Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 08:20:51PM -0500, Brendan wrote: Please, oh Lord, someone fork Gimp. Actually, I doubt that forking the codebase and starting a new project will solve the problems we're facing. Starting new projects is always easier than manage them, as well as facing problems and solving them. It would make sens if the project comes to a nearly dead end. But this is not the case. Be patient and/or join the development would be much smarter, in my opinion. Greetings, -- Roman Joost www: http://www.romanofski.de email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpGPeRjDoVBk.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Brendan writes: Please, oh Lord, someone fork Gimp. I can imagine the scenario: (This is a parody, not a flame) Someones forks GIMP, sets up a project on (say) SourceForge. He spends lots of effort on the project's web page. (He is a c00l web designer.) It has a long list of features that this forked GIMP will have. The small print at the bottom says looking for developers. --tml ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Hi, Martin Nordholts [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, I think that when you use GIMP, the taskbar quickly gets bloated with lots of images. Would a TDI (Tabbed Document Interface) be very tough to implement in GIMP? TDI's have become very popular, and afaik lots of people agrees that TDIs are very effective for handling multiple documents. We are already addressing the taskbar problem in the development version but some more changes will be needed to get this right. Having the possibility to combine multiple images in a single image window using tabs is not a new idea and it has always been welcomed. I wonder why we are discussing this again. The tabbed image window has been suggested before and I don't think that we have ever objected that it is a good idea and that it would fit well with the GIMP UI. Someone just needs to implement it. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Hi, Brendan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder how many times it will take to hear the Perhaps Gimp should think about having a Photoshop-mode before we'll stop defending Gimp's interface... How many times will it take before people realize how much work it would be to add and support different modes in the user interface? It's simply not worth it, especially since it is a widely accepted fact in user interface design that such modes are a bad idea. We can improve the GIMP UI and it will improve. But if you really think that the only acceptable user interface is a perfect clone of Photoshop, then why don't you go ahead and start a project that aims to create such a clone? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Hi, Alexandre Prokoudine [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When you say get rid of you mean distribute its menu items over menus in each document's window? Yes. And when it's done will toolbox still be an always floating window or optionally dockable one? We will have to evaluate this based on user scenarios. ButI don't think we would reject a clean patch that adds this functionality. Simply distributing menu items sounds like a fairly easy task. It is definitely not easy to get a menu structure done right. OK, the File menu will be easy because most of its entries are already in the image's File menu. Help will be easy as well, it would just be moved as is. But can you make reasonable suggestions for where to place all the items that are currently in the Xtns menu? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name'Extensions'
I apologize criticizing GIMP for not having a Photoshop-like interface. After a bunch of more insightful replies (mostly Carol's) I realize that GIMP doesn't strive to be the Photoshop of the OSS communities. I guess I have been blinded by the numerous GIMP vs Photoshop articles I have read, and that most distros specify GIMP as the Photoshop counterpart in their 'what is the linux counterpart of insert common windows software?'-tables aimed at linux newbies. Besides being unused to the GIMP interface, the functionality i miss the most is the 'layer effects' of Photoshop. As far as i have understood, GIMP will not implement this until GEGL is ready, right? So if I want 'layer effects' in GIMP, I should contribute to GEGL first? I read all the messages that created this flame war. As I am the one who started this thread, I apologize for this too. However, I do not think this discussion has hade so many flames, though there are some, which is sad. To me this discussion has given me insights. Thanks so far for all good replies to this subject. _ Lättare att hitta drömresan med MSN Resor http://www.msn.se/resor/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On Thursday 23 March 2006 03:44, you wrote: Hi, Brendan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder how many times it will take to hear the Perhaps Gimp should think about having a Photoshop-mode before we'll stop defending Gimp's interface... How many times will it take before people realize how much work it would be to add and support different modes in the user interface? It's simply not worth it, especially since it is a widely accepted fact in user interface design that such modes are a bad idea. We can improve the GIMP UI and it will improve. But if you really think that the only acceptable user interface is a perfect clone of Photoshop, then why don't you go ahead and start a project that aims to create such a clone? I am primarily a KDE hacker. I already donate piles of time to that effort, including writing docs. I use Gimp almost every day, but I hear it continuously about the need to have it at least have a PS compatibility mode, from graphic designers who would love to use it. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On 3/23/06, Brendan wrote: I am primarily a KDE hacker. I already donate piles of time to that effort, including writing docs. I use Gimp almost every day, but I hear it continuously about the need to have it at least have a PS compatibility mode, from graphic designers who would love to use it. Okay, 1. You are a KDE hacker. 2. You know what donating time is. 3. You need PS compatibility mode in a graphics editor. 4. You already have Krita that looks and behaves more like PS in some ways. Why do you keep using GIMP? Why don't you help Boudewijn with tracking down bugs in Krita 1.5 beta2? Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
For people who want layer erffects and photoshop style interface. goto... http://www.kanzelsberger.com/pixel/?page_id=9 Can we have a section in Gimp's FAQ about why the Gimp does not directly copy Photoshop? - Cam Brendan wrote: On Thursday 23 March 2006 03:44, you wrote: Hi, Brendan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder how many times it will take to hear the Perhaps Gimp should think about having a Photoshop-mode before we'll stop defending Gimp's interface... How many times will it take before people realize how much work it would be to add and support different modes in the user interface? It's simply not worth it, especially since it is a widely accepted fact in user interface design that such modes are a bad idea. We can improve the GIMP UI and it will improve. But if you really think that the only acceptable user interface is a perfect clone of Photoshop, then why don't you go ahead and start a project that aims to create such a clone? I am primarily a KDE hacker. I already donate piles of time to that effort, including writing docs. I use Gimp almost every day, but I hear it continuously about the need to have it at least have a PS compatibility mode, from graphic designers who would love to use it. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer -- Campbell J Barton 133 Hope Street Geelong West, Victoria 3218 Australia URL:http://www.metavr.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: AU (03) 5229 0241 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On Thursday 23 March 2006 05:46, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 3/23/06, Brendan wrote: I am primarily a KDE hacker. I already donate piles of time to that effort, including writing docs. I use Gimp almost every day, but I hear it continuously about the need to have it at least have a PS compatibility mode, from graphic designers who would love to use it. Okay, 1. You are a KDE hacker. 2. You know what donating time is. 3. You need PS compatibility mode in a graphics editor. 4. You already have Krita that looks and behaves more like PS in some ways. Why do you keep using GIMP? Why don't you help Boudewijn with tracking down bugs in Krita 1.5 beta2? Because I've used Gimp since pre1.0 and I want to see it succeed? ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Why do you keep using GIMP? Why don't you help Boudewijn with tracking down bugs in Krita 1.5 beta2? Great way to attract collaborators. I guess many people love the GIMP, but they don't have the attitude to cooperate in its development; I could not be this harsh even if I tried. Alex. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On 3/23/06, Alex Fernandez wrote: Why do you keep using GIMP? Why don't you help Boudewijn with tracking down bugs in Krita 1.5 beta2? Great way to attract collaborators. I guess many people love the GIMP, but they don't have the attitude to cooperate in its development; I could not be this harsh even if I tried. I wasn't going to be any harsh, sorry if I was. Please bear in mind that for every action there is a reason. If someone with experience of contribution to FOSS keeps insisting that other people should change their plans and start playing catch-up games with Adobe and use UI approach almost everybody else has abandoned, if he keeps doing it though it was publicly annonced that it's not going to happen, there must be some reason why he thinks it's a good idea. And that's what I'm trying to find out. Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Alex Fernandez wrote: Why do you keep using GIMP? Why don't you help Boudewijn with tracking down bugs in Krita 1.5 beta2? Great way to attract collaborators. I guess many people love the GIMP, but they don't have the attitude to cooperate in its development; I could not be this harsh even if I tried. Both questions are valid. How would you phrase them to be less harsh? Please also keep in mind that many people here aren't native speakers, and this question wouldn't necessarily be harsh in any way in e.g. German (it would depend a lot on the tone to make it harsh there). HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Both questions are valid. They are not valid. If someone said she was a KDE developer on a Mozilla list, would you think it right to ask why is she using Firefox instead of helping out with Konqueror? How would you phrase them to be less harsh? Not making them. It is one thing to be curt and to the point; but suggesting your users to go use something else is always harsh. To do it with potential developers is just crazy. How about Hey Brendan, glad you use our program even if your primary desktop is KDE; we would be glad to accept any patches you cared to send our way, but our primary focus is not Photoshop emulation? Please also keep in mind that many people here aren't native speakers, and this question wouldn't necessarily be harsh in any way in e.g. German (it would depend a lot on the tone to make it harsh there). Not true. In any language they translate to why do you keep playing in our playground? why don't you go play in yours instead? Not very polite. Alex. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Alex Fernandez wrote: Both questions are valid. They are not valid. If someone said she was a KDE developer on a Mozilla list, would you think it right to ask why is she using Firefox instead of helping out with Konqueror? If he wants to convert Firefox into Konqueror, I would ask this, yes. How would you phrase them to be less harsh? Not making them. It is one thing to be curt and to the point; but suggesting your users to go use something else is always harsh. To do it with potential developers is just crazy. Well, if a user comes with needs that your product can't fulfill, isn't it polite to tell them that there are others (Alexandre did this) and then ask them why they don't use it? E.g. people are pointed to ImageMagick, Inkscape, Blender and Cinepaint on gimp lists and forums, because each of these apps ahs different strengths than GIMP. This time, it was Krita. How about Hey Brendan, glad you use our program even if your primary desktop is KDE; we would be glad to accept any patches you cared to send our way, but our primary focus is not Photoshop emulation? See, now this is something I'd read as ironic :) Please also keep in mind that many people here aren't native speakers, and this question wouldn't necessarily be harsh in any way in e.g. German (it would depend a lot on the tone to make it harsh there). Not true. In any language they translate to why do you keep playing in our playground? why don't you go play in yours instead? Not very polite. If you like to read them like this, it's your opinion. But maybe you should lower your expectations in regard to politeness on a mailing list and assume that as long as someone isn't insulting others directly (by using words that clearly indicate that he is), he isn't trying to be impolite either? HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On 3/23/06, Sven Neumann wrote: And when it's done will toolbox still be an always floating window or optionally dockable one? We will have to evaluate this based on user scenarios. ButI don't think we would reject a clean patch that adds this functionality. Sure :) Simply distributing menu items sounds like a fairly easy task. It is definitely not easy to get a menu structure done right. OK, the File menu will be easy because most of its entries are already in the image's File menu. Help will be easy as well, it would just be moved as is. But can you make reasonable suggestions for where to place all the items that are currently in the Xtns menu? It seems to me that bugzilla is a better place for further discussion. I found following relevant entries: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116145 (UI clarity - re-organize scripts and plug-ins in the menus) http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145507 (rearrangement of Xtns Menu options) Which one would you pick to proceed further? Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
They are not valid. If someone said she was a KDE developer on a Mozilla list, would you think it right to ask why is she using Firefox instead of helping out with Konqueror? If he wants to convert Firefox into Konqueror, I would ask this, yes. But he doesn't! He said that the GIMP could have a PS compatibility mode (not even for him, but for designer friends); and he was asked why he didn't hack on Krita which is a different tool (but with overlapping functionality). How about Hey Brendan, glad you use our program even if your primary desktop is KDE; we would be glad to accept any patches you cared to send our way, but our primary focus is not Photoshop emulation? See, now this is something I'd read as ironic :) This says a lot about the tone of the mailing list. If you like to read them like this, it's your opinion. But maybe you should lower your expectations in regard to politeness on a mailing list and assume that as long as someone isn't insulting others directly (by using words that clearly indicate that he is), he isn't trying to be impolite either? I have been reading many different developer mailing lists for several years now, and I've seen endless bickering, flaming, trolling, baiting... but this aggressive attitude towards potential developers and despise for users is unheard of. It is IMHO very unprofessional and steers people away from the list and the program. Don't get me wrong; I love the GIMP, it's a great piece of software. I have even contributed a tiny patch to Peyronnet's great FFT filter: http://people.via.ecp.fr/~remi/soft/gimp/gimp_plugin_en.php3 For my needs GIMP is perfect; I would love if it could grow to fulfill the needs of many different people, from complete novices to 32-bit-crazed professionals, and there is a lot of work to do. It is not like you can afford turning away any helping hands. People are usually proud of belonging to a helpful community, and are turned away by impolite answers like this one. Alex. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Alex Fernandez wrote: It is not like you can afford turning away any helping hands. I think this gets us back on track. People are usually proud of belonging to a helpful community, and are turned away by impolite answers like this one. IMO is is still arguable whether Alexandre's questions were impolite. As he states himself, he didn't intend them to be read this way, and there's no indication that we shouldn't believe him (if anything is impolite towards others, it's our current off-topic meta-discussion). So, let's try some kind of summary (I'll try not to judge the points): - GIMP is not aiming to be a copy of Photoshop - people can suggest better solutions that fit other's needs - direct questions are impolite - impoliteness drives away potential GIMP users and developers We've already established that the two of us disagree on the third point, so it's probably pointless to discuss this further. I woin't mind if you'd like to comment on this message, of course, but we could declare EOT otherwise. HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On 3/23/06, Alex Fernandez wrote: But he doesn't! He said that the GIMP could have a PS compatibility mode For usability's sake it's not good to introduce modes that make same application look and behave different. It was countless times announced by developers in this and other mailing lists that they do wish to improve GUI of GIMP, but that they don't want to clone PS. Sven wrote a special posting about it in his blog recently. All of this is publicly available information, cached by Google. Do you think GIMP needs a full-time employee to talk to every single person who doesn't want to read what is already written and listen to what he is told? ;-) To put an end to this dejavu-making thread I suggest extending http://www.gimp.org/about/introduction.html with the following text, originated from Gnumeric's description at gnomefiles.org: GIMP is intended to be a powerful innovative tool, not a drop-in replacement to any of existing proprietary software. We are not attempting to clone existing applications. That said, I'm quitting reasoning anyone who starts this old good gimme PS-like GUI here. Sorry for any inconveniences whatsoever. Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Thanks developers
I've watched, somewhat intrigued, the discussions about abbreviations, user interfaces, and whether it's more important to have elegant, largely unused code, or massively popular code that perhaps isn't entirely clean. I'd like to add my perspective as a user. 1) Making the interface just like photoshop seems like a fools errand. Photoshop's interface changes from time to time, sometimes quite significantly (friends who use it are currently expressing mixed feelings about Bridge). 2) Everything is a little different, even subsequent releases of M$ software. Folks learn to deal with that, provided they get what they need, and can see that it's worth the change. 3) If developer resources are hard to find, of course you can't put unbounded effort into lots of WIBNIF features. 4) Right now, there's only one compelling reason I use photoshop (yes, sadly, I use both. I use GIMP for the bulk of stuff I do) and that's color managment. I strongly suspect that there's very few photographers or graphic artists who takes their work seriously who doesn't feel a strong need for good color matching. Heck, even Costco of all mass market places offers individual color profiles for their in-store printers! So, I'd like to offer my thanks to the developers: it's a fantastic tool. I'd like to offer my encouragement too: you're doing a great job with very limited resources. I'd like to offer my vote (I know I don't have one really, but whatever) that you don't worry too much about the UI, but that you don't forget about color management. I'd love to shut down my little, ancient, overloaded and underpowered iBook for the last time. Great job developers, thanks. Simon You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. Naguib Mahfouz __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
We can improve the GIMP UI and it will improve. But if you really think that the only acceptable user interface is a perfect clone of Photoshop, then why don't you go ahead and start a project that aims to create such a clone? Weren't people complaining about Gimpshop forking instead of trying to help change the GIMP? I am primarily a KDE hacker. I already donate piles of time to that effort, including writing docs. I use Gimp almost every day, but I hear it continuously about the need to have it at least have a PS compatibility mode, from graphic designers who would love to use it. Are they aware of the psmenurc which can be used to give photoshop like keybindings? I find it very useful but unfortunately there is no way to set this in the user interface which is probably enough to guarantee most users never discover it (I've added similar comments to a few bug reports over the years). There are a few other extension and plugins which can help smooth the transition. Instead of all those Versus articles it would be nice if a journalist could for a change write about similarities and what functionality most closely corresponds to what they are expecting which might help users to adapt. (Although like others I'd prefer if users didn't have to adapt quite so much and if more changes were made to meet peoples expectations unless there was a specific reasons not to accept changes.) Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Alex Fernandez wrote: I have been reading many different developer mailing lists for several years now, and I've seen endless bickering, flaming, trolling, baiting... but this aggressive attitude towards potential developers and despise for users is unheard of. It is IMHO very unprofessional and steers people away from the list and the program. Don't get me wrong; I love the GIMP, it's a great piece of software. I have even contributed a tiny patch to Peyronnet's great FFT filter: http://people.via.ecp.fr/~remi/soft/gimp/gimp_plugin_en.php3 For my needs GIMP is perfect; I would love if it could grow to fulfill the needs of many different people, from complete novices to 32-bit-crazed professionals, and there is a lot of work to do. It is not like you can afford turning away any helping hands. People are usually proud of belonging to a helpful community, and are turned away by impolite answers like this one. Um, perhaps it is a matter of tone, but knowing Alexandre and working with him on projects, he is a: very professional b: not agressive with users. In defense of the GIMP team, they are (unfairly IMO) criticized by those who are not attuned to the actual state of development and their stated goals. Call it support fatigue if you will, but these kinds of issues have been discussed to death and the GIMP developers have clearly, in many places, stated their goals and their reasoning behind it. I think Alexandre was rightly trying to point you in a direction which might be more productive to achieve your wishes. (e.g.) Your familiarity with KDE/Qt, the Krita's team obvious need for help etc. Peter ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
But he doesn't! He said that the GIMP could have a PS compatibility mode For usability's sake it's not good to introduce modes that make same application look and behave different. I completely agree with this. Probably docking palettes or something like this would be all that is needed to make people feel comfortable with the interface. It was countless times announced by developers in this and other mailing lists that they do wish to improve GUI of GIMP, but that they don't want to clone PS. Sven wrote a special posting about it in his blog recently. All of this is publicly available information, cached by Google. Yes, I have read it countless times on this very same list. I suppose it must be tiring after a few years, but still. Do you think GIMP needs a full-time employee to talk to every single person who doesn't want to read what is already written and listen to what he is told? ;-) If need be. What is really missing is someone who listens carefully and tries to accomodate users' needs. Users probably don't need a Photoshop clone; as has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, Photoshop changes regularly so it's a moving target. But if 100 users tell you something, then there is probably a need; they probably would appreciate a different interface which does not need a desktop all for itself. I know I would; at home on my SUSE I can spare a desktop, at work on Windows I can't. Please, please think that these same people are honestly trying to help. They take the trouble to write to a mailing list full of strangers and put out a suggestion which is usually new for them. Thanks for your time, we appreciate your efforts. Just be patient with us people. Alex. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 06:59:40PM +0100, Alex Fernandez wrote: Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: It was countless times announced by developers in this and other mailing lists that they do wish to improve GUI of GIMP, but that they don't want to clone PS. Sven wrote a special posting about it in his blog recently. All of this is publicly available information, cached by Google. Yes, I have read it countless times on this very same list. I suppose it must be tiring after a few years, but still. there is a bigger picture that is missing when people make this request, at least it might be. let me try to explain this bigger picture as i see it. it is much more fun to write this stuff to fill in gaps that the big guys left out. i watch in my world as the large and capable merchant machines squeeze out the little merchants, for instance. at the same time, i lived there and the little merchants were not the best players in the world either, so it is really not a good guy vs bad guy example i am making. i have been watching the gimp developers work for years now. it is interesting to see the impact that gimp has had on photoshop. gimp improved photoshop, if what i saw was accurate. lately, it *looks* like the only thing that photoshop has left to work with is that everyone wants gimp to look like it. poor photoshop! this once proud application is now seeming to beg gimp to look like it. it is a better world and a better (for lack of a different word) game and more fun to play (play like play the game or play like play in the world) if photoshop can stress the gimp developers by its functionality and its ability to change the world by making good graphics and not stressing the gimp developers. gimp should be there for those users who understand that they do not want to steal and that this desire to not steal means they might have to learn to do things differently. i probably should apply the same logic to points in my life, but that is a different thread that does not belong on this list. no matter how direct our answers or tired the developers seem, honestly, it is really cool to have gotten your attention. if you can help photoshop to not look so desparate, the software world will probably be better for it. as usual, i might be wrong again about all of this carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] pspi for gimp on linux
there are rumors lately that tor will be working on getting the pspi filter thingies working on linux. when they become available will that be announced on this list? i am curious to no end about these; my idea is that even i will be able to write a pure gimp equivelent of them. they simply have not been available to me on the computer that i use yet. there is always the chance that photoshop plug-ins are a magical thing that a simpleton like me could not ever concieve of emulating, it would be nice for me to know this though. carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Thanks developers
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 07:07:19AM -0800, Simon Roberts wrote: I've watched, somewhat intrigued, the discussions about abbreviations, user interfaces, and whether it's more important to have elegant, largely unused code, or massively popular code that perhaps isn't entirely clean. I'd like to add my perspective as a user. And mine: I've never used photoshop, so I have no idea what its UI might have that I would like. The point is, I am *used* to the gimp UI, flawed or not. If, for some strange reason, I were to find myself forced to use photoshop, I'm sure I'd be grumbling because it didn't act like the gimp. From a user's perspective, there is nothing more irritating than to have a familiar interface suddenly undergo drastic changes. So please consider very carefully before performing major surgery on it. As to tabbed image-windows, which was mentioned in the discussion, that is easily-achievable with the gimp in fluxbox. Seems to me to be more of a wm issue, unless I'm not understanding what's being discussed (highly likely...) So, I'd like to offer my thanks to the developers: it's a fantastic tool. I'd like to offer my encouragement too: you're doing a great job with very limited resources. Hear, hear! Scott Swanson ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 04:22:19PM +0100, PLinnell wrote: In defense of the GIMP team, they are (unfairly IMO) criticized by those who are not attuned to the actual state of development and their stated goals. Call it support fatigue if you will, but these kinds of issues have been discussed to death and the GIMP developers have clearly, in many places, stated their goals and their reasoning behind it. if i can add my view to this i remember when tor first ported gimp to windows. this was a wonderful time in gimp development and a lot of that had to do with tor himself. he did not demand and insist that the port be made, he asked questions as he worked on it. those emails were some of the nicest of exchanges i have ever read on this list. the way tor spoke so respectfully to all of the people who were active at the time, even old enemies dropped their problems with each other and joined together to help him. this was inspite of the fact that none of them were very happy about gimp being used on windows. i don't think that everyone needs to be as eloquent as tor lillqvist (although, wouldn't that be nice! me included!) but it is easier to be have effective communications with this group if you ask questions while you are working yourself on it. and tor, god bless him, was having problems getting his scanner to work on linux, heh. i read that page. thanks for all of the interested parties... carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: pspi for gimp on linux
Carol Spears writes: there are rumors lately that tor will be working on getting the pspi filter thingies working on linux. when they become available will that be announced on this list? Sure; Today I built pspi on SUSE 10 and Ubuntu. Downloadable from http://www.gimp.org/~tml/gimp/win32/pspi.html . Hopefully the Ubuntu binary works for Debian, too? Or are the shared library sonames too different? I wonder whether either binary might work on Fedora, too? Sorry, no distro-specific packages (.rpm or .dev), just tarballs with three files: README.linux, pspi and pspi.exe.so. Plus a source tarball, of course. there is always the chance that photoshop plug-ins are a magical thing that a simpleton like me could not ever concieve of emulating, it would be nice for me to know this though. Well, many of them *are* quite trivial and already implemented in GIMP. But I guess some of them are not that trivial. Please also keep in mind that pspi works only with 3rd-party Photoshop plug-ins, not the ones by Adobe that ship with Photoshop. Here's the contents of pspi's README.linux: How to use a binary Linux distribution of pspi == You should have three files: README.linux, this file pspi, a small shell script pspi.exe.so, the binary that wine runs Copy pspi and pspi.exe.so to your personal GIMP plug-ins folder, typically ~/.gimp-2.2/plug-ins . When you run GIMP it will issue a warning wire_read(): error as pspi.exe.so isn't a GIMP plug-in. This warning is harmless (GIMP just ignores that file then), but if you want to avoid it, move pspi.exe.so somewhere else and modify the pspi script to point to its new location instead. After starting GIMP, go to the Xtns:Photoshop Plug-in Settings and enter the folder where you are going to keep the 3rd-party Photoshop plug-ins (.8bf files) that you want to use in GIMP. Preferrably you should use an initially empty folder for this, and then install (copy) Photoshop plug-ins there one by one, verifying that each works. It isn't really useful to rush and install a shitload of Photoshop plug-ins at once and assume they all will work under pspi. And here is the general README file: Introduction This is pspi, a GIMP plug-in that interfaces to Photoshop filter plug-ins. First, the bad news: Pspi only works on systems that understand i386 Windows executables, more specifically, DLLs. (Photoshop plug-ins are actually DLLs.) Pspi was developed on (i386) Windows. It is also possible to build and use it on i386 Linux, using Wine. To build pspi, you will need the headers from the Adobe Photoshop 6 SDK. It used to freely available from Adobe, but unfortunately isn't any longer. If you can find an old copy of Photoshop 6, the SDK is included on the CD. To build pspi on Linux, configure it like this: CC=winegcc ./configure --with-pssdk=/path/to/pssdk6 Before compiling on Linux, you need to fix a few glitches in the PS6 SDK headers: -In PhotoshopAPI/Pica_sp/SPProps.h, change the #include of SPMdata.h to use the correct file name SPMData.h. (On Windows, this of course is not relevant as the file system is case-insensitive.) -In SampleCode/Common/Include/PIUtilities.h, comment out the #include of Types.h, whatever that is, which is not needed. -In SampleCode/Common/Include/WinUtilities, put the extern C begin and end braces inside #ifdef __cplusplus..#endif . Debugging pspi == You can set the environment variable PSPI_DEBUG to have pspi print out various debugging messages at run-time, for instance (in a Windows command prompt): set PSPI_DEBUG=resource_suite:debugger (or in a Linux shell): export PSPI_DEBUG=pipl See the source code for other possible values. Obviously, this environment variable must be set before starting the GIMP (which eventually runs pspi). On Windows, as pspi is a Windows GUI application, to actually see the debugging print-out, you have to start GIMP from a command line with stdout going somewhere, for instance: gimp --verbose | cat This stdout redirection will be inherited by GIMP's children, like pspi. Run-time setup == Pspi has a search path consisting of folders where to search for Photoshop filter plug-ins, which are files with the extension .8BF. These folders are searched recursively. Pspi stores info about the Photoshop plug-ins found in the pspirc file in the user's personal GIMP directory. The first time a .8BF file is noticed, pspi loads it and searches for the so-called PIPL resources, which contain some more information about the Photoshop plug-in, for instance where it should be located in Photoshop's Filter menu. It gets a identical menu entry in GIMP's Image/Filter menu. Unless the .8BF file changes, it isn't loaded on subsequent GIMP starts, but only when the filter is invoked. Also files with the extensions .EFF and .DLL are checked to see if they are Photoshop plug-ins. Reverse engineering
[Gimp-developer] Macedonian translations dissapeared
Almost a 1 1/2 months ago I uploaded the updated .po files for Macedonian translation here http://l10n-status.gnome.org/HEAD/mk/extras/index.html and after that, they appeared as yellow (empty strings). I thought it is temporally error in the script, but this is going on too long now. I don't know if I'm writing to the right mailing list, but I feel really frustrated. I translated alone all files for almost 6 months, and now it is possible that gimp 2.4 will be out without Macedonian translations (100% translated). Please someone correct this issue. Regards Vladimir Stefanov ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Bring Back the Keyboard!
On Tue, 2006-02-14 at 18:56 -0800, Akkana Peck wrote: Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris writes: Unless, of course, the filename is in the ~/.gimp-2.x dir and you try to getthere by start typing . I am serious about this: I _lost_ almost 20 minutes in a 3 hour workshop trying to get people to open files in ~/.gimp-2.x - and It really is fairly tricky with the new file selector to explain to people how to get to files in ~/.gimp (for instance, to save or manage custom brushes, gradients etc.) This is fairly late on the discussion, and hopefully (!) wont dig up the flameware YET AGAIN to the surface, but there's a Show hidden files menu entry in the context menu on the file dialog's file list. It works nicely, try it. :-) Also, personally I like the new file selector _a lot_ more than the old. Drag some bookmarks to the left side, for places you often need to tab-complete into, it really is handy. Yes, it is different from what you were used to. Please try to be open minded. Most people seem to have a weird idea that regular users from windows really want and need to access files in hidden directories with the file selector.. Just because you were used to the old one, does not necessarily mean it is the best interface for everyone. The old one was regarded sucky for a LONG time. We just learned to use it. Do the same for the new, please and lets move on. We can improve the new one once we can leave the past behind :) //Tuomas -- A: No Q: Should i quote this on the top? ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] ./configure not finding glib?
Hello again! The first step for me to be able to contribute to GIMP is making it build. I have downloaded and compiled several libraries, but I am having problem with glib. I downloaded the 2.10.1 glib tarball from gnome servers, and ran ./configure, make, make install succesfully (well at least it appeared that way). However, when I run the ./configure it fails when it checks glib version. The strange thing is that when I run glib-config --version, it spits out 1.-something. That's weird isn't it? I have a Mandriva 2006 Free Edition and it is a very default installation, i.e. I guess there is no problem with not passing any arguments to ./configure, since mandriva uses the default /usr/local/-path for stuff. While I'm at it, why do you have to type ./configure? Isn't ./ just the name for the current directory? I am quite new to linux, and this is my first attempt to compile anything this big with this much dependencies. Does anyone know why it gimp/configure doesn't identify the fresh from-source-installation of glib 2.10.1? (And btw, is this the right place to ask this question?) Sincerly, Martin Nordholts, Sweden _ Nyhet! Hotmail direkt i din Mobil! http://mobile.msn.com/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] ./configure not finding glib?
On 3/24/06, Martin Nordholts wrote: The first step for me to be able to contribute to GIMP is making it build. I have downloaded and compiled several libraries, but I am having problem with glib. I downloaded the 2.10.1 glib tarball from gnome servers, and ran ./configure, make, make install succesfully (well at least it appeared that way). However, when I run the ./configure it fails when it checks glib version. A couple of questions. 1. For which version of GIMP are you trying to compile these most modern libs? 2. Did you try to find prebuilt prerequisit RPMs for your distribution if they are missing from CD? There should be a simpler way to get things done ;) Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why be cryptic? 'Xtns' should be name 'Extensions'
Looking at the menu we have. 1) Plugin/script development tools 2) Scripts that create new images. 3) The Module and Unit Editors Wouldn't it make sense to refactor 2) into the file menu - either as a new from script, or into the new file dialog - as a special type of template even. 3) should probably be folded into the preferences dialog. Which leaves 1) I would suggest Tools as a menu name purhaps. I would also suggest moving the debug submenu here... (note word suggest, I encourage somebody to think of something better) -- Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with. -- Mark Twain ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: pspi for gimp on linux
But how are these filters licensed by Adobe ? Cedric ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] ./configure not finding glib?
Oops, forgot to tell. I try to compile the latest tarball: GIMP 2.3.7. Yep, I first and foremost looked for precompiled libs in Mandrivas packet manager, but I didn't find some of them, though lots of libs are directly installed from there. From: Alexandre Prokoudine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: GIMPDev gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] ./configure not finding glib? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 01:19:45 +0300 On 3/24/06, Martin Nordholts wrote: The first step for me to be able to contribute to GIMP is making it build. I have downloaded and compiled several libraries, but I am having problem with glib. I downloaded the 2.10.1 glib tarball from gnome servers, and ran ./configure, make, make install succesfully (well at least it appeared that way). However, when I run the ./configure it fails when it checks glib version. A couple of questions. 1. For which version of GIMP are you trying to compile these most modern libs? 2. Did you try to find prebuilt prerequisit RPMs for your distribution if they are missing from CD? There should be a simpler way to get things done ;) Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer _ Lättare att hitta drömresan med MSN Resor http://www.msn.se/resor/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Thanks developers
On 3/23/06, Simon Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Making the interface just like photoshop seems like a foolserrand. I've always viewed the arguement analogous to English versus Spanish (or pick your favorite language). Photoshop may be like English (lots of people use it), but why would you argue that Spanish speakers should put their adjectives before their nouns... Words have a sense of gender in Spanish, but not English - that's OK. Both work, have different rules, and different ways of doing things, but the both ultimately allow you to communicate. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] ./configure not finding glib?
Hi Martin, On Mar 23 at 11:14:57, Martin Nordholts wrote: The strange thing is that when I run glib-config --version, it spits out 1.-something. That's weird isn't it? What it's weird is that you got glib-config in glib-2.10.1. glib-config is only in old versions, recent versions use pkg-config files. regards, -- David Gómez Jabber ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] ./configure not finding glib?
On Friday 24 March 2006 01:00, Martin Nordholts wrote: Oops, forgot to tell. I try to compile the latest tarball: GIMP 2.3.7. Yep, I first and foremost looked for precompiled libs in Mandrivas packet manager, but I didn't find some of them, though lots of libs are directly installed from there. Note that you can build the Source RPMs from Mandriva Cooker by building them with the rpm --rebuild command. You can find a list of mirrors here: http://qa.mandriva.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/CookerMirrors Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ 95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the bottom 5%. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
