Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:25:58 +0200 Jeroen Roovers j...@gentoo.org wrote: No, that's what you see from the inside. We, outside your head, the others, see it precisely as Brian worded it. Some people apparently tolerate or even appreciate your general (online) attitude towards humans, but most do not. You're trying awfully hard to turn this from a discussion about a feature into a discussion about people. Please don't try to confuse the two -- attacking the messenger just prolongs getting a fix implemented. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:55:27 -0400 Richard Yao r...@cs.stonybrook.edu wrote: I think we should wait for Portage 2.2 to be stabilized before we declare Gentoo 2.0. @preserved-libs is enough of an advance that I think claiming 2.0 would be merited, if only for the attention it would draw at Phoronix. Do you really want to be advertising an awful hack that doesn't really work, is conceptually unsound and that breaks all kinds of things in subtle ways? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 08:56:22AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Do you really want to be advertising an awful hack that doesn't really work, is conceptually unsound and that breaks all kinds of things in subtle ways? Isn't that something all major distributions do? ;-) Sven
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production boxes for years without any issues :) ...and here we see the problem. You think that I haven't noticed it break means it works. The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is that the design is I can think of a few ways where it might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine. That's a bad way of doing things. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:52:53AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production boxes for years without any issues :) ...and here we see the problem. You think that I haven't noticed it break means it works. The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is that the design is I can think of a few ways where it might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine. That's a bad way of doing things. Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does. If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo. Related, why the hell are you still even around here? You literally send more mail to our dev ml then to exherbos. I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts generally consist of xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick. ~harring (being rather tired of the broken record).
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 03/31/12 17:52, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production boxes for years without any issues :) ...and here we see the problem. You think that I haven't noticed it break means it works. The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is that the design is I can think of a few ways where it might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine. That's a bad way of doing things. Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect. While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover 100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ... I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 03/31/2012 01:06 PM, Brian Harring wrote: On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:52:53AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexanderalex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production boxes for years without any issues :) ...and here we see the problem. You think that I haven't noticed it break means it works. The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is that the design is I can think of a few ways where it might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine. That's a bad way of doing things. Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does. If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo. Related, why the hell are you still even around here? You literally send more mail to our dev ml then to exherbos. I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts generally consist of xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick. ~harring (being rather tired of the broken record). separate gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-dev-public@ MLs so we would have a place where to discuss about improving Gentoo with people who also want to improve it (or hand me powers to remove people from ML :-) - Samuli
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Mar 31, 2012 12:57 PM, Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production boxes for years without any issues :) ...and here we see the problem. You think that I haven't noticed it break means it works. The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is that the design is I can think of a few ways where it might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine. That's a bad way of doing things. -- Ciaran McCreesh No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works. You can argue about the implementation details all you want and it'll still work. If you can make it better then, by all means, send a patch. Otherwise stop spreading false FUD, please. Thanks :) Alex | wired
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Samuli Suominen ssuomi...@gentoo.org wrote: (or hand me powers to remove people from ML :-) That sounds like a great idea. We could create a code of conduct, and then designate individuals to enforce it. Maybe we should call them proctors: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml What could go wrong? Seriously though, this debate like many others recently probably shouldn't be viewed as for-Gentoo and against-Gentoo. Lots of people care about Gentoo, we just don't always agree on what is best. In this case the issue is pragmatism vs idealism, and both have their place. What is important is that we go ahead and share our views, debate points within reason, don't obsess over getting in the last word, and then work together to support the decisions that get made. My two cents in this debate is that I'm willing to accept Ciaran's suggestion that Portage 2.2's approach has its limitations, but it is the best thing we have implemented now, and thus I'll take the 98% solution over the 20% solution (which is what we get if all we do is argue over how to get to 100%(. If somebody wants to write the code to get us from 98-100%, I'm sure we'll all be for it. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:08:29 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works. Well that's interesting, because there are plenty of examples where it doesn't work, and all that it takes to disprove a theory is a single counterexample. So I think you're misunderstanding what constitutes proof here -- some evidence certainly isn't it. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:06:36 -0700 Brian Harring ferri...@gmail.com wrote: The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is that the design is I can think of a few ways where it might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine. That's a bad way of doing things. Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does. If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo. Related, why the hell are you still even around here? Because unlike you, I believe Gentoo can and should get it right. If users want a desktoppy distribution where stuff sort of works most of the time but no-one really understands why, and where you reinstall every six months, then Ubuntu already does a far better job of that. Gentoo can deliver something better. It's not even more work. It just requires a small change in thought process from code first and ask questions later to think first and then code. That, together with incrementally fixing existing bad design decisions, could bring Gentoo back towards being an extremely attractive alternative distribution. I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts generally consist of xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick. No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't already been explained, I say how to fix it. But the first step towards getting something fixed is admitting that there's a problem, and you've always been awfully reluctant to do that until the damage has already been done. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:00:00 +0800 Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote: Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect. While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover 100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ... I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works. If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's down to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering when it breaks, reinstall territory here. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 03/31/12 23:01, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:00:00 +0800 Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote: Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect. While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover 100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ... I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works. If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's down to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering when it breaks, reinstall territory here. Which is still more than 0%. I demand better trolls, this is getting boring.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:07:04 +0800 Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote: If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's down to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering when it breaks, reinstall territory here. Which is still more than 0%. I demand better trolls, this is getting boring. So you think Gentoo should advertise as the chances of it working are greater than 0%? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Mar 31, 2012 5:57 PM, Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:08:29 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works. Well that's interesting, because there are plenty of examples where it doesn't work, and all that it takes to disprove a theory is a single counterexample. So I think you're misunderstanding what constitutes proof here -- some evidence certainly isn't it. -- Ciaran McCreesh Boring. You conveniently ignored the other part of my message. I'll repeat it: no matter how much you argue, it'll still work fine for me. That said, I think we can end this conversation now :) Gentoo \o/ Alex | wired
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:30:07 +0800 Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote: So you think Gentoo should advertise as the chances of it working are greater than 0%? I said better ... not repetitive trolls. If you cared about making things better you'd spend more time writing patches and less time trying to pick fights on public mailinglists :) But I guess small minds, small pleasures ... What Gentoo needs is less immediate writing of patches and more careful thinking about how a complex mess of sort-of working, poorly interacting features can be unified into a smaller number of correct, coherent concepts. Right now most of the patches are fixing screwups in earlier patches that were caused by implementing the wrong thing (and often introducing new problems along the way). The fact that you have code that does something does not automatically imply that doing it is a good idea. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 03/31/12 23:38, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:30:07 +0800 Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote: So you think Gentoo should advertise as the chances of it working are greater than 0%? I said better ... not repetitive trolls. If you cared about making things better you'd spend more time writing patches and less time trying to pick fights on public mailinglists :) But I guess small minds, small pleasures ... What Gentoo needs is less immediate writing of patches and more careful thinking about how a complex mess of sort-of working, poorly interacting features can be unified into a smaller number of correct, coherent concepts. Right now most of the patches are fixing screwups in earlier patches that were caused by implementing the wrong thing (and often introducing new problems along the way). The fact that you have code that does something does not automatically imply that doing it is a good idea. ... and now we train not sending private messages to public mailing lists again, mmmhkay? After so many years you still accidentally do such things on purpose. Not cool.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:39:21 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: On Mar 31, 2012 5:57 PM, Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:08:29 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works. Well that's interesting, because there are plenty of examples where it doesn't work, and all that it takes to disprove a theory is a single counterexample. So I think you're misunderstanding what constitutes proof here -- some evidence certainly isn't it. Boring. You conveniently ignored the other part of my message. I was hoping you'd understand how your claim of proof was utterly unfounded. What you have is limited evidence of a very specific situation, which is a whole other thing. I'll repeat it: no matter how much you argue, it'll still work fine for me. And I'll spell it out. On the scale of it works, you have a series of levels: 1. It compiles. 2. I tried it and I didn't see any breakages. 3. I tried it, and I checked carefully that nothing was broken. 4. I tried it on a wide range of valid inputs, and I checked carefully that nothing was broken. 5. I tried it on a wide range of valid inputs, including inputs designed to test edge cases, and I checked carefully that nothing was broken. 6. I tried it on a wide range of valid and invalid inputs, and I checked carefully that nothing was broken, and that the invalid inputs were handled correctly. 7. I carefully considered all the equivalence classes of inputs, and tested each. 8. I carefully considered all the equivalence classes of inputs, and can explain why each is handled correctly. 9. I can prove that it works. You're offering evidence of number 2, or possibly 3. Gentoo is a large system containing many interacting components, that is expected to keep working for long periods in many different unpleasant situations. We need to be at at least number 7 here, and ideally number 8. For preserve libs, the feature fails at number 4. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 30 March 2012 14:25, Samuli Suominen ssuomi...@gentoo.org wrote: Back to year 2009? http://www.gentoo.org/news/20091004-gentoo-10-years.xml That never stopped anyone before http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_X-2
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:59:00 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts generally consist of xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick. No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't already been explained, I say how to fix it. No, that's what you see from the inside. We, outside your head, the others, see it precisely as Brian worded it. Some people apparently tolerate or even appreciate your general (online) attitude towards humans, but most do not. jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 03/31/2012 10:52 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander alex.alexan...@gmail.com wrote: @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production boxes for years without any issues :) ...and here we see the problem. You think that I haven't noticed it break means it works. The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is that the design is I can think of a few ways where it might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine. That's a bad way of doing things. You are right, it does not work as good as it should but it's still better than nothing ;) In any case, I am glad portage developers did not backport this feature to 2.1.X portage releases as it is quite fragile at the moment. - -- Regards, Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJPd3USAAoJEPqDWhW0r/LCeI0P/2YheKfgLeAYwU/0A9RRW/UK IXquEnUzYbYO8Y9YW8SH6V2+P3LZxye/HMJIEgv4Fy835cToVE7bUcxlizssdz5g KllHYGBitTsd3akThmO58G2gr8BqgO7u0CkArfy8N8ulLPUigrpkdoFxSOdhTlFz Qf2+VLhjGxN3iumAZYSG6Af+88W5P+HjhHiTCRU75M4PnL62/wCZHEBtbY7YUImS 0zsJo8fvYkCu0mqZQyguCfX5gi3elr2PQ/wSI72N2GhGsOHEw4KR3D/gDXmwFJw6 W/ymuWrmxUJtSjhFjwVxo5ZqYqiu35CSNlOA4nth6iiMNoNRsvDpIG3HploCzsBB Gf8EA3DYfIaSkihzm/uKFbaJ/kt3n6cm8Jv8dE5MGt4f263pgV3VbRY0gXMTesRF A+XotL46OmnR9oH35BfbtW59yz8oYaJLrhDJpa/8t0DSXGAOqWATdKsBr0klaIyz SOTASwZkAeVAeLZBGomVfSFlqb2yA2O+mQoRwG9aLhzEJkb0Quw/EnxF3PDiOgvH 9R2OfaczNO2DfZoa/P9bNzyzUfCQNyXh45sJztBzR2aMtvwDvSQfL5ro0L7BW/M6 O3XESHxy3xypSeAn9ZTfGnVp0taTmAW/xEo8NOqpH/jail1JZ2ywDqEGuA6q4qZ7 RLvexdxVoOd7NjoGIHhw =XsdD -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
Hello, I would like to wish you all a happy birthday, 10 years already since first release (Gentoo 1.0)! Here is a little thing [1] we made to celebrate it. Recipe: two layers of Génoise (for each: 6 eggs, 180g sucre, 180g farine, vanilla sugar), between layers and on top: full cream with beaten eggs and caramel. Add between the middle layers on top of the cream: raspberry. ENJOY ;) [1]: http://imgur.com/iMjLi
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 03/30/2012 04:00 PM, Axel wrote: Hello, I would like to wish you all a happy birthday, 10 years already since first release (Gentoo 1.0)! Here is a little thing [1] we made to celebrate it. Recipe: two layers of Génoise (for each: 6 eggs, 180g sucre, 180g farine, vanilla sugar), between layers and on top: full cream with beaten eggs and caramel. Add between the middle layers on top of the cream: raspberry. ENJOY ;) [1]: http://imgur.com/iMjLi Back to year 2009? http://www.gentoo.org/news/20091004-gentoo-10-years.xml
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 30 March 2012 14:25, Samuli Suominen ssuomi...@gentoo.org wrote: On 03/30/2012 04:00 PM, Axel wrote: Hello, I would like to wish you all a happy birthday, 10 years already since first release (Gentoo 1.0)! Here is a little thing [1] we made to celebrate it. Recipe: two layers of Génoise (for each: 6 eggs, 180g sucre, 180g farine, vanilla sugar), between layers and on top: full cream with beaten eggs and caramel. Add between the middle layers on top of the cream: raspberry. ENJOY ;) [1]: http://imgur.com/iMjLi Back to year 2009? http://www.gentoo.org/news/20091004-gentoo-10-years.xml Even though we already celebrated it, maybe 10-years-since-1.0 is a better event to celebrate. Remember when Gentoo had version numbers? (even though they got stuck at 1.4 for ages?) D'awww
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 03/30/2012 10:44, James Broadhead wrote: Remember when Gentoo had version numbers? (even though they got stuck at 1.4 for ages?) D'awww Maybe it's time for Gentoo-2.0? At that glacial pace, we should catch up to Firefox's versioning shortly before the heat death of the Universe. -- Joshua Kinard Gentoo/MIPS ku...@gentoo.org 4096R/D25D95E3 2011-03-28 The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us. And our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between. --Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On 03/30/12 17:15, Joshua Kinard wrote: Maybe it's time for Gentoo-2.0? I think we should wait for Portage 2.2 to be stabilized before we declare Gentoo 2.0. @preserved-libs is enough of an advance that I think claiming 2.0 would be merited, if only for the attention it would draw at Phoronix. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Richard Yao r...@cs.stonybrook.edu wrote: On 03/30/12 17:15, Joshua Kinard wrote: Maybe it's time for Gentoo-2.0? I think we should wait for Portage 2.2 to be stabilized before we declare Gentoo 2.0. @preserved-libs is enough of an advance that I think claiming 2.0 would be merited, if only for the attention it would draw at Phoronix. We don't want that kind of attention.
