Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 10:26:54PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > Dnia 2013-06-01, o godz. 15:20:32 > William Hubbs napisał(a): > > > On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 08:00:22PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > > > If a switch toggles a feature that does not introduce additional > > > dependencies, is small and can be toggled from within the app, a flag > > > is useless. > > > > If someone never wants the feature in the first place, and they can save > > space and build time by not building or installing the man pages, > > executables, config files, etc for it, forcing it onto their systems is > > an unnecessary waste of build time and bloating their systems. > > Unless the complexity added by a dozen USE flags actually *wastes more > time* than installing the manpage. Especially if he ends up rebuilding > something big because someone smart decided to add USE flag he wouldn't > ever expect to be there. Sure there may be some rebuilds initially, but that also depends on when the use flags are added. If they are added with a new release and IUSE defaults are set so that the change in functionality is minimized, the chance of people having to rebuild because of the use flags is minimized. William signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
Dnia 2013-06-01, o godz. 15:20:32 William Hubbs napisał(a): > On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 08:00:22PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > > If a switch toggles a feature that does not introduce additional > > dependencies, is small and can be toggled from within the app, a flag > > is useless. > > If someone never wants the feature in the first place, and they can save > space and build time by not building or installing the man pages, > executables, config files, etc for it, forcing it onto their systems is > an unnecessary waste of build time and bloating their systems. Unless the complexity added by a dozen USE flags actually *wastes more time* than installing the manpage. Especially if he ends up rebuilding something big because someone smart decided to add USE flag he wouldn't ever expect to be there. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 08:00:22PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > If a switch only changes the default in a config file, a flag is > useless. Ok, maybe so in this case. > If a switch toggles a feature that does not introduce additional > dependencies, is small and can be toggled from within the app, a flag > is useless. If someone never wants the feature in the first place, and they can save space and build time by not building or installing the man pages, executables, config files, etc for it, forcing it onto their systems is an unnecessary waste of build time and bloating their systems. > If a switch toggles a install of a tiny file which most people either > want or don't care about, a flag is useless. This is possible, but I haven't seen any cases of this. William signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
Dnia 2013-06-01, o godz. 12:41:06 William Hubbs napisał(a): > On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 01:23:59PM +0200, Ralph Sennhauser wrote: > > William, each time this comes up you overred the _reasonably_. > > Controlling dependencies is always reasonable but beyond that it's case > > by case. Just because you can is never a valid reason. Often there are > > options you clearly only want to toggle if you are a developer or > > options meant for porting to alternative operating systems which lack > > some bells and whistles and the like. Another example is configuring a > > library for bundling with an app. The world is bigger than linux > > distros. > > Ralph, I never said anything about disagreeing with these cases. I'm > talking about purely optional features of packages which do not > have any bearing on runtime dependencies or cause breakage. > > If a configure script offers switches for purely optional features, we > should, imo, 1) give the users use flags to control these features or > 2)hard code the settings we want in our ebuilds. > > What do you think? That depends on a package and on the case. If a switch only changes the default in a config file, a flag is useless. If a switch toggles a feature that does not introduce additional dependencies, is small and can be toggled from within the app, a flag is useless. If a switch toggles a install of a tiny file which most people either want or don't care about, a flag is useless. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 01:23:59PM +0200, Ralph Sennhauser wrote: > On Tue, 28 May 2013 17:15:40 -0500 > William Hubbs wrote: > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 09:07:37PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > > > For the others, how large is the benefit of having them switchable? > > > At least some of them look like something that wouldn't hurt people > > > if it was always-built. > > > > The dev manual states that use flags are to control optional > > dependencies and _settings_ which a user may reasonably want to select > > [1]. > > William, each time this comes up you overred the _reasonably_. > Controlling dependencies is always reasonable but beyond that it's case > by case. Just because you can is never a valid reason. Often there are > options you clearly only want to toggle if you are a developer or > options meant for porting to alternative operating systems which lack > some bells and whistles and the like. Another example is configuring a > library for bundling with an app. The world is bigger than linux > distros. Ralph, I never said anything about disagreeing with these cases. I'm talking about purely optional features of packages which do not have any bearing on runtime dependencies or cause breakage. If a configure script offers switches for purely optional features, we should, imo, 1) give the users use flags to control these features or 2)hard code the settings we want in our ebuilds. What do you think? William signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
Le mardi 28 mai 2013 à 22:18 +0200, Michał Górny a écrit : > On Tue, 28 May 2013 15:22:04 -0400 > "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: > > > I thought about ssl but I'm still not sure if USE=ssl means just openssl > > or any ssl. Eg, with curl, which has a choice of one of six backend ssl > > providers, I changed USE=ssl to mean that one and only one of the six > > must be on. Previously though, USE=ssl in curl meant only openssl which > > was confusing because you could also have USE=nss or gnutls etc provide > > your ssl. monkey also bounced around its ssl backend from liana_ssl to > > polarssl which is what made me think of curl. What if in the future > > there's yet another ssl backend? Although use.desc does say ... "ssl - > > Adds support for Secure Socket Layer connections". Any advice here? > > Any SSL. If there are multiple backends to support, there are specific > flags which affect the choice but USE=ssl means any SSL is suitable. > Already explained multiple times on this mailing list, and not only for ssl. Imho this should be part of some QA policy or documentation about writing ebuilds or whatever and not just for ssl. In any case, I wrote this down for the Gnome team at Gentoo wiki [1]. [1] http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gnome_Team_Policies#ssl -- Gilles Dartiguelongue Gentoo
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Tue, 28 May 2013 17:15:40 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 09:07:37PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > > For the others, how large is the benefit of having them switchable? > > At least some of them look like something that wouldn't hurt people > > if it was always-built. > > The dev manual states that use flags are to control optional > dependencies and _settings_ which a user may reasonably want to select > [1]. William, each time this comes up you overred the _reasonably_. Controlling dependencies is always reasonable but beyond that it's case by case. Just because you can is never a valid reason. Often there are options you clearly only want to toggle if you are a developer or options meant for porting to alternative operating systems which lack some bells and whistles and the like. Another example is configuring a library for bundling with an app. The world is bigger than linux distros. > Since the developer gives us the ability to control this with > configure switches, I feel pretty strongly that we should give the > user that control. Useless options within the given context are an usability issue and those who want to toggle stuff for it's own sake still have EXTRA_ECONF. Ralph > > William > > [1] http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/use-flags/index.html signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 09:07:37PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > For the others, how large is the benefit of having them switchable? > At least some of them look like something that wouldn't hurt people if > it was always-built. The dev manual states that use flags are to control optional dependencies and _settings_ which a user may reasonably want to select [1]. Since the developer gives us the ability to control this with configure switches, I feel pretty strongly that we should give the user that control. William [1] http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/use-flags/index.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Tue, 28 May 2013 15:22:04 -0400 "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: > I thought about ssl but I'm still not sure if USE=ssl means just openssl > or any ssl. Eg, with curl, which has a choice of one of six backend ssl > providers, I changed USE=ssl to mean that one and only one of the six > must be on. Previously though, USE=ssl in curl meant only openssl which > was confusing because you could also have USE=nss or gnutls etc provide > your ssl. monkey also bounced around its ssl backend from liana_ssl to > polarssl which is what made me think of curl. What if in the future > there's yet another ssl backend? Although use.desc does say ... "ssl - > Adds support for Secure Socket Layer connections". Any advice here? Any SSL. If there are multiple backends to support, there are specific flags which affect the choice but USE=ssl means any SSL is suitable. > monkeyd is intended for embedded systems which is why it has switchable > plugins. You can even choose whether or not to install the shared lib > and include files to really slim it down. I can understand using USE flags to trim down plugins (assuming they're large). But shared-lib is an overkill. If people want this degree of scalability, it's either INSTALL_MASK or USE=minimal. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On 05/28/2013 03:07 PM, Michał Górny wrote: On Tue, 28 May 2013 14:57:03 -0400 "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: On 05/28/2013 11:35 AM, Michał Górny wrote: On Mon, 27 May 2013 16:38:09 -0400 "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: I was about to add a use expand flag for monkeyd (a tiny web server) and there is a notice in base/make.default to discuss use expand flags on the list first. There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to follow the same logic as apache here. There are no dependencies on monkeyd and so no use-deps. Seems very safe. Any objections? Could you elaborate a bit more on the flags? Please list them, shortly explain and tell us whether you expect the number of plugins to expand and how fast. Sorry I already committed this with Chainsaw's ack. Anyhow, they are: auth - Provide HTTP Basic Authentication cheetah - Provide a shell-like command line interface #cgi - Provide the traditional CGI interface dirlisting - Show an HTML listing of the content of a directory #fastcgi - Provide FastCGI proxy support liana - Build your own network layer through monkeyd logger - Log requests and common errors mandril - Restrict incoming connections based on the IP address or URI request polarssl - Provide HTTPS using PolarSSL v1.*. Shouldn't this one be tied to USE=ssl? For the others, how large is the benefit of having them switchable? At least some of them look like something that wouldn't hurt people if it was always-built. I thought about ssl but I'm still not sure if USE=ssl means just openssl or any ssl. Eg, with curl, which has a choice of one of six backend ssl providers, I changed USE=ssl to mean that one and only one of the six must be on. Previously though, USE=ssl in curl meant only openssl which was confusing because you could also have USE=nss or gnutls etc provide your ssl. monkey also bounced around its ssl backend from liana_ssl to polarssl which is what made me think of curl. What if in the future there's yet another ssl backend? Although use.desc does say ... "ssl - Adds support for Secure Socket Layer connections". Any advice here? monkeyd is intended for embedded systems which is why it has switchable plugins. You can even choose whether or not to install the shared lib and include files to really slim it down. -- Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D. Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened] E-Mail: bluen...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA GnuPG ID : F52D4BBA
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Tue, 28 May 2013 14:57:03 -0400 "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: > On 05/28/2013 11:35 AM, Michał Górny wrote: > > On Mon, 27 May 2013 16:38:09 -0400 > > "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: > > > >> I was about to add a use expand flag for monkeyd (a tiny web server) and > >> there is a notice in base/make.default to discuss use expand flags on > >> the list first. There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache > >> which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to > >> follow the same logic as apache here. There are no dependencies on > >> monkeyd and so no use-deps. Seems very safe. Any objections? > > Could you elaborate a bit more on the flags? Please list them, shortly > > explain and tell us whether you expect the number of plugins to expand > > and how fast. > > > > Sorry I already committed this with Chainsaw's ack. Anyhow, they are: > > auth - Provide HTTP Basic Authentication > cheetah - Provide a shell-like command line interface > #cgi - Provide the traditional CGI interface > dirlisting - Show an HTML listing of the content of a directory > #fastcgi - Provide FastCGI proxy support > liana - Build your own network layer through monkeyd > logger - Log requests and common errors > mandril - Restrict incoming connections based on the IP address or URI > request > polarssl - Provide HTTPS using PolarSSL v1.*. Shouldn't this one be tied to USE=ssl? For the others, how large is the benefit of having them switchable? At least some of them look like something that wouldn't hurt people if it was always-built. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On 05/28/2013 11:35 AM, Michał Górny wrote: On Mon, 27 May 2013 16:38:09 -0400 "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: I was about to add a use expand flag for monkeyd (a tiny web server) and there is a notice in base/make.default to discuss use expand flags on the list first. There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to follow the same logic as apache here. There are no dependencies on monkeyd and so no use-deps. Seems very safe. Any objections? Could you elaborate a bit more on the flags? Please list them, shortly explain and tell us whether you expect the number of plugins to expand and how fast. Sorry I already committed this with Chainsaw's ack. Anyhow, they are: auth - Provide HTTP Basic Authentication cheetah - Provide a shell-like command line interface #cgi - Provide the traditional CGI interface dirlisting - Show an HTML listing of the content of a directory #fastcgi - Provide FastCGI proxy support liana - Build your own network layer through monkeyd logger - Log requests and common errors mandril - Restrict incoming connections based on the IP address or URI request polarssl - Provide HTTPS using PolarSSL v1.*. The ones that are commented out are global flags and so I did not make them part of the USE_EXPAND, they are still treated as plugins by monkeyd and I have them commented out in monkeyd_plugins.desc with an explanation. Upstream has an entire plugin system which they use extensively and expect contributors to use plugins. There have always been a couple of changes with each bump, eg between 1.1.1 and 1.2.0 regarding ssl. So I expect the same in the future. -- Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D. Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened] E-Mail: bluen...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA GnuPG ID : F52D4BBA
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Mon, 27 May 2013 16:38:09 -0400 "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: > I was about to add a use expand flag for monkeyd (a tiny web server) and > there is a notice in base/make.default to discuss use expand flags on > the list first. There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache > which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to > follow the same logic as apache here. There are no dependencies on > monkeyd and so no use-deps. Seems very safe. Any objections? Could you elaborate a bit more on the flags? Please list them, shortly explain and tell us whether you expect the number of plugins to expand and how fast. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On 05/28/2013 02:01 AM, Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon wrote: On Mon, 2013-05-27 at 16:38 -0400, Anthony G. Basile wrote: There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to follow the same logic as apache here. Indeed it does. Particularly if it avoids a non-obvious USE-flag that requires an explanation in metadata.xml, like the problem I had with VOICEMAIL_STORAGE in net-misc/asterisk. It took me 3 days to get a reply to that, so I'm replying even though I'm agreeing with you. Then again, perhaps I just want to see something else on this list then bickering... Regards, Tony V. Thanks. I would have taken silence as consent after one day :) -- Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D. Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened] E-Mail: bluen...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA GnuPG ID : F52D4BBA
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
Am 27.05.2013 22:38, schrieb Anthony G. Basile:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I was about to add a use expand flag for monkeyd (a tiny web server) and
> there is a notice in base/make.default to discuss use expand flags on
> the list first. There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache
> which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to
> follow the same logic as apache here. There are no dependencies on
> monkeyd and so no use-deps. Seems very safe. Any objections?
>
> --Tony
>
Some time ago, Zac proposed a general PLUGIN (or PLUGINS) use-expand,
which could be used for packages with a small amount of plugins to avoid
having a new USE_EXPAND for each and every package. It also has the
advantage, that the resulting useflag 'plugins_foobar' is sane enough
(opposed to 'monkeyd_plugins_foobar'). With this, it serves as a quite
nice compromise for the fraction of USE_EXPAND-dislikers (like me).
Unfortunately this did not get any real discussion. So could this
package be an option to start this? Or do you insist on
monkeyd_{plugins,modules,...}_ ?
Thanks,
René
Re: [gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
On Mon, 2013-05-27 at 16:38 -0400, Anthony G. Basile wrote: > There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache > which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to > follow the same logic as apache here. Indeed it does. Particularly if it avoids a non-obvious USE-flag that requires an explanation in metadata.xml, like the problem I had with VOICEMAIL_STORAGE in net-misc/asterisk. It took me 3 days to get a reply to that, so I'm replying even though I'm agreeing with you. Then again, perhaps I just want to see something else on this list then bickering... Regards, Tony V.
[gentoo-dev] New USE_EXPAND flag for www-servers/monkeyd
Hi everyone, I was about to add a use expand flag for monkeyd (a tiny web server) and there is a notice in base/make.default to discuss use expand flags on the list first. There are about 9 plugins for monkeyd similar to apache which can be turned on/off by a configure switch. It makes sense to follow the same logic as apache here. There are no dependencies on monkeyd and so no use-deps. Seems very safe. Any objections? --Tony -- Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D. Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened] E-Mail: bluen...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA GnuPG ID : F52D4BBA
