Re: [Gimp-developer] LAB in Info Window
On Fri, 2010-10-22 at 11:15 +1100, Graeme Gill wrote: Retrieving the display profiles automatically would be nice though, and there is code around to do this on various platforms Code for retrieving the display color profile from the operating system is already in place in GIMP for X11 and Mac OS. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Dear GIMP Developers, I have been using GIMP for about 10 years, I really liked this program, the menu in the toolbox and the way it was. Similarly lots of GIMP users that lets you know that the menu in the toolbox is missing. I don't understand the point of removing this menu without leaving user option to make is available again - if there are people that don't like this menu they should simply make it invisible. Why do you enforce users with your vision on what is better for them, with no other option (some communists or other *ists involved?). I can see that there is a proposition on the GIMP GUI brainstorm site to create some kind of menu in the toolbox (Monday, 26 July 2010, File toolbox menu), so maybe this is a good signal that the menu in the toolbox indeed was useful. There are also ideas on creating elephant large icon menus, so what is wrong with the simple and functional text menu? If you like to know why I did like the menu take a look at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=623472 and please reconsider you decision, at least leaving the choice for user by a radio button. Please note that there are lots of good changes in new GIMP releases that I really like (ie. selection method), I just don't like destroying the menu functionality, useful for me and lots of people, that seems to show back again in the GUI Brainstorming anyway. Best regards, Tomek Cedro ps/2: If you want to know another program that can have multiple menus in _one_ window take a look at Blender3D. -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Hello, I have replied to your bug comment before seeing this email - sorry :P I suggested a solution to your use case there in my comment (please read it first), and I'll add some more detail here: You say that we Enforce the UI changes on the users, and as a matter of fact you are right. BUT, think on the other side: If every program would have an option to get back it's old UI, it will have 3 problems: 1. Users will keep using the old UI they are used to, and they will possibly miss the new features of the new UI that make it better. This will make UI development a waste of time since people will also teach new users to use the old UI... 2. It requires lots of work to keep several UI options available - if we do this for every UI change, it will result in many code that will just be there for compatiability without doing anything more useful. 3. You have to draw the line sometimes. Every program does UI changes as it evolves, as a part of it's vision. Even blender which you mentioned made a massive change between 2.4 and 2.5, and no, they have no option to use the old UI again. Each program has a UI designed for it's special case, so saying Blender has it does not matter since blender is used for a completly different purpose - If you'll show something like this in some 2D app which matches GIMP's product vision (see http://gui.gimp.org/) it may be more relevant. I'm very glad to see the discussion here since we are recieving feedback in the right place - and we need user feedback. But unless you show some clear case, WHICH IS SUITING THE PRODUCT VISION, where the new UI is a problem, I don't see any reason to change back. I'm more than open to see specific cases (which I did not already answer in the bug report) in which the new UI is a problem. If you will find some critical cases in which the new UI is worse than the old - we will consider undoing the change :) But please do note the word critical which I used - just saying I'm used to the old way/it's more comfortable in case XXX (where XXX is a very rare case) is not enough. As far as it may sounds anoying, the program will not be tailor-made to match your useage of it - it will made to be useful to the biggest amount of target users it can, even if it leave some few unfortunate users in a less comfortable situation. For example, I find the new UI very comfortable and more intuitive - and it just shows that not all users agree. So, please find some critical user-case in which the new UI is problomatic, or contribute a patch that allows choosing between the two UI's. If such a patch will be present, and if it is elegant enough, there are higher chances of it being implemented. Happy GIMPing :) ~LightningIsMyName ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Hello and thank you for kind reply, On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:48 AM, LightningIsMyName lightningismyn...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I have replied to your bug comment before seeing this email - sorry :P No problem, already replied :-) I suggested a solution to your use case there in my comment (please read it first), and I'll add some more detail here: As I have written in the bug report: 1. There is no need to remove this functionality (or any other) - the simplest solution is to connect visibility of that menu with the checkbox in the preferences menu / toolbox section. If anyone wants to see this menu, they check the option. Option unchecked will hide menu and make a free space for other tabbed tools pallettes. No problem, both sides are totally happy :-) 2. The toolbar is smaller and more comfortable and does not hide window I am working on (ie. when taking a screenshot). 3. It was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of windows - I had some worksets placed around different workspaces. This is critical functionality for me. 4. It was great for creating new GIMP sub-windows on separate desktops for each application. 5. Right now I can put/drag the toolbar on a desktop different than where window resides, but the other toolboxes are following the toolbar. 6. When I close last window, so called no-window, GIMP quits - what if I want to have only this toolbar ready to create new picture window (ie. from a screenshot). If you care about space, no need to have additional window. 7. I am really used to have this toolbar open on a free workspace and work on another workspace full of other windows. 8. I cannot execute actions from a toolbar, that was possible when menu was in there (screenshot, scan, open from clipboard etc). I can see that there are ideas in the GIMP GUI Brainstorm to bring some buttons back. So why not to leave whole menu alone? This is critical functionality for me. 9. Closing the toolbar asks to close all windows - so what it the point of having additional main-no-window? (again what gain of space is having huge window on the screen, when we talk about 10px height menu) You say that we Enforce the UI changes on the users, (..) With removing some stuff leaving no option for user and listen to no feedback, unfortunately you are. If every program would have an option to get back it's old UI, I'm not talking about having the old UI for the eternity, but to give user an option, not to destroy what is nice and useful. I really like new features introduced in GIMP 2.6 and I am happy that this great program is still evolving. But making decisions in favor of users and enforcing them rudely with no alternative, just as Martin did in our conversation, is far from meaning of open to me. Its like you have to enter your car by the roof from now on, because this is better for you and it looks better. I hope he did not represent all of the GIMP Developer Community, or I will enforce you all to eat only carrots because this is better for you! ;-) 2. It requires lots of work to keep several UI options available - if we do this for every UI change, it will result in many code that will just be there for compatiability without doing anything more useful. The functionality was already there, so in fact no additional work was required, except the changes that were supposed to be introduced. Right now the menu is also there, nicely redesigned, put into another window. There should be no trouble to bring it back to the toolbox, even patches are available on the gimp-classic website - this project clearly shows that this menu was useful for some people and it's neither about making a fork nor using outdated version, and enforcing that changes maybe could have been done as a fork, or simply an option, not takeover. I'm very glad to see the discussion here since we are recieving feedback in the right place - and we need user feedback. But unless you show some clear case, WHICH IS SUITING THE PRODUCT VISION, where the new UI is a problem, I don't see any reason to change back. I hope the example cases above are simple and gives good overview on how the menu was used. They mainly come from habits of having menu in the toolbox (and so trating it as main windows), but also good use of multidesktop environment that is not a case for current users. I am sure other people has their own use of this menu. Saying that no other program does it is no argument, even though I showed simple example of Blender that does it (also for some time it was changing buttons position, that was horrible, at least key shortcuts were spared, but gimp menu also had been redesigned for clarity what I can understand). The all-in-toolbox window was not that bad, although for Photoshop users might been a bit strange at first sight, so they could switch back to their beloved photoshop or get used to the GIMP style, however if anyone prefers to have this no-window although it serves no purpose,
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On Sun, 2010-10-24 at 02:06 +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: [...] 1. There is no need to remove this functionality (or any other) - the simplest solution is to connect visibility of that menu with the checkbox in the preferences menu / toolbox section. And people will turn it off by mistake, or forget they turned it on, and write tutorials people can't follow, or get stuck... etc etc. I admit I can see a lot of use in a context (pop-up) menu in the drop area of the toolbox, maybe with a button for it, as in the main image window - it'd have a list of active windows to choose from, and maybe the File menu. [...] 3. It was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of windows - I had some worksets placed around different workspaces. This is critical functionality for me. The trend seems to be towards single-window with tabs, although long-term I for one would rather see multiple windows with tabs. 6. When I close last window, so called no-window, GIMP quits - what if I want to have only this toolbar ready to create new picture window (ie. from a screenshot). If you care about space, no need to have additional window. Or, have only the window; if you press tab, the toolbox goes away. The toolbox (it's not actually a toolbar) is just one of many gimp palettes... There's something to be said for running multiple instances of gimp: for one thing you get more control on where files are loaded and saved on a per-project basis. Best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/23/10, Tomek CEDRO wrote: I don't understand the point of removing this menu without leaving user option to make is available again - if there are people that don't like this menu they should simply make it invisible. Why do you enforce users with your vision on what is better for them, with no other option (some communists or other *ists involved?). Enforcing vision is what software development is all about :) You've been using GIMP for ten years after all, you were supposed to know that :) As for *ists, you got it exactly right: usabilists were involved. In the new UI there is no way the toolbox menu can be useful. Really. It's a dinosaur and it was about time for some meteorite to save human embarassment of dealing with prehistoric creatures -- all claws, fangs, pointy tales and whatnot. Please accept this change. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/24/10, Tomek CEDRO wrote: 1. There is no need to remove this functionality (or any other) - the simplest solution is to connect visibility of that menu with the checkbox in the preferences menu / toolbox section. If anyone wants to see this menu, they check the option. Option unchecked will hide menu and make a free space for other tabbed tools pallettes. No problem, both sides are totally happy :-) There are more sides than you think. And the sides you mention don't exactly do what you expect of them. 2. The toolbar is smaller and more comfortable and does not hide window I am working on (ie. when taking a screenshot). Smaller than what? With GIMP from Git master I can make toolbox one column wide, whereas toolbox menu enforces (lovely word, I'm gonna use it from now on) width of toolbox of at least three columns, and that already means not seeing Help menu item. That alone is a great reason to kill the toolbox menu, and there are more reasons to do it. 3. It was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of windows - I had some worksets placed around different workspaces. This is critical functionality for me. There's a lot of I in your mail, but please understand that judgments of one person are not enough. Changes always mean that somebody is going to be pissed off. Providing backwards compatibility for behavior in an application means that this application becomes a horrible mess, as a rule with no exceptions. Most of your points are raised because the toolbox menu was your kind of central point of access to features. This is no longer true in the new design and (arguably) cannot stay true. Until optional single-window mode is finished (2.8, hopefully), my recommendation to you would be to hold your judgments. What you are seeing in 2.6 is an in-between state, a milestone. In other words, things are changing. You might actually like the final result. Be patient. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
