Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Paweł Hajdan, Jr.]

On 6/17/10 12:47 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> On 06/16/10 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
>> I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules.
> any ideas what could help?

I think the "How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People"
presentation may be helpful here.

Summary:


Video: 

Slides:


Some of the points that I think apply especially to Gentoo would be:

> Attention and focus are scarce resources and you need to protect 
> them.

> Finally, look out for people unwilling to cooperate with others. Be 
> wary of people who complain, but are unwilling to help fix the 
> problem at hand, people who refuse to discuss design and people who 
> cannot take criticism.

> Perfectionists and people obsessed with process can derail forward
> progress (unintentionally).

Paweł



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Paweł Hajdan, Jr.]

On 6/17/10 3:13 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, [...]
> This is very worrying. Such things should never be a silent agreement.
> This needs to be open and transparent. This is policy that needs to be
> explicit.

+100

I think we should pay more attention to documenting important policies.
It just happens too often when people are confused by something, and
then somebody pops up and says "it's obvious, see our unstated policy".

This is not to be understood as an attempt to policy everything. No. I'd
prefer to have less policies, but well documented and agreed on by
everybody.

Paweł



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Nominations are now open

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Ryan Hill  wrote:
> I'd like to nominate betelgeuse, calchan, and ssuominen (no way you're getting
> out of here that easy).

Thanks a lot for your confidence but I'll pass.

Denis.

[gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Duncan]

Sebastian Pipping posted on Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:33:25 +0200 as excerpted:

> On 06/16/10 21:40, Roy Bamford wrote:
>> As a native English speaker (from England) I view Jers reply as terse
>> and to the point, completely lacking in tone.
> 
> interesting.  Looking at the sentence
> 
>   "When did you point this out to devrel?"
> 
> I would like to say that while it's not impolite per se it's implicitly
> saying "You _have to_ point this out to dev rel" in my ears. [...]
> In contrast asking
> 
>   "Have you pointed this out to DevRel?  What was their reaction?"
> 
> does not seem to have this mis-hearing problem, at least not to me.

Thanks for the concrete example, and yes, I agree.

I've become aware of two issues I personally have, in this regard.

1) I (normally) instinctively interpret statements in the positive, 
subconsciously rewriting statements of the first form into the second as I 
read them, because I assume people have the best intentions until it is 
demonstrated otherwise.  Yet this process is not without cost in 
subconscious processing time and thus in stress, and while I couldn't 
point out why without deliberately deconstructing the post as you did, I'm 
left with a vague unease about the post, which only becomes apparent when 
pointed out, as here, or over time, as other posts accumulate and I 
evaluate the poster as less friendly than I might, still without 
consciously understanding why.

You explain my unease.  If I assume others are like me, perhaps I've 
pointed out why they too, wouldn't have pointed to this post as 
unfriendly, yet agree with your point now that you have.

2) I often overcompensate in an attempt to make my point clear, with 
"verbiage out the yin-yang", but in reality, often obscuring it due to 
simple "verbiage overgrowth".  (Point 1 shrunk by more than half after 
four rewrites.)  This exasperates some to the point of killfiling, tho 
I've enough "thanks for the explanation" replies from others over the 
years to know "it's what works" for others.

Some seem to have an instinctive fear of verbiage, contracting 
communications to their most precise possible while retaining literal 
meaning, without understanding the effect this has on implied meaning.  
Thus, example #2 gets contracted into #1, and the more sensitive read into 
it an offense when none was intended.

> I remember a guy of the German Unix User Group (GUUG) saying something
> like
> 
>   "Communication is always oriented at the receiver".

Wise man.

> Applying that to tone and avoiding mis-interpretation the sender has the
> power (and arguably the responsiblity) to sounds as friendly as needed
> to be sure it will not be understood as unfriendly.  In a way there's
> always a way to be friendlier - _without_ faking anything.

But that takes three times the effort and twice the words.  Example #2 
above is, after all, almost twice the size of #1.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

[gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Duncan]

Paweł Hajdan, Jr. posted on Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:39:18 +0200 as excerpted:

> We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the
> Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say "thanks" to
> people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he
> right?

=:^)

Thanks for that encouraging word... to somebody.

Perhaps said leader might be named?  While not publicly naming names on 
the negative side is arguably a good thing, isn't publicly crediting 
people by name for positives like this, when the opportunity arises, part 
of the solution, not the problem?

(Unless there's a specific reason not to, in this case.  A simple "Thanks 
to that unnamed person" statement would then indicate that the name was 
deliberately withheld, while keeping it positive.  IMO, of course.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] toolchain-funcs.eclass: functions to call compiler

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 01:41:00 -0400
Mike Frysinger  wrote:

> there are implicit rules for generating archives, but iirc, they dont
> work in parallel.

The buggy[1] implicit make rule generates parallel calls to ar(1) for
each file to add, instead of doing the obvious and calling ar once with
multiple file arguments. Funny because the fix is probably as easy to
write as the wording in that section of the make manual.


 jer


[1] http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Archive-Pitfalls

Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion related with dropping keywords policy

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:39:01 -0400
Joseph Jezak  wrote:

> Your preferred method is exactly how (as a ppc keyworder) I like to
> see these kind of bugs handled. Dropping keywords makes an awful lot
> more work for us and hurts our users, especially since we're not
> always very prompt at handling bugs.

Well, reasoning for the HPPA team, which maintains an architecture
that is dying rather more quickly than PPC32 (which still has all kinds
of embedded uses and so on),, in favour of IA64, I'd rather see dropped
keywords than new profile entries, possibly with the keyworded ebuilds
being gradually removed after an OK. That way I can make a choice to
keep a package (set) for a bit or to stop supporting it immediately.

Since there is no "unveiling" effect in re-adding dropped keywords, as
opposed to using profile masks that you can only remove safely by
first revdep-checking the entire tree again, I'd rather have people
file bug reports than touching the HPPA profile files themselves.

Since we (HPPA) basically agreed to drop support for the major desktop
environments in due time already (we still need to make that official
some time soon and then actually work on the problem for the last time),
dropping those keywords is a lot better than masking specific versions
of ebuilds or specific uses of USE flags.

Funnily enough, I've expressed these wishes to the people who are doing
the *DEPEND checks before they commit (hundreds of ebuilds) time and
again, and still ended up with sometimes years old entries in
package.{,use.}mask files.

In fact I think there's a bug open about it and I tried to get some
discussion about it going on this very mailing list. :)


 jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:14:28 +0200
Sebastian Pipping  wrote:

> On 06/16/10 07:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> > That's a conclusion first, then a premise?
> 
> "Tone is not a strength of Gentoo" is my own obserservation.
> Please be more verbose - I fail to understand the core of your
> question.

I was responding two the two previous (quoted) paragraphs:


1> Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo.

2> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the
2> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy.

and the question was whether "the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking
respect and empathy"(2) equals "bad tone"(1), whereby the latter
paragraph(the premise) serves to prove the former (the conclusion). In
my humble opinion, a lack of respect or a lack of empathy is not the
same as "bad tone". Whereby I take "bad tone" to mean is communicating
in a bad, possibly malicious way, like condescending or scathing in
nature. I guess bad communication could result from a lack of respect,
but that presupposes a history between the parties that do not show
each other respect.

A lack of empathy is something that really does bite us, as is already
explained by Roy, with his three cause of cumulative misunderstanding.
There's a language barrier, English is *not* the easiest language to
bring an unmistakable point across in, and on top of that there is a
problem, between people from different nations, of different sexes and
of different ages.

I'd say there is yet a fourth cause, which is that the Internet (that
thing appearing on your computer screen) offers far fewer moral
handholds than your typical brick-and-mortar environment with real
people in them.

> I have oberved this in #gentoo, in the forums and basically every
> thread releated to Python 3 - that topic seams to be a heat bomb.
> Are links to concrete threads really necessary?  I'm afraid we'll be
> arguing about that very case and justifications for this and that
> sentence then.  My concern are all threads together.

That's not much of an example.

> I agree with antarus that it shouldn't be the job of just DevRel to
> demand friendly tone on communication mediums but the job of everyone
> involved.

Well, on top of that, devrel already tried that once, and I think it
didn't work.

> As I understand you say that bad bug reports make it hard for you to
> stay friendly.  Correct?

No, it is difficult to write a good response to any bug report. If you
need to write a response at all, the report is probably so bad it needs
to be closed (perhaps to be reopened later). A bad bug report takes more
time to wrangle than a good one, so the more bad bug reports, the
longer you need to wrangle them and the less time you have to
elaborate, inform, help or thank the reporters. Bad bug reports do make
me hesitantly find ways to say more with less, which some reporters
might find rude. It still isn't very obvious to me when I might behave
badly in someone else's view, but I do respond to such concerns when
they are raised (and take even more time to either defend my view or to
change the Summary around or to request more specific information or
output pertaining to a changed description).

> Any ideas what we could do on our end to improve the situation?

Well, apart from explaining technical stuff[1] as in the example above,
we could obviously explain how our developers work, how much most of
them get payed for doing that, inform users of our services what they
can and cannot expect to get.


 jer


[1] We have a couple of pretty good guides[2][3] about using
bugzilla.g.o, but I suspect bug reporters who report badly tend to be
the same people who skip a three page lecture on how to report bugs.

[2]  the official
thing, as referred to on .
[3]  the
guide for bug-wranglers slash project page.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Jacob Godserv]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 20:14, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
 wrote:
> There are a few cases where people could and should improve their
> behaviour, but let's not forget we're a technical community and so it's
> imho an illusion to expect us to have a "hugs and kisses" tone. But yes,
> everyone participating in Gentoo mediums should strive to be courteous,
> respectful and promote debates on ideas.

I agree that we need to be "courteous, respectful and promote debates
on ideas," but I disagree that we have to accept subtle opposites
because the topic might be touchy.

I'm somewhat confused about why there can't be a team of people who
moderate the mailing list. That solution seems effective for most
other Internet communities. Is it a question of manpower?

-- 
Jacob

"For then there will be great distress, unequaled
from the beginning of the world until now — and never
to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut
short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the
elect those days will be shortened."

Are you ready?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Ben de Groot]

On 17 June 2010 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
 wrote:
> On 16-06-2010 16:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
>> On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>>>  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
>>>    is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?
>>
>> I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer
>> is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people,
>> that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users.
>
> There is a common misconception here that I feel the need to address. It
> was never the direct responsibility of the Developer Relations team to
> "police" the communication mediums nor was it assigned the
> responsibility to enforce the CoC.

DevRel is repsonsible for solving conflicts between developers.
Apparently I am not the only one who expects DevRel to take an active
role in enforcing the CoC, at least where it concerns inter-developer
relations. If this is not DevRel's task, then this should be made
explicit.

> There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including
> DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project
> was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or
> banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team.

This is very worrying. Such things should never be a silent agreement.
This needs to be open and transparent. This is policy that needs to be
explicit.

Cheers,
Ben

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposing fundamental changes to DevRel

[Ben de Groot]

On 17 June 2010 02:33, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
 wrote:
> On 17-06-2010 00:00, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>> yngwin's devaway message still reads
>>
>>   "inactive, pending resolution of devrel issue".
>>
>> yngwin retired.  I woudn't go as far as saying that his case made him
>> retire but I definitely say that _DevRel failed on his case_.
>> I believe I had enough insight to be able to say.
>
> Sebastian,
>
> not being in the Developer Relations team means you don't have a
> complete picture about what happened.

I've been in contact with Sebastian since the beginning of my conflict
with Calchan, and kept him in the loop. Apart from anything that might
have taken place behind the closed doors of DevRel that I myself don't
know about either, he has a good picture of what happened.


>>  4) Disallow membership with both the conflict resolution group
>>     and the council at the same time (as the council is where issues
>>     with devrel are taken to).
>
> The reason the elections page clearly identifies members of devrel is to
> alert developers to possible conflicts.
> To clarify your above statement, I read it as being about the fact that
> disciplinary actions of DevRel can be appealed to the Council. If it
> were meant globally, I'd have to note that whenever you cannot reach an
> agreement with any project or their lead, you'll have to "appeal" to the
> council.

I indicated to Sebastian that if DevRel's verdict in my case would
turn out to be negative, that I am not inclined to appeal to Council.
As two of the most influential DevRel members happen to also be two of
the most influential Council members, I would not expect a different
outcome.

I think there is a conflict of interest here, and I agree with
Sebastian that it would be better if that were avoided.

Cheers,
Ben

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 17-06-2010 00:17, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> Jorge,
> 
> 
> On 06/17/10 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including
>> DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project
>> was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or
>> banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team.
> 
> Why on the UserRel team?  Am I missing obvious things?

Because the CoC is about communication on Gentoo mediums and that
involves our global community. One of the roles and goals of the User
Relations project is to mediate between users and developers.
Prior to the Proctors project and in most cases after the Proctors were
dissolved, it has fall into a UserRel member to intervene on the MLs
when a flame war burst and it's to UserRel that abusive behaviour in the
communication channels is being reported, mostly by users, and even
appeals about decisions made by moderators of other "forums" are being sent.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposing fundamental changes to DevRel

[Jeremy Olexa]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:00:21 +0200, Sebastian Pipping
 wrote:
>
> yngwin's devaway message still reads
> 
>   "inactive, pending resolution of devrel issue".
> 
> yngwin retired.  I woudn't go as far as saying that his case made him
> retire but I definitely say that _DevRel failed on his case_.
> I believe I had enough insight to be able to say.

How do you have "enough insight" to know this stuff? Was it public? I
consider myself pretty active in the community and don't know a thing
about yngwin's case. It is all pretty vague to me. /me shrugs.

> I would like to propose these fundamental changes to DevRel:
> 

I can't comment on the rest due to the above.

-Jeremy

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposing fundamental changes to DevRel

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>  4) Disallow membership with both the conflict resolution group
>    and the council at the same time (as the council is where issues
>    with devrel are taken to).

i have yet to see this being necessary.  the one or two times there
was a conflict of interest, there was a minor discussion ahead of time
and cleanly resolved.

i.e. it isnt a problem
-mike

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposing fundamental changes to DevRel

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 17-06-2010 00:00, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> 
> yngwin's devaway message still reads
> 
>   "inactive, pending resolution of devrel issue".
> 
> yngwin retired.  I woudn't go as far as saying that his case made him
> retire but I definitely say that _DevRel failed on his case_.
> I believe I had enough insight to be able to say.

Sebastian,

not being in the Developer Relations team means you don't have a
complete picture about what happened.

> I would like to propose these fundamental changes to DevRel:
> 
>  1) Make the list of subscribers to the devrel alias public
> 
>   Idea: If you share private information you have a right
> to know with whom you share.

I don't know what gave you the idea that the list of the Developer
Relations project members is private.
You can check the alias members directly by running "grep devrel
/var/mail/master.aliases" on woodpecker and you can check the project
members at http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/

>  2) Clearly split DevRel into groups for recruiting and conflict
> resolution with distinct aliases.

There are subgroups in the DevRel team, including recruiters and
undertakers, and there are specific aliases for those - recruiters and
retirement. The conflict resolution is handled through the devrel alias
as the Ombudsman project was dissolved 1 or 2 years ago.
You can check the membership to the subgroups in the DevRel page.

>  3) Let Gentoo developers vote on who's in the conflict resolution
> team just like we do with the council.

AFAIK this never happened before and in my opinion choosing conflict
resolution members by "popularity" is a very bad idea.

>  4) Disallow membership with both the conflict resolution group
> and the council at the same time (as the council is where issues
> with devrel are taken to).

The reason the elections page clearly identifies members of devrel is to
alert developers to possible conflicts.
To clarify your above statement, I read it as being about the fact that
disciplinary actions of DevRel can be appealed to the Council. If it
were meant globally, I'd have to note that whenever you cannot reach an
agreement with any project or their lead, you'll have to "appeal" to the
council.

>   Idea: From insight on cases of DevRel versus members of RevRel
> I can tell this dossn't work well.  I suppose that
> Council against Council-DevRel doesn't work better.
> 
>   Problem: Both betelgeuse and jmbsvicetto are DevRel members
>nominated for the upcoming council election.
>As I am also nominated proposing such rule could be
>understood aiming at decreasing their chances on the
>council and increasing mine as a result.  However, as I
>propose to start over with a developer voted conflict
>resolution team this is not the case.  The only
>implication is that if they make it to the council
>they cannot be elected for the conflict resolution team.

My response to your email has nothing to do with the above and to make
it crystal clear, this is my personal opinion and doesn't represent the
global view of the DevRel team or any other team I am a member of.

> DevRel is one of the most important things in Gentoo - we dependend on
> that working well.  If you care about this please make yourself heard.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> Sebastian

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

Jorge,


On 06/17/10 02:14, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> Sebastian, I understand your concern, but as Alec puts it, we have gone
> a long way since the 2007-2008 low regarding this type of behaviour.
> I'm not advocating that communication in Gentoo mediums has become
> perfect, but I don't see all the rudeness and lack of respect and
> empathy that you see, not in a global manner.

maybe is has been worse, maybe other projects do worse.
I have been to IRC channels of other distros and went away quickly, yes.

Still: I use Gentoo for about a year; during that year I have seen many
cases.


> There are a few cases where people could and should improve their
> behaviour, but let's not forget we're a technical community and so it's
> imho an illusion to expect us to have a "hugs and kisses" tone.

I was expecting someone to bring up "hugs and kisses" as you say.
In my impression other technical projects do much better in that regard
so it doesn't seem impossible.  KDE and Xiph come to my mind: they do
better.  Our low number of female developers could also be an indicator
for the atmosphere in here.

I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the
distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011.

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

Jorge,


On 06/17/10 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including
> DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project
> was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or
> banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team.

Why on the UserRel team?  Am I missing obvious things?


> Leadership can help by making people focus on goals, promoting shared
> views and make developers less likely to get entangled on flame wars.
> However, even though those with more prominent roles like project
> leaders and council members have an extra responsibility as their
> actions have greater exposure, it's critical that all members of the
> community realize that it's up to "each and every one of us" to set the
> tone. One of the goals of the CoC was to make it clear that every single
> one of us affects the tone of the community and that each of us can and
> should make an effort to promote a better tone that will ultimately lead
> to a "friendlier community".

Well said.

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 16-06-2010 05:03, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Sebastian Pipping  wrote:
>> Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to
>> understand and complement each other?  What can we do to make Gentoo a
>> friendlier community?
> 
> I haven't seen the crazy crap on the lists that was present in
> 2007-2008 so I'm actually fairly happy with the current style.  I'd
> love to throw around more compliments but I tend to compliment people
> by using their software and sending them patches...or making fun of
> them on IRC, either way.

Sebastian, I understand your concern, but as Alec puts it, we have gone
a long way since the 2007-2008 low regarding this type of behaviour.
I'm not advocating that communication in Gentoo mediums has become
perfect, but I don't see all the rudeness and lack of respect and
empathy that you see, not in a global manner.
There are a few cases where people could and should improve their
behaviour, but let's not forget we're a technical community and so it's
imho an illusion to expect us to have a "hugs and kisses" tone. But yes,
everyone participating in Gentoo mediums should strive to be courteous,
respectful and promote debates on ideas.

>> Thanks for your interest,
>>
>>
>>
>> Sebastian
>>
>>
>> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml
>> [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml
>> [3] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml
>>
>>
> 

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

Jeroen,


On 06/16/10 21:31, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> 1) that there are probably some good examples of the bad tone that sping
> referred to, perhaps in the devrel/userrel domain and therefore not
> initially public, and that unless those projects fail (to uphold the
> CoC), we should probably not be talking about it on a public mailing
> list.

from demanding a friendly tone on other mailing lists myself and the
private "thank you, I was afraid this was accepted around here" replies
after I prefer to keep tone discussions in the open as far as possible.
Our user base wouldn't know we care about tone if we discussed it in
private.

On the conflict resolution I would go as far as stating that DevRel
currently fails at that.  I'll start a new thread on that.


> 2) that "tone" is unavoidably a subjective matter, which is precisely
> the reason that some in our community choose consciously to be concise,
> informative and dispassionate, while you might infer that this results
> in curt, graceless and unaffectionate communication, or "bad tone" in
> short.

I agree that's though to do well.

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 16-06-2010 16:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
> On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>>  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
>>is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?
> 
> I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer
> is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people,
> that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users.

There is a common misconception here that I feel the need to address. It
was never the direct responsibility of the Developer Relations team to
"police" the communication mediums nor was it assigned the
responsibility to enforce the CoC.
The "enforcement" of the CoC was orginally assigned to the Proctors
Project. When that project ended, that responsibility was not
specifically assigned to any other project.
Users and developers should be aware that the Developer Relations team
besides taking care of the HR side of Gentoo, including the recruitment
and retirement of developers, is responsible for mediation between
developers (only developers) and may take disciplinary actions when
developers misbehave, usually by request of another developer or team.
The responsibility of mediation between users and developers, as well as
the review of abusive behaviour by users has been assigned to the User
Relations team for quite a few years now.
There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including
DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project
was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or
banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team.

>> What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community?
> 
> We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the
> Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say "thanks" to
> people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right?
> 
> I believe it's the project leaders and the Council who ultimately set
> the tone.

Leadership can help by making people focus on goals, promoting shared
views and make developers less likely to get entangled on flame wars.
However, even though those with more prominent roles like project
leaders and council members have an extra responsibility as their
actions have greater exposure, it's critical that all members of the
community realize that it's up to "each and every one of us" to set the
tone. One of the goals of the CoC was to make it clear that every single
one of us affects the tone of the community and that each of us can and
should make an effort to promote a better tone that will ultimately lead
to a "friendlier community".

> Paweł
> 

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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[gentoo-dev] Proposing fundamental changes to DevRel

[Sebastian Pipping]

Hello!


yngwin's devaway message still reads

  "inactive, pending resolution of devrel issue".

yngwin retired.  I woudn't go as far as saying that his case made him
retire but I definitely say that _DevRel failed on his case_.
I believe I had enough insight to be able to say.


I would like to propose these fundamental changes to DevRel:

 1) Make the list of subscribers to the devrel alias public

  Idea: If you share private information you have a right
to know with whom you share.

 2) Clearly split DevRel into groups for recruiting and conflict
resolution with distinct aliases.

 3) Let Gentoo developers vote on who's in the conflict resolution
team just like we do with the council.

 4) Disallow membership with both the conflict resolution group
and the council at the same time (as the council is where issues
with devrel are taken to).

  Idea: From insight on cases of DevRel versus members of RevRel
I can tell this dossn't work well.  I suppose that
Council against Council-DevRel doesn't work better.

  Problem: Both betelgeuse and jmbsvicetto are DevRel members
   nominated for the upcoming council election.
   As I am also nominated proposing such rule could be
   understood aiming at decreasing their chances on the
   council and increasing mine as a result.  However, as I
   propose to start over with a developer voted conflict
   resolution team this is not the case.  The only
   implication is that if they make it to the council
   they cannot be elected for the conflict resolution team.


DevRel is one of the most important things in Gentoo - we dependend on
that working well.  If you care about this please make yourself heard.

Thanks,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Steve Dibb]

On 06/16/2010 04:47 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:

Pawel,


On 06/16/10 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
   

I have searched a few places for rules on tone,
   

I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules.
 

any ideas what could help?
   


Well, I'm all about practical ideas, but they take manpower, and I'm 
already pushing too much workload as it is, blah blah blah .. but ..


It seems to me that it's easier to respect everyone's work once you get 
to know them better.  So, I say, bring back developer profiles like we 
used to have on GMN.  I know dabbott's been doing some podcasts, and 
those are cool.


So, yah, my simple idea is just to get to know the devs. :)

Steve

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

Nikos,


thanks for speaking up on this matter.

I encourage more Gentoo users to make them heard with this.

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

Pawel,


On 06/16/10 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
>> I have searched a few places for rules on tone,
> 
> I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules.

any ideas what could help?


> We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the
> Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say "thanks" to
> people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right?

Yes.  Giving credit where possible comes to my mind, too.
Back when I was new to Gentoo I wondered if giving credit to others is
really not done in Gentoo ..

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

Angelo,


On 06/16/10 19:07, Angelo Arrifano wrote:
> I've seen some bugs [sorry no references right now] where some
> developers point out facts in a *very* aggressive way.

bug replies, yes!  I remember replies like

  "you obviously have no clue how xzz works"

from developer to developer on a bug (though that's a case of infighting
not insulting users.)

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

Roy,


On 06/16/10 21:40, Roy Bamford wrote:
> As a native English speaker (from England) I view Jers reply as terse 
> and to the point, completely lacking in tone.

interesting.  Looking at the sentence

  "When did you point this out to devrel?"

I would like to say that while it's not impolite per se it's implicitly
saying "You _have to_ point this out to dev rel" in my ears.  A more or
less word-by-word translation to German ("Wann hast du das gegenüber
DevRel angesprochen?") would make perfect sense and carry the same
problem so I assume it's not an English language thing.  In contrast asking

  "Have you pointed this out to DevRel?  What was their reaction?"

does not seem to have this mis-hearing problem, at least not to me.


I remember a guy of the German Unix User Group (GUUG) saying something like

  "Communication is always oriented at the receiver".

Applying that to tone and avoiding mis-interpretation the sender has the
power (and arguably the responsiblity) to sounds as friendly as needed
to be sure it will not be understood as unfriendly.  In a way there's
always a way to be friendlier - _without_ faking anything.


Some of you may know ArneBab's signature saying:

  "Being unpolitical  means being political  without realizing it."

Maybe not applying tone means applying tone without realizing, too.

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Sebastian Pipping]

On 06/16/10 07:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> That's a conclusion first, then a premise?

"Tone is not a strength of Gentoo" is my own obserservation.
Please be more verbose - I fail to understand the core of your question.


>>  - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be
>>a friendly community?  Has it always been that way?
> 
> What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, where,
> when, what channel, thread?

I have oberved this in #gentoo, in the forums and basically every thread
releated to Python 3 - that topic seams to be a heat bomb.  Are links to
concrete threads really necessary?  I'm afraid we'll be arguing about
that very case and justifications for this and that sentence then.  My
concern are all threads together.


>>  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
>>is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?
> 
> When did you point this out to devrel?

I have previously contacted DevRel with concerns about their inactivity
even with cases happening.  I have not asked for specific actions on the
mailing list, though.

I agree with antarus that it shouldn't be the job of just DevRel to
demand friendly tone on communication mediums but the job of everyone
involved.


> Being probably guilty of all of the above, I'd say it would help if the
> Gentoo users would file GOOD bug reports,

As I understand you say that bad bug reports make it hard for you to
stay friendly.  Correct?  Any ideas what we could do on our end to
improve the situation?

Best,



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Does libtool really support parallel make installs?

[Peter Volkov]

В Срд, 16/06/2010 в 17:21 -0400, Mike Frysinger пишет:
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Peter Volkov wrote:
> > В Срд, 16/06/2010 в 13:41 +0200, Pacho Ramos пишет:
> >> Trying to move the following bug to upstream:
> >> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253862
> >
> > AFAIR this was never libtool bug, but automake and with recent enough
> > automake (1.10 for sure) everything should just work.
> 
> this log shows automake-1.11.1:
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=231409

I mean there was bug in automake itself. Since package fails it is
automake usage that is broken. I'll try to check that.

-- 
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Does libtool really support parallel make installs?

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Peter Volkov wrote:
> В Срд, 16/06/2010 в 13:41 +0200, Pacho Ramos пишет:
>> Trying to move the following bug to upstream:
>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253862
>
> AFAIR this was never libtool bug, but automake and with recent enough
> automake (1.10 for sure) everything should just work.

this log shows automake-1.11.1:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=231409
-mike

Re: [gentoo-dev] Does libtool really support parallel make installs?

[Peter Volkov]

В Срд, 16/06/2010 в 13:41 +0200, Pacho Ramos пишет:
> Trying to move the following bug to upstream:
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253862

AFAIR this was never libtool bug, but automake and with recent enough
automake (1.10 for sure) everything should just work.

-- 
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Does libtool really support parallel make installs?

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El mié, 16-06-2010 a las 15:47 -0400, Mike Frysinger escribió:
>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>> > Trying to move the following bug to upstream:
>> > http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253862
>> >
>> > He replied the following:
>> > "libtool doesn't support parallel make installs. Please file a bug
>> > upstream."
>> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28108#c1
>> >
>> >
>> > Is it true? Should -j1 be forced then for all installs relaying on
>> > libtool?
>>
>> ive seen no information to show that this isnt true.  Lennart needs to
>> provide real information explaining why he thinks his statement is
>> true.
>>
>> at any rate, why is this bug still open and why are you pushing it
>> upstream ?  it only applies to <=0.11, and 0.22 is stable in the tree.
>
> It doesn't apply only to <=0.11, as can be seen in duplicates, it still
> affects to recent version appearing on some setups from time to time :-/

not all of those dupes are correct, or the same issue.  like Bug
287389 which is a bug in the configure step due to a broken toolchain
(which is already fixed and is a dupe of a different bug).  or libltdl
which features prominently in the oldest and no longer exists in
recent versions.

at any rate, you really should clean it up with the latest error, or
simply punt it in favor of only the latest relevant information (like
Bug 282730).
-mike

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Roy Bamford]

On 2010.06.16 16:36, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 06/16/2010 08:43 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> > On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200
> > Sebastian Pipping  wrote:
> >
> >> Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo.
> >>
> >> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the
> >> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy.
> >
> > That's a conclusion first, then a premise?
> >
> >> I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the
> Gentoo
> >> Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of
> >> Gentoo [3].  In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and 
> bad
> >> behavior is.  The term "Acceptable behaviour" may make sense as a
> >> counterpart to "Unacceptable behaviour" but feels like "what you
> can
> >> get away with" to me anyhow.
> >
> >>   - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be
> >> a friendly community?  Has it always been that way?
> >
> > What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who,
> where,
> > when, what channel, thread?
[snip]
> 

Nikos,

As a native English speaker (from England) I view Jers reply as terse 
and to the point, completely lacking in tone.
As Alec has already pointed out, it asks questions that need to be 
asked to advance the discussion.

To add my opinion to the reasons for the tone in gentoo communication 
channels (all of them) ...
1. Many posters are using a language that they are less than fluent in.
2. There are so many ways to say the same thing in English, its easy to 
be misunderstood. Take into account point 1 here.
3. Most contraversially, many of our developers are young and still 
have to develop the social skills that only come with experience. Keep 
in mind points 1 and 2. 

Read age in place of experience if you like but that's not a 
politically correct statement, which is I suppose another issue.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

Re: [gentoo-dev] Does libtool really support parallel make installs?

[Pacho Ramos]

El mié, 16-06-2010 a las 15:47 -0400, Mike Frysinger escribió:
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > Trying to move the following bug to upstream:
> > http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253862
> >
> > He replied the following:
> > "libtool doesn't support parallel make installs. Please file a bug
> > upstream."
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28108#c1
> >
> >
> > Is it true? Should -j1 be forced then for all installs relaying on
> > libtool?
> 
> ive seen no information to show that this isnt true.  Lennart needs to
> provide real information explaining why he thinks his statement is
> true.
> 
> at any rate, why is this bug still open and why are you pushing it
> upstream ?  it only applies to <=0.11, and 0.22 is stable in the tree.
> -mike
> 

It doesn't apply only to <=0.11, as can be seen in duplicates, it still
affects to recent version appearing on some setups from time to time :-/


signature.asc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:36:31 +0300
Nikos Chantziaras  wrote:

> Those replies are a good example of the rude behavior the poster is 
> referring to.  The replies consisted of sarcastic questions in
> "you're an idiot" style.  The only thing they do is trying to trigger
> a hostile response from the poster.

They were simple questions. I asked them because I care, not because I
am planning to defend a status quo.

> Very good example of tone in Gentoo.

Maybe instead you have come to expect a certain "Gentoo tone" to
accompany the silent letters of an e-mail? I certainly didn't put that
tone in there.

What I think but didn't initially say:

1) that there are probably some good examples of the bad tone that sping
referred to, perhaps in the devrel/userrel domain and therefore not
initially public, and that unless those projects fail (to uphold the
CoC), we should probably not be talking about it on a public mailing
list.

2) that "tone" is unavoidably a subjective matter, which is precisely
the reason that some in our community choose consciously to be concise,
informative and dispassionate, while you might infer that this results
in curt, graceless and unaffectionate communication, or "bad tone" in
short.


Regards,
 jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Does libtool really support parallel make installs?

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Trying to move the following bug to upstream:
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253862
>
> He replied the following:
> "libtool doesn't support parallel make installs. Please file a bug
> upstream."
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28108#c1
>
>
> Is it true? Should -j1 be forced then for all installs relaying on
> libtool?

ive seen no information to show that this isnt true.  Lennart needs to
provide real information explaining why he thinks his statement is
true.

at any rate, why is this bug still open and why are you pushing it
upstream ?  it only applies to <=0.11, and 0.22 is stable in the tree.
-mike

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Nominations are now open

[Wernfried Haas]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 07:15:09PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> I'd like to nominate Amne, dsd and Antarus

Thanks for the nomination, but i'll decline.

cheers,
Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums (freenode)


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/16/2010 09:18 PM, Alec Warner wrote:

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Nikos Chantziaras  wrote:

On 06/16/2010 08:43 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:


On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200
Sebastian Pippingwrote:


Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo.

As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the
atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy.


That's a conclusion first, then a premise?


I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the Gentoo
Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of
Gentoo [3].  In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and bad
behavior is.  The term "Acceptable behaviour" may make sense as a
counterpart to "Unacceptable behaviour" but feels like "what you can
get away with" to me anyhow.



  - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be
a friendly community?  Has it always been that way?


What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, where,
when, what channel, thread?


  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?


When did you point this out to devrel?
[... snip ...]


Those replies are a good example of the rude behavior the poster is
referring to.  The replies consisted of sarcastic questions in "you're an
idiot" style.  The only thing they do is trying to trigger a hostile
response from the poster.


Don't read so much between Jer's words.  The tone of the reply could
certainly use improvement but I do not think his questions were meant
to be sarcastic at all or imply the poster was an idiot.  The only
thing Jer was trying to 'trigger' is a response with some evidence of
'bad tone' so we can continue the discussion.  I don't think a hostile
reply was intended at all.


It's the overall tone that isn't nice.  Usually, when someone posts 
something, lots of people reply with sarcastic-looking "you're wrong, 
prove it or gtfo" replies.  Even if the OP is wrong, that's not the way 
to tell him that.  If you want to be constructive, you should include 
the reasons of why you thing he's wrong in your reply, or ask him to 
elaborate more.


Just look at some threads where lots of developers were fighting each 
other and track down the first post that triggered the flame; it's 
usually of the "proof or gtfo" sort.  It's bound to annoy the poster and 
make him get hostile even if his original intentions were anything but 
hostile.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Alec Warner]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Nikos Chantziaras  wrote:
> On 06/16/2010 08:43 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200
>> Sebastian Pipping  wrote:
>>
>>> Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo.
>>>
>>> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the
>>> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy.
>>
>> That's a conclusion first, then a premise?
>>
>>> I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the Gentoo
>>> Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of
>>> Gentoo [3].  In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and bad
>>> behavior is.  The term "Acceptable behaviour" may make sense as a
>>> counterpart to "Unacceptable behaviour" but feels like "what you can
>>> get away with" to me anyhow.
>>
>>>  - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be
>>>    a friendly community?  Has it always been that way?
>>
>> What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, where,
>> when, what channel, thread?
>>
>>>  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
>>>    is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?
>>
>> When did you point this out to devrel?
>> [... snip ...]
>
> Those replies are a good example of the rude behavior the poster is
> referring to.  The replies consisted of sarcastic questions in "you're an
> idiot" style.  The only thing they do is trying to trigger a hostile
> response from the poster.

Don't read so much between Jer's words.  The tone of the reply could
certainly use improvement but I do not think his questions were meant
to be sarcastic at all or imply the poster was an idiot.  The only
thing Jer was trying to 'trigger' is a response with some evidence of
'bad tone' so we can continue the discussion.  I don't think a hostile
reply was intended at all.

You may not like the tone of the questions but certainly asking for
examples of 'bad tone' is likely a key step in improving the tone of
the community.  Otherwise people have no idea what they are doing
wrong in the community's eyes and have no way to improve it.

DevRel tends to be a body of folks that do not act unless things are
reported.  Asking 'when did you report these items to DevRel and what
action did they take if any' is likely a reasonable question as well.
Again pointing out what DevRel is doing wrong and providing
alternative actions will likely be a necessary part of this process.

>
> Very good example of tone in Gentoo.
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Nominations are now open

[George Prowse]

On 05/06/2010 01:00, Torsten Veller wrote:

Hello fellow developers and users.

...

I'd like to nominate Amne, dsd and Antarus

G

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Angelo Arrifano]

On 16-06-2010 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
> On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the
>> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy.

You are not the only one hearing that. If we jump over our own fences,
that will be much more visible.
> 
> This is really sad. And the kind of people who value that often make
> good developers if they also have good technical skills.
> 
>> I have searched a few places for rules on tone,
> 
> I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules.
> 
>>  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
>>is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?
> 
> I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer
> is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people,
> that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users.
> 
>> Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to
>> understand and complement each other?
> 
> That might be a part of it.
> 
>> What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community?
> 
> We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the
> Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say "thanks" to
> people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right?

Damn right. Motivation is something that is very easy to lose. If we
developers don't show users that we appreciate their contributions (even
when we don't), we risk losing potential contributions in the future.

I've seen some bugs [sorry no references right now] where some
developers point out facts in a *very* aggressive way. Even when what
they have to say is true, they will scare away people. Is this what we want?
I understand there are a lot of factors that leads into a aggressive
response: private life, karma, the persistence of people doing things
*wrong*, etc.. we are humans after all. But if such behavior is the rule
instead of the exception, then I believe something is wrong and devrel
should be brought into attention.

- Angelo
> 
> I believe it's the project leaders and the Council who ultimately set
> the tone.
> 
> Paweł
> 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

[Paweł Hajdan, Jr.]

On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the
> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy.

This is really sad. And the kind of people who value that often make
good developers if they also have good technical skills.

> I have searched a few places for rules on tone,

I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules.

>  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
>is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?

I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer
is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people,
that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users.

> Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to
> understand and complement each other?

That might be a part of it.

> What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community?

We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the
Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say "thanks" to
people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right?

I believe it's the project leaders and the Council who ultimately set
the tone.

Paweł



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[gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/16/2010 08:43 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200
Sebastian Pipping  wrote:


Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo.

As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the
atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy.


That's a conclusion first, then a premise?


I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the Gentoo
Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of
Gentoo [3].  In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and bad
behavior is.  The term "Acceptable behaviour" may make sense as a
counterpart to "Unacceptable behaviour" but feels like "what you can
get away with" to me anyhow.



  - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be
a friendly community?  Has it always been that way?


What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, where,
when, what channel, thread?


  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel
is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary?


When did you point this out to devrel?
[... snip ...]


Those replies are a good example of the rude behavior the poster is 
referring to.  The replies consisted of sarcastic questions in "you're 
an idiot" style.  The only thing they do is trying to trigger a hostile 
response from the poster.


Very good example of tone in Gentoo.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Adding AdobeFlash-10{,.1} licenses to EULA group

[Angelo Arrifano]

On 16-06-2010 14:40, Jim Ramsay wrote:
> Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn  wrote:
>> I propose that this license be added to the EULA group. The previous 
>> AdobeFlash-10 license is similar in this regard, and could possibly
>> also be added to that group.
> 
> Agreed, on both points, and done.  Thanks for finding and airing this
> issue!
> 
>> One notable section is 7.6 in which Adobe reserves the right to
>> download and install additional Content Protection software on the
>> user's PC.
> 
> Not like anyone will actually *read* the license before adding it to
> their accept group, but if they did this would indeed be an important
> thing of which users should be aware.
> 

I defend it is our job to warn users about this kind of details. To me
it sounds that a einfo at post-build phase would do the job, what do you
guys think?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Adding AdobeFlash-10{,.1} licenses to EULA group

[Jim Ramsay]

Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn  wrote:
> I propose that this license be added to the EULA group. The previous 
> AdobeFlash-10 license is similar in this regard, and could possibly
> also be added to that group.

Agreed, on both points, and done.  Thanks for finding and airing this
issue!

> One notable section is 7.6 in which Adobe reserves the right to
> download and install additional Content Protection software on the
> user's PC.

Not like anyone will actually *read* the license before adding it to
their accept group, but if they did this would indeed be an important
thing of which users should be aware.

-- 
Jim Ramsay
Gentoo Developer (rox/fluxbox/gkrellm/vim)


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[gentoo-dev] QA last rites for sci-biology/mpiblast

[Diego E . Pettenò]

# Diego E. Pettenò  (16 Jun 2010)
#  on behalf of QA team
#
# Has a number of QA issues, see bug #278192. Build happens
# in src_test or src_install, and it has been failing since
# July 2009 in the tinderbox. No reverse dependencies to
# take into consideration.
#
# Removal on 2010-08-15
sci-biology/mpiblast

[gentoo-dev] Does libtool really support parallel make installs?

[Pacho Ramos]

Hello

Trying to move the following bug to upstream:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253862

He replied the following:
"libtool doesn't support parallel make installs. Please file a bug
upstream."
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28108#c1


Is it true? Should -j1 be forced then for all installs relaying on
libtool?

Thanks a lot for the information


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