Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Steve Downey]

On Wednesday 09 October 2002 07:18 pm, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 9/10/02 3:47, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer.  I tried to convince my boss that
> > a certain "customization" required so many fundamental changes that it
> > would be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right.  He
> > told me that he would never be able to convince the CEO that was the
> > right choice, so the "Quick and Dirty" route was the choice--taking me
> > twice as long to get it done.
>
> I got out of the same tie today, but I won! :-) And it was about Objects in
> PL-SQL... That was a close one! :-)
>
Objects in PL-SQL. 

I still have nightmares. 

SQLJ and Oracle's Object extensions were so seductive. 



And I'm in the camp that thinks the ad going around with the snail/cheetah <=> 
Relational/Object just shows that most OO developers are ignorant regarding 
the relational model.

> Pier


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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[dion]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/10/2002 03:40:35 AM:

> Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces 
the
> > best code for the long term.
> > 
> > PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the
> > crappiest code for the long term.
> 
> mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a
> clever balance between the two.
> 
> > XML IS NOT A PROGAMMING LANGUAGE.
> 
> For certain!  This is one of my biggest issues with Ant and
> Jelly/Maven -- working with them is just ... icky.

So use the script tag in Ant/Jelly.

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers

Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/9 4:20 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I believe they also "tried" to make a JSR out of it, but got shot down
> somewhere in the middle... :-(
> 
>   Pier

Geir and I approached the JCP about creating a JSR for a "Java Template
Language" (see enclosed) and even had a number assigned to track it (I
forget which number now).

However, after battling some ASF people (ahem Craig) who didn't want to see
the ASF support such a useful thing (Craig is afraid that Velocity might
actually beat the shit out of his companies JSP) as well as discussions with
clueless JCP EC members who couldn't tell the difference between Velocity
and JSP (Hello! Ever tried to use JSP outside of a web request??); Geir
and I decided to remove our proposal. On top of it, this was right when the
ASF was in the heated battle with the JCP to get what we wanted in terms of
licensing so the timing was off anyway.

In the end, I think the JCP is a miserable failure anyway. Sun's stock isn't
worth anything http://chart.yahoo.com/c/0b/s/sunw.gif and the JCP is still
weighed down with a minimal support staff and a load of bullshit politics
which only make the lawyers rich.

Imho, Velocity is as much of a "standard" as JSP is and doesn't need the JCP
to 'approve' it.

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd-implementation.html

-jon

-- 
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314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
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Java Template 
Language


General Instructions


This template has been designed to be 
easily filled out using an HTML editor. Please complete all sections. Don't forget to 
give the proposed specification a name. 


E-mail the completed JSR to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]. Don't forget to include the 
name of the JSR in the subject line.

As stated in Section 
1 of the Java Community Process, JSRs will only be accepted from Members.



Title:(Insert JSR name 
here)

Java Template Language

Summary:(Please provide a description of the JSR in 30 words or 
less)


This JSR defines a template language, the functionality of the template 

processing engine, and supporting APIs designed for
formatting and processing textual 
and other information from Java.Section 1. 
Identification

Submitting Member: Apache Software Foundation

Name of Contact Person: Geir Magnusson Jr. and Jon S. Stevens

E-Mail Address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Telephone 
Number: 203-834-0898 and 510-843-3122

Fax Number: none


Specification Lead: Geir Magnusson Jr. and Jon S. Stevens

E-Mail 
Address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Telephone Number: 
203-834-0898 and 510-843-3122

Fax Number: noneInitial 
Expert Group Membership: (Please provide company
or organization names.  Note 
that expert group members must have 
signed the 
JSPA.)

Apache Software Foundation


Section 2: Request


2.1 Please describe the 
proposed Specification:

 
We intend to propose a standard Java Template 
Language which is
based upon the Apache Jakarta Velocity project as the reference
 
   implementation. Here is a description of Velocity:
 

 
Velocity is a 
Java-based template engine. It permits anyone to use
the simple yet powerful 
template language to reference objects
defined in Java code. It also defines a 
minimal set of directives
that control basic logic, variables and basic looping 
constructs.
 
   
 
When Velocity is used for web development, Web 
designers can work in
parallel with Java programmers to develop web sites 
according to the
Model-View-Controller (MVC) model, meaning that web page 
designers
can focus solely on creating a site that looks good, and programmers
can focus solely on writing top-notch code.
 

 
  Velocity has been 
successfully used to solve many problems in textual
  processing and data output in 
Java. These solutions include source
  code (Java, C, etc) and SQL code generation, 
XML document
  transformation in conjunction with and in place of XSLT, and web page
  
generation in the Java servlet environment. Velocity is also included
  in 
GentleWare's Poseidon for UML Community Edition as the template
  tool for dynamic 
generation of Java code from UML.
 

 
For more information on Velocity, 
please visit the http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/";>website which
  
  contains full documentation and download the release.
 

2.2 What is the 
target Java platform? (i.e., desktop, server, personal, embedded, card, etc.)

Desktop, Server, Personal

2.3 What need of the Java community will be 
addressed by the proposed specification?


There is currently no formal Java 
Template Language specification.


2.4 Why isn't this need met by existing 
specifications?


There is currently no formal Java Template Language 
specification.


2.5 Please give a short description of the underlying 
technology or technologies:


Velocity is implemented as 100% Pure Java

Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0

[Andrew C. Oliver]

What do you expect from idiots who think naming api's JAX[letter] is a
good idea?  (JAXM/JAXP/JAXB/JAXC/etc... I'm sorry but that is just
really really stupid sick and befuddled!  BAD BAD BADAnd this is
coming from me!  The sick abbreviation kingpin himself!)

-Andy

On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 19:20, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> I believe they also "tried" to make a JSR out of it, but got shot down
> somewhere in the middle... :-(
> 
> Pier
> 
> On 9/10/02 13:38, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Cool!  I'm impressed!  I'll have to check that out.
> > 
> > On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 20:12, Daniel Rall wrote:
> >> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> 
> >>> Even if it ties me to an Apache-proprietary template language, trading
> >>> that for something less disgusting than JSP seems preferable.
> >> 
> >> Note that Velocity actually implements a documented specification
> >> which any vender can pick up create their own implementation of.
> >> -- 
> >> 
> >> Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> 
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >> 
> 
> 
> --
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Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0

[Pier Fumagalli]

I believe they also "tried" to make a JSR out of it, but got shot down
somewhere in the middle... :-(

Pier

On 9/10/02 13:38, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Cool!  I'm impressed!  I'll have to check that out.
> 
> On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 20:12, Daniel Rall wrote:
>> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> 
>>> Even if it ties me to an Apache-proprietary template language, trading
>>> that for something less disgusting than JSP seems preferable.
>> 
>> Note that Velocity actually implements a documented specification
>> which any vender can pick up create their own implementation of.
>> -- 
>> 
>> Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>> 


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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 8/10/02 23:59, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the
> best code for the long term.
> 
> PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the
> crappiest code for the long term.

The problem is when you see people using Java as PHP... That _really_ screws
things up... Want some few megs of classes as an example? Nah, you'll hack
in my employer's site in less than 10 minutes! :-)

Pier


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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 9/10/02 3:47, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer.  I tried to convince my boss that
> a certain "customization" required so many fundamental changes that it would
> be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right.  He told me
> that he would never be able to convince the CEO that was the right choice,
> so the "Quick and Dirty" route was the choice--taking me twice as long to
> get it done.

I got out of the same tie today, but I won! :-) And it was about Objects in
PL-SQL... That was a close one! :-)

Pier


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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[James Taylor]

On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 14:05, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, "Daniel Rall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a
> > clever balance between the two.
> 
> Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets.
> 
> http://www.modpython.org/live/mod_python-2.7.8/doc-html/tut-pub.html
> 
> Notice the HTML embedded in the .py file? There really isn't anything
> different between that and a servlet and isn't python slower than Java
> anyway? So, now we just go down the path of re-implementing everything we
> have spent years implementing in Java...I don't see the gain.

For apples to apples:

http://webware.sourceforge.net/
http://www.cheetahtemplate.org/

( God knows why they went with a syntax almost but not quite exactly
like velocity, but it is still pretty nice stuff )
 
> +1 for python as a replacement for Perl scripts
> -0 for python as a replacement for Servlets
> 
> =)
> 
> -jon (who thinks Daniel is bitten by the python bug =) )
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 



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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, "Daniel Rall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a
> clever balance between the two.

Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets.

http://www.modpython.org/live/mod_python-2.7.8/doc-html/tut-pub.html

Notice the HTML embedded in the .py file? There really isn't anything
different between that and a servlet and isn't python slower than Java
anyway? So, now we just go down the path of re-implementing everything we
have spent years implementing in Java...I don't see the gain.

+1 for python as a replacement for Perl scripts
-0 for python as a replacement for Servlets

=)

-jon (who thinks Daniel is bitten by the python bug =) )


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RE: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Nick Chalko]

> -Original Message-
> From: Rich Persaud [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
> 
> Preferred pain is a known pain with an experience-based cap.
> 
> New and improved pain may promise an average POI 
> (Pain-on-Investment) that 
> is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with 
> unknown maximum pain.
> 
> If your previous experience confirms that max(NewPain) <= 
> max(OldPain), 
> then go ahead and implement NewPain, but make it look like 
> OldPain.  If 
> max(NewPain) turns out to be >> max(OldPain), you're on the 
> hook.  But you 
> would have first hand experience to make the call, whereas 
> your boss (and 
> definitely his boss) would not (or they wouldn't object in the first 
> place).
> 
> One successful implementation of NewPain where max(NewPain) <= 
> max(OldPain), while delivering promised improvements, will 
> set a precedent. 
>  But someone has to take the risk.  And it won't be people 
> twice-removed 
> from the pain.
> 
> ...  in my (painful) experience.


Here is the short answer.
Always say "Boss I think this will take a little refactoring of some code.
I should be able to reuse the most of the code.  
I will only change what has to changed, and I will make sure that the
changes are isolated."

Then do you whatever it takes, including throwing out ALL THE OLD CODE.

It's your reputation regardless.  You will not be able to say "My manager
wouldn't let me do it right"
They will always say "If you knew it was the wrong approach, you should have
come to me so we can discuss it with your manager.

R,
Nick

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Re: Bug handling survey - Tree based models

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I answered the first two or three of these that was sent to me (student
studies)...  But they seem to be blooming rapidly.  One could
hypothesize through the use of some kind of mathematical model that 
if one continues to participate they will increase exponentially and
eventually one will answer surveys with all of the time they would spend
actually participating in open source software projects.

We should round these kids up and get them to maybe create a student
survey information site.  They could do it as their own opensource
project and then collect the data they need from themselves ;-)

-Andy

On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 10:38, Gunes Koru wrote:
> 
> Hello Jakarta contributors,
> 
> I am conducting a survey about the way bugs are handled in open source
> software projects. The survey includes questions that can be answered by
> developers,testers, bug fixers, project managers, and owners of defect
> databases. It is only and only for research purposes and it is very easy
> to fill out. It consists of three short sections which can be completed at
> once or in different sessions. Please fill it out if you haven't done yet.
> You will find the questions interesting since there is a reason behind
> each one one of them. They will make you think about how things work (or
> could work)in your project. The survey can be found in the address:
> 
> http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/dhsurvey.html
> 
> The data in the bug databases can be used to identify the high risk areas
> in the software development. One of the ways of doing it is constructing
> tree-based models, which could be very useful in open source projects. If
> you would like to read about it, I prepared a web page for you:
> 
> http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.html
> 
> Please accept my apologies if you receive duplicates of this e-mail. This
> is a survey, which will give useful results for all of us. I will try to
> prepare and make some preliminary results on-line within the next two
> weeks. Since this is a survey, covering many important open source
> projects, it will be interesting for everybody to see what kind of quality
> assurance work is going on in the other projects. As always, we are very
> dedicated to this research. Please contact me for any question you might
> have.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> A. Gunes Koru
> http://www.engr.smu.edu/~gkoru
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
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a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: Bug handling survey - Tree based models

[Brian Ewins]

The big image in Gunes' description is wrongly linked to: 
file:///home/gkoru/tbdm1.jpg
you can find it at:  http://engr.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.jpg

Gunes Koru wrote:

>Hello Jakarta contributors,
>
>I am conducting a survey about the way bugs are handled in open source
>software projects. The survey includes questions that can be answered by
>developers,testers, bug fixers, project managers, and owners of defect
>databases. It is only and only for research purposes and it is very easy
>to fill out. It consists of three short sections which can be completed at
>once or in different sessions. Please fill it out if you haven't done yet.
>You will find the questions interesting since there is a reason behind
>each one one of them. They will make you think about how things work (or
>could work)in your project. The survey can be found in the address:
>
>http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/dhsurvey.html
>
>The data in the bug databases can be used to identify the high risk areas
>in the software development. One of the ways of doing it is constructing
>tree-based models, which could be very useful in open source projects. If
>you would like to read about it, I prepared a web page for you:
>
>http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.html
>
>Please accept my apologies if you receive duplicates of this e-mail. This
>is a survey, which will give useful results for all of us. I will try to
>prepare and make some preliminary results on-line within the next two
>weeks. Since this is a survey, covering many important open source
>projects, it will be interesting for everybody to see what kind of quality
>assurance work is going on in the other projects. As always, we are very
>dedicated to this research. Please contact me for any question you might
>have.
>
>Thank you,
>
>A. Gunes Koru
>http://www.engr.smu.edu/~gkoru
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>
>  
>



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Bug handling survey - Tree based models

[Gunes Koru]

Hello Jakarta contributors,

I am conducting a survey about the way bugs are handled in open source
software projects. The survey includes questions that can be answered by
developers,testers, bug fixers, project managers, and owners of defect
databases. It is only and only for research purposes and it is very easy
to fill out. It consists of three short sections which can be completed at
once or in different sessions. Please fill it out if you haven't done yet.
You will find the questions interesting since there is a reason behind
each one one of them. They will make you think about how things work (or
could work)in your project. The survey can be found in the address:

http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/dhsurvey.html

The data in the bug databases can be used to identify the high risk areas
in the software development. One of the ways of doing it is constructing
tree-based models, which could be very useful in open source projects. If
you would like to read about it, I prepared a web page for you:

http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.html

Please accept my apologies if you receive duplicates of this e-mail. This
is a survey, which will give useful results for all of us. I will try to
prepare and make some preliminary results on-line within the next two
weeks. Since this is a survey, covering many important open source
projects, it will be interesting for everybody to see what kind of quality
assurance work is going on in the other projects. As always, we are very
dedicated to this research. Please contact me for any question you might
have.

Thank you,

A. Gunes Koru
http://www.engr.smu.edu/~gkoru

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Re: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I knew that was coming.  

-dysfunctional Andy

On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 03:36, Bill Barker wrote:
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Rich Persaud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM
> Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
> 
> 
> > New and improved pain may promise an average POI (Pain-on-Investment) that
> > is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with
> > unknown maximum pain.
> 
> Now we finally know what the POI developers were thinking. ;-)
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Cool!  I'm impressed!  I'll have to check that out.

On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 20:12, Daniel Rall wrote:
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Even if it ties me to an Apache-proprietary template language, trading
> > that for something less disgusting than JSP seems preferable. 
> 
> Note that Velocity actually implements a documented specification
> which any vender can pick up create their own implementation of.
> -- 
> 
> Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[Bill Barker]

- Original Message -
From: "Rich Persaud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM
Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???


> New and improved pain may promise an average POI (Pain-on-Investment) that
> is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with
> unknown maximum pain.

Now we finally know what the POI developers were thinking. ;-)


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