Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I guess
it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case
they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
is OK?).

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears), and I
don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your
actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only,
but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Niccolo,
>
> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
> drawing conclusions.
>
> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
> tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
> my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
> containing expletives.
>
> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>
> Alexandre
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> TLDR:
>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
>> developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
>> are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
>> the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>
>> FULL:
>>
>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had
>> a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>> from the Reddit thread at
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>
>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps
>> getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
>> beast.
>>
>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>
>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>
>> Another message:
>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>
>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh,
>> you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we"
>> in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important
>> here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind
>> of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for
>> people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's
>> not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad
>> not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from
>> someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer
>> to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banne

Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know if
people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in court.
I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who represents the
whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep saying
"we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you misrepresent
yourself as a developer of GIMP). This feedback is shared with other
members of the community--which haven't asked to be identified.

Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not,
don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much
of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
you.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:
>
>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>
>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>> guess it's you against the world.
>>
>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
>> is OK?).
>>
>
> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists
> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
> emails sent to those list.
>
>
>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>
>
> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other
> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint
> the relevant threads.
>
> Exhibit A:
>
> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came
> off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell
> you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
> with him just a few days earlier.
>
> This is this very thread:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>
> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in
> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that
> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset
> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said
> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts...
> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>
> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
> ropes.
>
> And Exhibit B:
>
> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
> Even if you win, you lose...
>
> This is this very thread:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>
> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3
> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>
> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very
> same thread --
> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
> versions.
>
> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>
> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a
> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next
> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack,
> save for our friend /u/Unchayned 
> here."
>
> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>
> Alex
>
>
>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your
>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only,
>> but for other people as well.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>
>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>>> conversation w

[Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had a
couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. While
it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps
getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

>>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came
off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell
you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:
>>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh,
you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we"
in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important
here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind
of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for
people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's
not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad
not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from
someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer
to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just
because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a
horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to
relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from
attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude
into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either
does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo.
-- 
Niccolo.
___
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Nope.

Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore
not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was
replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
better (which I had an extremely open mind about).

The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.

As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.

I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake. I just
want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, and if
the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP saying
they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not worth
explaining things.

I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
it".

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R  wrote:

> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
> thread:
>
> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just
> justifying me complaining.
>
> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
> makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
> become a GIMP dev?
> Jesus..."
>
> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts of
> wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
> involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>
> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>
> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>
> Just an outsider's perspective.
> -C
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
> gimp-developer-list  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:
>>
>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know
>> if
>> > people can read it.
>> >
>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>> >
>>
>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>>
>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>>
>>
>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that
>> they
>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's
>> not,
>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as
>> much
>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
>> > you.
>> >
>>
>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>>
>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>>
>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and personal attacks."
>>
>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>>
>> Good day to you.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> > alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>> >>> guess it's you against the world.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
>> reply--if they
>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
>> behavior
>> >>> is OK?).
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
>> lists
>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>> >> emails sent to those list.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't
>> as
>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
>> other
>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I ca

Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
for, is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct

Ah, I see how you've been able to get away with it.

Fair enough.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 15:01 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:
>
>> Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know
>> if people can read it.
>>
>> Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>> court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>> represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
>> saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>> misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>>
>
> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>
> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>
>
>> Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
>> considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
>> know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
>> appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not,
>> don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much
>> of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
>> you.
>>
>
> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>
> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>
> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and personal attacks."
>
> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>
> Good day to you.
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
 misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
 doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

 It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
 guess it's you against the world.

 Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
 case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
 approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
 is OK?).

>>>
>>> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
>>> lists you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>>> emails sent to those list.
>>>
>>>
 I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
 much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),

>>>
>>> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
>>> other problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>>> pinpoint the relevant threads.
>>>
>>> Exhibit A:
>>>
>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>
>>> This is this very thread:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>>
>>> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use
>>> in GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say
>>> that lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>>> "mindset of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing
>>> I said in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>>> "Facts... Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>>
>>> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
>>> ropes.
>>>
>>> And Exhibit B:
>>>
>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
>>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>
>>> This is this very thread:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>>
>>> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking
>>> 3 minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
>>> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
>>> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>>
>>> "ment

Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me are
dicks, too.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R  wrote:

>
>> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
>> therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
>> was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
>> better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
>>
>
> You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
> wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
> wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
> like way upset. :)
>
>
>> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
>>
>
> That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard
> to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to
> continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever.
>
>
>> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
>> and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
>>
>
> You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
> the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
> their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
> users asked for was done).
>
> Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
> in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
> software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
> will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
> GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
> active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
> and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
> that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
> control your own temper in these threads.
>
>
>
>> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.
>>
>
> You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
> to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.
>
>
>> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies,
>> and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP
>> saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not
>> worth explaining things.
>>
>
> You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
> snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.
>
>
>> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
>> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
>> it".
>>
>
> Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not
> on this mailing list.
>
> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
>>
>
> Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
> just GIMP culture, that's life in general.
>
> -C
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R  wrote:
>>
>>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
>>> thread:
>>>
>>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just
>>> justifying me complaining.
>>>
>>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
>>> makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
>>> become a GIMP dev?
>>> Jesus..."
>>>
>>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts
>>> of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
>>> involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>>>
>>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>>>
>>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>>>
>>> Just an outsider's perspective.
>>> -C
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
>>> gimp-developer-list  wrote:
>>>
 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi 
 wrote:

 > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
 know if
 > people can read it.
 >
 > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
 > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
 > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
 > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
 > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
 >

 I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately --
 you
 have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call
 me
 a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

 If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
 help
 your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.


 > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of th

Re: [Gimp-developer] Three cheers for GIMP! (was Re: ...attacks on GIMP critics around the Web)

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

GIMP is maintained by a single guy with another handful of developers.

It definitely is a fab piece of software.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 17:06 Chris Moller  wrote:

> I haven't a clue if the GIMP devs are paid for doing it or if it's just
> something they do but, regardless, it's a fabulous piece of software that
> merits thanks, not b1tching.  If you don't like it, downgrade to photoshop.
>
-- 
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Fine with me.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:43 PM Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:35 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:
>
>> Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my
>> mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive
>> attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.
>>
>> You ended your reply with "you were a dick",
>>
>
> 1. He didn't end his reply with that. The word was in the middle of his
> email.
>
> 2. He said "it was a dick move", he didn't call you one.
>
> If you continue this well established pattern of knowingly misrepresenting
> what people tell you, I'm afraid we will have to force-end this
> conversation.
>
> Alex
>
> I said that I have 3 more. It's 4 or us so far, then.
>>
> --
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

What falsehoods have I been spreading?

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:39 PM C R  wrote:

> I said spreading falsehoods about GIMP was a "dick move", and it is.
> I ended my last reply with "look in the mirror" as in, look how you're
> treating people in the GIMP community. Is that how you want to be treated?
> No? Then stop it. :)
>
-- 
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my
mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive
attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.

You ended your reply with "you were a dick", I said that I have 3 more.
It's 4 or us so far, then.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:29 PM C R  wrote:

> And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else
> that's the problem.
>
> If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror.
> lol
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:
>
>> Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me
>> are dicks, too.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R  wrote:
>>
>>>
 Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
 therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
 was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
 better (which I had an extremely open mind about).

>>>
>>> You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
>>> wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
>>> wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
>>> like way upset. :)
>>>
>>>
 The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.

>>>
>>> That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it
>>> hard to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back
>>> later to continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But
>>> whatever.
>>>
>>>
 As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks
 employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.

>>>
>>> You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
>>> the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
>>> their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
>>> users asked for was done).
>>>
>>> Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
>>> in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
>>> software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
>>> will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
>>> GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
>>> active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
>>> and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
>>> that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
>>> control your own temper in these threads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
 I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.

>>>
>>> You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
>>> to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.
>>>
>>>
 I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he
 implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of
 GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and
 not worth explaining things.

>>>
>>> You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
>>> snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.
>>>
>>>
 I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
 attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
 it".

>>>
>>> Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and
>>> not on this mailing list.
>>>
>>> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.

>>>
>>> Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
>>> just GIMP culture, that's life in general.
>>>
>>> -C
>>>
>>>

 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R  wrote:

> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
> thread:
>
> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was
> just justifying me complaining.
>
> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code
> that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
> become a GIMP dev?
> Jesus..."
>
> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all
> sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect
> everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>
> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>
> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>
> Just an outsider's perspective.
> -C
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
> gimp-developer-list  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
>> know if
>> > people can read 

Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

I already replied (I think you forgot to copy others), but here is that I
said:

> Let's start with this: "by not setting dates to releases we
tell users to "f*** off"
> Did you say that? Did you edit it away after the fact?
> Don't feign innocence, you're not convincing anyone.

I've already talked about that here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9hbwrd
("Expletives
were about the impression of GIMP devs, instead of "who cares about users",
it was "who cares about users, fuck them", or something similar, and I've
edited right away because I realized it was too harsh (although again it
wasn't about the devs).")

Alexandre knows about the "fuck" part just because he gets automatic
notifications, I edited it right while I was proofreading what I had just
posted.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:55 PM C R  wrote:

>
>
>> What falsehoods have I been spreading?
>>
>
> Because copy/pasting your own quotes to you from Reddit, which are still
> there, is a good use of anyone's time.
>
> Let's start with this: "by not setting dates to releases we
> tell users to "f*** off"
>
> Did you say that? Did you edit it away after the fact?
> Don't feign innocence, you're not convincing anyone.
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:39 PM C R  wrote:
>>
> I said spreading falsehoods about GIMP was a "dick move", and it is.
>>> I ended my last reply with "look in the mirror" as in, look how you're
>>> treating people in the GIMP community. Is that how you want to be treated?
>>> No? Then stop it. :)
>>>
>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole thing
exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out loud.

How sad is this culture you've created.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:

> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
>
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>
> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
> our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
> users.
>
> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>
> Just my thoughts.
> -C
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:
>
>> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
>>
>> >
>> > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
>> > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
>> group,
>> > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
>> post,
>> > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
>> > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
>> > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields
>> and
>> > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount
>> of
>> > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
>> beyond
>> > an accepted threshold/limit.
>> >
>>
>> Hi Trevor,
>>
>> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
>> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
>> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.
>>
>> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
>> complicated
>> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
>> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
>> moderation.
>>
>> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
>> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
>> outbursts like this one.
>>
>> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
>> consider superior communication channels.
>>
>> Alex
>>
> ___
>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
>> List membership:
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>
> --
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R  wrote:

> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>
> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
> -C
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi 
>> ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
>> thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
>> loud.
>>
>> How sad is this culture you've created.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:
>>
>>> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
>>> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
>>> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
>>> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
>>> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
>>> deal with it all the time.
>>>
>>> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
>>> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
>>> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
>>> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
>>> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
>>> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>>>
>>> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
>>> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
>>> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
>>> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
>>> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
>>> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>>>
>>> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
>>> our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
>>> users.
>>>
>>> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>> -C
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
>>> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:
>>>
 пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:

 >
 > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
 > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
 group,
 > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
 post,
 > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
 > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
 IMPORTANTLY
 > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory
 fields and
 > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
 amount of
 > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
 beyond
 > an accepted threshold/limit.
 >

 Hi Trevor,

 I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
 manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people
 to
 contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

 Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
 complicated
 while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
 pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
 moderation.

 So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and
 takes
 just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of
 rare
 outbursts like this one.

 Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
 consider superior communication channels.

 Alex

>>> ___
 gimp-developer-list mailing list
 List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
 List membership:
 https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
 List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

You've been wonderful.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 3:18 PM Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 2:47 PM C R  wrote:
>
>> Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.
>>
>> You'll pull through though. I believe in you!
>> I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.
>>
>
> I'm afraid I've been giving a bad example how to deal with abusive users.
> Let's not repeat my mistakes.
>
> Alex
>
>> --
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

I know, I know. Just saying. It would also have been funnier without the
"trauma" part, ex. "I'm glad you found a support group.".

Alright, see you. Bye.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:47 PM C R  wrote:

> Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.
>
> You'll pull through though. I believe in you!
> I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.
>
> (thread muted)
>
> -C
>
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:42 Niccolo Brogi 
>> Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R  wrote:
>>
>>> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>>>
>>> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
>>> -C
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi >>
 ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
 thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
 loud.

 How sad is this culture you've created.

 On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:

> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
>
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>
> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on
> all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for
> our users.
>
> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>
> Just my thoughts.
> -C
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via
> gimp-developer-list 
>> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
>>
>> >
>> > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
>> > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an
>> email group,
>> > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and
>> each post,
>> > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
>> > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
>> IMPORTANTLY
>> > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory
>> fields and
>> > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
>> amount of
>> > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
>> beyond
>> > an accepted threshold/limit.
>> >
>>
>> Hi Trevor,
>>
>> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
>> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for
>> people to
>> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even
>> harder.
>>
>> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
>> complicated
>> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
>> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved
>> with
>> moderation.
>>
>> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and
>> takes
>> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of
>> rare
>> outbursts like this one.
>>
>> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
>> consider superior communication channels.
>>
>> Alex
>>
> ___
>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
>> List membership:
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>
> --
 Niccolo.

>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

I think this sums up my (and many other people's) sentiment perfectly:

> To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either
has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
well known commercial product or shut up.

This seems to be the culture of he GIMP project--despite a clear
unwillingness to admit that.

Personally, I felt like telling you that that is wrong, because GIMP is
such an amazing piece of software that it would deserve better--and I did.
Many people won't do that, so don't think a lot of people don't share my
sentiment.

I will acknowledge that what we've been talking about is not only how
Alexandre sees fit to treat both newbies and critics, but how the whole
GIMP team does. That's fine with me. Hopefully this will not drive too many
people--including those who would contribute greatly like Simone did--away
from the project.

This discussion will not change anything, so you guys take this feedback as
you see fit, over and out.

 Have a good one, ciao.

Niccolo

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:19 PM Simone Karin Lehmann 
wrote:

> hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing
> list and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.
>
> The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer
> to another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply says
>
> "No GTK 3..?“
>
> and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He
> than wrote
>
> "Ah, I see.
> Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“
>
> With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I
> really can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an
> inappropriate way.
>
> After Alex joins in with his remark that…
>
> "We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“
>
> Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his
> opinion, he thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying "we
> don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this
> sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong, though.
>
> This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after
> quoting only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a
> totally new topic Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to
> his quote, only to force him to justify his opinion and laying the ground
> for further hitting on Niccolo.
>
> Well, and so it came …
>
> To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
> the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
> where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
> know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either
> has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
> well known commercial product or shut up.
>
> And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...
>
> Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I
> couldn’t stand it not to write it.
>
> BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site
> gimp.lisanet.de offline.
>
> Simone Karin
>
>
>
> Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list <
> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org>:
>
> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>
> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
> -C
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi 
> ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
> thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
> loud.
>
> How sad is this culture you've created.
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:
>
> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
>
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> best