Re: Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > On 05/20/2013 10:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: >>> On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge wrote: > J. Roeleveld wrote: >> I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of >> inodes. >> That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when >> storing lots of smaller files. > > I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). Laptop running full GNOME: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 154 1547012 Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 121 1215560 And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere else. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México >>> >>> That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is >>> pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems >>> like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit >>> files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) >>> on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless >>> you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused >>> software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. >> >> Unit files are not software; they are data. >> >> And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I >> don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any >> other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in >> /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my >> life. >> >> Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, >> if they really are that worried about systemd "infecting" their >> systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, >> backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC >> maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. >> >> Get over it. >> >>> Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on >>> their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. >>> This push to make systemd a "first level citizen" or whatever reeks of >>> marketing. >> >> If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And >> systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or >> not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and >> more Gentoo users are running with systemd. >> >> If some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their >> systems with "systemd" on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, >> put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. >> If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one >> OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove >> the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in >> INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. >> >> Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care >> about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and >> just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If >> Gentoo is really about choice. >> >>> If there is desire among users for unit files, they can >>> contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like >>> they're hard to write. >> >> So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. >> >> Regards. >> -- >> Canek Peláez Valdés >> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación >> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México >> > > It seems that I've stepped on a few toes in calling INSTALL_MASK a hack. > Hacks aren't necessarily bad; if anything it shows that there's interest > in supporting something but perhaps not enough time or manpower to > implement a more robust solution. If adding one or two directories to > that variable will nuke any unit files, consider me happy. As I was, when I used to put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK. > systemd is certainly a choice, but it is no more deserving of > consideration than any other init system. I don't see anyone calling for > runit to be a 'first level citizen'. I wonder why that is. Probably because is used by a really small number of users, contrary to systemd > Again, if > INSTALL_MASKing openrc dirs will get rid of init scripts for systemd > users, then perhaps INSTALL_MASK is the best we have for now and should > make use of it. I never said that it wasn't suitable to use. Then we agree. > As for "complaining" about policy, what
Re: Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users
On 05/20/2013 10:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: >> On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >>> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: > I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of > inodes. > That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when > storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds >>> >>> (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). >>> >>> Laptop running full GNOME: >>> >>> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc >>> 154 1547012 >>> >>> Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: >>> >>> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc >>> 121 1215560 >>> >>> And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are >>> going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere >>> else. >>> >>> Regards. >>> -- >>> Canek Peláez Valdés >>> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación >>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México >>> >> >> That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is >> pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems >> like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit >> files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) >> on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless >> you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused >> software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. > > Unit files are not software; they are data. > > And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I > don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any > other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in > /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my > life. > > Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, > if they really are that worried about systemd "infecting" their > systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, > backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC > maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. > > Get over it. > >> Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on >> their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. >> This push to make systemd a "first level citizen" or whatever reeks of >> marketing. > > If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And > systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or > not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and > more Gentoo users are running with systemd. > > If some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their > systems with "systemd" on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, > put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. > If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one > OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove > the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in > INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. > > Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care > about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and > just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If > Gentoo is really about choice. > >> If there is desire among users for unit files, they can >> contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like >> they're hard to write. > > So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. > > Regards. > -- > Canek Peláez Valdés > Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación > Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México > It seems that I've stepped on a few toes in calling INSTALL_MASK a hack. Hacks aren't necessarily bad; if anything it shows that there's interest in supporting something but perhaps not enough time or manpower to implement a more robust solution. If adding one or two directories to that variable will nuke any unit files, consider me happy. systemd is certainly a choice, but it is no more deserving of consideration than any other init system. I don't see anyone calling for runit to be a 'first level citizen'. I wonder why that is. Again, if INSTALL_MASKing openrc dirs will get rid of init scripts for systemd users, then perhaps INSTALL_MASK is the best we have for now and should make use of it. I never said that it wasn't suitable to use. As for "complaining" about policy, what is the proper thing to do in a situation where someone questions the reasoning behind a decision? Are there links somewhere on Gentoo's website that outline the process for each important decision that the council's made? I think it'd be valuable information for people and keep individuals like you from telling others to "
Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users
On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > Well, I have to at least thank you for turning this from just a typical Gentoo flame-war into a breeding ground for LWN Quote of the Week candidates. Rich
Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge wrote: >>> J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. >>> >>> I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds >> >> (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). >> >> Laptop running full GNOME: >> >> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc >> 154 1547012 >> >> Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: >> >> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc >> 121 1215560 >> >> And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are >> going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere >> else. >> >> Regards. >> -- >> Canek Peláez Valdés >> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación >> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México >> > > That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is > pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems > like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit > files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) > on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless > you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused > software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Unit files are not software; they are data. And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my life. Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, if they really are that worried about systemd "infecting" their systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. Get over it. > Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on > their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. > This push to make systemd a "first level citizen" or whatever reeks of > marketing. If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and more Gentoo users are running with systemd. If some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their systems with "systemd" on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If Gentoo is really about choice. > If there is desire among users for unit files, they can > contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like > they're hard to write. So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users
On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge wrote: >> J. Roeleveld wrote: >>> I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of >>> inodes. >>> That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when >>> storing lots of smaller files. >> >> I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds > > (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). > > Laptop running full GNOME: > > # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc > 154 1547012 > > Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: > > # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc > 121 1215560 > > And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are > going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere > else. > > Regards. > -- > Canek Peláez Valdés > Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación > Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México > That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a "first level citizen" or whatever reeks of marketing. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write.
