Re: [Gimp-developer] Hello newbie to the GNU/Linux/Open Source world.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:24:24 -0500, David Weeks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I live in Florida. Tampa specifically, which is a great city, even if I do live here. And know what is perpetually annoying? Yankees coming down talking about how they do it up North. I live in Belgium. Liège specifically, which is a great city as well. I am French-speaking but I work in Germany (in English) for a Swedish company. And you know what is perpetually annoying? Guys who think they know everything but apparently ignore what tolerance and openness mean. Guys who are not open to other points of view. Guys who have very important rants to write and cannot afford to spend five minutes or their precious time trying to understand others. Guys who flame others for no reason. For those of recent (that being within the last couple of years) arrival to the world of GNU/Linux/Open Source, live here a while before you go telling us how you did it back home. I arrived to the wonderful world of Linux a couple of months after Linux was announced in comp.os.minix. Before that, I had already a couple of years of experience with Free Software (gcc, emacs, ...) on various *nix platforms (Ultrix, SunOS, HP-UX, ...). The best thing about Free Software (and more recently, Open Source) is that it was (and still is) a welcoming community. I remember the cooperative attitude of those who accepted (or rejected) my first patches or my first questions to some GNU programs or to the X11 system. In some cases, they told me that I was wrong, but usually by telling me why and suggesting alternatives. Of course, there are always some holier-than-thou individuals on some mailing lists and newsgroups who will give a bad image to the whole community, but it does not take long to identify them and ignore them. Welcome to GNU/Linux/Open Source computing. Yours seems to be a very small and restrictive world. Fortunately, this is not the world that I am living in. I am glad to work on Free and Open Source software. I am glad that it works for Windows, MacOS X, Solaris, IRIX, *BSD and other systems such as Linux. I am glad that the software is there to serve the needs of many users regardless of their culture, opinions, level of experience or choice of operating system(s). I am glad that some developers who have worked hard and enhanced some *nix program are also trying to port it to Windows or MacOS X so that more users can benefit from it. The reason why (and I remember being a newbee, thinking guys like who I am now are just arrogant assholes, stuck in the past) we do things in *nix the way we do is because it works. I has worked for a long time, and being that it works, why make changes for constantly changing dialect, or drop well founded methods cause newbees find them too hard? Sometimes I am a *nix bigot or a Free Software bigot. I enjoy showing others how some of their problems can be solved easily by using an appropriate Free Software tool or a *nix operating system. But I also accept the fact that there are other solutions out there, and I try to understand what is good or bad about them instead of rejecting them immediately. If someone proposes to change something and add or drop some feature, then I try to understand their reasons instead of telling them immediately that they are wrong. I also try to understand who they are before calling them newbies. [...] My apologies to those who are right now saying: Duh? But from what I've been reading on this list, a teacher's corrections are in order. Any self-respecting teacher will make sure that he knows what he is talking about before starting his lesson. Note: I sent this message to the list. If you want to comment on it, feel free to do so publicly or via private e-mail. However, any further replies from me on the same topic will be sent by private e-mail only because I do not think that a long discussion about this is appropriate for this list. Best regards, -Raphaël ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Hello newbie to the GNU/Linux/Open Source world.
Raphaël Quinet wrote: you know what is perpetually annoying? Guys who think they know everything but apparently ignore what tolerance and openness mean. Guys who are not open to other points of view. Guys who have very important rants to write and cannot afford to spend five minutes or their precious time trying to understand others. Guys who flame others for no reason. At some stage, you really have to stop feeding the troll. He will go away at some stage. Or, he might start fixing bugs... the list of openm bugs for 1.2.4 is available at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?product=GIMPbug_status=UNCONFIRMEDbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=NEEDINFObug_status=REOPENEDtarget_milestone=1.2.4 There are 27 in all, with 1 blocker and at least 2 or 3 documentation bugs that would be easily fixable. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Marseille, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: regex+
Hi, Dov Grobgeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps replace it by pcre (www.pcre.org). It is pretty widely used these days. before you (or Robin) start to look for yet another regex replacement, you should probably have a look into the current GIMP development tree which has the problem solved already. Salut, Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: regex+
On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Dov Grobgeld wrote: Perhaps replace it by pcre (www.pcre.org). It is pretty widely used these days. The problem with Perl-compatible regular expression is that they are NP-complete: http://perl.plover.com/NPC/ Normal regular expressions are polynomial time. Throughout the entire years I used Perl, I think I avoided most of the features that make it NP-Complete and stuck to the regular expressions feature set, even if it made my code more complicated. Perl programmers who use the entire Perl feature set can easily cause their program to run very slowly. If you have Perl-compatibility in mind, you can use PCRE. But sometimes supplying only traditional regexps is not a bug but a feature as it ensures fast processing. Regards, Shlomi Fish Perhaps an advanced settings button that would toggle search by regular expression or literal string button would be the best. I think taking away a power option for the sake of simplicity is the wrong approach. Make simple things simple. Make complex things possible. That may be nice. For instance the Microsoft Word or DevStudio Find feature has an option to toggle regexps on and off. So does Konqueror. Regexps are very nice but they may confuse simpletons. (When I search for '?' it stops at every character) Regards, Shlomi Fish Regards, Dov On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:19:28PM -0800, Robin Rowe wrote: David, I think the point is probably to do a trawl through legacy code and see how much of it can be flushed, if any. I wish! Sometime later. Although regex is available with *nix, it isn't part of Windows. My choice is to remove it or fix the broken regex implemenation included in Film Gimp. That regex code is full of difficult to debug macros. Now that Robin knows that the regex code is useful, at least to some people, he's not planning on touching it. I'm not? Cheers, Robin --- www.FilmGimp.org www.LinuxMovies.org www.OpenSourceProgrammers.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ He who re-invents the wheel, understands much better how a wheel works. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: Film Gimp and GIMP
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (2002-11-27 at 2219.52 -0500): From what I heard, Gimp originally declined a merge with the hollywood branch, which I see as a serious mistake. Gimp isnt photoshop, and it isnt any other program that people compare it to. Gimp is more than all of them. And thanks to FG, Gimp can become much more than it is now. But I dont see this happening unless people realize having multiple (uncompatible) programs like this is extremly bad. And from what I heard, the decision was the following path: - 1.3-1.4: code clean ups and port to gtk+2, add new features that drop in without any problem. Port to other plataforms officially. Make the GUI a bit more logical, reuse keycombos, make common previews. All this should make the code suitable for the future, based in objects and so on. It should be something like all previous versions, but nicer in the surface and in the engine, but not a complete rework. - 1.x-2.0: support colour spaces and bit depths, macro recording or anything that done for 1.4 would mean a lot of job. This would use GEGL, which should be ready at that moment, or at least the core part should. Gimp would become an user of the lib, an interface, maybe a full video processor tool, based in scripting (after all, videos are ordered lists of images, and basic video processing has already been done with perl). It could be seen as a complete rework, or maybe not, I hope all the GUI can be plugged on top of the new system. The merge is 2.0, or more probably, there is no merge per se, cos future code should do it from the lower levels. Thus merging with 1.0 code that would be deprecated anyway would mean more caos than real help. As anyone can guess, working GEGL can be done now, while the main clean up is done in the 1.3. The status of Film Gimp for me was some people use it, they got something solved, and as program it is a nice experiment, next time we will do it in core, not as patch. If some other people need or what something else / more, fine, but no other of the rest have to follow. issues. And a GEGL enabled Gimp is so far off, it will be years before I see it done. As a heavy user and supporter of Gimp, I deserve the occational feature request, and my request is that higher precision rendering is added asap. And coders deserve the right to have a live, I guess. That is a natural characteristic of free time projects: they evolve as the people's mood and time allows. :] If there is market, I suppose people could start a business about coding under contract and make everything go faster or port or wathever. If there is none, there is only accepting more strong limitations and go on as they allow. GSR ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Film Gimp and GIMP
On 28-Nov-2002, Sven Neumann wrote: the point is that the new film-gimp maintainer or any of the people working on film-gimp don't communicate with us at all. The project somehow came back to life without any notification on this mailing-list. We had to hear about it in the news. Among these news that appeared on the internet is a lot of wrong information. To me it looks as if the film-gimp people try to actively spread FUD about the gimp project. Hrm. Side note, They got $1k from Linuxfund to further their project... hrm... this is exactly the wrong information I referred to above. The film-gimp web-site makes you think that the film-gimp people expressed an interest to merge and the gimp people refused to take this into account. This is just plain wrong. oh. heh. It has always been the goal of the GIMP developers to merge the features needed for film-editing into the main GIMP. This has been a major subject on the GIMP developers conference. We were happy to have Caroline and Calvin at the conference who explained the concepts of GEGL as well as the needs of the film industry to us and I'm glad to see that they are still actively developing the GEGL library. I also liked the idea of the new film-gimp project to make the HOLLYWOOD branch available to a larger audience. Building a reasonably functional tarball that everyone can build was a good thing to do. Now people have something to play with and can start improving the gimp core and GEGL so that the main gimp can have these features as well. The direction the film-gimp project is taking at the moment seems like a wasted effort to me. That is my personal opinion and I have strong arguments for it but so far none of the film-gimp developers have asked for it and I will thus keep my arguments for me. Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at. Gimp 2.x is where all of us (gimp, and film gimp developers) should be going. -- Patrick Diablo-D3 McFarland || [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. --Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989 msg03126/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
[Gimp-developer] Re: Film Gimp and GIMP
On 2002-11-28 at 1259.18 -0500, Patrick McFarland typed this: Hrm. Side note, They got $1k from Linuxfund to further their project... hrm... $1k would not be enough to by the beer for the people who develop The GIMP (if i can at least add correctly). carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Film Gimp and GIMP
On Nov 28 Carol Spears ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: $1k would not be enough to by the beer for the people who develop The GIMP (if i can at least add correctly). If any GIMP developers come to visit Research Triangle Park (Central North Carolina, USA) please drop me an email. I'd be happy to buy you a beer. Steve -- Steve Lipa [EMAIL PROTECTED] gpg fingerprint = 8B68 77D7 9E09 9991 C97E 25FF 6A12 D2B9 EC7D 66C1 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Intolerance, and development.
David Weeks wrote: Tolerance isn't the lack of criticism, and intolerance isn't the act of criticism, and beyond that, some things are tolerable, and some things are not. So let's drop the troll intolerant ignorant crap and deal with information. These reactions are human nature, and responsible for the strife in the world; just look at this list. Actually, your abusive behaviour's been responsible for the strife on the list. People in general have been polite, even offerring you an excuse to back out early (drunkenness) and get back to business. But that wasn't good enough for you, so you started another 2 threads (including this one). Please, drop it. Free discusion of ideas means it's all good, even the bad and the ugly, cause that bad and ugly might be the fact that we're wrong, and someone was rude in pointing it out. Actually, free discussion comes with some responsibility. A good question to ask is Would I write this e-mail to a work colleague I'm going to meet beside the coffee machine? - I don't think you would have. Or if you had, you would have been a bit more articulate :) In brief, you're new to the list (your first mail was a couple of weeks ago about MNG support - I looked), and should probably avoid abusive behaviour for a while, unless you want to get a bad name, and be ignored. My problem of recent days started with a reply to a requested feature: mng support. The response I got was that I had a lot of nerve asking someone else to slave for me. That's inaccurate. So here's the challenge: who thinks that not knowing what regular expressions are, or thinking that a feature request is wrong, is an indication of knowing what you're doing as an open source developer in the GNU/Linux community? This is the GIMP community, not the GNU/Linux community. And here, not knowing what a regex is is probably the norm. And open source developers don't have to code on Unix. Please, keep quiet for a while, for your own good. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Marseille, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
