Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Jon Stevens]

on 12/6/01 2:05 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never
>> written a real webapp with it.
>> 
>> Lemmings!
> 
> Isn't the JDK 1.4's logging API story similar?
> 
> The guys did not pay that much attention to Ceki's remarks, did they?
> And in terms of logging-in-Java, Ceki is THE authority, isn't he?
> =:o/

Lemmings like to follow patterns.

-jon


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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never
> written a real webapp with it.
> 
> Lemmings!

Isn't the JDK 1.4's logging API story similar?

The guys did not pay that much attention to Ceki's remarks, did they? 
And in terms of logging-in-Java, Ceki is THE authority, isn't he?
=:o/


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:38 PM
> 
> 
> on 12/5/01 11:27 PM, "Jeff Schnitzer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > As a case in point, I would like to point out EJB CMP as an example of
> > "design-driven" technology which may very well look really stupid in
> > another few years, especially given its atrociously slow mutation rate.
> > If anyone who was writing this crap (the spec) was actually *using* it,
> > it would probably allow for automatic generation of freaking primary
> > keys...
> > 
> > Jeff Schnitzer
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> The same can be said of JSP.
> 
> Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never
> written a real webapp with it.
> 
> Lemmings!
> 
> -jon


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Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Jon Stevens]

on 12/5/01 11:27 PM, "Jeff Schnitzer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As a case in point, I would like to point out EJB CMP as an example of
> "design-driven" technology which may very well look really stupid in
> another few years, especially given its atrociously slow mutation rate.
> If anyone who was writing this crap (the spec) was actually *using* it,
> it would probably allow for automatic generation of freaking primary
> keys...
> 
> Jeff Schnitzer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The same can be said of JSP.

Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never
written a real webapp with it.

Lemmings!

-jon


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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Jeff Schnitzer]

There seems to be some debate about whether or not that is really the
case.  At least it has Richard Monson-Haefel (the author of the O'Reilly
EJB book) and Floyd Marinescu (from TheServerSide.com) confused, from
this post to ejb-interest a couple months ago:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ejb-interest@java.sun.com/msg19000.html

My take:

While section 10.5.2 maked it look like you can leave the PK unset in
ejbCreate and the container will automatically generate a key for you,
the spec doesn't (that I could find) explicitly specify anywhere that
this is in fact the case.  The wording of section 10.5.2 could be
explained by the use of deferred key types, which could conceivably
provide an akward way of making autogenerated PKs, but only in wholly
container-dependent manner.  In the 1.1 spec, it was necessary to set
the PK explicitly in ejbCreate, so some explanation would seem to be in
order... blah.

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> -Original Message-
> From: Richard Kirby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:54 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds
> 
> 
> EJB2 does allow for automatic generation of "freaking primary 
> keys" - unless
> I misunderstood you. Thats one of the points of having ejbCreate and
> ejbPostCreate. Mind you, I personally feel that Torque offers 
> far more than
> EJB, if you are building from scratch and don't have legacy systems.
> 
> Richard
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: 06 December 2001 07:28
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds
> >
> 
> > As a case in point, I would like to point out EJB CMP as an 
> example of
> > "design-driven" technology which may very well look really stupid in
> > another few years, especially given its atrociously slow 
> mutation rate.
> > If anyone who was writing this crap (the spec) was actually 
> *using* it,
> > it would probably allow for automatic generation of freaking primary
> > keys...
> >
> > Jeff Schnitzer
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Richard Kirby]

EJB2 does allow for automatic generation of "freaking primary keys" - unless
I misunderstood you. Thats one of the points of having ejbCreate and
ejbPostCreate. Mind you, I personally feel that Torque offers far more than
EJB, if you are building from scratch and don't have legacy systems.

Richard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 06 December 2001 07:28
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds
>

> As a case in point, I would like to point out EJB CMP as an example of
> "design-driven" technology which may very well look really stupid in
> another few years, especially given its atrociously slow mutation rate.
> If anyone who was writing this crap (the spec) was actually *using* it,
> it would probably allow for automatic generation of freaking primary
> keys...
>
> Jeff Schnitzer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Jeff Schnitzer]

And for an example of a dead company whose products are gone too, how
about Ashton-Tate (anyone remember dBase?).

I liked Linus' comments.  They essentially echo the arguments for XP,
that software should be evolved rather than Designed (captial-D).  Even
though he was (apparently) talking about Solaris when critisizing Sun,
the same argument indicts the acolytes of the Java Community Process as
well.

As a case in point, I would like to point out EJB CMP as an example of
"design-driven" technology which may very well look really stupid in
another few years, especially given its atrociously slow mutation rate.
If anyone who was writing this crap (the spec) was actually *using* it,
it would probably allow for automatic generation of freaking primary
keys...

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> -Original Message-
> From: Neville Burnell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:22 PM
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds
> 
> 
> their products are still around, still evolving, but those 
> corporations
> are long gone
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, 4 December 2001 10:55 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds
> 
> 
> Neville Burnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > anyone remember Lotus Developments and WordPerfect Corporation ...
> they had
> > billions in the bank too
> 
> 
> Lotus == IBM
> WordPerfect == Corel.
> 
> Still around... just different names :)
> 
> -- 
> Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
>  Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
> Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - 
> http://relativity.yi.org/
> 
> Yoink dot adios backslash loosers!
> 
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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Neville Burnell]

their products are still around, still evolving, but those corporations
are long gone

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, 4 December 2001 10:55 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds


Neville Burnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> anyone remember Lotus Developments and WordPerfect Corporation ...
they had
> billions in the bank too


Lotus == IBM
WordPerfect == Corel.

Still around... just different names :)

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] )
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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[GOMEZ Henri]

What about Prime, Control Data or even DEC ?)


>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 12:55 AM
>To: Jakarta General List
>Subject: Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds
>
>
>Neville Burnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> anyone remember Lotus Developments and WordPerfect 
>Corporation ... they had
>> billions in the bank too
>
>
>Lotus == IBM
>WordPerfect == Corel.
>
>Still around... just different names :)
>
>-- 
>Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] )
> Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
>Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - 
>http://relativity.yi.org/
>
>Yoink dot adios backslash loosers!
>
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Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Kevin A. Burton]

Neville Burnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> anyone remember Lotus Developments and WordPerfect Corporation ... they had
> billions in the bank too


Lotus == IBM
WordPerfect == Corel.

Still around... just different names :)

-- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[GOMEZ Henri]

>>And before last month, Enron seemed to be doing ok :)
>>
>yes, and unforgotten Commodore (Amiga,C64,...)


yes, yes, I started computer with a Commodore Vic 20, 
a good old 6502 system with 3,5K of RAM :)

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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Gerhard Froehlich]

>From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
>
>On 12/2/01 10:40 PM, "Neville Burnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>> anyone remember Lotus Developments and WordPerfect Corporation ... they
>> had billions in the bank too
>> 
>
>And before last month, Enron seemed to be doing ok :)
>
yes, and unforgotten Commodore (Amiga,C64,...)

Cheers
Gerhard
 
-
Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
-



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Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 12/2/01 10:40 PM, "Neville Burnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> anyone remember Lotus Developments and WordPerfect Corporation ... they
> had billions in the bank too
> 

And before last month, Enron seemed to be doing ok :)

> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, 3 December 2001 11:46 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds
> 
> 
> Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> 
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2361245693d&hl=en&selm=linux.ker
> nel.
>> Pine.LNX.4.33.0111301643170.1224-10%40penguin.transmeta.com>
>> 
>> I wonder why he says Sun is doomed.
> 
> I always wonder how people can say any of these companies are doomed.
> They have
> billions in the bank.
> 
> It would take years and years and years of stupidity to drain this money
> down to
> 0.
> 
> SUN, Microsoft, Oracle.  They are not going anywhere.  They will just
> change
> their strategy.
> 
> ... then again you should never underestimate the power of stupidity :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...


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RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Neville Burnell]

anyone remember Lotus Developments and WordPerfect Corporation ... they
had billions in the bank too


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, 3 December 2001 11:46 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds


Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>
<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2361245693d&hl=en&selm=linux.ker
nel.
> Pine.LNX.4.33.0111301643170.1224-10%40penguin.transmeta.com>
> 
> I wonder why he says Sun is doomed.

I always wonder how people can say any of these companies are doomed.
They have
billions in the bank.

It would take years and years and years of stupidity to drain this money
down to
0.

SUN, Microsoft, Oracle.  They are not going anywhere.  They will just
change
their strategy.

... then again you should never underestimate the power of stupidity :)

-- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

Stuff to read:
<http://www.toad.com/gnu/whatswrong.html>
  What's Wrong with Copy Protection, by John Gilmore

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Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Kevin A. Burton]

Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>  Pine.LNX.4.33.0111301643170.1224-10%40penguin.transmeta.com>
> 
> I wonder why he says Sun is doomed.

I always wonder how people can say any of these companies are doomed.  They have
billions in the bank.

It would take years and years and years of stupidity to drain this money down to
0.

SUN, Microsoft, Oracle.  They are not going anywhere.  They will just change
their strategy.

... then again you should never underestimate the power of stupidity :)

-- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

Stuff to read:

  What's Wrong with Copy Protection, by John Gilmore

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Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

[Kurt Schrader]

The article at http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 shows much of 
this thread, including why Linus thinks Sun is doomed.

Kurt

On Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 02:39 PM, Jon Stevens wrote:

>  Pine.LNX.4.33.0111301643170.1224-10%40penguin.transmeta.com>
>
> I wonder why he says Sun is doomed.
>
> -jon
>
>
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