Re: [gentoo-user] KDE4 overlay

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Am Freitag, 11. Januar 2008 schrieb Alan McKinnon:

> Anyone know where this overlay disappeared to?

http://genkdesvn.mailstation.de

HTH...

Dirk


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Re: [gentoo-user] Ebuilds for additional campaigns for games-strategy/wesnoth

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Am Freitag, 11. Januar 2008 schrieb Hemmann, Volker Armin:
> On Freitag, 11. Januar 2008, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> >
> > Before I open a bug for this, are ther any such ebuilds? I know they
> > don't exist in portage, but maybe in some overlay I'm not aware of.
>
> you can't do that because the user generated scenarios/campaigns are
> changing too much.

Why is that a problem?

> And the installing method from within wesnoth works fine - so what is the
> problem? The additional stuff is not that big.

It will be stored in the users homes, possibly ending up in multiple copies of 
the same stuff, but eventually with different versions. So I'd prefer a 
clean, systemwide installation.

Bye...

Dirk


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[gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[alain . didierjean]

Daniel Robbins offers to take back Gentoo leadership.
What about it ? Read
http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html

--
~adj~
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] HTML vs. Text messages (WAS: Is GWN dead?)

[Mick]

On Saturday 12 January 2008, Hal Martin wrote:
> I'll keep that in mind when I am sending email to the list from
> Thunderbird. I'm also aware that many corporations block HTML mail to
> lower the risk of a staff member opening up an infected/laced email
> (generally on a Windows computer) so text emails are more advantageous
> in that regard.
>
> Randy, why aren't you out here making sure everyone's mom is aware of
> all the thread hijacking going on?

Hmm, he may be waiting for you to do it, while you're explaining to all these 
moms out there why you may think that top-posting in this ML would be 
considered good netiquette?  BTW, I'm not condoning thread hi-jacking 
either . . .

To Dale: have you tried setting up new addresses in the Seamonkey's Address 
Book with  and <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and for 
each of these select to only send plain text messages?

From previous threads I remember that you can send plain text when you respond 
to a plain text message in this ML, but not otherwise.  This could be that 
you do not have both addresses above set up to only send plain text format.

WARNING: I have not yet used Seamonkey, but vaguely remember something like 
this in the old Mozilla/Netscape features.

HTH.
-- 
Regards,
Mick


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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 12 January 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Daniel Robbins offers to take back Gentoo leadership.
> What about it ? Read
> http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html

I've kept very quiet about Gentoo politics for a long time, but Daniel's 
blog has promoted me to finally open my mouth and express my views.

Daniel is in a tricky position - he is the legal President of the 
Foundation but also has no role in the project in real life.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Trustees as a group have ever 
done a single thing for Gentoo in three years. The fundamental 
responsibility of Trustees is to ensure that legal paperwork is 
properly filed, they did not even do this. Grant Goodyear is getting 
some things done but he's doing it as one person. Chris is in a similar 
position. But the Trustees, as a body with specific duties, simply does 
not exist in any reasonable definition of Trustees.

I used to read -dev and various council mailing lists a long time ago as 
I wanted to keep up to date with these things as a user. I unsubscribed 
because I couldn't stand the constant bickering going on there. OSS 
projects always have their laundry out in the public eye and some 
conflict is always present but Gentoo management manages to take this 
to a whole new level - from on outsider's point of view, the bickering 
is done for the sake of bickering, and it does not result in decisions 
being made or solutions found.

Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here.

The council - I'm not up to date on that aspect so can't comment.

When I read about current Gentoo politics I can't help but constantly 
think of just one word:

Stampede.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE4 overlay

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 12 January 2008, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Friday 11 January 2008 22:26:34 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Anyone know where this overlay disappeared to?
>
> It moved to git. Assuming dev-util/git is installed:

Yes, that was it, thanks.

I assumed I had git installed.
I was wrong.

> # layman -f && layman -d kde && layman -a kde
>
> Having said that KDE 4.0.0 should show up as package.mask'ed in
> gentoo-x86 within a few days. Eclasses for this has just been
> submitted to -dev@ ...

So quick? I wasn't expecting them to show up so rapidly.
Then again, the kde4 overlay has been around for a long time, so perhaps 
it's not surprising at all.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE4 overlay

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 12 January 2008, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Am Freitag, 11. Januar 2008 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> > Anyone know where this overlay disappeared to?
>
> http://genkdesvn.mailstation.de

Thanks Dirk



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] HTML vs. Text messages (WAS: Is GWN dead?)

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
>
> Hmm, he may be waiting for you to do it, while you're explaining to all these 
> moms out there why you may think that top-posting in this ML would be 
> considered good netiquette?  BTW, I'm not condoning thread hi-jacking 
> either . . .
>
> To Dale: have you tried setting up new addresses in the Seamonkey's Address 
> Book with  and <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and for 
> each of these select to only send plain text messages?
>
> From previous threads I remember that you can send plain text when you 
> respond 
> to a plain text message in this ML, but not otherwise.  This could be that 
> you do not have both addresses above set up to only send plain text format.
>
> WARNING: I have not yet used Seamonkey, but vaguely remember something like 
> this in the old Mozilla/Netscape features.
>
> HTH.
>   

Thanks.  I didn't know you could change that in the address book.  Can
you tell me how this one comes through?  It should be plain text,
hopefully only plain text.

Neat trick.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] HTML vs. Text messages (WAS: Is GWN dead?)

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:33:24 -0600, Dale wrote:

> Thanks.  I didn't know you could change that in the address book.  Can
> you tell me how this one comes through?  It should be plain text,
> hopefully only plain text.

It is :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Trekkers work out in the `He's Dead Gym'.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:29:34 +0100, b.n. wrote:

> Moreover, I'd go on to say that the fact Gentoo is installable from
> almost every reasonable Linux-based live cd is a defining Gentoo
> feature.

It doesn't even need a live CD. I installed Ubuntu when I first got this
laptop, because I needed a Linux environment quickly and I had an Ubuntu
disc. I then installed Gentoo from within the installed Ubuntu OS.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 22: Childproof


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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo LiveUSB

[Florian Philipp]

On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 15:27 -0500, Ritesh Kumar wrote:
> On Jan 11, 2008 3:00 PM, Alan McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> On Friday 11 January 2008, Anthony E. Caudel wrote:
> > 2nd question: I must be dense on this one so someone help me
> out.
> > Since a USB stick is seen as a hard drive, why can't I do a
> standard 
> > install to it? Is it because until lately they haven't been
> large
> > enough? I'm thinking of using an 8GB one.
> 
> 
> There's a few reasons:
> 
> 1. The memory used on those devices has a limited life - about
> 100,000 
> writes for the good ones and maybe 10,000 for the bad ones.
> With a
> standard install, frequent writes are the norm (think cache
> and other
> similar things). This usually ends up at the same spot on the
> disk,
> meaning your new install will last about a month if you are
> lucky. 
> There are ways around this, for instance how a LiveCD does
> things.
> 
> You are right about the re-write life of flash media. However, there
> are filesystems which can help by not writing to the same location in
> the flash media again and again. I recall JFFS2 being a such flash
> filesystem which is available for linux. 
>  
> 

AFAIK JFFS2 and such alike are of no use on standard USB-sticks because
they have their own system of wear levelling[1] and hide the actual
layout from the OS. They are only useful on embedded systems and stuff
like that where there is no such abstraction layer in firmware.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_levelling
> 


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Re: [gentoo-user] HTML vs. Text messages (WAS: Is GWN dead?)

[Mick]

On Saturday 12 January 2008, Dale wrote:
> Mick wrote:
> > Hmm, he may be waiting for you to do it, while you're explaining to all
> > these moms out there why you may think that top-posting in this ML would
> > be considered good netiquette?  BTW, I'm not condoning thread hi-jacking
> > either . . .
> >
> > To Dale: have you tried setting up new addresses in the Seamonkey's
> > Address Book with  and
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and for each of these select to only send plain
> > text messages?
> >
> > From previous threads I remember that you can send plain text when you
> > respond to a plain text message in this ML, but not otherwise.  This
> > could be that you do not have both addresses above set up to only send
> > plain text format.
> >
> > WARNING: I have not yet used Seamonkey, but vaguely remember something
> > like this in the old Mozilla/Netscape features.
> >
> > HTH.
>
> Thanks.  I didn't know you could change that in the address book.  Can
> you tell me how this one comes through?  It should be plain text,
> hopefully only plain text.
>
> Neat trick.  ;-)

OK, this is plain text as I can see in the message headers:
===
Content-Type: text/plain;
  charset=ISO-8859-1
===

. . . but you responded to a plain text message from the list, which as I 
recall you could always do.  The problem I believe is when you start a new 
message.  Email me off list with a new message and I will confirm if it is 
also plain text.
-- 
Regards,
Mick


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Re: [gentoo-user] Ebuilds for additional campaigns for games-strategy/wesnoth

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Samstag, 12. Januar 2008, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Am Freitag, 11. Januar 2008 schrieb Hemmann, Volker Armin:
> > On Freitag, 11. Januar 2008, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> > > Before I open a bug for this, are ther any such ebuilds? I know they
> > > don't exist in portage, but maybe in some overlay I'm not aware of.
> >
> > you can't do that because the user generated scenarios/campaigns are
> > changing too much.
>
> Why is that a problem?

how do you make ebuilds for something that gets replaced on an  absolutly 
random basis with no old versions?

>
> > And the installing method from within wesnoth works fine - so what is the
> > problem? The additional stuff is not that big.
>
> It will be stored in the users homes, possibly ending up in multiple copies
> of the same stuff, but eventually with different versions. So I'd prefer a
> clean, systemwide installation.

the clean 'system wide' installation does not work, because the scenarios 
might override stuff. Putting them into home makes the whole thing clean in 
the first place.


-- 
Conclusions 
 In a straight-up fight, the Empire squashes the Federation like a bug. Even 
with its numerical advantage removed, the Empire would still squash the 
Federation like a bug. Accept it. -Michael Wong 
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Jil Larner]

Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the
foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using
gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't
look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the
Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see
politic, for my eyes were probably closed.
It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its
community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to
communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must
admit I'm sometime lost.

Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ?
Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he
foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too
late. Once more, to quote Matrix, "the problem is choice". In Free
Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved
in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers.
Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could
someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what
they were supposed to do : what should they have done ?

Thanks.

Alan McKinnon a écrit :
> On Saturday 12 January 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Daniel Robbins offers to take back Gentoo leadership.
>> What about it ? Read
>> http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html
> 
> I've kept very quiet about Gentoo politics for a long time, but Daniel's 
> blog has promoted me to finally open my mouth and express my views.
> 
> Daniel is in a tricky position - he is the legal President of the 
> Foundation but also has no role in the project in real life.
> 
> There is no evidence whatsoever that the Trustees as a group have ever 
> done a single thing for Gentoo in three years. The fundamental 
> responsibility of Trustees is to ensure that legal paperwork is 
> properly filed, they did not even do this. Grant Goodyear is getting 
> some things done but he's doing it as one person. Chris is in a similar 
> position. But the Trustees, as a body with specific duties, simply does 
> not exist in any reasonable definition of Trustees.
> 
> I used to read -dev and various council mailing lists a long time ago as 
> I wanted to keep up to date with these things as a user. I unsubscribed 
> because I couldn't stand the constant bickering going on there. OSS 
> projects always have their laundry out in the public eye and some 
> conflict is always present but Gentoo management manages to take this 
> to a whole new level - from on outsider's point of view, the bickering 
> is done for the sake of bickering, and it does not result in decisions 
> being made or solutions found.
> 
> Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here.
> 
> The council - I'm not up to date on that aspect so can't comment.
> 
> When I read about current Gentoo politics I can't help but constantly 
> think of just one word:
> 
> Stampede.
> 
> 
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Mick]

On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote:
> Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the
> foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using
> gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't
> look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the
> Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see
> politic, for my eyes were probably closed.
> It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its
> community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to
> communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must
> admit I'm sometime lost.
>
> Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ?
> Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he
> foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too
> late. Once more, to quote Matrix, "the problem is choice". In Free
> Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved
> in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers.
> Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could
> someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what
> they were supposed to do : what should they have done ?
>
> Thanks.

I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that 
people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going.  From the little 
exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring 
depressingly true.  I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he 
suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should 
determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see 
how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree 
with.  See this excerpt of his below from OSNews.com in 2002:

"I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a 
profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can 
stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts 
exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like to 
do the same thing"

(I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much like to 
find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without 
having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.)

Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, 
especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to rest 
assured that there will be no conflict of interest.  On the other hand it 
seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill 
some rather significant responsibilities.  From what I read the current 
Gentoo administration and management setup does not seem to be able to behave 
with the professionalism required to achieve that.  This makes me anxious for 
the future of Gentoo.

Just my 2c's.
-- 
Regards,
Mick


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Re: [gentoo-user] HTML vs. Text messages (WAS: Is GWN dead?)

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 12 January 2008, Dale wrote:
>   
>>
>> Thanks.  I didn't know you could change that in the address book.  Can
>> you tell me how this one comes through?  It should be plain text,
>> hopefully only plain text.
>>
>> Neat trick.  ;-)
>> 
>
> OK, this is plain text as I can see in the message headers:
> ===
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>   charset=ISO-8859-1
> ===
>
> . . . but you responded to a plain text message from the list, which as I 
> recall you could always do.  The problem I believe is when you start a new 
> message.  Email me off list with a new message and I will confirm if it is 
> also plain text.
>   

But then it won't be to gentoo.org.  LOL  It may not work then.  ;-) 

I'll post something somewhere else.  Maybe someone will point out if it
is not plain text, I guess they will anyway.

Dale

:-)  :-)
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote:
>   
>> Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the
>> foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using
>> gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't
>> look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the
>> Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see
>> politic, for my eyes were probably closed.
>> It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its
>> community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to
>> communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must
>> admit I'm sometime lost.
>>
>> Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ?
>> Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he
>> foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too
>> late. Once more, to quote Matrix, "the problem is choice". In Free
>> Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved
>> in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers.
>> Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could
>> someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what
>> they were supposed to do : what should they have done ?
>>
>> Thanks.
>> 
>
> I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that 
> people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going.  From the little 
> exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring 
> depressingly true.  I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he 
> suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should 
> determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see 
> how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree 
> with.  See this excerpt of his below from OSNews.com in 2002:
>
> "I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a 
> profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can 
> stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts 
> exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like to 
> do the same thing"
>
> (I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much like 
> to 
> find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without 
> having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.)
>
> Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, 
> especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to rest 
> assured that there will be no conflict of interest.  On the other hand it 
> seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill 
> some rather significant responsibilities.  From what I read the current 
> Gentoo administration and management setup does not seem to be able to behave 
> with the professionalism required to achieve that.  This makes me anxious for 
> the future of Gentoo.
>
> Just my 2c's.
>   

I have been using Gentoo for about 4 or 5 years now.  I to think Gentoo
has well, lost its way.  It seems like a bunch of teenagers is running
it sometimes.  They decide something then go back a few steps when they
don't like the results.  Proctors come to mind on that.  Users seems to
be the last thing on the higher ups mind.  That is not good. 

I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some
things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about.

I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] HTML vs. Text messages (WAS: Is GWN dead?)

[Mick]

On Saturday 12 January 2008, Dale wrote:
> Mick wrote:

> > . . . but you responded to a plain text message from the list, which as I
> > recall you could always do.  The problem I believe is when you start a
> > new message.  Email me off list with a new message and I will confirm if
> > it is also plain text.
>
> But then it won't be to gentoo.org.  LOL  It may not work then.  ;-)

Doh!  Still asleep . . .  :))

> I'll post something somewhere else.  Maybe someone will point out if it
> is not plain text, I guess they will anyway.

I'll keep an eye out then for any new threads of yours and flame you if it is 
html, ha, ha!  :))
-- 
Regards,
Mick


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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Richard Marzan]

On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 07:34 -0600, Dale wrote:
> Mick wrote:
> > On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote:
> >   
> >> Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the
> >> foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using
> >> gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't
> >> look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the
> >> Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see
> >> politic, for my eyes were probably closed.
> >> It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its
> >> community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to
> >> communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must
> >> admit I'm sometime lost.
> >>
> >> Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ?
> >> Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he
> >> foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too
> >> late. Once more, to quote Matrix, "the problem is choice". In Free
> >> Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved
> >> in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers.
> >> Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could
> >> someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what
> >> they were supposed to do : what should they have done ?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >> 
> >
> > I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that 
> > people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going.  From the little 
> > exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring 
> > depressingly true.  I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he 
> > suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should 
> > determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see 
> > how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree 
> > with.  See this excerpt of his below from OSNews.com in 2002:
> >
> > "I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a 
> > profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can 
> > stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts 
> > exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like 
> > to 
> > do the same thing"
> >
> > (I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much like 
> > to 
> > find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without 
> > having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.)
> >
> > Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, 
> > especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to 
> > rest 
> > assured that there will be no conflict of interest.  On the other hand it 
> > seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill 
> > some rather significant responsibilities.  From what I read the current 
> > Gentoo administration and management setup does not seem to be able to 
> > behave 
> > with the professionalism required to achieve that.  This makes me anxious 
> > for 
> > the future of Gentoo.
> >
> > Just my 2c's.
> >   
> 
> I have been using Gentoo for about 4 or 5 years now.  I to think Gentoo
> has well, lost its way.  It seems like a bunch of teenagers is running
> it sometimes.  They decide something then go back a few steps when they
> don't like the results.  Proctors come to mind on that.  Users seems to
> be the last thing on the higher ups mind.  That is not good. 
> 
> I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some
> things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about.
> 
> I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 



 Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this
project. He has been a developer of several operating systems, including
Freebsd. I would, as a user, like for him to come back to the project,
if it means gentoo going back to the old way. On the other hand, his
major decisions with regard to gentoo should be voted on by the
developer/user community. I don't want gentoo to become another SuSE. I
don't want him to insidiously harm gentoo with the immunity of acting
president. Everything should be done in the open. There should be some
sort of constitution which protects gentoo from losing certain
principles or ethics. One of which is that it will always be free of
charge; at least from the gentoo foundation. He has to be, as acting
president, bound to a code of ethics or rules decided by the community.
It is clear that he cares for this project. He wants to come back but,
is he willing to come back as a leader under our conditions?

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Δημήτριος Ροπόκης]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:34:47 +0200, Dale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Mick wrote:

On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote:


Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the
foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using
gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't
look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the
Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see
politic, for my eyes were probably closed.. Could
someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what
they were supposed to do : what should they have done ?




I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some
things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about.

I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss.

Dale

:-)  :-)



Dear friends, I 'm Dimitrios Ropokis from Greece, I managed to translate  
fet- timetabling and smplayer
to Greek, I do not know an easy way to put fet on gentoo for download, I  
am not programmer,
smplayer is ok but now it is out of gentoo, my Toshiba laptop had 20 hours  
to compile open-office 2.3.1,
I can not install Option Globetrotter Umts-Data card,even to make Greek  
look good took a week,
but thanks to people like u, I am pleased for what I am doing, I help  
people to use linux,

because its a choice. Choice to communicate,to ask help and give help.
Most of it is knowledge. This is critical. The knowledge base of  
opensource is what next generations need.

And it is to your hands. Gentoo is too strong!!
Thank you!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Renat Golubchyk]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this
> project.

He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for
relevant news.


Cheers,
Renat

-- 
Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
durch die sie entstanden sind.
  (Einstein)


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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Hal Martin]

He states on his blog that he currently works for E*Trade, a company
specializing in electronic ticker tape services for individuals and
corporations.


-Hal


Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>>  Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this
>> project.
>> 
>
> He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for
> relevant news.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Renat
>
>   

-- 
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[gentoo-user] TTF Fonts

[Naiani Rosa de Barros]

Hi everyone.
I'd like to know if these instructions here
http://www.madeinclay.net/?p=8 are still valid for adding ttf fonts to
Gentoo. I don't remember what I did last time (more than 1 yr ago),
but I don't think it was the same procedure. The article on
Gentoo-Wiki seems outdated to me, so I'd appreciate if anyone could
tell me if this is the right way.

Thanks!

Naiani
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Richard Marzan]

On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 18:22 +0100, Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this
> > project.
> 
> He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for
> relevant news.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Renat
> 

Even more of a reason to bring him back!

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[David Relson]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:25:55 -0600
Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote:

...[snip]...

> You are missing the point of Gentoo then. We are NOT a binary distro
> (to repeat ad nauseum). If you want that kind of install, please
> change distros. I do find these other methods of install to be
> interesting though. Has anyone on this list ever used a PXE boot
> image to install?

I thought the point of gentoo was the ability to customize settings for
optimal performance/ and fit.   I see this customization as starting
during installation and continuing after that.  I also see it as
separate from _how_ the initial installation occurs.

Is it gentoo's goal to make the installation difficult so only a select
group can do the install?  Or is the goal to make gentoo a great
distro?  In the latter case, why not make the installation easy?

David
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[fire-eyes]

Alan McKinnon wrote:

On Saturday 12 January 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Daniel Robbins offers to take back Gentoo leadership.
What about it ? Read
http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html


I've kept very quiet about Gentoo politics for a long time, but Daniel's 
blog has promoted me to finally open my mouth and express my views.


Daniel is in a tricky position - he is the legal President of the 
Foundation but also has no role in the project in real life.


There is no evidence whatsoever that the Trustees as a group have ever 
done a single thing for Gentoo in three years. The fundamental 
responsibility of Trustees is to ensure that legal paperwork is 
properly filed, they did not even do this. Grant Goodyear is getting 
some things done but he's doing it as one person. Chris is in a similar 
position. But the Trustees, as a body with specific duties, simply does 
not exist in any reasonable definition of Trustees.


I used to read -dev and various council mailing lists a long time ago as 
I wanted to keep up to date with these things as a user. I unsubscribed 
because I couldn't stand the constant bickering going on there. OSS 
projects always have their laundry out in the public eye and some 
conflict is always present but Gentoo management manages to take this 
to a whole new level - from on outsider's point of view, the bickering 
is done for the sake of bickering, and it does not result in decisions 
being made or solutions found.


Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here.


Very strongly agree with Mr McCreesh (spelling?). While I respect his 
technical abilities and contributions, I believe his horrible attitude, 
clear trolling and ability to pit devs against each other, seemingly for 
fun, is far more harmful. That he wasn't gotten rid of early on is 
actually the biggest sign of problems in my eyes. That he has fans and 
followers is another.

--
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Re: [gentoo-user] TTF Fonts

[zou]

I think you could do this right by adding the fonts to fonts:/// (or 
something like this)


Naiani Rosa de Barros wrote:

Hi everyone.
I'd like to know if these instructions here
http://www.madeinclay.net/?p=8 are still valid for adding ttf fonts to
Gentoo. I don't remember what I did last time (more than 1 yr ago),
but I don't think it was the same procedure. The article on
Gentoo-Wiki seems outdated to me, so I'd appreciate if anyone could
tell me if this is the right way.

Thanks!

Naiani

--
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[gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[James]

Daniel Pielmeier  googlemail.com> writes:


> Again i recommend join gentoo-dev and you will see what is going on!

Excellent idea.

Is there a place where we can conveniently read this list, and not have
posting privileges?

An archive list server or such?


James




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[gentoo-user] Re: Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Michael Schmarck]

· Richard Marzan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>  Although he works for Microsoft,

Check your facts, please.

.

Michael Schmarck
-- 
printk ("scsi%d : Oh no Mr. Bill!\n", host->host_no);
linux-2.6.6/drivers/scsi/53c7xx.c


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[Kenneth Prugh]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:59:52 + (UTC)
James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Daniel Pielmeier  googlemail.com> writes:
> 
> 
> > Again i recommend join gentoo-dev and you will see what is going on!
> 
> Excellent idea.
> 
> Is there a place where we can conveniently read this list, and not
> have posting privileges?
> 
> An archive list server or such?
> 
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 

http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/

-- 
Ken69267


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Description: PGP signature

[gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[Michael Schmarck]

· Galevsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Jan 11, 2008 8:08 PM, Michael Schmarck
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > GRML ? Knoppix ? other LiveCD ? What for, man ?
>>
>> Oh, quite easy - to install Gentoo. That way, the knowledge of experts
>> in creating live CDs is leveraged. NIH is not a good point of view, if
>> you ask me.
>>
>> > Using extra rescue
>> > systems is a liberty, of course, but why should it be a must ? I
>>
>> Easy - to make use of expert knowledge. To save resources, as that's
>> obviously a scarcity in Gentoo.
> 
> Not sure that in the whole Gentoo community we cannot find someone not
> interested in dev stuff but okay to build CD releases...

Well, it seems that such a person could not be found, if you
take into consideration that the Install CD is somewhat old
by now.

> I can 
> understand the understaffed argument, but in that case don't tell me
> that install CD is bad,  tell me Gentoo has no resource for, but the
> debate is "does Gentoo need install CD or not ?".

Well, I do think, that a "suboptimal" install CD is indeed bad.
A non-existant install CD would be better, as far as I'm concerned.

>> > see no gain in downloading and burning one more system...
>>
>> Uhm? That doesn't make sense. Downloading GRML is no worse than
>> downloading a Gentoo Live CD.
> 
> Yes it is.  Portage is not included,  

So? The portage tree isn't that big. Only 140m, or so.

> you depend on other systems that 
> don't mind about Gentoo needs 

They don't need to. They just "have to" provide a way to boot a system
and offer a way to chroot.


Michael Schmarck
-- 
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish,
and he'll invite himself over for dinner.
-- Calvin Keegan


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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?

[Michael Schmarck]

· Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Michael Schmarck schrieb:
>> · Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>   
>>> Right, basicly telling people "You have to depend on / use other distros
>>> to install our OS, cause we are not able to / don´t have time to provide
>>> this" sounds a little fishy. It makes Gentoo look incomplete.
>>> 
>>
>> Well, but providing outdated (ie. non-usable for new systems) install
>> medium is also very bad. And if the installer doesn't work (satisfactory),
>> then that gives an even worse impression.
>>
>> Michael Schmarck
>>   
> I agree.
> And i don't think that this is contradicting my statement, does it?

Depends. You're saying, that Gentoo might look to be incomplete, if
it were to rely on other distributions (Live CDs). I'm saying, that
it currently already looks to be incomplete, despite there being a
install CD - a CD, which is outdated.


Michael Schmarck
-- 
You can't have everything.  Where would you put it?
-- Steven Wright


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[gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[Michael Schmarck]

· James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Daniel Pielmeier  googlemail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>> Again i recommend join gentoo-dev and you will see what is going on!
> 
> Excellent idea.
> 
> Is there a place where we can conveniently read this list, and not have
> posting privileges?
> 
> An archive list server or such?

Gmane. They offer a NNTP/Usenet access at nttp://news.gmane.org
and also a quite good web access at http://gmane.org/.

Michael Schmarck
-- 
E Out of DATA, 0:1


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[gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[James]

Michael Schmarck  habmalnefrage.de> writes:


> Well, actually, I never used a Gentoo install CD to install Gentoo. I
> also don't quite understand, why anyone would need such a beast. 

Folks new to gentoo, would find it suspicious, for a distro not to have
it's own install. Other forks of Gentoo have their install methods.

For those new to gentoo, it's like getting married without a honeymoon
IMHO.


> To install Gentoo, I'd boot my favorite "rescue system" (GRMl nowadays,
> Knoppix back then, but IMO Knoppix is too "fat" for *this* *task*)
> and install from there. No need for an install CD.

OK, fine, then why doesn't of the persons that says it so easy, just take
a GRMl (or whatever)  cd and add the minimal (non gui) stuff to the same 
cd and make a simple to use 'install cd' for gentoo that is unofficial?
Wouldn't it be easy for all of those whose answer this installation 
question over and over and over, to make a basic install cd on top of GRMl
once and be done with it? After all very little would change, except when
the GRMl cd changes. Time the updates with changes int he 
GRMl cd


> As far as I'm concerned, the Gentoo install CD could easily be dropped
> without a loss.

Well, I differ with this statement 100%. What, IMHO, needs to happened is the
whole install process be changed to a minimal working kernel and basic tools.
Then you fork the install in the direction as to what the system is to be 
used for: embedded-gentoo, firewall, bridge, managed switch, server 
(mail, web, dns, terminal etc etc) and last the complicated nightmare of 
a workstation  (kde vs gnome vs etc etc).

Of of the best features of Gentoo, is how easy maintaining and managing a 
server is. 99.999% of the issues with updates to gentoo, are related to
the wide variety of packages available for workstations..?
This approach could be used to build a basic installation with support for a
wide variety of hardware, within a particular architecture. Then
as the amount of installation packages are increase, logically break the
installation across multiple (media) CDs. For example something like this

Basic system complete packagingworkstation
kernel, baselayout...   X, kde, gnome, 


(very crude idea that needs to be refined.)

It's the graphics and installation of thousands of various gui-packages 
(and using a gui that installs on any machine) that is the nightmare, IMHO.

So yes, drop the (graphical) liveCD 0ption and create  installation
method(s) that begin simple (therefore easy to maintain and update)
and becomes more involved depending on what you are trying to build from
gentoo.. Some of the x86 embedded devices, such a GNAP, use
older versions of compilers and sources. Their install could fork
much earlier, depending on the current state of the architecture.
Or maybe the necessary cross-compile environment would be set up,
along a particular fork.


A robust, well defined installation semantic, is fundamental to
any successful distro, IMHO. Exactly what that semantic entails
should be widely discussed, refined for ease of maintenance and something
that uniquely leverages Gentoo's strengths. 

As processors continue to  shrink and have a lower power consumption, 
the natural migration to mobile (embedded systems) is the future, 
methinks. Gentoo's strength in the embedded space combined with 
being a source code flexible system puts gentoo in the forefront of 
this revolution. However, if installing gentoo, when asked, gives
dozens of different answers, depending on a variety of asymmetrical, 
emotionally charged opinions, then the distro will  continue to 
languish, and be a reclusive club for experts, or those
with very think skin (to which I belong )

For example, when show skiing recently, I met a kid that had a camera
mounted on top of his helmet connecting a coax cable (and power) to
a very small (temperature rated) embedded system. He just replaced
the SD media when he runs out of disk space. That's the kind of project
where embedded gentoo and gentoo workstations need  "seemless"
integration.

The greater Gentoo community should decide what is best for gentoo and 
the installation semantic is the most important piece of 
advertisment/marketing that the  Gentoo organization will ever 
devise, IMHO.


James




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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Samstag, 12. Januar 2008, James wrote:
> Daniel Pielmeier  googlemail.com> writes:
> > Again i recommend join gentoo-dev and you will see what is going on!
>
> Excellent idea.
>
> Is there a place where we can conveniently read this list, and not have
> posting privileges?
>
> An archive list server or such?
>
>
> James

http://marc.info
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[Qian Qiao]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

David Relson wrote:
> Is it gentoo's goal to make the installation difficult so only a select
> group can do the install?  Or is the goal to make gentoo a great
> distro?  In the latter case, why not make the installation easy?

The installation isn't difficult, Gentoo LiveCD or not, I'll elaborate:

- - With Gentoo LiveCD:
* Boot
* Config network and load necessary modules (if it's not done automatically)
* fdisk
* mount
* download and unpack stage tarball
* chroot, config /etc/resolv.conf
* emerge --sync
* choose the correct profile
* config /etc/make.conf
* emerge -e system
* emerge your kernel
* emerge necessary tools
* reboot

- - Any other LiveCD, running linux distro:
* Boot
* Config network and load necessary modules (if it's not done automatically)
* fdisk
* mount
* download and unpack stage tarball
* chroot, config /etc/resolv.conf
* emerge --sync
* choose the correct profile
* config /etc/make.conf
* emerge -e system
* emerge your kernel
* emerge necessary tools
* reboot

OMG, no difference at all, so how is installing with any other LiveCD
harder?

I will say that being able to install Gentoo from any linux
distro/LiveCD makes it unique and special, I will also elaborate:

* To install Windoze, you need to get a copy of Windoze CD
* To install FreeBSD, you need to get a copy of FreeBSD CD
* To install OpenBSD, you need to get a copy of OpenBSD CD
* To install NetBSD, you need to get a copy of NetBSD CD
* To install Solaris, you need to get a copy of Solaris CD
* To install MacOS, you need to get a copy of MacOS CD
* To install Aix, you need a copy of Aix CD
* To install RedHat, you need a copy of RedHat CD
* To install Ubuntu, you need a copy of Ubuntu CD
* etc etc
* To install Gentoo, you need a copy of *any random* linux live CD or
even inside you current Linux

I can understand why you guys think we are so compelled to have a Gentoo
LiveCD, because every other OS does, and to be honest, that is exactly
the reason that stops you guys thinking out of the box, in what way is
being able to install Gentoo from any LiveCD/distro a bad thing? In
everyway it should be considered one of Gentoo's strengths?

- -- Joe

- --
A computer scientist is someone who, when told "go to hell", considers
the "go to" harmful rather than the destination.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Samstag, 12. Januar 2008, Richard Marzan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 07:34 -0600, Dale wrote:
> > Mick wrote:
> > > On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote:
> > >> Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the
> > >> foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using
> > >> gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't
> > >> look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the
> > >> Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see
> > >> politic, for my eyes were probably closed.
> > >> It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility,
> > >> its community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many
> > >> ways to communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.)
> > >> that I must admit I'm sometime lost.
> > >>
> > >> Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening
> > >> ? Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel
> > >> he foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it
> > >> is too late. Once more, to quote Matrix, "the problem is choice". In
> > >> Free Software, there are often choices where the community can get
> > >> involved in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not,
> > >> legal papers. Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an
> > >> Iceberg. Could someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people
> > >> did not do what they were supposed to do : what should they have done
> > >> ?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks.
> > >
> > > I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful
> > > that people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going.  From the
> > > little exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's
> > > views ring depressingly true.  I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree
> > > with what he suggests - it makes common sense that users views and
> > > desires should determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read
> > > between the lines to see how might his proposals lead to directions
> > > that I would not readily agree with.  See this excerpt of his below
> > > from OSNews.com in 2002:
> > >
> > > "I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a
> > > profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I
> > > can stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional
> > > efforts exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers
> > > would like to do the same thing"
> > >
> > > (I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much
> > > like to find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like -
> > > without having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.)
> > >
> > > Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view,
> > > especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard
> > > to rest assured that there will be no conflict of interest.  On the
> > > other hand it seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership,
> > > which can fulfill some rather significant responsibilities.  From what
> > > I read the current Gentoo administration and management setup does not
> > > seem to be able to behave with the professionalism required to achieve
> > > that.  This makes me anxious for the future of Gentoo.
> > >
> > > Just my 2c's.
> >
> > I have been using Gentoo for about 4 or 5 years now.  I to think Gentoo
> > has well, lost its way.  It seems like a bunch of teenagers is running
> > it sometimes.  They decide something then go back a few steps when they
> > don't like the results.  Proctors come to mind on that.  Users seems to
> > be the last thing on the higher ups mind.  That is not good.
> >
> > I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some
> > things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about.
> >
> > I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
>  Although he works for Microsoft,

worked
not works.
>  Daniel is the one who created this project

and then he walked away.

And don't forget his stunt last year, when he came back for 2 days and started 
a big fat flame war.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Samstag, 12. Januar 2008, Richard Marzan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 18:22 +0100, Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan
> >
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >  Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this
> > > project.
> >
> > He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for
> > relevant news.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Renat
>
> Even more of a reason to bring him back!

no, just another sign that he never pulls through.
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Re: [gentoo-user] KDE4 overlay

[Mark Shields]

On Jan 11, 2008 6:37 PM, Bo Ørsted Andresen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Friday 11 January 2008 22:26:34 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Anyone know where this overlay disappeared to?
>
> It moved to git. Assuming dev-util/git is installed:
>
> # layman -f && layman -d kde && layman -a kde
>
> Having said that KDE 4.0.0 should show up as package.mask'ed in gentoo-x86
> within a few days. Eclasses for this has just been submitted to -dev@ ...
>
> --
> Bo Andresen
>

Awesome.  Glad to hear it's been submitted.  Thanks for the info.

-- 
- Mark Shields

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is GWN dead?

[Mark Knecht]

On Jan 12, 2008 12:52 PM, James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Michael Schmarck  habmalnefrage.de> writes:
>
>
> > Well, actually, I never used a Gentoo install CD to install Gentoo. I
> > also don't quite understand, why anyone would need such a beast.
>
> Folks new to gentoo, would find it suspicious, for a distro not to have
> it's own install. Other forks of Gentoo have their install methods.

>
> So yes, drop the (graphical) liveCD 0ption and create  installation
> method(s) that begin simple (therefore easy to maintain and update)
> and ...

I haven't followed this whole thread but isn't this idea EXACTLY what
the Gentoo install process was 6-7 years ago? It's how I got started
and it worked great for me. A simple boot CD, a text console, and then
start copying tar files to get up to date stuff to work with. The few
times I've done an install using newer install CDs I've switched to a
text console, started ssh, and logged in from another machine where I
Can copy/paste the install commands from a browser into my ssh
terminal. Works great every time for me.

In the old days there were folks who wanted to do stage 1 or stage 2
installs. I never did one. Stage 3 always worked great for me.

For the record I am one of the newbie types that I think someone
mentioned as getting lucky and getting it right. That said, after 6-7
years of using Gentoo, I'm still a newbie. I will be forever. I don't
want to dig into any Linux distro as much as I want to use it. I'm not
a sys admin, except for the 6 Gentoo machines at home. I work for
myself and don't deal with offices but I Was never a sys admin and I
don't program in any language and I Still manage to make Gentoo work
for me. The power of Gentoo, for me, is the ease and quality of the
install process. I use a LOT of non-stable, under development audio
recording packages. I really appreciate how well I can do this on
Gentoo.

I hope the Gentoo devs can get back to the roots of this distro. Rock
solid install. Rock solid operation. High availability of interesting
software either through portage directly or through overlays like
proaudio.

Just my 2 cents and no matter what nothing in this email should ever
be construed as anything except the greatest respect and reverence for
those who make this disrto run.

Cheers,
Mark
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[James]

Mick  gmail.com> writes:


> >  The problem is, and is not, legal papers.
> > Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could
> > someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what
> > they were supposed to do : what should they have done ?

Excellent point. I ask the question. Exactly what is Daniel proposing
that has everyone so opposed to his return. Don't give generalized
bullshit answers, BE PRECISE.


The current lack of mature, focused leadership, by folks that are
technically and financially successful is apparent if one just reads this
list over a period of time. I say this as a mature Engineer with 
a Master's Degree in Computer Science. I make a good living out of
my garage, and I've owned and sold several business for a nice
profit, over the years..

(pit, I'm willing to coach the 'young punks' that make gentoo the wonderful
distro it is, if they are willing to listen to my ideas. Let the community
vote and decide. FUNDING is not a problem. FOCUS is the problem with Gentoo
IMHO. Gentoo has issues with FUNDING, because of how it presents itself.
Not having a clean, well oiled installation semantic is like meeting someone
for the first time with green, rotten teeth and bad breathe that would
stop a train. First impressions only happen once. The installation
process is the first meeting (impression) for gentoo...



> I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that 
> people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going.  From the little 
> exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring 
> depressingly true.  I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he 
> suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should 
> determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see 
> how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree 
> with.  


This is such a simple issue to deal with. Before you (the gentoo community
agree to let him be in charge, you put a group of other folks on the board
of directors (elders). Allowing anyone to be president (in charge of the daily
activities) and CEO, (the long range strategic focus) is a bad idea.  It's
called a balance of power, and that is fundamental to any successful
organization.


> "I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a 
> profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can 
> stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts 
> exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like to 
> do the same thing"

The daily (tribal) leaders should be accountable to the elders, when the elders
say they need to be accountable. (PERIOD). It's just like parenting
or running a corporation. Hopefully, as the organization matures, becomes
accomplished and  significant progress is achieved (natural things in the
coarse of becoming successful) the interaction between the elders (Board of
Directors and the tribal (fiefdom/team) leaders become less and less.
As time progresses, elders retire (to successful start up companies and the
tribal leaders migrate to the BOD or directly to successful startup companies
centric to gentoo...


> (I am not critisizing this statement of his; after all I would 
> very much like to 
> find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without 
> having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.)

How about listening to those who have done this already?

I could self fund a gentoo startup, tonight, with the right group
of focused individuals. (see my previous postings on 
building a gentoo meta package for ecommerce... as just one 
example. Or the camera to embedded gentoo device in another thread.
If you want a degree from a university, you have to do it the way
of those (with degrees) that run the university. If you want money
in your pockets (as an entrepreneur) then you have to listen to
those entrepreneurs willing to share there success with you.


> Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, 
> especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to rest 
> assured that there will be no conflict of interest. 


I thinks the revelation that he has left MS and abandoned several 
other ventures means he has also 'matured' to the point of 
looking for a fresh start with at least modest success.

> On the other hand it 
> seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill 
> some rather significant responsibilities.  


No, surely you are pulling my leg here.?

This is rather simple. Anyone with strong to elite skills send me your resume
and tell me what kind of business you'd like to own. I'll surf through
the desires and ideas and pick one (or use one I like) and fund the
startup and give the key persons stock in a company you help start

On the otherhand I'v

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?

[b.n.]

Michael Schmarck ha scritto:
> · Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Depends. You're saying, that Gentoo might look to be incomplete, if
> it were to rely on other distributions (Live CDs). I'm saying, that
> it currently already looks to be incomplete, despite there being a
> install CD - a CD, which is outdated.

And why something that can be installed and works is incomplete?
Would you call Gentoo incomplete because it doesn't provide physical
hardware where to install it? No. So why do not having an official
livecd makes it incomplete?

Think it the other way. Gentoo is, among other things, a way to install
Linux from any decent Linux live cd. From this point of view, the fact
that Gentoo sometimes releases an 'official' live cd is more of a luxury
than something it needs to be complete.

m.
-- 
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[gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Richard Cox]

Anybody else get a DB error when trying to access the forums?  Seems like it 
may have been overwhelmed with the Robbins debate going on.
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Dale]

James wrote:
> Mick  gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>   
>>>  The problem is, and is not, legal papers.
>>> Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could
>>> someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what
>>> they were supposed to do : what should they have done ?
>>>   
>
> Excellent point. I ask the question. Exactly what is Daniel proposing
> that has everyone so opposed to his return. Don't give generalized
> bullshit answers, BE PRECISE.
>
>
> The current lack of mature, focused leadership, by folks that are
> technically and financially successful is apparent if one just reads this
> list over a period of time. I say this as a mature Engineer with 
> a Master's Degree in Computer Science. I make a good living out of
> my garage, and I've owned and sold several business for a nice
> profit, over the years..
>
> < SNIP >

I agree.  I saw a post somewhere that some are pretty young and act
their age, if even that much.  It makes Gentoo look bad when even one
person goes off kilter like that. 

> < SNIP >
> I read one poster that blasted Ciaran McCreesh
> Also recently, I read a thread where he created an alternative
> to portage, and that many respected techies on this list actually
> use his replacement for portage. The poster that blasted Ciaran, misses
> a simple point. (Machiavellian aside). You have break some eggs to
> create an omlette. 
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccol%C3%B2_Machiavelli
>   

I have read a lot of posts on -dev by Ciaran.  I'm not defending how he
says some things but he does have some good points.  I also keep in mind
that he has created a alternative to portage and from what I have read
it works VERY well and is even better than portage.  I don't use it but
I have read where people are talking about their experience with his
program.  He should be given a lot of credit for that and at least have
his ideas heard in a more "respectful" way. 

On that note, at least he has enough balls to say something on -dev.  I
posted a concern a long time ago and got hammered by just one person,
acting like a 3 year old who got his candy took away.  It is very rare,
if I have posted at all now.  It's just not worth it.  It seems to me
that there is a very few people that seem to think they "own" -dev and
Gentoo.  By the way, some others also didn't like the post that was made
to me.  It helped but it is just not worth it.  I'm disabled and 40
years old, feels like about 70 most days, and just to old for that crap.
> My wife is a very successful computer engineer (hundreds of products).
> She is vile and very rough on EEs that design hardware. Only the
> most competent hardware designers can work with her. Their eggos are
> often bruised when their selection of uP/DSP/processor is not 
> robust for the product they envision.. Get over it!
> The planet is ruled by those with mental fortitude (PERIOD).
> Most of her customers come from referrals or from semiconductor
> representatives directly.
>
> You don't like this, take it up with the author of the universe
> (whomever you believe that is).
>
> Gentoo needs leadership that is accountable to the user community
> but also bound to a set of bylaws that we agree with. Keeping the
> distro free is paramount, but, creating avenues for financial success
> for products and services centric to gentoo is a necessary
> requisite too, IMHO.
>
>
> James
>
>   

True, even things that are free have to have money.  It never makes it
without it.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Mick]

On Sunday 13 January 2008, Richard Cox wrote:
> Anybody else get a DB error when trying to access the forums?  Seems like
> it may have been overwhelmed with the Robbins debate going on.

Nope, it seems to work fine from here (UK).  There's around 8 pages so far, 
with some entertaining flaming amidst some good arguments.
-- 
Regards,
Mick


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Dale]

Richard Cox wrote:
> Anybody else get a DB error when trying to access the forums?  Seems like it 
> may have been overwhelmed with the Robbins debate going on.
>   

Works fine here.  Even found the thread.  Oh, I'm in Mississippi USA if
it matters.

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-644321-highlight-daniel+robbins.html

Dale

:-)  :-) 
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Ricardo Saffi Marques]

Everything smooth from here too: Campinas, SP, Brazil
:-)

On 1/13/08, Dale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Richard Cox wrote:
> > Anybody else get a DB error when trying to access the forums?  Seems
> like it
> > may have been overwhelmed with the Robbins debate going on.
> >
>
> Works fine here.  Even found the thread.  Oh, I'm in Mississippi USA if
> it matters.
>
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-644321-highlight-daniel+robbins.html
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
> --
> gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Ricardo Saffi Marques
Laboratório de Administração e Segurança de Sistemas (LAS/IC)
Universidade Estadual de Campinas (UNICAMP)
Cell: +55 (19) 8128-0435
Skype: ricardo_saffi_marques
Website: http://www.rsaffi.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Richard Cox]

On Saturday 12 January 2008 19:55:23 Dale wrote:
> Richard Cox wrote:
> > Anybody else get a DB error when trying to access the forums?  Seems like
> > it may have been overwhelmed with the Robbins debate going on.
>
> Works fine here.  Even found the thread.  Oh, I'm in Mississippi USA if
> it matters.
>
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-644321-highlight-daniel+robbins.html
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)

Thanks, it's the "View posts from last 24 hours" link that is causing the 
problem for me.

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Dale]

Richard Cox wrote:
> On Saturday 12 January 2008 19:55:23 Dale wrote:
>   
>> Richard Cox wrote:
>> 
>>> Anybody else get a DB error when trying to access the forums?  Seems like
>>> it may have been overwhelmed with the Robbins debate going on.
>>>   
>> Works fine here.  Even found the thread.  Oh, I'm in Mississippi USA if
>> it matters.
>>
>> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-644321-highlight-daniel+robbins.html
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>> 
>
> Thanks, it's the "View posts from last 24 hours" link that is causing the 
> problem for me.
>
>   

Well, I did have to hit the reload button once.  This AT&T, formerly
Bell South,  dial-up sucks.  Send a little, wait.  Send a little, wait. 
Send a little, wait.  Send a little, wait.  You get the idea.  I hope
their DSL is better.  It is suposed to be here soon, I guess anyway.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Ricardo Saffi Marques]

On 1/13/08, Richard Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks, it's the "View posts from last 24 hours" link that is causing the
> problem for me.
>
> --
> gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
Even though, it's fine here.

-- 
Ricardo Saffi Marques
Laboratório de Administração e Segurança de Sistemas (LAS/IC)
Universidade Estadual de Campinas (UNICAMP)
Cell: +55 (19) 8128-0435
Skype: ricardo_saffi_marques
Website: http://www.rsaffi.com

[gentoo-user] Re: Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[James]

Alan McKinnon  gmail.com> writes:


> > http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html

> I've kept very quiet about Gentoo politics for a long time, but Daniel's 
> blog has promoted me to finally open my mouth and express my views.

> Daniel is in a tricky position - he is the legal President of the 
> Foundation but also has no role in the project in real life.

This can be corrected quite easily. If one is to believe his
posting, (I have no evidence to believe otherwise) that he
wants to be removed from gentoo completely, or return and offer
a vision for leadership in a autocratic environment...


> There is no evidence whatsoever that the Trustees as a group have ever 
> done a single thing for Gentoo in three years. The fundamental 
> responsibility of Trustees is to ensure that legal paperwork is 
> properly filed, they did not even do this. Grant Goodyear is getting 
> some things done but he's doing it as one person. Chris is in a similar 
> position. But the Trustees, as a body with specific duties, simply does 
> not exist in any reasonable definition of Trustees.

This is not difficult to fix either. Getting the legal issues handled
is not difficult, especially if those trustees what to leave. If they
are non-performers, they either want to kill gentoo or they do not
see viable replacements for trustees, or mediocrity is acceptable
to them.

The bulk of the devs and the community of the users, should decide
who is a on the BOD. One person, one vote, with a required registration
as to actually who people are. The potential BOD folks could be elected?
If  the current trustees do not like this then it only takes a core group
to create a fork. (It seems to me Daniel has some well concealed plans
for Gentoo, and my bet is that he is either going to regain autocratic
control or fork). 

As a successful business man (Engineer), with a Lawyer in 
my family and dozens of lawyers that owe me favors, It its not difficult
to solve these leagalise problem, given either a quorum or a motivated group
of technical folks.  In fact, since I seen the charaterization that gentoo
is really just LFS + portage, it would seem that Mr. McCreesh has indeed 
created his own (gentoo) distro. Also, there are other forks of Gentoo
and they do not seem to require legions of devs to maintain a fork. 


I turn down most opportunities to be on a BOD
with many organizations, but, I care about Gentoo quite a lot. If Gentoo
is truely in crisis, why have the devs not discuss this with the wider
user community? This simple fact make the whole state of affairs
suspicious to say the least.

Potential BOD members should each create a vision document, publish it
and let's elect the BOD (trustees). If the current Trustees do not 
agree with this, then fork the distro and let's all move on. It's not
like this has never happened before.


After reading the aforementioned Blog (by Daniel), I have strong 
reservations about Daniels 'vision'.

First, let him publish his vision, including who he wants to name to the
board of trustees and the governing bylaws (or changes) he is proposing.

Second if he wants to be the day bay (tribal chief) then he should
have only a vote as to the makeup of the BOD. Allowing him to return
with the sole responsibility to select a BOD, is a recipe for doom,
IMHO. You can describe DOOM as you wish, but, giving carte-blanche 
control to him, or anyone, is foolish, at best. Doing so with no
published data, nor restrictive covenants, nor by-laws, nor mission
statement, nor accountability mechanisms is unwise, IMHO.


> I used to read -dev and various council mailing lists a long time ago as 
> I wanted to keep up to date with these things as a user. I unsubscribed 
> because I couldn't stand the constant bickering going on there. OSS 
> projects always have their laundry out in the public eye and some 
> conflict is always present but Gentoo management manages to take this 
> to a whole new level - from on outsider's point of view, the bickering 
> is done for the sake of bickering, and it does not result in decisions 
> being made or solutions found.


I'm not certain that these discussion should be held on the -dev list.
After all, if the 'devs' where the managerial geniuses they claim to be
(evident by their choice of -dev as the proper place to discuss the future
of Gentoo) then we would not be in this mess (YMMV)... Like many readers 
on this list, I've have noticed some increase in the dysfunctionality 
of gentoo over the recent months, but, was unaware of an imminent melt down
in the distro's 'chain of authority'. 

It also sounds to me as though Daniel, is trying to trick or provoke
the trustees into allowing him to decide the future of the distro
without first telling us what that future is to be.  But then again
why the trustees have become apathetic and have not sought out
replacement for themselves, is inexcusible if indeed this is the case. 
Daniel probably understands the inherent value in an es

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Richard Cox]

On Saturday 12 January 2008 20:05:50 Ricardo Saffi Marques wrote:
> On 1/13/08, Richard Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Thanks, it's the "View posts from last 24 hours" link that is causing the
> > problem for me.
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
> Even though, it's fine here.

Ok, well, I'm still having problems with it, but I've got a workaround now.   
It's giving me this whenever I hit the "View posts from last 24 hours" link:

phpBB : Critical Error

Could not connect to the database


 Thanks.
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Ricardo Saffi Marques]

Weird, but... have you tried cleaning your browser cache? CTRL SHIFT DEL on
firefox.

On 1/13/08, Richard Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Saturday 12 January 2008 20:05:50 Ricardo Saffi Marques wrote:
> > On 1/13/08, Richard Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Thanks, it's the "View posts from last 24 hours" link that is causing
> the
> > > problem for me.
> > >
> > > --
> > > gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> > Even though, it's fine here.
>
> Ok, well, I'm still having problems with it, but I've got a workaround
> now.
> It's giving me this whenever I hit the "View posts from last 24 hours"
> link:
>
> phpBB : Critical Error
>
> Could not connect to the database
>
>
> Thanks.
> --
> gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Ricardo Saffi Marques
Laboratório de Administração e Segurança de Sistemas (LAS/IC)
Universidade Estadual de Campinas (UNICAMP)
Cell: +55 (19) 8128-0435
Skype: ricardo_saffi_marques
Website: http://www.rsaffi.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Richard Cox]

On Saturday 12 January 2008 20:17:59 Ricardo Saffi Marques wrote:
> Weird, but... have you tried cleaning your browser cache? CTRL SHIFT DEL on
> firefox.
>
> On 1/13/08, Richard Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Saturday 12 January 2008 20:05:50 Ricardo Saffi Marques wrote:
> > > On 1/13/08, Richard Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Thanks, it's the "View posts from last 24 hours" link that is causing
> >
> > the
> >
> > > > problem for me.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
> > >
> > > Even though, it's fine here.
> >
> > Ok, well, I'm still having problems with it, but I've got a workaround
> > now.
> > It's giving me this whenever I hit the "View posts from last 24 hours"
> > link:
> >
> > phpBB : Critical Error
> >
> > Could not connect to the database
> >
> >
> > Thanks.
> > --
> > gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Yeah, still have the problem.  Very strange.


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Richard Cox wrote:
| Yeah, still have the problem.  Very strange.

This is because Gentoo is now on Slashdot frntpage:
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/08/01/12/0152208.shtml

So, I recon we were slashdotted...


- --
Arturo "Buanzo" Busleiman
BUSCO Baterista para estilo brit-pop Zona Norte BsAs
Independent Security Consultant - SANS - OISSG
http://www.buanzo.com.ar/pro/
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=VhXl
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Forums Crashed

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Sonntag, 13. Januar 2008, Richard Cox wrote:
> Anybody else get a DB error when trying to access the forums?  Seems like
> it may have been overwhelmed with the Robbins debate going on.

what do you mean with crashed?

The 'too many connections' error? That happens sometimes and is not a crash. 
Just reaload.
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[gentoo-user] Re: Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[James]

Dale  bellsouth.net> writes:


> >>>  The problem is, and is not, legal papers.

> > Gentoo needs leadership that is accountable to the user community
> > but also bound to a set of bylaws that we agree with. Keeping the
> > distro free is paramount, but, creating avenues for financial success
> > for products and services centric to gentoo is a necessary
> > requisite too, IMHO.

> True, even things that are free have to have money.  It never makes it
> without it.

Dale,
I appreciate your response and sentiments.


On another note:
Sorry about my previous postings && disconnected thoughts and grammar
Hopefully, most can follow the logic of what I'm trying to say,
whether you agree with me or not.

With 3 Kids, deep in sibling rivalry, and a wife who's pissed because
my priorities do not fall in line with her vision or what I should
work on, it make it difficult to finish a thought, let alone
a comprehensive email.

In my mind I'm an accomplished person. In her mind I'm just another
stupid EE, that does not agree with HER leadership (and you thought
that gentoo  has problems..) Still, I respect her and even
love her. Maybe that's the insanity that make Gentoo work?
When I suggest we separate but stay friendly (like forking Gentoo)
she get's angry and prefers that we stay together for the sake 
of the children (gentoo user community). She has prevailed (so far
but at what costs)?



I'm headed to the Kitchen for a very tall Margarita..

goo_night!

James

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Daniel Robbins' come back ?

[Mark Kirkwood]

James wrote:


In my mind I'm an accomplished person. In her mind I'm just another
stupid EE,


Hey James -

Interesting post - this eludes me tho, what is an EE?

Cheers

Mark

P.s: a beer should cure all women problems

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