Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
David (Tuesday, 16. November 2010) Some of it can be done by stylesheet - for example perhaps, the empty space around figures. But I suspect in practice a lot of what I'd like to see means reducing image size on screen, and repositioning / floating some (but only some) images so that the text flows round - in short getting the text near the image. Making (some) images float is easy. I'm going to commit the changes below (see attachment) which enable floating for inlinemediaobjects and mediaobjects without caption. All you have to do is to add the attribute 'condition=float' to the respective elements. Bye, Ulf -- Nichts macht deutlicher, dass die Religion von Menschen erschaffen wurde, als das kranke Hirn, das sich die Hölle ausdachte, ... -- Christopher Hitchens, Der Herr ist kein Hirte float-images.diff.bz2 Description: application/bzip signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
Roman Joost (Tuesday, 16. November 2010) Just keep in mind with those changes, that the GIMP Help browser uses almost the same stylesheets. Perhaps it is not the desirable goal to have a compact layout for the user who downloaded the manual or uses the help browser to browse the manual. As long as we experiment on alternate stylesheets there should be no problem, the GIMP help browser doesn't use them. If we eventually decide to switch to a more compact layout, we would do this because we (all) think it's an improvement (for the users). After all, without feedback we just can hope that users like what we like... Ulf -- Die guten Christen sind am gefährlichsten - man verwechselt sie mit dem Christentum. -- Karlheinz Deschner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
Thanks Ulf, Roman (1) Compact layout. This is mostly a matter of the chosen style(sheet): We (you?) could create an alternate stylesheet , e.g. compact.css Some of it can be done by stylesheet - for example perhaps, the empty space around figures. But I suspect in practice a lot of what I'd like to see means reducing image size on screen, and repositioning / floating some (but only some) images so that the text flows round - in short getting the text near the image. That would mean rewriting the docbook source - so it may be better to concentrate on the other suggestions first? To that end, I'll try to get the thing set up on my Ubuntu machine; may ask privately for some help ;) Re: (2) Compact tocs (changing the controlling xslt parameters) We currently display I.1.1.1, although it appears as I 1. 1. 1.1 The most conservative change would be to remove just the last '1.1' - this alone would save many screenfuls - any takers for that? D ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
David (Tuesday, 09. November 2010) So shouldn't we ask someone who had never worked with GIMP or had never tried to read the manual? ;-) That *is* me, isn't it? (a new user perspective) Are you kidding?! ;-) Actually I was referring to the page content on eg the 'basic concepts' page, where the writing and the pictures are closer together in my version than in the existing version - allows you to see more on one screen (Oops, I didn't check the links...) Yes, your Basic Concepts page looks fine. :-) So we have several proposed improvements, and if I see it correctly they are more or less independent of each other: (1) Compact layout. This is mostly a matter of the chosen style(sheet): We (you?) could create an alternate stylesheet , e.g. compact.css (starting with a copy of gimp-help-screen.css) and change text layout etc. according to your suggestions. (And we can make it the default stylesheet at any time.) BTW, the HTML pages read gimp-help-custom.css if this stylesheet exists (by default it does not), so that's a good place to apply and test your changes in the real world. (1.1) Floating images. It seems that too ;-) many people like them, so we should provide a way to enable floating images. Of course it is possible to make *all* images (exception: icons) float, but I'd prefer to add a modified DocBook-XSL template which passes some attribute to HTML (e.g. inlinemediaobject condition=float), where we can select it with CSS. Then we can control which images should float (I think the most figures - especially large figures - should not). I can add the appropriate changes for inlinemediaobjects - graphics without title or caption. If needed we can do the same for mediaobjects - graphics without title but with optional caption - and figures - graphics with title and optional caption. Ok? (Alternative approach: create an alternate stylesheet.) It would be, although even with 2 levels it would still miss basic concepts, layers, selections. But that would be a vast improvement in my view :). And if people could not find what they wanted from that, we'd know the structure was wrong... (2) Compact tocs (without changes). This is simple, just change the controlling xslt parameters. (If we really do this, we should try to generate a deep toc as appendix or so.) (3) Rename some chapters. Just list your suggested changes, and unless there are any objections/problems we will apply them. (4) Changed Basic Concepts. Hmm, looks good to me - any comments? (5) Rearrange (resort, merge, etc.) chapters (concepts and usage). Looks good too. IMO we should try to implement and test this in a new branch and see if we like it. Bye, Ulf -- Allein bin ich manchmal einsam; mit anderen oft; in Gesellschaft fast immer. Was mich mehr als alles krank macht, sind die unheilbar Gesunden. -- Karlheinz Deschner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
Hi Ulf, On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 08:51:03PM +0100, Ulf-D. Ehlert wrote: (1) Compact layout. This is mostly a matter of the chosen style(sheet): We (you?) could create an alternate stylesheet , e.g. compact.css (starting with a copy of gimp-help-screen.css) and change text layout etc. according to your suggestions. (And we can make it the default stylesheet at any time.) BTW, the HTML pages read gimp-help-custom.css if this stylesheet exists (by default it does not), so that's a good place to apply and test your changes in the real world. Just keep in mind with those changes, that the GIMP Help browser uses almost the same stylesheets. Perhaps it is not the desirable goal to have a compact layout for the user who downloaded the manual or uses the help browser to browse the manual. Cheers, -- Roman Joost www: http://www.romanofski.de email: romanof...@gimp.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
@David: BTW, I think you did never mention: are you working on cloned copy of the git repository, i.e. on the source files? I do have a cloned copy, and have submitted one minor change from it. However the webpages at http://drking.webstarts.com/index.html are a quick mock-up using (rather imperfect) html/css. To do this from the docbook source would mean moving to my Ubuntu machine and, in the absence of the instructions which I believe were once on the wiki, I'd expect to spend hours getting the thing to generate html from docbook, and hours learning which docbook tags are useful, and hours playing with gimp-doc style sheets. In other words the technology is in the way. The main problem I'm trying to solve can be illustrated thus: The docs describe how to draw a straight line, *at least twice*. The second author must have been unaware that it had already been done. Now, if an author is unable to find what is in the contents, there is surely little hope for a user. That's a problem, isn't it? ;) My contention is that by restructuring the contents we could make the docs much easier to use. So I've mocked that up for your comments. Because it was easy, I've used a more visually compact page layout, which I prefer - that's a secondary (independent) issue. If there is interest in restructuring the contents, I'd try to find the time to set things up. If not, I'd be better offering just minor changes from hand-altered docbook source, for someone else to test / commit. David ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
@Ulf Selections as sub-section of Painting is not too absurd IMHO. Remember that you can select and copy/cut to create a new brush (see 7.9.2. Creating a brush quickly). Sorry - should have replied to this. If I'm right that the contents page is too long, then a new user needs to be able to find Selections from a top level section heading. Painting suggests brushes, fill tools, etc to me. I wouldn't immediately look there for help on selecting. I might possibly look under Toolbox I suppose, having seen some of the selection tools, although that is on the 8th screen of the current contents so I might miss it. The killer point is that the contents are for someone who doesn't currently know that you can select and copy/cut to create a new brush. Actually I didn't ;). It's just my view of course... D ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
Hi Ulf for Layers (albeit currently called 'Combining Images'), for Selections (called 'Painting with GIMP'), No, there's no Selections section called Painting with GIMP: II.7.1+2 (Selection and Creating and Using Selections) are subsections of II.7 (Painting with GIMP). OK - but what I really meant was that Selections are not really a sub-section of Painting - for example you can cut and paste a selection, which is not painting. It might be better to have Selections as a separate section... BTW, maybe we should merge 7.1 + 7.2... As a separate section? :) for Undo (actually called 'Undoing' ;) ) Is 'Undoing' wrong? No, indeed - my smile was because it seems to be the only one which is correctly titled There doesn't seem to be a section with a fuller description for Channels - and my suggestion would be that there *ought* to be - Hmm, this would be logical. and that would be the best place to put the current Glossary content. Yes, but then (IMHO) this text had to be expanded, e.g. by stealing some stuff from the Channels Dialog chapter, adding examples and figures, etc. And if/when we change it, we should also handle https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=569487 OK I'm not sure whether that could be done now, or whether it should be split out later. ... I think we should do it later. OK D ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
On Mon, 2010-09-06 at 23:48 +0100, David wrote: It's there already, on the offical GIMP for Windows site, right next to the latest GIMP for Windows installer, linked prominentely from www.gimp.org: http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html What change exactly are you suggesting? If I want GIMP I go to http://www.gimp.org/downloads/ The thing that is prominent there is **Download GIMP 2.6.10 – Installer for Windows XP SP2 or later** That is what I click on. Obvious and clear. Ah, OK. That page is dependent on the operating system you are visiting it with. So I have no idea what it looks like for Windows users. If I want to see the Windows downloads, then I go to http://www.gimp.org/windows/ and follow the link there which leads to me the page that I showed you. You are at the wrong mailing-list though. If you want to suggest changes to www.gimp.org then you should suggest this on the gimp-web list. Sven ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
David skreiv: Hi Bill On 05/09/2010 11:17, Hugh Loebner wrote: But beyond that, it's also true that the manual *can* be something that people will be able to read in order to learn how the program works, rather than just something to consult when there is a problem. The ideal is to make it both. I did a lot of work on Gimp Help about five years ago, and was definitely aiming to make it something that people could read. It's certainly readable - there's *loads* of good information :). My main concern is that it needs organising (and some editing). It feels as if it has grown and grown, with different people adding different bits, but without an overall structure? I'm not suggesting that it's merely a problem solver - clearly people who come to the program for the first time have to read the manual to learn how the program works - but you can bet on it that they'll stop reading as soon as they can. I think some users think When all other fails, read the manual. Others will read it to learn something and others for fun. In other words: we are writing for all kinds of people. And the GIMP manual is a well written manual. No doubt. Perhaps the best manual in the Free software group? But as you suggested somewhere, written by different writers at different times and therefore sometimes some inconsequential sentences and explanations. So, go on David with your weeding. Kolbjoern ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
Ulf-D. Ehlert skreiv: Kolbjørn Stuestøl (Wednesday, 01. September 2010) Ulf-D. Ehlert skreiv: David (Monday, 30. August 2010) [...] Images would be better right or left aligned, definitely not inline as at present. I don't see the problem (but that doesn't mean anything...). Can you provide some examples (e.g. GIMP vs. $OTHER_PROG manual)? Just as in (many) books. The images are mostly placed to the left or right side with the text surrounding it. Often more readable that the way it is set up now. Just checked a few books: 4 x images centered, 1 x left aligned, but no floating images (where text surrounds the images). I was a bit fuzzy. What I meant was many books put the (smaller) images to the right or to the left of the printed side with text to the left or to the right side and perhaps over and/or beneath the picture. Not surrounding the image (at all sides) as I wrote. Sorry. So your observation is correct I think. Well, perhaps a matter pf taste? And also a matter of image size? Yes! But --- rewriting the stylesheets are time consuming and I am not sure it is desirable at the moment. In Windows installing programs are much simpler than in Linux. There are several nice GUI programs for package management, so I doubt that your statement is (still?) correct. ;-) Mostly you start an installer and that's it. The average Windows user normally do not know how to install packages like in Linux. So the problem seems to be that we don't (can't?) provide Windows packages. BTW, we also don't provide Linux packages - the various Linux distributions do. Ulf (late, as usual) As David sugested: putting (a link to) the existing Win help installer on the GIMP website will be a good solution? The main question from many users are: Where to find the downloads I needs? The logical place is at gimp.org. Kolbjoern ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
Another specific issue: == 13.2. Creating a Basic Shape 1.Drawing shapes is not the main purpose for using GIMP. However, you may create shapes by either painting them using the technique described in Figure 7.35, “A new image” or... == I suggest this would be better as: == 13.2. Creating a Basic Shape 1.Drawing shapes is not the main purpose for using GIMP. However, you may create shapes by either by drawing straight lines (Section 13.1) or... == My reasons this text would be better: 1. it's shorter 2. it says what the technique is, so you don't need to click away from the page 3. Figure 7.35 does not itself describe a technique (wrong place to link to) + I hope you get the idea I'm trying to come up with positive ways to refine the manual - but I'm not yet sure if I'm getting through to the right people... Am I likely to make a difference, or should I quietly fade away? ;) D ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
Why not link to Inkscape, an open source drawing program? On Sep 5, 2010 4:34 AM, David gimp-d...@drking.co.uk wrote: Another specific issue: == 13.2. Creating a Basic Shape 1.Drawing shapes is not the main purpose for using GIMP. However, you may create shapes by either painting them using the technique described in Figure 7.35, “A new image” or... == I suggest this would be better as: == 13.2. Creating a Basic Shape 1.Drawing shapes is not the main purpose for using GIMP. However, you may create shapes by either by drawing straight lines (Section 13.1) or... == My reasons this text would be better: 1. it's shorter 2. it says what the technique is, so you don't need to click away from the page 3. Figure 7.35 does not itself describe a technique (wrong place to link to) + I hope you get the idea I'm trying to come up with positive ways to refine the manual - but I'm not yet sure if I'm getting through to the right people... Am I likely to make a difference, or should I quietly fade away? ;) D ___ Gimp-docs mailing list gimp-d...@lists.xcf.berke... ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
On 05/09/2010 11:17, Hugh Loebner wrote: Why not link to Inkscape, an open source drawing program? Because this part of the manual is about drawing shapes in GIMP (and only in GIMP). People who read a manual generally do not want to read it. They generally want to be using the application, but cannot figure out how. So the task is to give them the information (and only that information) as quickly/succinctly as possible. More is less. More information than needed makes the manual less useful. Am I preaching to the converted, or is that a heretical view? ;) D ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
On 02/09/2010 20:11, Sven Neumann wrote: You should try to play well with packagers and distributions and make releases frequently so that users can pick up updates easily. It is not our job to educate them how to install the manual from source. And I consider the generated HTML the source. It's not something users should have to deal with. Fully agree with that. And indeed it turns out that the person who made the 2.6.0 installer for Windows has also packaged the help files as a separate installer I found this by googling a few times and discovered: http://www.referpages.com/reference/web/37-web-design/81-gimp.html which points to a sourceforge site. I tried it - it works. So the problem is simply that the damn thing is not on the GIMP web site, so no-one knows about it; considering that lack of local Win help files is a common problem, surely to goodness someone can fix that? D ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
David (Monday, 30. August 2010) In a spirit of trying to help, may I share a few observations about the online documentation that would make my reading of it easier? Feedback is always welcome! :-) 1. There is no link off the manual to the GIMP site. I wanted that. The HTML manual contains more than 500 HTML pages. IMHO using your browser's bookmark feature will probably much easier and faster than searching for a link somewhere in the manual... 2. I'd much prefer a clearer layout of the manual web pages. For example the first page shows just a logo, until I scroll down, What's wrong with the nice logo? ;-) and the contents are spread over multiple screens (impossible to get an overview). Ok, the table of contents *is* a bit confusing. Images would be better right or left aligned, definitely not inline as at present. I don't see the problem (but that doesn't mean anything...). Can you provide some examples (e.g. GIMP vs. $OTHER_PROG manual)? Black text on white is clearer than orange on grey. We changed the style when the layout of the gimp home page changed. But you can switch to the old GIMP-2.2 (gimp22) style (check the View menu of your browser). This works for online and offline version. 3. Section 1.2 needs to tell me *how* to install the context sensitive help (I installed GIMP as recommended, onto Windows, but no context sensitive or local help is installed.) This seems to be a common Windows problem. Linux distributions should install the GIMP manual package (gimp-doc or gimp-help) if the gimp package is selected. Since I'm a Linux-only user, I have no clue about the Windows way of installing packages. I can share further specific points if there is interest Definitely yes. :-) Ulf -- Frage an Schiller: kann das Gesetz der Freund des Schwachen sein, wenn es die Mächtigen machen? -- Karlheinz Deschner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
I've quickly mocked up an alternative contents page, using headings up to 2 deep. It uses just more than one screen on my system. A copy/paste of those contents is: == Preface 1. GIMP User Manual Authors and Contributors I. Getting Started 1. Introduction 2. Fire up the GIMP 3. First Steps with Wilber 4. Getting Unstuck II. How do I Become a GIMP Wizard? 5. Getting Images into GIMP 6. Getting Images out of GIMP 7. Painting with GIMP 8. Combining Images 9. Enhancing Photographs 10. Color Management with GIMP 11. Pimp my GIMP 12. Scripting III. Function Reference 13. Toolbox 14. Dialogs 15. Menus 16. Filters I. Keys and Mouse Reference Glossary Bibliography A. GIMP History B. Reporting Bugs and Requesting Enhancements C. GNU Free Documentation License D. Eeek! There is Missing Help Index = Now, I might be wrong, but it looks illogical to me ;). If it's a tree structure (and it ought to be, surely) then the numbering after: II. How do I Become a GIMP Wizard? should be: 1. Getting Images into GIMP and so on Then: I. Keys and Mouse Reference is an anomaly - it doesn't fit on the tree. A. GIMP History B. Reporting Bugs and Requesting Enhancements C. GNU Free Documentation License D. Eeek! There is Missing Help could/should all be on a separate branch: Appendices, probably placed before Glossary. I guess it's only by removing the clutter that the structure of the thing becomes clear. To be honest, I can't see what information the headings I, II, and III add. For example: 5. Getting Images into GIMP 6. Getting Images out of GIMP is little more than File Open/Save - scarcely GIMP Wizardry :) However, having said that, the important discussion of colour models is actually within 5. - you'd never guess that from the heading, so wouldn't it be better relocated? If it would help anyone to see my (crude) webpage mock-up I can send it privately as a zip - I assume the list will not permit attachments. Goodness, I hope this is helpful and not just a pain ;) David ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
Re: [Gimp-docs] a new user perspective
David skreiv: I've quickly mocked up an alternative contents page, using headings up to 2 deep. It uses just more than one screen on my system. A copy/paste of those contents is: == Preface 1. GIMP User Manual Authors and Contributors I. Getting Started 1. Introduction 2. Fire up the GIMP 3. First Steps with Wilber 4. Getting Unstuck II. How do I Become a GIMP Wizard? 5. Getting Images into GIMP 6. Getting Images out of GIMP 7. Painting with GIMP 8. Combining Images 9. Enhancing Photographs 10. Color Management with GIMP 11. Pimp my GIMP 12. Scripting III. Function Reference 13. Toolbox 14. Dialogs 15. Menus 16. Filters I. Keys and Mouse Reference Glossary Bibliography A. GIMP History B. Reporting Bugs and Requesting Enhancements C. GNU Free Documentation License D. Eeek! There is Missing Help Index = Now, I might be wrong, but it looks illogical to me ;). If it's a tree structure (and it ought to be, surely) then the numbering after: II. How do I Become a GIMP Wizard? should be: 1. Getting Images into GIMP and so on It is obviously not a real tree. More a random list. The numbers referrers to the chapter numbers I think. Then: I. Keys and Mouse Reference is an anomaly - it doesn't fit on the tree. A. GIMP History B. Reporting Bugs and Requesting Enhancements C. GNU Free Documentation License D. Eeek! There is Missing Help could/should all be on a separate branch: Appendices, probably placed before Glossary. Yes. Why not only put the A, B, C, and D into a common Appendices? Perhaps also the 1. GIMP User Manual Authors and Contributors could be moved hereto? The user is more interested in how tos than who made the manual. I do am aware of that it is a common habit to start with the authors etc. I guess it's only by removing the clutter that the structure of the thing becomes clear. To be honest, I can't see what information the headings I, II, and III add. For example: 5. Getting Images into GIMP 6. Getting Images out of GIMP is little more than File Open/Save - scarcely GIMP Wizardry :) Amen However, having said that, the important discussion of colour models is actually within 5. - you'd never guess that from the heading, so wouldn't it be better relocated? Better under10. Color Management with GIMP? If it would help anyone to see my (crude) webpage mock-up I can send it privately as a zip - I assume the list will not permit attachments. Goodness, I hope this is helpful and not just a pain ;) David Some rapid comments late in the evening. Should perhaps had thought it over before sending? I think it is possible to rebuild the index without major difficulties. Not even the GIMP manual is perfect. Kolbjoern ___ Gimp-docs mailing list Gimp-docs@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-docs
