Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 07:29:21PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote SLAX is using KDE4 - and uses 200mb. KDE is flexible. If you have lots of memory, it does use lots of memory. If you don't it doesn't. So don't group it together with 'lets force mono unto our users - for a notes application' gnome or 'you can always add another 4gig' chrome. What about 'lets force dbus/libmpeg2/qt-webkit/phonon and a relational database on our users - for a pdf viewer'? I have a stripped-down no-nonsense install on all my machines with the USE variable beginning with -*, and only necessary stuff being added. When xpdf was deprecated, one of the suggested alternatives was okular. It requires qt3support, which in turn requires the accessibility USE flag. And qt-gui is required which requires the dbus flag. And oh yeah, I'd have to unmask dbus. And dee first dependancy requires dee second dependancy And dee second dependancy requires dee third dependancy And dee third dependancy requires dee fourth dependancy etc, etc, etc After unmasking dbus and adding a bunch of USE flags, I finally got rid of the emerge error messages... USE=accessibility dbus glib qt3support sqlite gstreamer emerge -p okular Total: 59 packages (59 new), Size of downloads: 347,087 kB A stinking pdf viewer requires, amongst other things... libmpeg2 dbus desktop-file-utils strigi xdg-utils qt-webkit phonon and *A RELATIONAL DATABASE* (Hello!?!?), of which the lightest available is sqlite. Don't waste your time trying to convince me that KDE is lightweight. I run ICEWM. See my sig... -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
I don't think that's right. I have a Pandaboard ES with a dual-core 1.2Ghz CPU and 1GB RAM and I bet it would run Gnome just fine. Again, maybe you're referring to something here that I'm not familiar with. I think the key word was micro, but is that off topic (ignoring subject)? Many (such as lennart and some kernel devs such as GKH even) seem to think embedded applies only to the mobile world when in fact mobile is a small fraction of it. Even below Uclinux type systems, there is nuttx linux or rowebots for example which is in a similar position to what mobile was in the generic kernel. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) ___
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:00:09PM -0800, Grant wrote When you say embedded kernels you may mean something I'm not familiar with, but I use a patched vanilla kernel with Gentoo on the Beaglebone and it works great. No uclibc and no busybox. I'm thinking more along the lines of ADSL router/modems, e.g. the Linksys WRT54G series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linksys_WRT54G_series with Broadcom CPUs. DD-WRT is a basic linux that is configured to act as a firewall/router/etc. See http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 01:06:23PM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote: On Dec 13, 2012 12:10 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: It's nice to see a chip designer not falling into the intel trap of trying to rape every customer for every last cent they have! Don't get me started on that... I hate them for 'selectively' making CPU Features available. In my previous company, we more than once have to send back newly-purchased PCs because apparently the model we ordered had an 'upgrade', yet the *newer* CPU doesn't support VT-x. Such thing never happen with AMD Desktop CPUs. That's why my next home rig will be AMD-based. The first PC I built was in 1984, and no longer remember which CPU was used. Since the mid 90s I've only bought one Intel CPU (2002), and that because I'd been living in China only a month, couldn't speak the language, and the guy helping me who spoke a little Engrish reported the salesman said AMD quit making CPUs. Being sorely in need of a server, I just bought it. Happy Penguin Computers doesn't buy anything from Intel ... period. As my daughter says, Daddy, don't compromise your convictions! -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
Am Mittwoch, 12. Dezember 2012, 19:33:58 schrieb Walter Dnes: It would be interesting to see a micro port of Gentoo. But you can forget about bringing over KDE-OS, GNOME-OS, or CHROME-OS. If/when gnash is finally ready, or HTML replaces Flash, I could see Gentoo running with ICEWM or a lightweight desktop like XFCE or LXDE. SLAX is using KDE4 - and uses 200mb. KDE is flexible. If you have lots of memory, it does use lots of memory. If you don't it doesn't. So don't group it together with 'lets force mono unto our users - for a notes application' gnome or 'you can always add another 4gig' chrome. -- #163933
[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon at gmail.com writes: 68k - POWER POWER - Intel Intel - ARM Ah, you've made progress! the 6502 doesn't count Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded linux running on many different flavors of ARM processors. RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates the embedded space. Just look at the vintage embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that mostly impoverished little companies built and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to realize their dreams: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/ Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded the little companies from fair competition. RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies back when the embedded world did not think much of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a few of those old projects) Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking lawyers and assholes that think they are better than the rest of us; and they shall fall! From the Bible: You reap what you sow... My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook, and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook. The distro that does this will be king of the distros! http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/ peace, James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +, James wrote: Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded linux running on many different flavors of ARM processors. RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates the embedded space. Just look at the vintage embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that mostly impoverished little companies built and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to realize their dreams: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/ Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded the little companies from fair competition. RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies back when the embedded world did not think much of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a few of those old projects) Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking lawyers and assholes that think they are better than the rest of us; and they shall fall! From the Bible: You reap what you sow... My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook, and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook. The distro that does this will be king of the distros! http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/ peace, James ack for Russell King Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system replaced by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone. Well, idk James, but his passion is great to read! -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
Bruce Hill daddy at happypenguincomputers.com writes: Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system replaced by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone. Your problem defined: http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/05/03/yep-its-pretty-likely-the-galaxy-s-iii-wont-have-a-quad-core-processor-in-the-us/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos_(system_on_chip) Dev board: http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/26/samsung-launches-arndale-community-board/ Now go find embedded (gentoo?) Linux developers that have or are working on a port to the Arm15. On this page: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/ Look at entry: 3825 All you really got to do is buy a dev board and give it to either Armin76 or Vapier; they'll get embedded gentoo on that puppy and figure out how to hack your Galaxy S-III. It's on my todo list. http://armin762.wordpress.com/ http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/ gentoo.embedded is your friend! Good hunting. post back and I'll get a dev board too!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:55:53PM +, James wrote: Bruce Hill daddy at happypenguincomputers.com writes: Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system replaced by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone. Your problem defined: http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/05/03/yep-its-pretty-likely-the-galaxy-s-iii-wont-have-a-quad-core-processor-in-the-us/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos_(system_on_chip) Dev board: http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/26/samsung-launches-arndale-community-board/ Now go find embedded (gentoo?) Linux developers that have or are working on a port to the Arm15. On this page: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/ Look at entry: 3825 All you really got to do is buy a dev board and give it to either Armin76 or Vapier; they'll get embedded gentoo on that puppy and figure out how to hack your Galaxy S-III. It's on my todo list. http://armin762.wordpress.com/ http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/ gentoo.embedded is your friend! Good hunting. post back and I'll get a dev board too! Too busy with RL atm, but afaict that doesn't apply to my Samsung Galaxy S. Notice, just S ... nothing afterwards. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +, James wrote My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook, and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook. The distro that does this will be king of the distros! http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/ Problems with using embedded kernels as a base... * they use uclibc, which has some APIs that differ from glibc. This could break Flash, proprietary video driver binary blobs, and who knows what else. * they generally use busybox symlinks in place of most core utils. The busybox versions don't always exactly match the standalone versions. You would have to tweak quite a few scripts to fix that. Alpine Linux is based on uclibc and busybox (including mdev). From http://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux:Overview Note: As the About page says, Alpine is designed for x86 Routers, Firewalls, VPNs, VoIP and servers. But it's a perfectly workable desktop system, too. The shortcomings just have to do with the small community, and that sometimes you may need to get your hands dirty modifying scripts written with more mainstream desktop distros in mind. So you probably won't want to use Alpine if you're a newcomer to Linux. If you're already comfortable with another distro, though, especially a power-user, less-hand-holding distro like ArchLinux or Gentoo, you should do fine. It would be interesting to see a micro port of Gentoo. But you can forget about bringing over KDE-OS, GNOME-OS, or CHROME-OS. If/when gnash is finally ready, or HTML replaces Flash, I could see Gentoo running with ICEWM or a lightweight desktop like XFCE or LXDE. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
Problems with using embedded kernels as a base... * they use uclibc, which has some APIs that differ from glibc. This could break Flash, proprietary video driver binary blobs, and who knows what else. * they generally use busybox symlinks in place of most core utils. The busybox versions don't always exactly match the standalone versions. You would have to tweak quite a few scripts to fix that. When you say embedded kernels you may mean something I'm not familiar with, but I use a patched vanilla kernel with Gentoo on the Beaglebone and it works great. No uclibc and no busybox. It would be interesting to see a micro port of Gentoo. But you can forget about bringing over KDE-OS, GNOME-OS, or CHROME-OS. If/when gnash is finally ready, or HTML replaces Flash, I could see Gentoo running with ICEWM or a lightweight desktop like XFCE or LXDE. I don't think that's right. I have a Pandaboard ES with a dual-core 1.2Ghz CPU and 1GB RAM and I bet it would run Gnome just fine. Again, maybe you're referring to something here that I'm not familiar with. - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:26:02 -0600 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +, James wrote: Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded linux running on many different flavors of ARM processors. RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates the embedded space. Just look at the vintage embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that mostly impoverished little companies built and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to realize their dreams: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/ Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded the little companies from fair competition. RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies back when the embedded world did not think much of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a few of those old projects) Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking lawyers and assholes that think they are better than the rest of us; and they shall fall! From the Bible: You reap what you sow... My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook, and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook. The distro that does this will be king of the distros! http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/ peace, James ack for Russell King +1 to that too. I'd also like to tip my hat to ARM itself - their licensing conditions to build cores seems very reasonable and a good deal for a manufacturer, all bases covered. It's nice to see a chip designer not falling into the intel trap of trying to rape every customer for every last cent they have! Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system replaced by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone. Well, idk James, but his passion is great to read! -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Dec 13, 2012 12:10 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:26:02 -0600 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +, James wrote: Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded linux running on many different flavors of ARM processors. RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates the embedded space. Just look at the vintage embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that mostly impoverished little companies built and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to realize their dreams: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/ Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded the little companies from fair competition. RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies back when the embedded world did not think much of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a few of those old projects) Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking lawyers and assholes that think they are better than the rest of us; and they shall fall! From the Bible: You reap what you sow... My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook, and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook. The distro that does this will be king of the distros! http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/ peace, James ack for Russell King +1 to that too. I'd also like to tip my hat to ARM itself - their licensing conditions to build cores seems very reasonable and a good deal for a manufacturer, all bases covered. It's nice to see a chip designer not falling into the intel trap of trying to rape every customer for every last cent they have! Don't get me started on that... I hate them for 'selectively' making CPU Features available. In my previous company, we more than once have to send back newly-purchased PCs because apparently the model we ordered had an 'upgrade', yet the *newer* CPU doesn't support VT-x. Such thing never happen with AMD Desktop CPUs. That's why my next home rig will be AMD-based. Rgds, --
[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon at gmail.com writes: You have neglected to mention the single most important factor of all: inertia Human groups are loathe to change things that already work good enough for something that works better. Intel works good enough. Windows and Linux will be indistinguishable to the masses of users. Everyone is cheap, so the price of Intel processors will plunge. Arm, being ethereal by nature, is far too fleet-footed for the aged behemoth, known as Intel. The planet is CHEAP, and that has, shall and will dominate Not to mention there'll be a big party of technologists (competitors?) just waiting to piss on Intel's corpse. James
[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. Does anyone think this won't happen? no two reasons: not enough power does not run x86 software the second one is a real deal breaker. Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the processor architecture. Then you'd be able to build programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures! -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! TONY RANDALL! Is YOUR at life a PATIO of FUN?? gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. Does anyone think this won't happen? no two reasons: not enough power does not run x86 software the second one is a real deal breaker. Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the processor architecture. Then you'd be able to build programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures! You speak in jest, but this is now the case for most of the applications people use... Even for legacy binaries, the solution has trended towards sticking the thing in a VM and accessing it over the network. -- :wq
[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On 2012-12-10, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. Does anyone think this won't happen? no two reasons: not enough power does not run x86 software the second one is a real deal breaker. Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the processor architecture. Then you'd be able to build programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures! You speak in jest, but this is now the case for most of the applications people use... For an increasingly large segment of the population, the the software they use is 1) A web browser to access stuff that runs on a server somewhere of inderminate architecture (GMail, Salesforce, Facebook, Youtube, miniclip, pinsta-whatever, etc.). 2) A collection of smartphone/tablet apps, most of which aren't even available for x86. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! What GOOD is a at CARDBOARD suitcase ANYWAY? gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 + (UTC) Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. Does anyone think this won't happen? no two reasons: not enough power does not run x86 software the second one is a real deal breaker. Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the processor architecture. Then you'd be able to build programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures! We can do that *already* java perl python dotnet and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too many to list. Why have these languages not taken over the world seeing as they all a) exist b) exist now c) run now d) do what it says on the box e) run about as fast as C most of the time in places where it matters? Because in theory they do what they do well. In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is a difference between theory and practice -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On 2012-12-10, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 + (UTC) Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. Does anyone think this won't happen? no two reasons: not enough power does not run x86 software the second one is a real deal breaker. Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the processor architecture. Then you'd be able to build programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures! We can do that *already* java perl python dotnet and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too many to list. I know. :) And even if you stick with old-school compiled languages to C, supporting multiple architectures isn't any more difficult than supporting the plethora of x86-based motherboards and chipsets. * Apple transitioned from 68K to PPC to x86 without much problem, and they don't seem to have any problem getting software to run on ARM devices. * Linux is available for non x86 platforms. :) Nobody has developed significant applications in assembly language for decades, so I don't see why there's a requirement to run x86 software... I use a couple of large, commerical Java apps under Linux and they both work great. OTOH, some of the smaller free Java apps I've tried were pretty bad... -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Gee, I feel kind of at LIGHT in the head now, gmail.comknowing I can't make my satellite dish PAYMENTS!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
Am Montag, 10. Dezember 2012, 20:06:58 schrieb Grant Edwards: On 2012-12-10, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 + (UTC) Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. Does anyone think this won't happen? no two reasons: not enough power does not run x86 software the second one is a real deal breaker. Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the processor architecture. Then you'd be able to build programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures! We can do that *already* java perl python dotnet and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too many to list. I know. :) And even if you stick with old-school compiled languages to C, supporting multiple architectures isn't any more difficult than supporting the plethora of x86-based motherboards and chipsets. * Apple transitioned from 68K to PPC to x86 without much problem, and they don't seem to have any problem getting software to run on ARM devices. apple had what? 1% market share back then? Legacy apps running all around, doing heavy lifting no way to 'port' them. Just remember all those COBOL programmers who got reactivated back in 1999. Or Itanium. One thing why it failed so hard: it didn't run x86 software well enough. If you have to go all new - why not POWER or UltraSparc instead? -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:06:58 + (UTC) Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-12-10, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 + (UTC) Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. Does anyone think this won't happen? no two reasons: not enough power does not run x86 software the second one is a real deal breaker. Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the processor architecture. Then you'd be able to build programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures! We can do that *already* java perl python dotnet and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too many to list. I know. :) And even if you stick with old-school compiled languages to C, supporting multiple architectures isn't any more difficult than supporting the plethora of x86-based motherboards and chipsets. * Apple transitioned from 68K to PPC to x86 without much problem, and they don't seem to have any problem getting software to run on ARM devices. Apple tightly controls the entire computer end-to-end and they know *exactly* what is already on the user's machine: How many kinds of video cards: 1 How many kinds of screens: 1 How many drive types: 1 How many optical drive types: 1 How many boot methods: 1 I could go on, but you get the point. The larger part of the variable factors simply don't exist for Apple to the same degree faced by Windows and Linux. This makes a migration several orders of magnitude easier for Apple. * Linux is available for non x86 platforms. :) Only by a monumental crowd-source effort never before witnessed in the history of engineering. When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they tweak a few compile settings, write a few new drivers for new hardware, and run make. A surprisingly large chunk of the code base builds fine. A relatively small team takes care of the rest. The same action on Linux takes somewhat longer, and considerably more effort while the vast army of suckers^Wvolunteers and concentrate on their little bit while waiting for the reverse-engineering lads to finish doing their thing. Nobody has developed significant applications in assembly language for decades, so I don't see why there's a requirement to run x86 software... I don't get your point. Are you talking about code finely-hand-tuned to run on a specific cpu? The kinds of software the average user really wants to run are very much tied to the hardware: kernel drivers boot code media players codecs It's true we don't hand tune each app to the cpu anymore, we hand tune the compiler to the cpu. I use a couple of large, commerical Java apps under Linux and they both work great. OTOH, some of the smaller free Java apps I've tried were pretty bad... I'm not sure what you mean by this. Code quality varies, this is always true. The best quality proprietary code I've experienced was from Sybase. The worst quality proprieatry code I've experienced was from Oracle. This doesn't prove anything except that maybe when you bedazzle bean counters you can get away with anything... -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
* Linux is available for non x86 platforms. :) Only by a monumental crowd-source effort never before witnessed in the history of engineering. I'm spoiled then. Gentoo's ARM support is so complete and easy to use, I didn't realize it was a big deal. BTW, I haven't counted but it seems like about 95% of the stuff in portage has an arm keyword. I wanted to use inetd (netkit-base) on ARM and it didn't have an arm keyword, but it worked anyway. When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they tweak It's starting to look like four (ARM this time): http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/ - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:10:12 -0800 Grant emailgr...@gmail.com wrote: When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they tweak It's starting to look like four (ARM this time): http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/ I must be missing one: 68k - POWER POWER - Intel Intel - ARM I count the dev work to get iPhones and tablets working as a full migration as there is considerable overlap (even after ripping much stuff out that doesn't apply to phones and tablets). -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they tweak It's starting to look like four (ARM this time): http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/ I must be missing one: 68k - POWER POWER - Intel Intel - ARM Can't argue with that. 4 architectures, 3 migrations. My mistake. - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:33:26 -0800 Grant emailgr...@gmail.com wrote: When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they tweak It's starting to look like four (ARM this time): http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/ I must be missing one: 68k - POWER POWER - Intel Intel - ARM Can't argue with that. 4 architectures, 3 migrations. My mistake. I have to say it: the 6502 doesn't count :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?
Grant emailgrant at gmail.com writes: It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. For desktops and laptops, x86 was used simply because there was nothing else, so x86 is going to have to fight for it's survival And won't the manufacturers be more inclined to use a processor they can manufacture themselves under license than buy one from Intel or AMD? BINGO! Arm can be built via most any process or on top of a FPGA. Arm Ltd licenses the processors for CHEAP! Arm is the KING in the lowest heat produced per MIP/MOP/whatever, except for a select few DSPs on certain solutions. You can mix or match SIMD, MIMD or any other type of processor onto the substrate of your choice and ARM LTD does not care. Try that with TI, Intel, Freescale, Microchip, AMD or any other big silicon processor design owners. All sorts of Linux (embedded through distros) run on a wide variety of Arm platforms. The biggest embedded OS vendor (Wind River) is doing about 95% of their business on embedded Linux. Arm is KING in the embedded world. AMD has annouced their building next gen products on Arm with their AMD buss technologies. Arm is WAY FAR MORE FLEXIBLE than any other processor out their. Will x86 Die? No, but the game is ARM. (Period) Over. EVERYBODY is doing ARM. INTEL is a bunch of assholes in the the embedded world. Been there (i960) done that and left Intel decades ago as have most innovators. Companies such as TI (OMAP-5) are busy rolling out Arm15 products. The will not even sell the latest (hotest) Arm chips to anyone, because they are building a myriad of new products, direct to consumer and companies.. (oh yea remember TI has a variety of chips, processors, DSP, video and other technologies and ARM hybrids at TI (Omap-5) are the hotest new areas inside of TI. TI is not alone in the ARM conquest. I could go on for millions of pages of dead wreakage in the ARM wake, but that's pointless, it pretty much understood. You gonna put an Intel chip into robotics that go to Mars? Don't think so. I look for Microsoft to purchase AMD and build their own boxes, like Apple. Microsoft is the biggest looser in this ARM take all world... Folks will survive, but the future is now and it is ARM. Crap you can run Ubuntu on ARM now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM ;-)
