Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[micael]

I think we can all agree that there are varying issues here.  For some 
environments, especially those that allow "htmlers" (which we all are) to 
dink with backend code, jsp probably is not the best solution.  For other 
environments, it is a boon.

At 01:21 AM 10/8/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>On 8/10/02 1:13, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
> >
> > #if (..)
> > #end
> >
> > in Velocity...?
>
>I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what "templates" are ! :-) Dude,
>we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, but stuff that
>Macromedia DreamWeaver can parse and (somehow) render! :-)
>
>Definitely "templating" is not an elegant approach, but it works. At least
>Tea and Velocity are not "compiled" straight into Java Code (therefore
>killing all HTMLers who thought they can "code" in Java, but in fact only
>producing tons of OutOfMemoryExceptions).
>
>More than "separation of concerns" using something better compared to JSP is
>a headache wonder (go and try to figure out where an OutOfMemoryException
>comes from, just to discover that in one of your 5000 JSPs you have an idiot
>playing around with Sessions, or why your database is hosed, and find out
>that some other lame creep is forgetting to call "connection.close()"...
>Arrrggghh)...
>
>JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and
>obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in
>less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better...
>
> Pier
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/7 6:56 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You mean this, taken from the page, don't you?
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> #if ($request.getParameter("name") == null)
>  Hello World
> #else
>  Hello, $request.getParameter("name")
> #end
> 
> 
> 
> At least if you're using JSP/JSTL, you don't have to explain method calls to
> your "non-programmer designers".

The above could just as easily be written as:


Hello


#if (!$name)
   Hello World
#else
   Hello, $name
#end



No method calls. Let's see how easy you can make the JSTL equivalent.

> I see no syntax changes, only new tags and attributes.

Actually, the syntax changed quite a lot...a simple "if" statement went from
a single element (which made no sense) to a multiple element syntax (clearly
to support what XSLT doeswhich IMHO only complicates things even further
because XSLT is even further above what most designers understand...):

from:



to:


  

What does "c" stand for? Oh wait...explain that to your designers. Also, I
believe you forgot a bunch of other junk that you have to put at the top of
the file or in configuration files to configure what "c" means anyway.

It is quite funny to me to see you try to justify something that is
obviously more difficult to understand and write.

-jon

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Martin Cooper]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 6:04 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
> 
> 
> on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better, 
> but if you bring
> > the JSP example on that page up to date, using JSTL, you'll 
> have this:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >   Hello World
> > 
> > 
> >   Hello, 
> > 
> > 
> 
> I dunno about you, but I would much rather teach my 
> non-programmer designers
> to type:
> 
> #if ($foo)
>  Hello, $foo
> #else 
>  Hello World
> #end

You mean this, taken from the page, don't you?


Hello


#if ($request.getParameter("name") == null)
   Hello World
#else
   Hello, $request.getParameter("name")
#end



At least if you're using JSP/JSTL, you don't have to explain method calls to
your "non-programmer designers".

> 
> Than the bunch of pseudo XML programming language junk you quoted
> above...ouch, my hands hurt just looking at that...oh wait, people are
> supposed to use GUI drag and drop for all of that 
> stuff...yea...right...
> 
> Oh yea, should I mention that Velocity syntax has remained 
> unchanged since
> it was first released as 1.0 (back in April 2001)? I wonder 
> how many times
> JSP/JSTL/Struts/FooBar syntax will need to be brought 'up to date'...

I see no syntax changes, only new tags and attributes.

--
Martin Cooper


> 
> WAKE UP PEOPLE.
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- 
> StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
> 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
> http://studioz.tv/
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

For additional commands, e-mail: 



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better, but if you bring
> the JSP example on that page up to date, using JSTL, you'll have this:
>
> 
> 
>   Hello World
> 
> 
>   Hello, 
> 
> 

I dunno about you, but I would much rather teach my non-programmer designers
to type:

#if ($foo)
 Hello, $foo
#else 
 Hello World
#end

Than the bunch of pseudo XML programming language junk you quoted
above...ouch, my hands hurt just looking at that...oh wait, people are
supposed to use GUI drag and drop for all of that stuff...yea...right...

Oh yea, should I mention that Velocity syntax has remained unchanged since
it was first released as 1.0 (back in April 2001)? I wonder how many times
JSP/JSTL/Struts/FooBar syntax will need to be brought 'up to date'...

WAKE UP PEOPLE.

-jon

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[dion]

Scott Eade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 10:12:33 AM:

> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > #if (..)
> > #end
> > 
> > in Velocity...?
> > 
> >> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 
AM:
> >> 
> >> <% 
> >> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
> >>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
> >> } 
> >> %>
> 
> But the Velocity is much easier to teach to a web designer 
(non-programmer)
> than the JSP.
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html

I really shouldn't have replied before, but since i did

we've been over this a million times before, and the ymtd document has 
some glaring inconsistencies I've pointed out years ago wrt the struts 
version of things. Using it as a prop in these arguments is a major 
woftam.

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Martin Cooper]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 5:28 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
> 
> 
> Actually, yes. 
> 
> Here is the specific reason(s):
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd-saying-hello.html

Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better, but if you bring
the JSP example on that page up to date, using JSTL, you'll have this:


Hello



  
Hello World
  
  
Hello, 
  




No hoops to jump through any more.

--
Martin Cooper


> 
> Most specifically, if you want to make the word "doesn't" in 
> the example
> below bold...now, you have embedded HTML into your 
> println...and we know it
> isn't MVC to embed HTML into Java code, right?
> 
> #if ($foo)
>   Andy doesn't think its good
> #end
> 
> Of course I wrote the YMTD document so that we don't have to 
> have these same
> discussions over and over again.
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- 
> StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
> 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
> http://studioz.tv/
> 
> on 2002/10/7 5:13 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
> > 
> > #if (..)
> > #end
> > 
> > in Velocity...?
> > --
> > dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> > Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> > Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
> > 
> > 
> > "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 
> 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM:
> > 
> >> Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the 
> conceptual
> >> nastiness of it.
> >> 
> >> <% 
> >> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
> >>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
> >> }
> >> %>
> >> 
> >> -Andy
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

For additional commands, e-mail: 



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and
> obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in
> less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better...
> 
>   Pier

It is so nice to hear you say that finally Pier. =)

-jon

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/7 4:45 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy Gonzales"
> version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag
> libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! :-)
> 
> Plus it has its own editor, Kettle, (kinda Goofy, but far from being a cheap
> Scrooge version of an IDE), and it's BSD (thanks to our Brian "Donald"
> Behlendorf who lured them into believing that Open Source is a "good
> thing").
> 
>   Quack

Tea is a great alternative to JSP if you are stuck with that mentality of
doing templates.

Woof

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 8/10/02 1:12, "Scott Eade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> But the Velocity is much easier to teach to a web designer (non-programmer)
> than the JSP.
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html

More than easier to teach, is that it _forbids_ them to do what they're not
supposed to do... Code... Otherwise, where will I get my salary from? (Well,
I can still get it if I have to restart our main Servlet engine 5 times a
day, but boy, that's bring).

BTW,  should be
extended... It doesn't tell you all those sort of damages that a JSP can do
to your host environment...

Pier


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Jon Scott Stevens]

Actually, yes. 

Here is the specific reason(s):

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd-saying-hello.html

Most specifically, if you want to make the word "doesn't" in the example
below bold...now, you have embedded HTML into your println...and we know it
isn't MVC to embed HTML into Java code, right?

#if ($foo)
  Andy doesn't think its good
#end

Of course I wrote the YMTD document so that we don't have to have these same
discussions over and over again.

-jon

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/

on 2002/10/7 5:13 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
> 
> #if (..)
> #end
> 
> in Velocity...?
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
> 
> 
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM:
> 
>> Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the conceptual
>> nastiness of it.
>> 
>> <% 
>> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
>>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
>> }
>> %>
>> 
>> -Andy


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 8/10/02 1:13, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
> 
> #if (..)
> #end
> 
> in Velocity...?

I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what "templates" are ! :-) Dude,
we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, but stuff that
Macromedia DreamWeaver can parse and (somehow) render! :-)

Definitely "templating" is not an elegant approach, but it works. At least
Tea and Velocity are not "compiled" straight into Java Code (therefore
killing all HTMLers who thought they can "code" in Java, but in fact only
producing tons of OutOfMemoryExceptions).

More than "separation of concerns" using something better compared to JSP is
a headache wonder (go and try to figure out where an OutOfMemoryException
comes from, just to discover that in one of your 5000 JSPs you have an idiot
playing around with Sessions, or why your database is hosed, and find out
that some other lame creep is forgetting to call "connection.close()"...
Arrrggghh)...

JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and
obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in
less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better...

Pier


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Scott Eade]

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> #if (..)
> #end
> 
> in Velocity...?
> 
>> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM:
>> 
>> <% 
>> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
>>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
>> } 
>> %>

But the Velocity is much easier to teach to a web designer (non-programmer)
than the JSP.
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html

Scott
-- 
Scott Eade
Backstage Technologies Pty. Ltd.
http://www.backstagetech.com.au



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Nope.  That sucks too.  Not that my opinion should matter.

On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 20:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
> 
> #if (..)
> #end
> 
> in Velocity...?
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
> 
> 
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM:
> 
> > Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the conceptual
> > nastiness of it.
> > 
> > <% 
> > if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
> >out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
> > } 
> > %>
> > 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 19:45, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > > On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me...  ;-) (I 
> just
> > > > couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)
> > > 
> > > It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy 
> Gonzales"
> > > version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag
> > > libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! 
> :-)
> > > 
> > > Plus it has its own editor, Kettle, (kinda Goofy, but far from being a 
> cheap
> > > Scrooge version of an IDE), and it's BSD (thanks to our Brian "Donald"
> > > Behlendorf who lured them into believing that Open Source is a "good
> > > thing").
> > > 
> > > Quack
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> 
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> > > 
> > -- 
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > Java 
> > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > structure
> >   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[dion]

And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than

#if (..)
#end

in Velocity...?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM:

> Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the conceptual
> nastiness of it.
> 
> <% 
> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
> } 
> %>
> 
> -Andy
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 19:45, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me...  ;-) (I 
just
> > > couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)
> > 
> > It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy 
Gonzales"
> > version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag
> > libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! 
:-)
> > 
> > Plus it has its own editor, Kettle, (kinda Goofy, but far from being a 
cheap
> > Scrooge version of an IDE), and it's BSD (thanks to our Brian "Donald"
> > Behlendorf who lured them into believing that Open Source is a "good
> > thing").
> > 
> > Quack
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: 

> > For additional commands, e-mail: 

> > 
> -- 
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java 
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
>   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

> 


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the conceptual
nastiness of it.

<% 
if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
} 
%>

-Andy
 

On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 19:45, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me...  ;-) (I just
> > couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)
> 
> It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy Gonzales"
> version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag
> libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! :-)
> 
> Plus it has its own editor, Kettle, (kinda Goofy, but far from being a cheap
> Scrooge version of an IDE), and it's BSD (thanks to our Brian "Donald"
> Behlendorf who lured them into believing that Open Source is a "good
> thing").
> 
> Quack
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me...  ;-) (I just
> couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)

It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy Gonzales"
version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag
libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! :-)

Plus it has its own editor, Kettle, (kinda Goofy, but far from being a cheap
Scrooge version of an IDE), and it's BSD (thanks to our Brian "Donald"
Behlendorf who lured them into believing that Open Source is a "good
thing").

Quack


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me...  ;-) (I just
couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)

On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 18:08, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 7/10/02 22:01, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from
> > turbine...  Struts has a bit more "design cohesion" shall we say?  Where
> > turbine is a bit moreorganic in places.
> > 
> > The nice thing about Turbine is that it does favor containment over
> > inheritance, same thing with Struts (not necessarily so with Avalon +
> > friends).  The bad thing is that Turbine is all things to all people in
> > some ways..  
> > 
> > I think I kinda like Turbine better than Struts...but the verdict isn't
> > out yet.  (Bias:  I think JSP sucks equine hybrid reproductive
> > organs..correction...I think that about ASP... JSP I think of as ASP
> > with its father run off ;-) )
> 
> http://opensource.go.com/
> 
> Pier
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 7/10/02 22:01, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from
> turbine...  Struts has a bit more "design cohesion" shall we say?  Where
> turbine is a bit moreorganic in places.
> 
> The nice thing about Turbine is that it does favor containment over
> inheritance, same thing with Struts (not necessarily so with Avalon +
> friends).  The bad thing is that Turbine is all things to all people in
> some ways..  
> 
> I think I kinda like Turbine better than Struts...but the verdict isn't
> out yet.  (Bias:  I think JSP sucks equine hybrid reproductive
> organs..correction...I think that about ASP... JSP I think of as ASP
> with its father run off ;-) )

http://opensource.go.com/

Pier


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Andrew C. Oliver]

While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from
turbine...  Struts has a bit more "design cohesion" shall we say?  Where
turbine is a bit moreorganic in places.  

The nice thing about Turbine is that it does favor containment over
inheritance, same thing with Struts (not necessarily so with Avalon +
friends).  The bad thing is that Turbine is all things to all people in
some ways..  

I think I kinda like Turbine better than Struts...but the verdict isn't
out yet.  (Bias:  I think JSP sucks equine hybrid reproductive
organs..correction...I think that about ASP... JSP I think of as ASP
with its father run off ;-) )

-Andy

On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 16:12, James Taylor wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-10-05 at 19:36, John McNally wrote:
> > This is not really the correct place, but a short answer is struts is
> > jsp-centric while turbine attempts to be neutral on the actual
> > templating mechanism.  Given that most jsp developers gravitate to
> > struts means you get the best support if using velocity within turbine. 
> > Struts most certainly has more users, but the turbine developer
> > community is healthy.  I'm pretty sure both will survive.
> 
> Healthy as in active, but not always mentally healthy. You will
> occasionally hear turbine developers muttering things like "the next
> version will support the struts action resolution mechanism" or "we need
> to support JSP as a first class templating option". It is at that point
> that you should run away.
> 
> > 
> > john mcnally
> > 
> > On Sat, 2002-10-05 at 11:08, Dominic Gagne wrote:
> > > I hope I'm asking the right mailing list ...  I'd like to know the
> > > differences between Struts and Turbine project. I'm currently using Turbine
> > > framework to build a web application and I see that Struts could offer me
> > > the same kind of solution, am I right ? I would also like to know which
> > > project in moving faster and has more chance the stay alive ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[James Taylor]

On Sat, 2002-10-05 at 19:36, John McNally wrote:
> This is not really the correct place, but a short answer is struts is
> jsp-centric while turbine attempts to be neutral on the actual
> templating mechanism.  Given that most jsp developers gravitate to
> struts means you get the best support if using velocity within turbine. 
> Struts most certainly has more users, but the turbine developer
> community is healthy.  I'm pretty sure both will survive.

Healthy as in active, but not always mentally healthy. You will
occasionally hear turbine developers muttering things like "the next
version will support the struts action resolution mechanism" or "we need
to support JSP as a first class templating option". It is at that point
that you should run away.

> 
> john mcnally
> 
> On Sat, 2002-10-05 at 11:08, Dominic Gagne wrote:
> > I hope I'm asking the right mailing list ...  I'd like to know the
> > differences between Struts and Turbine project. I'm currently using Turbine
> > framework to build a web application and I see that Struts could offer me
> > the same kind of solution, am I right ? I would also like to know which
> > project in moving faster and has more chance the stay alive ?




--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: