Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
On 12/30/2009 12:14 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: 2010-01-21: * Qt team meeting: discuss actions to be taken regarding remaining pkgs that use qt:3 2010-02-21: * mask qt:3 and depending ebuilds, pending removal 30 days isn't a long time. How about filing bugs against anything that currently uses qt3 right away, so that maintainers have an extra three weeks to resolve these issues? Granted, one would hope they've been paying attention. As a random example, the current stable version of mythtv uses qt3, but I don't see any open bugs about that (that package is probably an easy fix as the newer versions use qt3support, and that version is already stable upstream). Usually the approach in these situations is to have a big tracker bug for qt3 removal and a million blocker bugs against individual packages. I'm not saying you can't move forward until everybody else gets their acts together, but tracking this in bugzilla probably isn't a bad move if it isn't too much work. Plus, you might decide that one or two of the blockers really are critical, and decide to work with those maintainers more closely or escalate the issue.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
On 12/31/2009 02:39 PM, Richard Freeman wrote: On 12/30/2009 12:14 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: 2010-01-21: * Qt team meeting: discuss actions to be taken regarding remaining pkgs that use qt:3 2010-02-21: * mask qt:3 and depending ebuilds, pending removal 30 days isn't a long time. How about filing bugs against anything that currently uses qt3 right away, so that maintainers have an extra three weeks to resolve these issues? Granted, one would hope they've been paying attention. As a random example, the current stable version of mythtv uses qt3, but I don't see any open bugs about that (that package is probably an easy fix as the newer versions use qt3support, and that version is already stable upstream). Stable MythTV has more issues than just Qt3, as the current stable doesn't compile anymore, http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=280303 which is about to get masked tomorrow with kdelibs-3... Just saying...
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
On 12/31/2009 07:51 AM, Samuli Suominen wrote: Stable MythTV has more issues than just Qt3, as the current stable doesn't compile anymore, http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=280303 which is about to get masked tomorrow with kdelibs-3... Those of us who run it wouldn't mind seeing a STABLEREQ if cardoe thinks it is ready... :) I've been thinking about taking the plunge anyway. A news item about the utf-8 issues might not hurt though as doing the upgrade right involves backups/etc. The news item should be released BEFORE it goes stable. That is, unless the upgrade process has become seamless now.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
2009/12/31 Richard Freeman ri...@gentoo.org: 30 days isn't a long time. How about filing bugs against anything that currently uses qt3 right away, so that maintainers have an extra three weeks to resolve these issues? Granted, one would hope they've been paying attention. We've already announced that 5 months ago and asked for any issues to be brought to our attention. If things haven't improved by now, it is doubtful they will with a few months extra time. Our current timeline gives maintainers another seven weeks to resolve issues, before x11-libs/qt:3 will be package.masked. Usually the approach in these situations is to have a big tracker bug for qt3 removal and a million blocker bugs against individual packages. There is a tracker bug, I should have mentioned it in the original mail: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283429 Please file bugs blocking the tracker for any package you think is important and doesn't have a Qt4 version or replacement yet. If there is a Qt4 version, but not yet stable, then stable requests should be filed, which also block the tracker. The Qt team will also go through the tree and file bugs for all remaining packages within the next couple of weeks. Plus, you might decide that one or two of the blockers really are critical, and decide to work with those maintainers more closely or escalate the issue. Sure. As I said in the original mail: We are dedicated to do anything we reasonably can to make sure that Qt4 versions or equivalents of the remaining Qt3 packages in the portage tree are available. I believe we can work things out in the next seven weeks, and otherwise we could reconsider the timeline. But we need short-term goals, otherwise it will take forever to get things done. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
[gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
As announced 5 months ago[1], Gentoo's Qt team now officially deprecates usage of x11-libs/qt:3 and packages depending on this version of Qt. The only supported and maintained version of Qt, both by the upstream developers (Nokia) and the Gentoo Qt Project, is now only version 4 (specifically =4.5.3). As a result we have decided on a policy and timeline for the removal of qt:3 and ebuilds depending on it. We are dedicated to do anything we reasonably can to make sure that Qt4 versions or equivalents of the remaining Qt3 packages in the portage tree are available. The deprecated ebuilds for qt:3, and packages using it, will remain available in the community-maintained kde-sunset overlay. # Timeline # 2010-01-01: * mark qt:3 as deprecated with ewarn * mask qt3 useflag in profiles * add ewarn to qt3.eclass with link to removal policy * prepare news item about qt:3 deprecation and future removal 2010-01-21: * Qt team meeting: discuss actions to be taken regarding remaining pkgs that use qt:3 2010-02-21: * mask qt:3 and depending ebuilds, pending removal 2010-03-21: * remove qt:3 and depending ebuilds from the tree * remove masks * clean profiles from qt3 remnants * mark qt3.eclass as deprecated pending later removal # Policy for remaining ebuilds depending on qt:3 # * if Qt3 optional, remove this option * if Qt4 depending version stable, remove Qt3 depending versions * if Qt4 depending version in testing, mark stable, then remove older versions * if no Qt4 version in tree, get Qt4 version in testing by 2010-01-21 and stable by 2010-02-21 * if no Qt4 version exists, check for equivalent/replacement packages, and mask by 2010-02-21 Note: for packages that currently have no version marked stable, the references to stabling Qt4 versions obviously don't apply. 1: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev-announce/msg_d851e05567d538b662f34de8dfdb7316.xml Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer, Gentoo Qt Project lead __
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Em 30-12-2009 15:14, Ben de Groot escreveu: As announced 5 months ago[1], Gentoo's Qt team now officially deprecates usage of x11-libs/qt:3 and packages depending on this version of Qt. The only supported and maintained version of Qt, both by the upstream developers (Nokia) and the Gentoo Qt Project, is now only version 4 (specifically =4.5.3). As a result we have decided on a policy and timeline for the removal of qt:3 and ebuilds depending on it. We are dedicated to do anything we reasonably can to make sure that Qt4 versions or equivalents of the remaining Qt3 packages in the portage tree are available. The deprecated ebuilds for qt:3, and packages using it, will remain available in the community-maintained kde-sunset overlay. # Timeline # 2010-01-01: * mark qt:3 as deprecated with ewarn * mask qt3 useflag in profiles * add ewarn to qt3.eclass with link to removal policy * prepare news item about qt:3 deprecation and future removal 2010-01-21: * Qt team meeting: discuss actions to be taken regarding remaining pkgs that use qt:3 2010-02-21: * mask qt:3 and depending ebuilds, pending removal 2010-03-21: * remove qt:3 and depending ebuilds from the tree * remove masks * clean profiles from qt3 remnants * mark qt3.eclass as deprecated pending later removal # Policy for remaining ebuilds depending on qt:3 # * if Qt3 optional, remove this option * if Qt4 depending version stable, remove Qt3 depending versions * if Qt4 depending version in testing, mark stable, then remove older versions * if no Qt4 version in tree, get Qt4 version in testing by 2010-01-21 and stable by 2010-02-21 * if no Qt4 version exists, check for equivalent/replacement packages, and mask by 2010-02-21 Note: for packages that currently have no version marked stable, the references to stabling Qt4 versions obviously don't apply. 1: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev-announce/msg_d851e05567d538b662f34de8dfdb7316.xml Cheers, A question: My systems don't use qt3 use flag since six months ago, but using qt3support USE FLAG. It's sane keep this flag set in make.conf? Thanks for now. p.s.: sorry if this is not the place to this question. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAks7ui8ACgkQ35zeJy7JhCiAxACgo/ebR4o+/gQa9/1+xjSTV0w8 kLoAoIueeG1xBlqwAR5XqBX1TrkqzRd5 =IquM -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
2009/12/30 Zhu Sha Zang zhushaz...@yahoo.com.br: Cheers, A question: My systems don't use qt3 use flag since six months ago, but using qt3support USE FLAG. It's sane keep this flag set in make.conf? If you use KDE or anything else that depends on the qt3support use flag, then it is a requirement. qt3support isn't Qt3, it is just an extra part of the Qt4 api for easing Qt3 - Qt4 porting. HTH Espen
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation and removal policy
2009/12/30 Zhu Sha Zang zhushaz...@yahoo.com.br: A question: My systems don't use qt3 use flag since six months ago, but using qt3support USE FLAG. It's sane keep this flag set in make.conf? Absolutely. That useflag is also enabled by default in the desktop profile, because KDE4 depends on it. Qt3support is a Qt4 module and does not depend on qt:3. It is used to make it easier for developers to port Qt3 apps to Qt4. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
Doug Goldstein wrote: MythTV still uses Qt3 and there is NO way that the Qt4 based MythTV could even remotely be considered stable. It is still undergoing constantly changing and there are many codepaths that are incomplete. We can re-assess the situation when the time comes, early next year. There is still time, so we'll see. Of course MythTV is quite a major application, so we may hold on to Qt3 for a bit longer because of it. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
Josh Saddler wrote: Wait a minute. Qt3 is deprecated, but people are still adding new Qt3-based packages to the tree: On the 26th, scarabeus added gerix, as seen on our front page p.g.o feed: net-wireless/gerix-0.20 Qt3 Based aircrack GUI . . . wtf? Indeed, the developer in question had forgotten we had agreed to this new policy... This prompted me to announce this on list. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
Jesús Guerrero wrote: On Tue, July 28, 2009 09:29, Hanno Böck wrote: While I fully understand that people want to deprecate old cruft, I assume this is far too early. (just think back how long it took us to deprecate gtk+-1) I fully agree with this thought. The qt4 world is simply nowhere near as complete and usable (nor stable either, which is worse) as the qt3 one is. I'm still on kde 3 and my previous three attemps to switch to kde 4 all ended up in the conclusion that kde 4 is far from being stable yet. It has tons of regressions. Please note that you need to make a distinction between Qt4 and KDE4! The KDE team had already decided to move KDE3 to an overlay early next year, with the release of 4.4. We as Qt team are just following suit. It's just that the KDE team hasn't made as public an announcement yet. A KDE 4.3 version is supposed to be marked stable within the next few months, and this then clears the way for KDE3 deprecation. When KDE3 will be removed early 2010, we as Qt team see no need to keep Qt3 around any longer either. We currently have no developers who are interested in maintaining it, and upstream doesn't either. Qt4 really is a major improvement over Qt3, especially where it concerns non-KDE apps. The amount of qt3 apps not having a sane or just no qt4 port yet is probably enormous. I also maintain such packages. [...] k3b, and [...] kaffeine These are KDE apps, so you need to address the KDE team about that, not the Qt team. But I'm assuming that if these have no working KDE4-based version by early next year, that's just too bad. And on the other hand, for those people who still want to use these applications, there will be the overlay. So, there are very few pure Qt3 apps, and even fewer that have no Qt4 port yet. The only major project I'm aware of is MythTV. If there are any others please let me know. The qt3 stuff is stable, this is not another xmms-like thing, it works, and it doesn't only work, but today it works *far better* than the qt4 newer alternatives, in most cases anyway. No, Qt4 works far better than Qt3, and has loads more features. Of course, it is up to the application developers how to use this. Do not confuse KDE4 instability with Qt4 instability. If you compare non-KDE Qt3 apps with non-KDE Qt4 apps, the huge improvements should be self-evident. Even so, our main argument is the question of maintenance. We want to stop wasting time on Qt3 related issues, especially as (1) it is no longer maintained upstream, and (2) its main consumer, KDE3, is scheduled for removal from portage. If you feel passionate about Qt3 and want to make the case for keeping it in portage, then step up and become its maintainer. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
On Mon, August 3, 2009 14:48, Ben de Groot wrote: Jesús Guerrero wrote: On Tue, July 28, 2009 09:29, Hanno Böck wrote: While I fully understand that people want to deprecate old cruft, I assume this is far too early. (just think back how long it took us to deprecate gtk+-1) I fully agree with this thought. The qt4 world is simply nowhere near as complete and usable (nor stable either, which is worse) as the qt3 one is. I'm still on kde 3 and my previous three attemps to switch to kde 4 all ended up in the conclusion that kde 4 is far from being stable yet. It has tons of regressions. Please note that you need to make a distinction between Qt4 and KDE4! The KDE team had already decided to move KDE3 to an overlay early next year, with the release of 4.4. We as Qt team are just following suit. It's just that the KDE team hasn't made as public an announcement yet. Fair enough :) A KDE 4.3 version is supposed to be marked stable within the next few months, and this then clears the way for KDE3 deprecation. Not until all the kde 3 stuff has a port. I mentioned k3b and kaffeine in the previous post. K3b/qt4 is *unusable* for a lot of people. Of course, as you say, there's still a lot of time for it to improve. So the whole issue will have to be re-evaluated when the time comes. When KDE3 will be removed early 2010, we as Qt team see no need to keep Qt3 around any longer either. We currently have no developers who are interested in maintaining it, and upstream doesn't either. Qt4 really is a major improvement over Qt3, especially where it concerns non-KDE apps. I fully agree about that. And as said on the other post, there's no way that I or anyone else can tell a developer what should s/he concentrate on. If qt3 must die, then die it shall. I am just stating my view about some aspects that might not have been considered by everyone. All in all, I am a big supporter of the do it yourself philosophy: if something doesn't suit you, fix it yourself, which means that if I truly need a qt3 program I will take care myself. I am not going to scream around the lists asking for support from anyone if qt3 becomes unsupported, and I fully understand the aim behind this move, and agree with it because I think that we must continue moving forward, and not fixing ancient stuff which can only get worse and messier. However, one can agree with the general picture while having some doubts with specifics aspects (or just mere curiosity). The amount of qt3 apps not having a sane or just no qt4 port yet is probably enormous. I also maintain such packages. [...] k3b, and [...] kaffeine These are KDE apps, so you need to address the KDE team about that, not the Qt team. But I'm assuming that if these have no working KDE4-based version by early next year, that's just too bad. And on the other hand, for those people who still want to use these applications, there will be the overlay. So, there are very few pure Qt3 apps, and even fewer that have no Qt4 port yet. The only major project I'm aware of is MythTV. If there are any others please let me know. The qt3 stuff is stable, this is not another xmms-like thing, it works, and it doesn't only work, but today it works *far better* than the qt4 newer alternatives, in most cases anyway. No, Qt4 works far better than Qt3, and has loads more features. Of course, it is up to the application developers how to use this. Do not confuse KDE4 instability with Qt4 instability. If you compare non-KDE Qt3 apps with non-KDE Qt4 apps, the huge improvements should be self-evident. Leaving the semantics apart, the fact is that there's no kde3 without qt3, and users might miss some *important* apps like kaffeine or k3b. A user doesn't care if the application links with kdelibs or not. The fact is that even if kde is not qt, and qt is not kde, it comes without a doubt that there must be a synchrony on the move between the two teams. Otherwise the final user is which suffers. If both are to be removed from portage at the same time, then it's fine, some users might miss some applications but well, they'll eventually find their way after screaming for a while on the forums. I am sure that whatever the decision and the timings are they will be for the best nonetheless. :) If we leave that semantic stuff apart as I said, I think that very few persons will agree that k3b/qt4 is better than the qt3 version. Actually it's the other way around. The qt4 port is too unstable. Yes, it's not qt4 fault, and I am not even saying that k3b is a showstoper: that's open for discussion. I am just signaling it as one of the offended apps :) If you feel passionate about Qt3 and want to make the case for keeping it in portage, then step up and become its maintainer. Not really. I use just a couple of qt3/kde3 programs, and not that much. All I just wanted is to shake this topic a bit to hear what people and developers think about this. An interesting thread.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
Ben de Groot wrote: Dear fellow devs, We would like to draw your attention to the fact that the Gentoo Qt team now officially discourages further usage of Qt3. Version 3 is no longer being developed or supported upstream. All users are strongly encouraged to use Qt version 4 where applicable. This is gentoo-dev-announce material. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
While I fully understand that people want to deprecate old cruft, I assume this is far too early. (just think back how long it took us to deprecate gtk+-1) I'm still on kde 3 and my previous three attemps to switch to kde 4 all ended up in the conclusion that kde 4 is far from being stable yet. It has tons of regressions. The amount of qt3 apps not having a sane or just no qt4 port yet is probably enormous. I also maintain such packages. Though we don't know what the situation is in 6 months, I'd assume that there's no chance we can consider qt3 fully deprecated then. -- Hanno Böck Blog: http://www.hboeck.de/ GPG: 3DBD3B20 Jabber/Mail:ha...@hboeck.de http://schokokeks.org - professional webhosting signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
On Tue, July 28, 2009 09:29, Hanno Böck wrote: While I fully understand that people want to deprecate old cruft, I assume this is far too early. (just think back how long it took us to deprecate gtk+-1) I fully agree with this thought. The qt4 world is simply nowhere near as complete and usable (nor stable either, which is worse) as the qt3 one is. I'm still on kde 3 and my previous three attemps to switch to kde 4 all ended up in the conclusion that kde 4 is far from being stable yet. It has tons of regressions. kde4 is just unusable for serious world. Magnificent work, yes, and some programs can be used without too much problem. But kde4 as a whole just can't be still compared to kde3.x The amount of qt3 apps not having a sane or just no qt4 port yet is probably enormous. I also maintain such packages. There's absolutely no match at all in the linux world for k3b, and whomever has used the qt4 port will agree that's it's unstable and very far in which regards features to the qt3 version. There are lots of qt3 apps that have no equivalent for qt4. I happen to like kaffeine, I am pretty sure that everyone else can name a couple of other examples. Being that said, of course, there's no way that we can impose devs and maintainers which to support. It's their choice. All I say is that, to me, this deserves a much dedicated and deep thought. The qt3 stuff is stable, this is not another xmms-like thing, it works, and it doesn't only work, but today it works *far better* than the qt4 newer alternatives, in most cases anyway. -- Jesús Guerrero
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Ben de Grootyng...@gentoo.org wrote: Dear fellow devs, We would like to draw your attention to the fact that the Gentoo Qt team now officially discourages further usage of Qt3. Version 3 is no longer being developed or supported upstream. All users are strongly encouraged to use Qt version 4 where applicable. This means that we request that no new Qt3-based packages will be introduced to the portage tree. Also, where there is a choice, Qt4 should be preferred over Qt3 by default. We will still do some minimal maintenance and support on the existing Qt3 libs and applications for about another 6 months. This will give application maintainers the time to upgrade or look for alternatives. After this period we will move the Qt3 libs and apps along with KDE3 into an overlay where users of those legacy packages can maintain them. If you have a package for which both Qt3 and Qt4 versions exist, please have the Qt4-based version marked stable (if it isn't already) within the next few months and remove the legacy Qt3-based version, if possible. Thanks, Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt team lead MythTV still uses Qt3 and there is NO way that the Qt4 based MythTV could even remotely be considered stable. It is still undergoing constantly changing and there are many codepaths that are incomplete. -- Doug Goldstein
Re: [gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
Ben de Groot wrote: Dear fellow devs, We would like to draw your attention to the fact that the Gentoo Qt team now officially discourages further usage of Qt3. Version 3 is no longer being developed or supported upstream. All users are strongly encouraged to use Qt version 4 where applicable. Wait a minute. Qt3 is deprecated, but people are still adding new Qt3-based packages to the tree: On the 26th, scarabeus added gerix, as seen on our front page p.g.o feed: net-wireless/gerix-0.20 Qt3 Based aircrack GUI . . . wtf? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] Qt3 deprecation
Dear fellow devs, We would like to draw your attention to the fact that the Gentoo Qt team now officially discourages further usage of Qt3. Version 3 is no longer being developed or supported upstream. All users are strongly encouraged to use Qt version 4 where applicable. This means that we request that no new Qt3-based packages will be introduced to the portage tree. Also, where there is a choice, Qt4 should be preferred over Qt3 by default. We will still do some minimal maintenance and support on the existing Qt3 libs and applications for about another 6 months. This will give application maintainers the time to upgrade or look for alternatives. After this period we will move the Qt3 libs and apps along with KDE3 into an overlay where users of those legacy packages can maintain them. If you have a package for which both Qt3 and Qt4 versions exist, please have the Qt4-based version marked stable (if it isn't already) within the next few months and remove the legacy Qt3-based version, if possible. Thanks, Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt team lead
