in
> >any way needed.
> 
> The only thing I would suggest is that if someone were to propose this
> as a subproject, that it be setup as a serious endeavor, with it's own
> set of active committers, nightly builds, milestones, release plans,
> beta-tests -- the whole nine yards. If Jakarta is going to have a tools
> library, it should be the best tools library money can't buy ;0)

That's exactly what I am trying to say. I know I can't propose.

Not a library, or cache of code.  A 'product'.  Where there is
dedication to the customers of that product, certainly the internal
Jakarta projects, but also general users who just need a great toolkit.

Call it 'Jakarta Server Platform Tools' or something, and try to draft
as committers interested people from the major internal consumers
(Turbine, Struts, Jetspeed, Velocity)  It won't work if it produces Yet
Another Connection Pool to add to the charming array of implementations
offered by Jakarta.

geir


-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Velocity : it's not just a good idea. It should be the law.
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 11:03 PM Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>I have no conclusion other than a misc utility project would be a good
>thing to have, especially if we can get the major players to work out
>their differences and actually use the thing.  I volunteer to help in
>any way needed.

The only thing I would suggest is that if someone were to propose this
as a subproject, that it be setup as a serious endeavor, with it's own
set of active committers, nightly builds, milestones, release plans,
beta-tests -- the whole nine yards. If Jakarta is going to have a tools
library, it should be the best tools library money can't buy ;0)


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 5:24 PM Jon Stevens wrote:
>As a result, I'm now creating an Essay titled "You make the decision."
that
>will explain in detail the differences on implementing a system based
on top
>of Struts+JSP and Turbine+Velocity. 

An honest evaluation could be very helpful to the community. I took a
long look at Turbine (the TDK really rocks, by the way), but just
couldn't get my head around it. A "rosetta stone" application
implemented with each product would be a good start on finding ways the
subprojects can share resources and interoperate. Of course, I'd be
happy to collaborate. 


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

Ted Husted wrote:
> 
> Jon :
> 
> >No, the right direction would be to use the project which implemented
> this
> >code first and has the most complete solution and ask that project to
> >externalize their code in such a way that it could be used in other
> >projects. Oh wait. The Turbine Project already did all of that work.
> 
> No one's interested in a holy war. We all want to use the best
> technology. If the Turbine pool is both best and first, then it
> shouldn't have a problem being approved as a subproject.
> 
> >But, I'm not going to start working on that other project until I can
> get
> >agreement and proof that Struts community will contribute to the
> project
> >because so far, they have refused to contribute to Turbine which is
> the
> >project they are duplicating...
> 
> If you are serious about this, I would recommend that this be proposed
> as its own subproject. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
> This should not be about Turbine, or Struts, or Jetspeed, it should be
> about a Jakarta connection pool.

And I think it's more than just the connection pool.  I think if one
looked around there would be many places where 'basic parts', of
interest to people developing in the Java server space are being
duplicated across multiple projects.  These parts seem to always be
things that aren't the main deliverable for the  projects, so were
developed to satisfy a local project need, or are absorbed into a
project because there is no good place to put them.

My interest in this subject comes mainly from two places :

- from wanting to have a connection pool to use that I don't have to dig
out of a project I am not using, and futher so I don't have to worry
that the pool will morph in a way subordinate to the needs of the
project it comes from (and therefore change underneath me...)

- from my involvement in Velocity, where there are things that people
who use Velocity want to contribute of a tool and utility nature, but
really are of an application/general use. So from the Velocity point of
view, we want to push them out into a tool/utility package for others to
share, and I am sure that there are plenty of tools and utilities that a
project like Turbine would be able to push out as well for general use.

I have no conclusion other than a misc utility project would be a good
thing to have, especially if we can get the major players to work out
their differences and actually use the thing.  I volunteer to help in
any way needed.

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

Jon, 

>No, the right direction would be to use the project which implemented
this
>code first and has the most complete solution and ask that project to
>externalize their code in such a way that it could be used in other
>projects. Oh wait. The Turbine Project already did all of that work.

No one's interested in a holy war. We all want to use the best
technology. If the Turbine pool is both best and first, then it
shouldn't have a problem being approved as a subproject. 

>But, I'm not going to start working on that other project until I can
get
>agreement and proof that Struts community will contribute to the
project
>because so far, they have refused to contribute to Turbine which is
the
>project they are duplicating...

If you are serious about this, I would recommend that this be proposed
as its own subproject. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
This should not be about Turbine, or Struts, or Jetspeed, it should be
about a Jakarta connection pool. 


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [NOISE] Yaaaaaaaaawwwwnnnnnnnnnnn....

[Ted Husted]

Didn't Sun announce StarPortal first? 

There were definitely a lot of cosmetic similarities between ASP and
JSP when it was first introduced. But Sun did get the important thing
right: JSPs are just another way to write servlets, and have full
access to the Java language. 

Meanwhile, I do agree that every single argument you've ever made
against JSP is valid. But, like many others, I still believe JSPs are
still a good technology for today, and will be a much better technology
tomorrow. All the pieces are there, we just have to finish putting them
together. 

A more jaded observer that I might comment that Microsoft's involvement
in ECMA is the exception that confirms the rule: The only time they are
interested in open source is to crack a proprietary standard that they
don't control. Of course, it would be a glorious thing if Microsoft did
see the light, and made at least the commitment to open source that we
have seen from Sun, or even Netscape or Apple. Getting clients to rely
on open source is * much * easier with those names to drop!

>Being open isn't the key, coming up with technology that is 
>worth working with is...

True: interoperability is key. 

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 2/6/2001 at 5:03 PM Jon Stevens wrote:

>
>
>
>This makes me sad.
>
>This just solidifies the fact that all Sun is trying to do is copy M$
and
>not actually innovate anything because JSP is nothing better than a
Java
>version of ASP. Come on guys, we know you are smart...come up with
something
>good...not more duplication of what already exists...the FUD
surrounding the
>idea that M$ is a closed platform will all fall apart the day that M$
turns
>around and makes it open. They are already doing that...look at their
work
>with the ECMA group!
>
>Being open isn't the key, coming up with technology that is worth
working
>with is...
>
>-jon
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Struts? (was: Re: What is Avalon?)

[Peter Donald]

At 11:54  6/2/01 -0800, James Duncan Davidson wrote:
>On 2/2/01 12:56 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Consider the case of select() style functionality - why has not that been
>> added. It's not because it isn't portable, nor is it because it is
technically
>> hard or a design challenge. I put it to you that the sole reason is
because it
>> would mean that low end servers with a small number of CPUs could actually
>> start to compete with the suns network OS hardware which would be a bad
thing
>> for them. Yet not having this functionality has proved considerably
>> challenging to anyone running java as server and in native threads mode. I
>> suspect this will change with Merlin release as more people were allowed to
>> have an opinion.
>
>Oh this is just hilarious. Of course you aren't going to believe me since my
>motives are always so "questionable", but the reason it's not there is
>because the JDK team have been working through their queue of real problems
>in the platform and this hasn't yet burbled to the top of their queue. It's
>not that it's not a real problem, it is, but when you have finite resources
>and need to structure them to get things done, triage results in things
>dropping that are unfortunate.
>
>Now, whether or not the model that is being used is efficient for getting
>work done or an appropriate model is not something that I want to get into a
>discussion on -- but I'm simply pointing out that you are ascribing to
>malice something that isn't the result of malice.

It makes good buisness sense to not implement select() and is not the
result of malice...

Let me see - which step did I stuff up.

1. Sun coined or at least advocates the term "The network is the computer"
2. For a while Java has been billed as great for serverside stuff
3. The longest bug/feature request relating to serverside stuff is lack of
select()
4. Implementing select() is not difficult considering it is part of POSIX
and implemented on all platforms that I am aware of (except small ones
which use a different platform - J2ME).
5. select() was implemented by other vendors hence the R&D costs should be
minimal
6. Without select it is impossible to write scalable server apps that deal
with sparsly transmitted upon connections except in hardware that have fine
grain locking + many CPUs
7. One of suns greatest revenue streams is selling hardware that has fine
grain locking and many CPUs
8. Given the above - Sun obviously believes networking is important, server
products are a forte of java and have little cost or risk implementing
select().
9. By virtue of 6 and 7 it would be an unwise buisness decision to
implement select() as it would reduce demand for their hardware.

Conclusion ?? (it should be obvious).

Now which step in reasoning is invalid? 


Cheers,

Pete

*--*
| "Computers are useless. They can only give you   |
|answers." - Pablo Picasso |
*--*

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Jon Stevens]

on 2/6/01 5:04 PM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I still don't quite get why this is such an issue. The efficiency of a
> pool comes from sharing connections that use the same login to the same
> database. It would be likely that Jetspeed, Turbine, and Struts may all
> want to connect to the same DBMS, but they would not usually want to
> connect to the same database using the same login.

However, what is missing (from everything BUT Turbine's implementation) is a
"Service" that would allow you to have multiple database connection pools to
multiple different backends with different login account settings. This *is*
something that Turbine provides. Eventually, someone will come along to the
Struts project who needs this functionality and it will get re-implemented
yet again.

> Meanwhile, I do think there would be a lot of interest in a Jakarta
> connection pool. In fact, someone has offered to donate one to Struts.
> 
> < http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-dev&m=97967619230491 >

Totally friggen lame.

*All* of that code (and more) is already implemented in Turbine and can be
used outside of the core "Turbine" system very easily.

> Perhaps the thing to do would be to circulate a Request for Proposal to
> the subprojects that might use database connections, and see what we
> get back. 

No, the right direction would be to use the project which implemented this
code first and has the most complete solution and ask that project to
externalize their code in such a way that it could be used in other
projects. Oh wait. The Turbine Project already did all of that work.

It really disappoints me that Craig and the Struts project have completely
ignored the fact that they said he wouldn't compete with Turbine and would
instead work with us instead of re-implementing everything...instead, now we
have a war of duplication between Turbine and Struts.

As a result, I'm now creating an Essay titled "You make the decision." that
will explain in detail the differences on implementing a system based on top
of Struts+JSP and Turbine+Velocity. It will be up to our user base to choose
the one they prefer and the amount of lower level duplication will continue
to grow until someone wakes up and realizes that this code can be
generalized into another project...

But, I'm not going to start working on that other project until I can get
agreement and proof that Struts community will contribute to the project
because so far, they have refused to contribute to Turbine which is the
project they are duplicating...

Sigh.

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
 | 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 6:37 PM Sam Ruby wrote:
>  But I *do* care if each subproject hoards its own pool 
> of database connections.

I still don't quite get why this is such an issue. The efficiency of a
pool comes from sharing connections that use the same login to the same
database. It would be likely that Jetspeed, Turbine, and Struts may all
want to connect to the same DBMS, but they would not usually want to
connect to the same database using the same login. 

Meanwhile, I do think there would be a lot of interest in a Jakarta
connection pool. In fact, someone has offered to donate one to Struts. 

< http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-dev&m=97967619230491 >

Perhaps the thing to do would be to circulate a Request for Proposal to
the subprojects that might use database connections, and see what we
get back. 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[NOISE] Yaaaaaaaaawwwwnnnnnnnnnnn....

[Jon Stevens]

This makes me sad.

This just solidifies the fact that all Sun is trying to do is copy M$ and
not actually innovate anything because JSP is nothing better than a Java
version of ASP. Come on guys, we know you are smart...come up with something
good...not more duplication of what already exists...the FUD surrounding the
idea that M$ is a closed platform will all fall apart the day that M$ turns
around and makes it open. They are already doing that...look at their work
with the ECMA group!

Being open isn't the key, coming up with technology that is worth working
with is...

-jon


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Sam Ruby]

Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
> My guess is that when all strictly sub-project related tasks
> are delegated to the committers, the PMC could fulfill its
> role even in the presence of many, say 10 to 20 sub-projects.
> Am I missing anything obvious? Cheers, Ceki

Not that I can tell.

Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
> Placing Servlet-related projects in one place and other
> server-related projects in another place seems to invite too
> many implementations of the same idea, because the developers
> don't interface with one another.

Economics of open source development is a weird and wonderful thing.  There
is no scarsity of talent for worthy projects.  For that reason, I don't
much care if there are separate implementations of such things as string
utilities in each subproject.  But I *do* care if each subproject hoards
its own pool of database connections.

And I don't much care whether database connections is considered a
servlet-related or not.

Ted Husted wrote:
>
>  >Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that definition.
>
> I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or not.

In the final analysis, it doesn't much matter what the chairman thinks.
Anybody can pull together a proposal, name themselves as a chairman, and
bring it before the board.  If you get a majority of committers for any
existing subproject to sign on, you get to keep the project.

I've polled Ant.  I'm watching here.  I plan to take steps to increase the
diversity of the existing PMC.


- Sam Ruby


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 11:45 PM Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>My guess is that when all strictly sub-project related tasks are
delegated to the committers, the PMC could fulfill its role even in the
presence of many, say 10 to 20 sub-projects. Am I missing anything
obvious? Cheers, Ceki

Counting what's coming over from Java Apache, we already over  20
subprojects -- and there's talk of dividing Avalon up into at least
three subprojects, and Tomcat into two.  ;-).

There's also a feeling that the PMC should have a working knowledge on
what each subproject is doing, to be sure they retain scope, and to
suggest linkages between the products. With seven PMC members, that's
three unique products each. Though, given the calibre of people on the
PMC now, that's actually within tolerance.

Using Brian Behlendorf 's hierarchy:

< Servlet API >

JServ - a servlet engine implementating the Java Servlet 2.0 API.

Tomcat - the Reference Implementation for the Java Servlet 2.2 and
JavaServer Pages 1.1 APIs.

Watchdog - validation tests for the Servlet and JavaServer Pages
specifications

< Template Engines >

Taglib - a JSP taglib repository.

Velocity - a template engine providing an alternative to Java Server
Pages (JSPs) or PHP.

ECS - the Element Construction Set generates elements for various
markup languages.

JSSI - a Java servlet that implements the  tag as specified by
the Java Web Server.

SPFC*

< Development Tools >

Alexandria - a CVS/Javadoc/Source code/Documentation management system.

Ant - a Java based build tool.

ORO - a set of text-processing Java classes that provide Perl5
compatible regular expressions.

RegEx - a regular expression package for Java.

JMeter  - a  desktop application load test functional behavior and
measure performance.

Logj4 -  a tool to help the programmer output log statements to a
variety of output targets.

Jyve - a servlet-based FAQ-O-Matic system.

< Frameworks >

Jetspeed - an enterprise information portal.

Struts - a Model 2 (MVC) application framework.

Turbine  - a servlet-based framework for experienced Java developers.

< "Other Server-Based" >

Avalon - a common framework for server applications

JAMES - an enterprise mail server (Java Apache Mail Enterprise Server).

Slide -  a WebDAV content management system.

Picoserver - lightweight 100% Java HTTP/1.0 server

Cocoon - publishing framework using new W3C technologies (such as DOM,
XML, and XSL) to provide web content.


*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 2/6/2001 at 11:45 PM Ceki Gülcü wrote:

>At 16:01 06.02.2001 -0500, you wrote:
>>On 2/6/2001 at 9:13 PM Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>>
>>>What would be gained by refining the charter of Jakarta and pruning
>>projects?
>>
>>Roy Fielding has indicated that some action is necessary. His two
>>suggestions were to either ask the board to create additional PMCs,
or
>>to broaden the scope of the existing PMC.
>>
>>> What decisions does the PMC take?
>>
>>Part of the problem is that the ASF PMC's are a recent invention, so
no
>>one is entirely sure how they should work
>>
>>We are working on that as part of the update to the guidelines at <
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#management >.
>
>Thanks for the link. Here is an excerpt from that document:
>
> Responsibilities of the PMC include:
>
> - the active discussion of Project issues, strategic direction, and
forward progress,
>
> - the consideration and approval of new subprojects,
>
> - retiring inactive subprojects and Committers as necessary,
>
> - arbitrating otherwise intractable disputes regarding subproject
voting and vetos,
>
> - the security and reliability of the Project's Web site, mailing
> lists, code repositories, and related services,
>
> - legal issues involving the Project and its subprojects, and
> maintaining Project and subproject scope as chartered by the ASF
corporation
>
>
>As I understand it, the main responsibility of the PMC is to decide
whether to include a sub-project under the Jakarta label and possibly
act as an arbitrator in case of conflicts within a sub-project. There
is also the task of managing the Jakarta web-site + mailing lists but
that is probably less strategic a task (read: a chore). :)
>
>My guess is that when all strictly sub-project related tasks are
delegated to the committers, the PMC could fulfill its role even in the
presence of many, say 10 to 20 sub-projects. Am I missing anything
obvious? Cheers, Ceki
>
>
>
>Ceki Gülcü   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (preferred)
>av. de Rumine 5  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>CH-1005 Lausanne
>SwitzerlandTel: ++41 21 351 23 15
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



---

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 16:01 06.02.2001 -0500, you wrote:
>On 2/6/2001 at 9:13 PM Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
>>What would be gained by refining the charter of Jakarta and pruning
>projects? 
>
>Roy Fielding has indicated that some action is necessary. His two
>suggestions were to either ask the board to create additional PMCs, or
>to broaden the scope of the existing PMC.
>
>> What decisions does the PMC take? 
>
>Part of the problem is that the ASF PMC's are a recent invention, so no
>one is entirely sure how they should work
>
>We are working on that as part of the update to the guidelines at <
>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#management >.

Thanks for the link. Here is an excerpt from that document:

 Responsibilities of the PMC include:

 - the active discussion of Project issues, strategic direction, and forward progress, 
 
 - the consideration and approval of new subprojects, 
 
 - retiring inactive subprojects and Committers as necessary, 
 
 - arbitrating otherwise intractable disputes regarding subproject voting and vetos, 
 
 - the security and reliability of the Project's Web site, mailing
 lists, code repositories, and related services,

 - legal issues involving the Project and its subprojects, and 
 maintaining Project and subproject scope as chartered by the ASF corporation 


As I understand it, the main responsibility of the PMC is to decide whether to include 
a sub-project under the Jakarta label and possibly act as an arbitrator in case of 
conflicts within a sub-project. There is also the task of managing the Jakarta 
web-site + mailing lists but that is probably less strategic a task (read: a chore). :)

My guess is that when all strictly sub-project related tasks are delegated to the 
committers, the PMC could fulfill its role even in the presence of many, say 10 to 20 
sub-projects. Am I missing anything obvious? Cheers, Ceki



Ceki Gülcü   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (preferred)
av. de Rumine 5  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CH-1005 Lausanne  
SwitzerlandTel: ++41 21 351 23 15


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 9:13 PM Ceki Gülcü wrote:

>What would be gained by refining the charter of Jakarta and pruning
projects?

Roy Fielding has indicated that some action is necessary. His two
suggestions were to either ask the board to create additional PMCs, or
to broaden the scope of the existing PMC.

> What decisions does the PMC take?

Part of the problem is that the ASF PMC's are a recent invention, so no
one is entirely sure how they should work

We are working on that as part of the update to the guidelines at <
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#management >.

> Why should I care (as a mere committer) who is on the PMC? :-)

I know you're joking, but it is important to remember that the
Committers are suppose to be the real decision-makers here:

"Guiding principles include pushing down decisions whever possible, and
the ownership of the name and direction of a subproject is to be
determined by the expressed wishes of a majority of committers."

<
http://www.mail-archive.com/ant-dev%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02070.html
>


*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 2/6/2001 at 9:13 PM Ceki Gülcü wrote:

>I quickly read the "Board of Directors Meeting Minutes" of 16
September 1999. The minutes indeed link Java Servlet software to
Jakarta's charter. but isn't this just a technicality?
>
>What would be gained by defining a new PMC? Moreover, I thought that
java.apache.org was going to be merged into jakarta. This is at least
what http://java.apache.org/ says. (Jon confirmed this in an earlier
note.)
>
>What would be gained by refining the charter of Jakarta and pruning
projects? Is it a politically correct way of creating a new PMC? On a
related note, what does the PMC actually do? OK, it answerable to the
Apache Board but what does that mean on a day to day (or meeting to
meeting) basis? What decisions does the PMC take? In particluar, are
those decisions microscopic or macroscopic? Why should I care (as a
mere committer) who is on the PMC? :-)
>
>I apologize in advance if these questions have been already
asked/answered.  Ceki


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fwd: Re: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 8:39 PM Charles Benett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I'm inclined to think it would be better to keep all the Apache
projects in Java together

Not entirely possible, since many of the XML projects are also Java
applications.

< http://xml.apache.org >


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 11:33 AM Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> Much of Struts deals with servlets, but Struts also provides
frameworks for XML parsing and database pooling, correct?  

Only to the extent that they simplify working with the Struts
ActionServlet, which is the core of the framework. 

> I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant Java project, I'm
just saying that a Servlet-oriented charter is too inflexible. I'd
rather see a charter that focuses on Java servers and related tools
(and I think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's another
argument).

Judging from the recent PMC minutes, the current argument does seem to
be for one giant Java project (just strike the word Servlet). 

I'm a divide-and-conquer guy myself, but if simply keeping Java-Apache
up, and shuffling things around is a non-starter, then I'd say we are
back to "formalization of the subproject hierarchy" (from the PMC
minutes) along the lines of Servlet API, Templates, Development Tools,
Frameworks, Server Applications. 

Though, I'm not sure what the process of "formalization" would entail.

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 2/6/2001 at 11:33 AM Morgan Delagrange wrote:

>--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
>> >Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that
>> definition.  
>> 
>> I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or
>> not. It is evident
>> that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of the
>> Jakarta Project. As
>> it stands, the current mission given on the Web site
>> is technically
>> incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's obvious
>> that the ASF will
>> require a board resolution to put things right. 
>
>>From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that he'd
>rather expand the scope than start pruning
>subprojects.
>
>> >If you make the definition of Jakarta this
>> restrictive
>> 
>> Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted.
>> The contract between
>> the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is
>> "charged with the
>> creation and maintenance of open-source Java
>> Servlet-related software
>> for distribution at no charge to the public." 
>
>Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of
>scope according to the current charter.
>
>> As you pointed out,  the Jakarta PMC has exceed its
>> original charter.
>> The ASF board chairman has raised an exception, and
>> presented two
>> alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More
>> PMCs. 
>> 
>> Some people seem to like the idea of a broader
>> charter. Other people
>> have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as a
>> followup to Roy's
>> suggestion (2) that we consider whether chartering
>> Java-Apache for the
>> out-of-scope projects makes any sense. 
>
>Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the
>java.apache.org domain.  The current Jakarta site
>states:
>
>  The older Java Apache Project will have its 
>  projects merged into the Jakarta Project 
>  in the near future (no set date). For more 
>  information please see the announcement on that
>  website. 
>
>If this is still the case, fine.  If not, we need a
>new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org
>needs to go away.
>
>> >Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta
>> project to Servlet-based
>> >technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very
>> short:
>> 
>> But, is that a bad thing?
>
>It's too specific.  See next comment.
>
>> >projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal
>> with servlets in part
>> 
>> I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately
>> Java Servlet-related
>> software.
>
>I didn't say there weren't servlet-related components
>in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts
>than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that
>Struts is not entirely in-scope.  Much of Struts deals
>with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks for
>XML parsing and database pooling, correct?  Since
>these are not specifically servlet-related, they would
>have to be removed from the project.
>
>I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant
>Java project, I'm just saying that a Servlet-oriented
>charter is too inflexible.  I'd rather see a charter
>that focuses on Java servers and related tools (and I
>think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's
>another argument).
>
>- Morgan


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Charles Benett]

Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> 
> Hi Ceki,
> 
> I don't think many of is are terribly concerned about
> the constitution of the PMC, as long as each
> subproject
> has at least some representation.  However, maybe some
> of us really are concerned about that.
> 
> More important to me is what _subprojects_ are under
> the Jakarta umbrella, not what committee members.  To
> me, it seems that placing all Java server-related
> subprojects together invigorates the Jakarta project
> and reduces duplication of effort.

Agreed. And makes each sub-project visible to a wider audience.

>   Placing
> Servlet-related projects in one place and other
> server-related projects in another place seems to
> invite too many implementations of the same idea,
> because the developers don't interface with one
> another.

Agree

> 
> As far as other organizational issues (e.g. whether
> other projects like Ant and ORO should be worked into
> the charter somehow), I'm mainly agnostic.

I'm inclined to think it would be better to keep all the Apache projects
in Java together, for the same reasons as you mention above. But I'd be
happy so long as all the server ones are together.

Charles


> 
> -M
> 
> --- Ceki Glc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I quickly read the "Board of Directors Meeting
> > Minutes" of 16 September 1999. The minutes indeed
> > link Java Servlet software to Jakarta's charter. but
> > isn't this just a technicality?
> >
> > What would be gained by defining a new PMC?
> > Moreover, I thought that java.apache.org was going
> > to be merged into jakarta. This is at least what
> > http://java.apache.org/ says. (Jon confirmed this in
> > an earlier note.)
> >
> > What would be gained by refining the charter of
> > Jakarta and pruning projects? Is it a politically
> > correct way of creating a new PMC? On a related
> > note, what does the PMC actually do? OK, it
> > answerable to the Apache Board but what does that
> > mean on a day to day (or meeting to meeting) basis?
> > What decisions does the PMC take? In particluar, are
> > those decisions microscopic or macroscopic? Why
> > should I care (as a mere committer) who is on the
> > PMC? :-)
> >
> > I apologize in advance if these questions have been
> > already asked/answered.  Ceki
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:33 06.02.2001 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > >--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
> > >> >Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to
> > that
> > >> definition.
> > >>
> > >> I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected"
> > or
> > >> not. It is evident
> > >> that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of
> > the
> > >> Jakarta Project. As
> > >> it stands, the current mission given on the Web
> > site
> > >> is technically
> > >> incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's
> > obvious
> > >> that the ASF will
> > >> require a board resolution to put things right.
> > >
> > > From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that
> > he'd
> > >rather expand the scope than start pruning
> > >subprojects.
> > >
> > >> >If you make the definition of Jakarta this
> > >> restrictive
> > >>
> > >> Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted.
> > >> The contract between
> > >> the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is
> > >> "charged with the
> > >> creation and maintenance of open-source Java
> > >> Servlet-related software
> > >> for distribution at no charge to the public."
> > >
> > >Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of
> > >scope according to the current charter.
> > >
> > >> As you pointed out,  the Jakarta PMC has exceed
> > its
> > >> original charter.
> > >> The ASF board chairman has raised an exception,
> > and
> > >> presented two
> > >> alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More
> > >> PMCs.
> > >>
> > >> Some people seem to like the idea of a broader
> > >> charter. Other people
> > >> have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as
> > a
> > >> followup to Roy's
> > >> suggestion (2) that we consider whether
> > chartering
> > >> Java-Apache for the
> > >> out-of-scope projects makes any sense.
> > >
> > >Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the
> > >java.apache.org domain.  The current Jakarta site
> > >states:
> > >
> > >  The older Java Apache Project will have its
> > >  projects merged into the Jakarta Project
> > >  in the near future (no set date). For more
> > >  information please see the announcement on that
> > >  website.
> > >
> > >If this is still the case, fine.  If not, we need a
> > >new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org
> > >needs to go away.
> > >
> > >> >Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta
> > >> project to Servlet-based
> > >> >technologies, the list of in-scope projects is
> > very
> > >> short:
> > >>
> > >> But, is that a bad thing?
> > >
> > >It's too specific.  See next comment.
> > >
> > >> >projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal
> > >> with servlets in part
> > >>
> > >> I can't vouch for Slid

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Morgan Delagrange]

Hi Ceki,

I don't think many of is are terribly concerned about
the constitution of the PMC, as long as each
subproject
has at least some representation.  However, maybe some
of us really are concerned about that.

More important to me is what _subprojects_ are under
the Jakarta umbrella, not what committee members.  To
me, it seems that placing all Java server-related
subprojects together invigorates the Jakarta project
and reduces duplication of effort.  Placing
Servlet-related projects in one place and other
server-related projects in another place seems to
invite too many implementations of the same idea,
because the developers don't interface with one
another.

As far as other organizational issues (e.g. whether
other projects like Ant and ORO should be worked into
the charter somehow), I'm mainly agnostic.

-M

--- Ceki Gülcü <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I quickly read the "Board of Directors Meeting
> Minutes" of 16 September 1999. The minutes indeed
> link Java Servlet software to Jakarta's charter. but
> isn't this just a technicality? 
> 
> What would be gained by defining a new PMC?
> Moreover, I thought that java.apache.org was going
> to be merged into jakarta. This is at least what
> http://java.apache.org/ says. (Jon confirmed this in
> an earlier note.)
> 
> What would be gained by refining the charter of
> Jakarta and pruning projects? Is it a politically
> correct way of creating a new PMC? On a related
> note, what does the PMC actually do? OK, it
> answerable to the Apache Board but what does that
> mean on a day to day (or meeting to meeting) basis?
> What decisions does the PMC take? In particluar, are
> those decisions microscopic or macroscopic? Why
> should I care (as a mere committer) who is on the
> PMC? :-)
> 
> I apologize in advance if these questions have been
> already asked/answered.  Ceki
> 
> 
> 
> At 11:33 06.02.2001 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
> >> >Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to
> that
> >> definition.  
> >> 
> >> I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected"
> or
> >> not. It is evident
> >> that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of
> the
> >> Jakarta Project. As
> >> it stands, the current mission given on the Web
> site
> >> is technically
> >> incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's
> obvious
> >> that the ASF will
> >> require a board resolution to put things right. 
> >
> > From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that
> he'd
> >rather expand the scope than start pruning
> >subprojects.
> >
> >> >If you make the definition of Jakarta this
> >> restrictive
> >> 
> >> Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted.
> >> The contract between
> >> the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is
> >> "charged with the
> >> creation and maintenance of open-source Java
> >> Servlet-related software
> >> for distribution at no charge to the public." 
> >
> >Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of
> >scope according to the current charter.
> >
> >> As you pointed out,  the Jakarta PMC has exceed
> its
> >> original charter.
> >> The ASF board chairman has raised an exception,
> and
> >> presented two
> >> alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More
> >> PMCs. 
> >> 
> >> Some people seem to like the idea of a broader
> >> charter. Other people
> >> have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as
> a
> >> followup to Roy's
> >> suggestion (2) that we consider whether
> chartering
> >> Java-Apache for the
> >> out-of-scope projects makes any sense. 
> >
> >Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the
> >java.apache.org domain.  The current Jakarta site
> >states:
> >
> >  The older Java Apache Project will have its 
> >  projects merged into the Jakarta Project 
> >  in the near future (no set date). For more 
> >  information please see the announcement on that
> >  website. 
> >
> >If this is still the case, fine.  If not, we need a
> >new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org
> >needs to go away.
> >
> >> >Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta
> >> project to Servlet-based
> >> >technologies, the list of in-scope projects is
> very
> >> short:
> >> 
> >> But, is that a bad thing?
> >
> >It's too specific.  See next comment.
> >
> >> >projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal
> >> with servlets in part
> >> 
> >> I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately
> >> Java Servlet-related
> >> software.
> >
> >I didn't say there weren't servlet-related
> components
> >in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts
> >than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that
> >Struts is not entirely in-scope.  Much of Struts
> deals
> >with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks
> for
> >XML parsing and database pooling, correct?  Since
> >these are not specifically servlet-related, they
> would
> >have to be removed from the project.
> >
> >I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant
>

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ceki Gülcü]

I quickly read the "Board of Directors Meeting Minutes" of 16 September 1999. The 
minutes indeed link Java Servlet software to Jakarta's charter. but isn't this just a 
technicality? 

What would be gained by defining a new PMC? Moreover, I thought that java.apache.org 
was going to be merged into jakarta. This is at least what http://java.apache.org/ 
says. (Jon confirmed this in an earlier note.)

What would be gained by refining the charter of Jakarta and pruning projects? Is it a 
politically correct way of creating a new PMC? On a related note, what does the PMC 
actually do? OK, it answerable to the Apache Board but what does that mean on a day to 
day (or meeting to meeting) basis? What decisions does the PMC take? In particluar, 
are those decisions microscopic or macroscopic? Why should I care (as a mere 
committer) who is on the PMC? :-)

I apologize in advance if these questions have been already asked/answered.  Ceki



At 11:33 06.02.2001 -0800, you wrote:

>--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
>> >Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that
>> definition.  
>> 
>> I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or
>> not. It is evident
>> that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of the
>> Jakarta Project. As
>> it stands, the current mission given on the Web site
>> is technically
>> incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's obvious
>> that the ASF will
>> require a board resolution to put things right. 
>
> From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that he'd
>rather expand the scope than start pruning
>subprojects.
>
>> >If you make the definition of Jakarta this
>> restrictive
>> 
>> Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted.
>> The contract between
>> the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is
>> "charged with the
>> creation and maintenance of open-source Java
>> Servlet-related software
>> for distribution at no charge to the public." 
>
>Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of
>scope according to the current charter.
>
>> As you pointed out,  the Jakarta PMC has exceed its
>> original charter.
>> The ASF board chairman has raised an exception, and
>> presented two
>> alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More
>> PMCs. 
>> 
>> Some people seem to like the idea of a broader
>> charter. Other people
>> have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as a
>> followup to Roy's
>> suggestion (2) that we consider whether chartering
>> Java-Apache for the
>> out-of-scope projects makes any sense. 
>
>Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the
>java.apache.org domain.  The current Jakarta site
>states:
>
>  The older Java Apache Project will have its 
>  projects merged into the Jakarta Project 
>  in the near future (no set date). For more 
>  information please see the announcement on that
>  website. 
>
>If this is still the case, fine.  If not, we need a
>new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org
>needs to go away.
>
>> >Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta
>> project to Servlet-based
>> >technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very
>> short:
>> 
>> But, is that a bad thing?
>
>It's too specific.  See next comment.
>
>> >projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal
>> with servlets in part
>> 
>> I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately
>> Java Servlet-related
>> software.
>
>I didn't say there weren't servlet-related components
>in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts
>than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that
>Struts is not entirely in-scope.  Much of Struts deals
>with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks for
>XML parsing and database pooling, correct?  Since
>these are not specifically servlet-related, they would
>have to be removed from the project.
>
>I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant
>Java project, I'm just saying that a Servlet-oriented
>charter is too inflexible.  I'd rather see a charter
>that focuses on Java servers and related tools (and I
>think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's
>another argument).
>
>- Morgan
>
>
>=
>Morgan Delagrange
>Britannica.com
>
>__
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Ceki Gülcü   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (preferred)
av. de Rumine 5  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CH-1005 Lausanne  
SwitzerlandTel: ++41 21 351 23 15


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Struts? (was: Re: What is Avalon?)

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 2/2/01 12:56 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Consider the case of select() style functionality - why has not that been
> added. It's not because it isn't portable, nor is it because it is technically
> hard or a design challenge. I put it to you that the sole reason is because it
> would mean that low end servers with a small number of CPUs could actually
> start to compete with the suns network OS hardware which would be a bad thing
> for them. Yet not having this functionality has proved considerably
> challenging to anyone running java as server and in native threads mode. I
> suspect this will change with Merlin release as more people were allowed to
> have an opinion.

Oh this is just hilarious. Of course you aren't going to believe me since my
motives are always so "questionable", but the reason it's not there is
because the JDK team have been working through their queue of real problems
in the platform and this hasn't yet burbled to the top of their queue. It's
not that it's not a real problem, it is, but when you have finite resources
and need to structure them to get things done, triage results in things
dropping that are unfortunate.

Now, whether or not the model that is being used is efficient for getting
work done or an appropriate model is not something that I want to get into a
discussion on -- but I'm simply pointing out that you are ascribing to
malice something that isn't the result of malice.

.duncan

-- 
James Duncan Davidson[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  !try; do()


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
> >Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that
> definition.  
> 
> I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or
> not. It is evident
> that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of the
> Jakarta Project. As
> it stands, the current mission given on the Web site
> is technically
> incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's obvious
> that the ASF will
> require a board resolution to put things right. 

>From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that he'd
rather expand the scope than start pruning
subprojects.

> >If you make the definition of Jakarta this
> restrictive
> 
> Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted.
> The contract between
> the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is
> "charged with the
> creation and maintenance of open-source Java
> Servlet-related software
> for distribution at no charge to the public." 

Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of
scope according to the current charter.

> As you pointed out,  the Jakarta PMC has exceed its
> original charter.
> The ASF board chairman has raised an exception, and
> presented two
> alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More
> PMCs. 
> 
> Some people seem to like the idea of a broader
> charter. Other people
> have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as a
> followup to Roy's
> suggestion (2) that we consider whether chartering
> Java-Apache for the
> out-of-scope projects makes any sense. 

Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the
java.apache.org domain.  The current Jakarta site
states:

  The older Java Apache Project will have its 
  projects merged into the Jakarta Project 
  in the near future (no set date). For more 
  information please see the announcement on that
  website. 

If this is still the case, fine.  If not, we need a
new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org
needs to go away.

> >Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta
> project to Servlet-based
> >technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very
> short:
> 
> But, is that a bad thing?

It's too specific.  See next comment.

> >projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal
> with servlets in part
> 
> I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately
> Java Servlet-related
> software.

I didn't say there weren't servlet-related components
in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts
than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that
Struts is not entirely in-scope.  Much of Struts deals
with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks for
XML parsing and database pooling, correct?  Since
these are not specifically servlet-related, they would
have to be removed from the project.

I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant
Java project, I'm just saying that a Servlet-oriented
charter is too inflexible.  I'd rather see a charter
that focuses on Java servers and related tools (and I
think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's
another argument).

- Morgan


=
Morgan Delagrange
Britannica.com

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Jakarta?

[Jon Stevens]

on 2/6/01 4:32 AM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Since Java-Apache has apparently never actually been charted by the
> ASF, why not ask the board go ahead and charter it like the recent PMCs
> for PHP, Perl, and TCL, e.g.

Lets nip this discussion in the bud. Java Apache (ie: java.apache.org) is
going away. It will be no more. It is not being added to. It is not being
changed. It is going away. End of story.

Sun owns the trademark on the word Java (tm) and as part of the unwritten
(ie: spoken) agreement for creating the Jakarta Project, we agreed to stop
using java(tm).apache.org.

So, discuss Jakarta at will, just don't discuss Java Apache.

:-)

thanks,

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
 | 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
>Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that definition.  

I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or not. It is evident
that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of the Jakarta Project. As
it stands, the current mission given on the Web site is technically
incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's obvious that the ASF will
require a board resolution to put things right. 

>If you make the definition of Jakarta this restrictive

Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted. The contract between
the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is "charged with the
creation and maintenance of open-source Java Servlet-related software
for distribution at no charge to the public." 

As you pointed out,  the Jakarta PMC has exceed its original charter.
The ASF board chairman has raised an exception, and presented two
alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More PMCs. 

Some people seem to like the idea of a broader charter. Other people
have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as a followup to Roy's
suggestion (2) that we consider whether chartering Java-Apache for the
out-of-scope projects makes any sense. 

>Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta project to Servlet-based
>technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very short:

But, is that a bad thing?

>projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal with servlets in part

I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately Java Servlet-related
software.

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:

>Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that definition.  Sam
would
>rather make the scope fit the project, rather than the project fit the
new,
>much more restrictive scope.  Right now, the Jakarta project does not
fit
>its current scope, and I think that's what most folks object to.
>
>Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta project to Servlet-based
>technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very short:
>
>Are Jakarta projects Serlvet based?
>---
>Ant  (out of scope) 
>ECS  (out of scope)
>Log4J(out of scope)
>ORO  (out of scope)
>Regexp   (out of scope)
>Slide(partially in scope)
>Struts   (partially in scope)
>Taglibs  (in scope)
>Tomcat   (in scope)
>Velocity (partially in scope)
>Watchdog (in scope)
>
>
>If you make the definition of Jakarta this restrictive, I'm afraid
that a)
>projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal with servlets in part,
may
>not gain enough support, and b) developers might be discouraged by
such a
>dramatic shift in focus.
>
>If we enforce the current charter, at least more of the current
projects are
>in scope:
>
>Are Jakarta projects Server based?
>--
>Ant  (out of scope) 
>ECS  (out of scope)
>Log4J(out of scope)
>ORO  (out of scope)
>Regexp   (out of scope)
>Slide(in scope)
>Struts   (in scope)
>Taglibs  (in scope)
>Tomcat   (in scope)
>Velocity (in scope)
>Watchdog (in scope)
>


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Sam Ruby]

Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
> In the interest of accuracy, I think your summary of
> the Jakarta project is a little narrow.  If you look
> at the charter on the website, it states:

The problem is that the charter on the website does not currently match the
charter as set forward by the Apache board.  For details, take a look at
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/1999/board_minutes_1999_09_16.txt.


- Sam Ruby


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Delagrange, Morgan]

Title: RE: What is Jakarta?





Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that definition.  Sam would rather make the scope fit the project, rather than the project fit the new, much more restrictive scope.  Right now, the Jakarta project does not fit its current scope, and I think that's what most folks object to.

Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta project to Servlet-based technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very short:

Are Jakarta projects Serlvet based?
---
Ant  (out of scope) 
ECS  (out of scope)
Log4J    (out of scope)
ORO  (out of scope)
Regexp   (out of scope)
Slide    (partially in scope)
Struts   (partially in scope)
Taglibs  (in scope)
Tomcat   (in scope)
Velocity (partially in scope)
Watchdog (in scope)



If you make the definition of Jakarta this restrictive, I'm afraid that a) projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal with servlets in part, may not gain enough support, and b) developers might be discouraged by such a dramatic shift in focus.

If we enforce the current charter, at least more of the current projects are in scope:


Are Jakarta projects Server based?
--
Ant  (out of scope) 
ECS  (out of scope)
Log4J    (out of scope)
ORO  (out of scope)
Regexp   (out of scope)
Slide    (in scope)
Struts   (in scope)
Taglibs  (in scope)
Tomcat   (in scope)
Velocity (in scope)
Watchdog (in scope)



> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 11:05 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: What is Jakarta?
> 
> 
> On 2/6/2001 at 9:56 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
> >Specifically, Jakarta is _not_ limited to servlet-based technologies.
> 
> The wording is from the ASF board resolution: 
> 
> <
> http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/1999/board_minute
> s_1999_09_
> 16.txt >
> 
> I believe that this is the "charter" Roy Fielding refers to in his
> message regarding Jakarta being out of scope. 
> 
> <
> http://www.mail-archive.com/ant-dev%40jakarta.apache.org/msg01987.html
> >
> 
> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
> 
> >Hey Ted,
> >
> >In the interest of accuracy, I think your summary of the Jakarta
> project is
> >a little narrow.  If you look at the charter on the website, it
> states:
> >
> >  The goal of the Jakarta Project is to provide commercial-quality 
> >  server solutions based on the Java Platform that are developed 
> >  in an open and cooperative fashion. 
> >
> >- Morgan
> 
> 
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> -- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
> -- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
> -- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

On 2/6/2001 at 9:56 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
>Specifically, Jakarta is _not_ limited to servlet-based technologies.

The wording is from the ASF board resolution: 

<
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/1999/board_minutes_1999_09_
16.txt >

I believe that this is the "charter" Roy Fielding refers to in his
message regarding Jakarta being out of scope. 

<
http://www.mail-archive.com/ant-dev%40jakarta.apache.org/msg01987.html
>

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

>Hey Ted,
>
>In the interest of accuracy, I think your summary of the Jakarta
project is
>a little narrow.  If you look at the charter on the website, it
states:
>
>  The goal of the Jakarta Project is to provide commercial-quality 
>  server solutions based on the Java Platform that are developed 
>  in an open and cooperative fashion. 
>
>- Morgan


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: What is Jakarta?

[Delagrange, Morgan]

Title: RE: What is Jakarta?





Hey Ted,


In the interest of accuracy, I think your summary of the Jakarta project is a little narrow.  If you look at the charter on the website, it states:

  The goal of the Jakarta Project is to provide commercial-quality 
  server solutions based on the Java Platform that are developed 
  in an open and cooperative fashion. 


Specifically, Jakarta is _not_ limited to servlet-based technologies.


- Morgan



> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 6:33 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: What is Jakarta?
> 
> 
> Since Java-Apache has apparently never actually been charted by the
> ASF, why not ask the board go ahead and charter it like the 
> recent PMCs
> for PHP, Perl, and TCL, e.g. 
> 
> " ... the Apache Java Committee be and hereby is responsible  for the
> creation and maintenance of software related to the Java programming
> language ... but excluding Java Servlet-related software which is the
> responsibility of the Apache Jakarta Committee;"
> 
> This could lead to something like :
> 
> <  java.apache.org >
> 
> Alexandria - a CVS/Javadoc/Source code/Documentation 
> management system.
> 
> Ant - a Java based build tool.
> 
> CJAN - [early planning stage - method for distributing Java 
> components]
> 
> JMeter  - a  desktop application load test functional behavior and
> measure performance. 
> 
> Logj4 -  a tool to help the programmer output log statements to a
> variety of output targets. 
> 
> ORO - a set of text-processing Java classes that provide Perl5
> compatible regular expressions.
> 
> RegEx - a regular expression package for Java.
> 
> 
> < jakarta.apache.org >
> 
> JServ - a servlet engine implementating the Java Servlet 2.0 API.
> 
> JSSI - a Java servlet that implements the  tag as 
> specified by
> the Java Web Server.
> 
> Tomcat - the Reference Implementation for the Java Servlet 2.2 and
> JavaServer Pages 1.1 APIs.
> 
> Watchdog - validation tests for the Servlet and JavaServer Pages
> specifications
> 
> 
> Avalon - a common framework for server applications 
> 
> JAMES - an enterprise mail server (Java Apache Mail 
> Enterprise Server).
> 
> Jetspeed - an enterprise information portal. 
> 
> Slide -  a WebDAV content management system.
> 
> Jyve - a servlet-based FAQ-O-Matic system.
> 
> 
> ECS - the Element Construction Set generates elements for various
> markup languages.
> 
> Struts - a Model 2 (MVC) application framework.
> 
> Taglib - a JSP taglib repository.
> 
> Turbine  - a servlet-based framework for experienced Java developers.
> 
> Velocity - a template engine providing an alternative to Java Server
> Pages (JSPs) or PHP. 
> 
> 
> 
> This addresses Jakarta being "out of scope", and mitigates 
> the question
> of whether a single PMC can oversee so many subprojects. 
> 
> The new Apache Java PMC (consisting of active committers from those
> subprojects) can then focus on the best way to organize and expose the
> smaller toolsets, which may also be useful to the XML products.
> 
> Also, was the following ever discussed at the members meeting, and if
> so, what was the outcome?
> 
> >  1) should the PMC report directly to the board
> >  2) should the PMC consist entirely of ASF members
> >  3) should the PMC chairperson be an ASF member
> >  4) should the PMC composition be set by the board 
> >  or delegated to the project after the initial PMC creation
> >  5) should the appointment of the PMC chairperson be 
> >  restricted to candidates proposed by the project
> 
> I'm about to make another pass at the proposed guidelines, and want to
> be sure we are in compliance with any recent resolutions. 
> I've read the
> ASF board minutes, but haven't found the "member" minutes.
> 
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> -- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
> -- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
> -- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

What is Jakarta?

[Ted Husted]

Since Java-Apache has apparently never actually been charted by the
ASF, why not ask the board go ahead and charter it like the recent PMCs
for PHP, Perl, and TCL, e.g. 

" ... the Apache Java Committee be and hereby is responsible  for the
creation and maintenance of software related to the Java programming
language ... but excluding Java Servlet-related software which is the
responsibility of the Apache Jakarta Committee;"

This could lead to something like :

<  java.apache.org >

Alexandria - a CVS/Javadoc/Source code/Documentation management system.

Ant - a Java based build tool.

CJAN - [early planning stage - method for distributing Java components]

JMeter  - a  desktop application load test functional behavior and
measure performance. 

Logj4 -  a tool to help the programmer output log statements to a
variety of output targets. 

ORO - a set of text-processing Java classes that provide Perl5
compatible regular expressions.

RegEx - a regular expression package for Java.


< jakarta.apache.org >

JServ - a servlet engine implementating the Java Servlet 2.0 API.

JSSI - a Java servlet that implements the  tag as specified by
the Java Web Server.

Tomcat - the Reference Implementation for the Java Servlet 2.2 and
JavaServer Pages 1.1 APIs.

Watchdog - validation tests for the Servlet and JavaServer Pages
specifications


Avalon - a common framework for server applications 

JAMES - an enterprise mail server (Java Apache Mail Enterprise Server).

Jetspeed - an enterprise information portal. 

Slide -  a WebDAV content management system.

Jyve - a servlet-based FAQ-O-Matic system.


ECS - the Element Construction Set generates elements for various
markup languages.

Struts - a Model 2 (MVC) application framework.

Taglib - a JSP taglib repository.

Turbine  - a servlet-based framework for experienced Java developers.

Velocity - a template engine providing an alternative to Java Server
Pages (JSPs) or PHP. 



This addresses Jakarta being "out of scope", and mitigates the question
of whether a single PMC can oversee so many subprojects. 

The new Apache Java PMC (consisting of active committers from those
subprojects) can then focus on the best way to organize and expose the
smaller toolsets, which may also be useful to the XML products.

Also, was the following ever discussed at the members meeting, and if
so, what was the outcome?

>  1) should the PMC report directly to the board
>  2) should the PMC consist entirely of ASF members
>  3) should the PMC chairperson be an ASF member
>  4) should the PMC composition be set by the board 
>  or delegated to the project after the initial PMC creation
>  5) should the appointment of the PMC chairperson be 
>  restricted to candidates proposed by the project

I'm about to make another pass at the proposed guidelines, and want to
be sure we are in compliance with any recent resolutions. I've read the
ASF board minutes, but haven't found the "member" minutes.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 425-0252; Fax 716 223-2506.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Back to Avalon...

[Federico Barbieri]

Jon Stevens wrote:
> 
> on 2/2/01 12:27 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > At 11:10  2/2/01 -0800, Jon Stevens wrote:
> >> Ok, I'm seeing other people discuss this without any sort of final decision
> >> here, so I think we need to get back on topic. So far, top level package
> >> names are expressly reserved for top level projects.
> >
> > Well not every one seems to obey it. Examples include catalina (3 top level
> > names - catalina, naming, jasper), James (mailet, james). I am sure I could
> > for more examples if I looked ;)
> 
> I personally obey it and as someone at the PMC level, then I see my job as
> being to encourage you and others to obey it as well. Two wrongs don't make
> a right. I personally think that the namespace for Tomcat should really be:
> 
> org.apache.tomcat
> org.apache.tomcat.naming
> org.apache.tomcat.jasper (at least until it is split out of the Servlet API)
> 
> Catalina itself should live within the Tomcat namespace since it is simply a
> revolution that has already been voted to become Tomcat.
> 
> For a perfect example of this, I created Anakia which is used as the basis
> to power our website. I placed Anakia within org.apache.velocity.anakia and
> created a small documentation page for Anakia within the Velocity project.
> 
> There are several things within Turbine that could be spun out as separate
> projects as well such as Torque, DB connection pool, Intake, etc...however,
> I haven't found the need so far to do that...(although, it is starting to
> become more clear there is a need for that)...
> 
> >> I would be +1 for something like this:
> >>
> >> org.apache.avalon
> >> org.apache.avalon.phoenix
> >> org.apache.avalon.cornerstone
> >
> > I would be -1 for it ;) The reason is we are just moving away from this.
> > The reason is that the base framework is used by phoenix rather than
> > phoenix being a part of avalon. I would put it in the same acceptability as
> > mandating "org.apache.turbine.jetspeed" as Jetspeed uses Turbine.
> 
> Then you should be suggesting another top level project be created instead
> of creating a pseudo project that is half within Avalon and half within the
> top level namespace.
> 
> Just like there is for Jetspeed.
> 

not sure... from Peter point of view phoenix is one possible kernel
implementation exactly as cocoon is (uses avalon as scheleton) as James
(is a block but a mailet container/engine too) and as turbine or
jetspeed could be. Remember avalon is not by any mean related to the
idea of Block. It's just a set of abstract design patterns and some
utils.

Right now I'm +0.5 for peter proposal. But I don't want this to stop
avalon from moving.

Federico Barbieri
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What is Struts? (was: Re: What is Avalon?)

[Federico Barbieri]

Ted Husted wrote:
> 
> > The desire to work together is core to my thesis that there is a
> Jakarta community here.
> 
> There often seems to be an assumption that our resources, or community,
> is limited. There are a great number of Java developers in the world,
> and our numbers grow every day. A project like Struts, with a clear
> internal focus on J2EE compatability can easily attract developers that
> would not otherwise contribute. I happen to be one.
> 
> When considering the merits of a product, it is important to consider
> the human factor of both our users and developers. It's no secret the
> teams working on competiting solutions often "hate each other". Maybe
> that's a good thing. It may not be as efficient, but given the human
> factor, duplicating resources and fostering competition is usually more
> * effective * than "benevolent" cooperation.
> 
> We need more than just science. We need scientists.
> 
> Are we developers looking for projects, or products looking for
> developers?
> 
> Are we building a cathedral, or a bazaar?
> 

just a quick note... a pure bazaar does not scale. period.
 
IMHO if two project share some needs it's probally more a pain than a
gain to enforce code sharing too. But a third new project will probally
benefit and so all following. It's a matter of opening the path in a
forest to make things easier for followers. 

So I'm very +1 for a jakarta util project. Code sharing is the only way
to create standards (good standars) inside apache itself without
following Sun footsteps. 
That's the main goal of Avalon. For example it defines and implements a
lookup service very different from JNDI (ComponentManager). It's not a
Sun standard but IMHO it's much better for some situation. 
Many devs and users on the list are very happy about it and are using
such pattern in their own products creating a new standard. It's hard
not being Sun to enforce a standard but... I mean... we are Apache! Not
an unknown group of loosers! :-)

If you need a volonteer for jakarta-utils I'm definitly in.

Federico Barbieri
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]