Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-07-11 Thread Jesse Kuhnert

But testing ~is~ fun when you know from experience how much time it is
saving you. (sort of...as fun as programming can be right? who said we
weren't robots ? ;) )

On 7/11/06, Han ChuanBing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


It's very hard to have fun with testing, especially when a job shall be
repeated again and again.
Maybe a robot can do that when there is a standard.


On 7/11/06, Roland Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Jesse Kuhnert wrote:
> > "The Rack" conjures up images having nothing to do with torture for
me.
> > (probably because I'm such a filthy animal) ;)
>
> I guess software quality would be much higher
> if more people had *fun* with testing... ;-)
>
> cheers,
> Roland
>
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Jesse Kuhnert
Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer

Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind.


Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-07-11 Thread Han ChuanBing

It's very hard to have fun with testing, especially when a job shall be
repeated again and again.
Maybe a robot can do that when there is a standard.


On 7/11/06, Roland Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Jesse Kuhnert wrote:
> "The Rack" conjures up images having nothing to do with torture for me.
> (probably because I'm such a filthy animal) ;)

I guess software quality would be much higher
if more people had *fun* with testing... ;-)

cheers,
Roland

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-07-11 Thread Roland Weber
Jesse Kuhnert wrote:
> "The Rack" conjures up images having nothing to do with torture for me.
> (probably because I'm such a filthy animal) ;)

I guess software quality would be much higher
if more people had *fun* with testing... ;-)

cheers,
  Roland

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-07-10 Thread Henri Yandell



On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Henri Yandell wrote:

There's a security related one in front of the board this month, which has 
much of the same issues as the testing one so (I reckon) that'll be just as 
educational as pushing the current testing thoughts to the board.


This resolution was passed, but it ended up just being the promotion of 
the XML Security subproject to TLP (as Santuario). XML's slowly breaking 
up as a TLP, so this was a natural continuation of that.


Hen

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-07-10 Thread Jesse Kuhnert

"The Rack" conjures up images having nothing to do with torture for me.
(probably because I'm such a filthy animal) ;)

On 7/10/06, Roland Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi folks,

what has happened to this thread? Ever since Henri wrote that
it's heading in the right direction, it seems to be dead. Bad
beer chitchat hangover? Summer break? Everyone busy watching
soccer? Or were my last suggestions so far off that they don't
even deserve a response?

Just to get discussion starting again, here is yet another
alternative name suggestion:

 "The Rack"

in reminiscence of a 70s british TV series :-)
http://www.personal.u-net.com/~carnfort/Professionals/b02.htm

cheers,
  Roland

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--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer

Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind.


Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-07-10 Thread Roland Weber
Hi folks,

what has happened to this thread? Ever since Henri wrote that
it's heading in the right direction, it seems to be dead. Bad
beer chitchat hangover? Summer break? Everyone busy watching
soccer? Or were my last suggestions so far off that they don't
even deserve a response?

Just to get discussion starting again, here is yet another
alternative name suggestion:

 "The Rack"

in reminiscence of a 70s british TV series :-)
http://www.personal.u-net.com/~carnfort/Professionals/b02.htm

cheers,
  Roland

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-27 Thread Henri Yandell


Very good thread that I think is heading in the right direction. My 
thinking is that it should continue for the next month and be put in front 
of the board then if it has reached a good state.


There's a security related one in front of the board this month, which has 
much of the same issues as the testing one so (I reckon) that'll be just 
as educational as pushing the current testing thoughts to the board.


Hen

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-24 Thread Roland Weber
Hi all,

Felipe Leme wrote:

> 1.What should it be named ?
> 2.What exactly do these 2 projects have in common so they can be
> grouped together?
> 3.Could the TLP accept more projects? What's the criteria?

I suggest we add "runtime testing" to the list of criteria.
I guess it's one of those implicit assumptions we've been making,
but it really should be pointed out. It reduces the scope by
eliminating projects or products like:

Gump - build time testing
Clover - requires static code analysis to determine test coverage
Quality Assurance stuff - something that runs statistics on issues
   opened or closed resulting from manually executing test cases

Those are examples for things "related to testing" that are probably
not meant to be in the scope of the currently discussed new project.
If I am not mistaken, both Cactus and JMeter are executing test cases
at runtime, collecting data without instrumentation of byte code or
JVM plugins. By restricting the scope to this kind of testing stuff,
we should be able to alleviate some concerns about over-broadness.

cheers,
  Roland

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-23 Thread Roland Weber
Hi Felipe,

I fully agree with you.

> So, let's say we decide to promote Cactus+JMeter to a TLP
> of their own, but not the broad "testing.apache.org"; I have 3
> questions:
> 
> 1.What should it be named ?
> 2.What exactly do these 2 projects have in common so they can be
> grouped together?
> 3.Could the TLP accept more projects? What's the criteria?
> 
> Here are my preliminary answers:
> 
> 2.This is the crucial point and ca be the guide for 1 and 3. Consider
> the project originated from Jakarta, whose roots come from the Java in
> the server side, we could work on something related to "Java EE
> Testing" or "Server-side Java Testing".

Java + (focus on) server-side should also allow for the testing
related artifacts from Struts and Tomcat mentioned as candidates:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=115047715227445&w=2

I'm not sure whether server-side should be tied to J2EE though.
Maybe the project description should state that it does not claim
exclusiveness within it's scope, just to be sure. After all, it is
still an effort to create a home for several related projects, and
not an attempt to find a solution for a specific technical problem.

> 1.I'm too bad on naming (JCacter? MetrusJ? :-).

Scrutiny? Ordeal?

> 3.My guess is that once 2 is answered, we would have a criteria for
> letting new projects be incorporated to the TLP.
> 
> 
>> Roy Fielding on 6/22:
> 
> 
>> A federation is simply an umbrella project with no significant
>> responsibilities of its own -- all of its projects report directly
>> to the board and simply view the federation as a communal thing.
>> I think XML and Jakarta should already fall into that category.
>> Starting one is just like starting a project, except that the
>> purpose is limited to community/commons like things and not actual
>> products. "
> 
> Please forgive my ignorance, but I didn't understand this conclusion:
> does it means we could have testing as a 'federation TLP'? Os does the
> federation concept would apply to the Cactus+JMeter project?

The former, I guess. "no significant responsibilities" means that
kind of project should not release code itself, the way I read it.

cheers,
  Roland

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-23 Thread Felipe Leme

Hi Phil,

On 6/23/06, Phil Steitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


With his permission, I am forwarding an excerpt from a recent post from
Roy Fielding, in response to questions about a proposed "Security" TLP
originating out of the XML project.   The concerns he raises below all
pretty much apply directly to Testing.


That post pretty much explain the umbrella issue; it would be nice to
have it somewhere on Apache's site, so it can be used in other
situations.


Could be the right approach here is to limit it to Cactus + Jmeter, or even have
them each TLP separtately.


That was Hen's original idea, but it faded away as these projects
didn't feel confident enough to have a TLP of their own (for instance,
I'm pretty much the only active Cactus committer right now, and not
that active; JMeter is being more active commmitter-wide, but they
were not willing to be TLPed alone). OTOH, we had drawn the attention
of more people - many of them current Jakarta PMC members, like Rahul,
Dion and Yoav - once we pushed the testing TLP, so maybe the
JMeter+Cactus TLP could be doable now, although it still requires some
decisions/definitions (see below).


I think the key is really point 1. above as well as Roy's argument below about 
not
claiming dominion over a topical area.


Ok, I agree. So, let's say we decide to promote Cactus+JMeter to a TLP
of their own, but not the broad "testing.apache.org"; I have 3
questions:

1.What should it be named ?
2.What exactly do these 2 projects have in common so they can be
grouped together?
3.Could the TLP accept more projects? What's the criteria?

Here are my preliminary answers:

2.This is the crucial point and ca be the guide for 1 and 3. Consider
the project originated from Jakarta, whose roots come from the Java in
the server side, we could work on something related to "Java EE
Testing" or "Server-side Java Testing".
1.I'm too bad on naming (JCacter? MetrusJ? :-).
3.My guess is that once 2 is answered, we would have a criteria for
letting new projects be incorporated to the TLP.



Roy Fielding on 6/22:



A federation is simply an umbrella project with no significant
responsibilities of its own -- all of its projects report directly
to the board and simply view the federation as a communal thing.
I think XML and Jakarta should already fall into that category.
Starting one is just like starting a project, except that the
purpose is limited to community/commons like things and not actual
products. "


Please forgive my ignorance, but I didn't understand this conclusion:
does it means we could have testing as a 'federation TLP'? Os does the
federation concept would apply to the Cactus+JMeter project?

[]s,

-- Felipe

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-23 Thread Phil Steitz
Rahul Akolkar wrote:
> On 6/20/06, Phil Steitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Rahul Akolkar wrote:
>> > On 6/16/06, Felipe Leme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > 
>> >>
>> >> I think these statements are a good start for the next meeting's
>> >> proposal - could someone write an wiki entry for it (or even update
>> >> the current resolution)? I'm traveling until Sunday and my internet
>> >> connection is pretty bad here, so it would be hard for me to do it...
>> >>
>> > 
>> >
>> > Thanks for putting it all together as a summary, I've put the closing
>> > statements from that email, verbatim, on a wiki page [1]. Its open to
>> > edits (I might make some minor edits myself in a day or two).
>> This is good.  Here are a few additional things that we might want to
>> think about adding, assuming all are OK with these commitments.
> 
>
> This (below) is generally in line with my expectations of how things
> should work, and aligned to what we've said previously in these
> threads, IMO.
>
> Ideally, there'd be a mechanism to get some feedback, even in your
> absence (thanks for volunteering though).
>
> -Rahul
>
>
>>  This
>> list is designed to address some of the concerns that have been raised
>> in the past about umbrella projects.  Obviously, not all may agree with
>> the points below, and even with these provisions, the board may not
>> approve the Testing proposal.  I just thought it would be a good idea to
>> get these ideas out for discussion for this and the other
>> "umbrella-like" things that we may be splitting Jakarta into.
>>
>> 1.  The PMC members named in the proposal are signing up to provide
>> oversight for the *entire project*, not just "subprojects" that they
>> participate in.  In fact, there are formally no subprojects, just
>> products or code bases that are versioned / released separately.   I
>> would recommend that we avoid the use of the term "project" other than
>> for the TLP itself and avoid "subproject" altogether.
>> 2.  As new components are incorporated, the PMC will grow and will
>> always include the (the majority of) active committers working on each
>> of the components.  Ability to make decisions on behalf of the whole
>> project will be considered when granting commit access.
>> 3.  A necessary condition for adoption of a codebase or creation of a
>> new component will be commitment from a minimum of 3 PMC members
>> (possibly existing ASF committers, joining with the codebase) agreeing
>> to review / apply patches, review commits, serve as RM, etc. for the new
>> component.
>> 4.  If one or more of the components, or the entire project, grows in
>> complexity or community size  to
>> the point where effective oversight / active involvement by the Testing
>> PMC on all components is no longer possible, the project will be split
>> (just as Jakarta is being split now, per this proposal).  Note that this
>> is a statement of intent, not an administrative mandate (i.e., the
>> somewhat painful, consensus-driven process that we are following now in
>> Jakarta is our *intention* to improve and maintain).
>> 5.  Inactive components, or components without a sufficient number of
>> active PMC members, will be regularly archived.
>>
>> One more personal thing:
>>
>> I just learned that the board meeting has been postponed until next
>> Tuesday.  Unfortunately, I will not able to attend that day.  Therefore,
>> it would be great if one of the other members supporting this proposal
>> could step up to attend.
>>
>> Phil
With his permission, I am forwarding an excerpt from a recent post from
Roy Fielding, in response to questions about a proposed "Security" TLP
originating out of the XML project.   The concerns he raises below all
pretty much apply directly to Testing.  Could be the right approach here
is to limit it to Cactus + Jmeter, or even have them each TLP
separtately.  I think the key is really point 1. above as well as Roy's
argument below about not claiming dominion over a topical area.

Roy Fielding on 6/22:

"When a project "owns" a category, such as security, the participants
think that they are responsible for all Apache products in that space.
Meanwhile, what they are actually working on is a fairly small project
that addresses the specific requirements of a given set of users, such
as xml-security.  People don't try to make products that are applicable
to every possible consumer in a given category, and volunteers cannot
oversee projects in which they do not actually participate.  What is
left is either a single project that rejects all new target audiences
or an umbrella project that creates an artificial barrier to oversight.

There is no way to broaden the perspective of a project -- people
simply don't wake up one day and discover a need to be aware of
everyone else's work in similar projects, and most people don't
have the bandwidth to do so anyway.  That is why each project has
to be self-governed.

When someone else comes along and says an obvious thing like
"XML 

Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-20 Thread Rahul Akolkar

On 6/20/06, Phil Steitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Rahul Akolkar wrote:
> On 6/16/06, Felipe Leme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>
>> I think these statements are a good start for the next meeting's
>> proposal - could someone write an wiki entry for it (or even update
>> the current resolution)? I'm traveling until Sunday and my internet
>> connection is pretty bad here, so it would be hard for me to do it...
>>
> 
>
> Thanks for putting it all together as a summary, I've put the closing
> statements from that email, verbatim, on a wiki page [1]. Its open to
> edits (I might make some minor edits myself in a day or two).
This is good.  Here are a few additional things that we might want to
think about adding, assuming all are OK with these commitments.



This (below) is generally in line with my expectations of how things
should work, and aligned to what we've said previously in these
threads, IMO.

Ideally, there'd be a mechanism to get some feedback, even in your
absence (thanks for volunteering though).

-Rahul



 This
list is designed to address some of the concerns that have been raised
in the past about umbrella projects.  Obviously, not all may agree with
the points below, and even with these provisions, the board may not
approve the Testing proposal.  I just thought it would be a good idea to
get these ideas out for discussion for this and the other
"umbrella-like" things that we may be splitting Jakarta into.

1.  The PMC members named in the proposal are signing up to provide
oversight for the *entire project*, not just "subprojects" that they
participate in.  In fact, there are formally no subprojects, just
products or code bases that are versioned / released separately.   I
would recommend that we avoid the use of the term "project" other than
for the TLP itself and avoid "subproject" altogether.
2.  As new components are incorporated, the PMC will grow and will
always include the (the majority of) active committers working on each
of the components.  Ability to make decisions on behalf of the whole
project will be considered when granting commit access.
3.  A necessary condition for adoption of a codebase or creation of a
new component will be commitment from a minimum of 3 PMC members
(possibly existing ASF committers, joining with the codebase) agreeing
to review / apply patches, review commits, serve as RM, etc. for the new
component.
4.  If one or more of the components, or the entire project, grows in
complexity or community size  to
the point where effective oversight / active involvement by the Testing
PMC on all components is no longer possible, the project will be split
(just as Jakarta is being split now, per this proposal).  Note that this
is a statement of intent, not an administrative mandate (i.e., the
somewhat painful, consensus-driven process that we are following now in
Jakarta is our *intention* to improve and maintain).
5.  Inactive components, or components without a sufficient number of
active PMC members, will be regularly archived.

One more personal thing:

I just learned that the board meeting has been postponed until next
Tuesday.  Unfortunately, I will not able to attend that day.  Therefore,
it would be great if one of the other members supporting this proposal
could step up to attend.

Phil



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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-20 Thread Phil Steitz
Rahul Akolkar wrote:
> On 6/16/06, Felipe Leme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>
>> I think these statements are a good start for the next meeting's
>> proposal - could someone write an wiki entry for it (or even update
>> the current resolution)? I'm traveling until Sunday and my internet
>> connection is pretty bad here, so it would be hard for me to do it...
>>
> 
>
> Thanks for putting it all together as a summary, I've put the closing
> statements from that email, verbatim, on a wiki page [1]. Its open to
> edits (I might make some minor edits myself in a day or two).
This is good.  Here are a few additional things that we might want to
think about adding, assuming all are OK with these commitments.   This
list is designed to address some of the concerns that have been raised
in the past about umbrella projects.  Obviously, not all may agree with
the points below, and even with these provisions, the board may not
approve the Testing proposal.  I just thought it would be a good idea to
get these ideas out for discussion for this and the other
"umbrella-like" things that we may be splitting Jakarta into.

1.  The PMC members named in the proposal are signing up to provide
oversight for the *entire project*, not just "subprojects" that they
participate in.  In fact, there are formally no subprojects, just
products or code bases that are versioned / released separately.   I
would recommend that we avoid the use of the term "project" other than
for the TLP itself and avoid "subproject" altogether.
2.  As new components are incorporated, the PMC will grow and will
always include the (the majority of) active committers working on each
of the components.  Ability to make decisions on behalf of the whole
project will be considered when granting commit access.
3.  A necessary condition for adoption of a codebase or creation of a
new component will be commitment from a minimum of 3 PMC members
(possibly existing ASF committers, joining with the codebase) agreeing
to review / apply patches, review commits, serve as RM, etc. for the new
component. 
4.  If one or more of the components, or the entire project, grows in
complexity or community size  to
the point where effective oversight / active involvement by the Testing
PMC on all components is no longer possible, the project will be split
(just as Jakarta is being split now, per this proposal).  Note that this
is a statement of intent, not an administrative mandate (i.e., the
somewhat painful, consensus-driven process that we are following now in
Jakarta is our *intention* to improve and maintain). 
5.  Inactive components, or components without a sufficient number of
active PMC members, will be regularly archived.

One more personal thing:

I just learned that the board meeting has been postponed until next
Tuesday.  Unfortunately, I will not able to attend that day.  Therefore,
it would be great if one of the other members supporting this proposal
could step up to attend. 

Phil

 


 

 

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Re: testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-18 Thread Rahul Akolkar

On 6/16/06, Felipe Leme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I think these statements are a good start for the next meeting's
proposal - could someone write an wiki entry for it (or even update
the current resolution)? I'm traveling until Sunday and my internet
connection is pretty bad here, so it would be hard for me to do it...




Thanks for putting it all together as a summary, I've put the closing
statements from that email, verbatim, on a wiki page [1]. Its open to
edits (I might make some minor edits myself in a day or two).

-Rahul

[1] http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/TLPCactusAndJMeter/Notes




[]s,

-- Felipe



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testing.apache.org, take 2

2006-06-16 Thread Felipe Leme

Hi all,

Sorry for being quiet so far regarding this issue, but I've been too
busy with other real-life subjects (besides, it's World Cup time :-).

Anyway, I've read all messages and will try to write a 'condensed'
reply of all pertinent issues, plus a couple of statements summarizing
them. As such, it's going to be a long email - so, if you don't have
the patience to read all replies (I wouldn't :-), jump straight to the
end...


On Jun 6, 2006, at 6:13 PM, Rahul Akolkar wrote:
Yup, there clearly is developer/community interest towards the
formation of this project.

I second Rahul's comment here. In fact, the proposal started as an
effort from Hen to emancipate some projects (Cactus and JMeter) out of
Jakarta, but there are many other projects interested to join the new
TLP (I will talk more about those projects later).

Plus, there is a chance to rejuvenate some existing projects by sheer
proximity to newer projects with active developers (amongst other
things).

This is another good point: one motivation for the TLP is to bring
momentum back to some dormant projects (like Cactus). I'm aware this
motivation could be dangerous (we could, for instance, end up with a
dormant TLP, which is worse than a dormant sub-project), but I'm still
confident it's worth a try.

Per the umbrella concern, the question then becomes what -- if any --
are the mitigating factors that can address such a concern with
regards to this proposal.

Ok, that makes sense: such mitigating factors should be on our
proposal for the next meeting (I will bring them back after the
replies).

On Jun 6, 2006, at 9:47 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
It's more in our court to come up with something to convince them I think.

Ok, let's try to come out with concrete arguments for the next meeting.

Mostly I think we need to detail the cross-ASF interest in the idea.
Otherwise Jakarta Test

Ok again, let's do that. So far, I can list the following:

- Struts developed some testing artifacts also used by MyFaces
- WebWork - which has 'merged' into Struts - seems to have some
testing stuff which could be migrated to the TLP
- Cactus is (I believed) used by other JavaEE related projects (like
Geromino and Struts)
- we (Rahul and I) have been contacted in private by committers of
other ASF projects (like Tomcat and Struts) willing to donate some
code to the new TLP
- as mentioned in previous messages, there are many other examples of
testing artifacts spread across ASF projects that could be migrated
into the new TLP. Of course, each case should be analyzed in
particular, as not all of then might be suitable for the TLP, but the
point is that we have a 'market' for the TLP.

On Jun 9, 2006, at 2:50 AM, Phil Steitz wrote:
I would also like to understand exactly what the problem is

I think the problem is the fear that the TLP, as an umbrella project,
grows up in an unorganized way and becomes more of a problem than a
solution.

and what mitigating steps may be possible.

One such step is to have well defined rules on how an existing project
would be accepted in the TLP. For instance, the proponent should
'prove' that the new project would aggregate value to the TLP, either
technically and/or by bringing 'development momentum'.

Another step (related with the previous one) is to define the
incubation/sandbox mechanism for such new projects in a way a little
bit more rigid than the regular incubation process.

In particular, I would very much appreciate a definition of "umbrella"
that allows Geronimo, Logging, Jakarta Commons, DB, XML, Web Services
and Struts,  but somehow
disallows Testing.

As others have already pointed out (sorry again for the delay on the
reply :-), that definition is not a consensus. Anyway, I think
Geronimo and Struts could be risked off the umbrella moniker, as they
are focused in a concrete product and not on a generic concept (like
the others). Besides, Jakarta Commons - which is the most
'problematic' umbrella, as it's very broad - is not an TLP, but a
Jakarta sub-project (well, that's another issue...).


On Jun 9, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Jesse Kuhnert wrote:
It makes sense that people want to be careful about a tl subdomain. Some of
the projects you mentioned are fairly staple diets to a good majority of
development projects. (ie struts/logging/xml/commons/etc) .

Yes, that's sort of what I meant previously (sorry for the
redundancy). Maybe we (ASF) need a formal definition of what makes a
TLP: for instance, it could be either a major project with some minor
sub-projects (like Struts, Tomcat, Geronimo, Maven, Tapestry, etc..)
or the (in) famous 'umbrella' (like Jakarta, DB, XML, Logging, Commons
and hopefully Testing). In other words, we would be treating the
umbrellas as 'first-class TLPs', and not some sort of 'failed
experiments' (please note that I'm not affirming the aforementioned
projects are failures, much the opposite. It's just a lack of a better
expression :-(

What would go into testing.apache.org? I'm all for it as testin