Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Ville Pätsi]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:03:18AM +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:
> >This works nicely for a keyboard workflow: CTRL-SHIFT-N, CTRL-.
> >Fast, no confirmation required and no application state has to be 
> > remembered.
> >An open question is how to make this fast for a mouse only / tablet user.
> Easy enough, a mouse user can drag the foreground or background color
> from the bottom of the Toolbox or from the Colors dockable and drop it
> either on the image window or on the newly created layer in the Layers
> dialog.

Or you can just drag the color to the new layer button in the layers
dock to do it in only one step.

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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 23:50 +0100, yahvuu wrote:

> For the New Layer dialog, i'd prefer:
> 
> c) Always create a transparent layer, without showing a dialog. Then let the
>user fill the new layer if desired (not considering layer size here).

Well, layer size is the problem here. It is rather inconvenient to
resize layers, so it is somewhat important for many work-flows to have a
way to specify the size when the layer is created.
> 
>This works nicely for a keyboard workflow: CTRL-SHIFT-N, CTRL-.
>Fast, no confirmation required and no application state has to be 
> remembered.
>An open question is how to make this fast for a mouse only / tablet user.

Easy enough, a mouse user can drag the foreground or background color
from the bottom of the Toolbox or from the Colors dockable and drop it
either on the image window or on the newly created layer in the Layers
dialog.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[yahvuu]

Jay Smith wrote:
> On 03/10/2010 03:27 PM, yahvuu wrote:
>> Martin Nordholts wrote:
>>> 2010/3/10 yahvuu :
 Each of these dialog options points at a potential interaction problem. If 
 the
 dialog remembers an option, the user also has to remember that option.
 In general, this amounts to additional cognitive burden to keep the mental 
 model
 in sync with the application state.
>>> Hmm I don't understand, how would there be additional cognitive burden
>>> on users if a dialog remembers a setting across invocations?
>> You are right, that was an invalid generalisation. I was thinking of the 
>> 'New Layer' dialog
>> where the 'fill' option tends to get in the way.
>> (If i leave that option to a fixed value -- like a prefs item -- there's no 
>> problem, i can
>> just hit  enter to create the new layer. If i, however, do change this 
>> value, i'd better
>> remember this the next time i create a new layer.)
[..]

> I am not convinced that the 'New Layer' example given presents a
> "better" situation as described.

well, it additionally depends on the task at hand -- which tells that it was 
bad idea
to hold the dialog state responsible for getting in the way. This cannot be 
generalized.

Allow me to rephrase my original point:
Each of said dialog options can potentially get in the way
of smooth workflows and is worth being questioned.


Now for my example where it's indeed the dialog state that is 
counter-productive:
For the New Layer dialog, the crucial question is wether the next layer will
be created with the same fill as the last one. If that assumption holds true
most of the time, then a stateful option is useful, as you described here:

> In the 'New Layer' example given, if I am doing a certain repetitive
> task, it is *highly* likely that I will want the new layer to have the
> same fill every time I do that function.  There is a significant
> "burden" in having to change this setting _every_ time.  (And to make it
> worse, some of these settings are not so easily accessible via keyboard,
> thus wrecking my shoulder from mousing too much.)


If however, say, a mixed stack of 10 transparent layers and 5 colored layers is
to be created, then using the stateful option becomes a burden: The user is 
forced
to read and potentially adjust its value for each new layer.

In this case, it is more efficient to leave to the fill option to 'transparent'
and manually fill the layer later on, if required. Why? Because it can be done
blindly, at least when using the keyboard (see below).


> So, which is better:
> 
> a) Knowing that the program will always force a default value and having
> to change it much of the time (in my case for Canvas Resizing, ALL the
> time).
> 
> b) Knowing that the user is responsible to paying attention to what the
> value says when they get to the dialog and if it is correct for the task
> (which it will then be, once the user has set it, until later changed by
> the user).

Sorry, i cannot give a useful general answer here. Consider e.g. the
Gaussian Blur filter, whose radius setting matches both a) and b).

For the New Layer dialog, i'd prefer:

c) Always create a transparent layer, without showing a dialog. Then let the
   user fill the new layer if desired (not considering layer size here).

   This works nicely for a keyboard workflow: CTRL-SHIFT-N, CTRL-.
   Fast, no confirmation required and no application state has to be remembered.
   An open question is how to make this fast for a mouse only / tablet user.


For your original case of Canvas Resizing, i fully agree that the dialog should
remember the 'resize layers' option (until we get auto-sizing layers, of 
course).


regards,
peter

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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Sven Neumann]

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 21:18 -0500, Frank Gore wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:12 PM, David Gowers <00a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > +1 on this; It jars me momentarily every time I open this dialog and
> > the setting is stuck to None instead of what I last selected.
> 
> What's unfortunate is that most of the tools in the toolbox have the
> ability to have their default settings changed, but many of the
> dialogs do not. It would be nice if the "Save tool options on exit"
> feature from the preferences could be expanded to the dialogs too. But
> where does it stop? I often wish my filters remembered their settings,
> but I'm pretty sure that's beyond the control of the developers.

Not really. It's on the TODO for quite a while already. But it's quite a
big task and it might take years before it gets enough priority that
someone actually sits down and attacks it. Of course if it bothers you
so much, you might want to be the one who fixes it...


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Jay Smith]

On 03/10/2010 03:27 PM, yahvuu wrote:
> Martin Nordholts wrote:
>> 2010/3/10 yahvuu :
>>> Each of these dialog options points at a potential interaction problem. If 
>>> the
>>> dialog remembers an option, the user also has to remember that option.
>>> In general, this amounts to additional cognitive burden to keep the mental 
>>> model
>>> in sync with the application state.
> 
>> Hmm I don't understand, how would there be additional cognitive burden
>> on users if a dialog remembers a setting across invocations?
> 
> You are right, that was an invalid generalisation. I was thinking of the 'New 
> Layer' dialog
> where the 'fill' option tends to get in the way.
> (If i leave that option to a fixed value -- like a prefs item -- there's no 
> problem, i can
> just hit  enter to create the new layer. If i, however, do change this value, 
> i'd better
> remember this the next time i create a new layer.)
> 
> 
>> The more options we can get rid of, the better.
> 
> yep, that's what i was after
> 
> 
> regards,
> peter

I am not convinced that the 'New Layer' example given presents a
"better" situation as described.

In my mind, what is being overlooked is that there IS always a state
(setting value).  The question is a) whether the program always forces
the state back to some constant or b) whether the program remembers what
the user last set it to.

I think there is more "cognitive burden" _and_ "real physical burden" in
having to always know that the program will always force a setting to a
certain value and that the user might always have to change that value.

In the 'New Layer' example given, if I am doing a certain repetitive
task, it is *highly* likely that I will want the new layer to have the
same fill every time I do that function.  There is a significant
"burden" in having to change this setting _every_ time.  (And to make it
worse, some of these settings are not so easily accessible via keyboard,
thus wrecking my shoulder from mousing too much.)

So, which is better:

a) Knowing that the program will always force a default value and having
to change it much of the time (in my case for Canvas Resizing, ALL the
time).

b) Knowing that the user is responsible to paying attention to what the
value says when they get to the dialog and if it is correct for the task
(which it will then be, once the user has set it, until later changed by
the user).

There is another option, but a bit more complicated:  1) Make the "force
to a default" vs "use last setting" a configurable preference. AND 2)
Make the value of the default a configurable preference.

Jay
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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[yahvuu]

Martin Nordholts wrote:
> 2010/3/10 yahvuu :
>> Each of these dialog options points at a potential interaction problem. If 
>> the
>> dialog remembers an option, the user also has to remember that option.
>> In general, this amounts to additional cognitive burden to keep the mental 
>> model
>> in sync with the application state.

> Hmm I don't understand, how would there be additional cognitive burden
> on users if a dialog remembers a setting across invocations?

You are right, that was an invalid generalisation. I was thinking of the 'New 
Layer' dialog
where the 'fill' option tends to get in the way.
(If i leave that option to a fixed value -- like a prefs item -- there's no 
problem, i can
just hit  enter to create the new layer. If i, however, do change this value, 
i'd better
remember this the next time i create a new layer.)


> The more options we can get rid of, the better.

yep, that's what i was after


regards,
peter
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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Martin Nordholts]

2010/3/10 yahvuu :
> Hi,
>
> Jay Smith wrote:
 I believe that this setting should be remembered a) during the session
 of editing an image; b) during all sessions editing all images; and c)
 between sessions of shutting down and restarting Gimp.
>
>> It seems to me that there are quite a few of "these situations" in Gimp.
>
> Another point of view:
>
> Each of these dialog options points at a potential interaction problem. If the
> dialog remembers an option, the user also has to remember that option.
> In general, this amounts to additional cognitive burden to keep the mental 
> model
> in sync with the application state.

Hi yahvuu

Hmm I don't understand, how would there be additional cognitive burden
on users if a dialog remembers a setting across invocations? Or do you
mean that the setting itself is additional cognitive burden? If so,
then I agree. The more options we can get rid of, the better.

BR,
Martin
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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[yahvuu]

Hi,

Jay Smith wrote:
>>> Image > Canvas Size
>>> in the "Set Image Canvas Size" dialog
>>> in the Layers section at the bottom
>>> there are five different possible settings, including None, All Layers,
>>> etc. etc.
>>>
>>> In Gimp 2.6.6 (Ubuntu Linux 8.04) this defaults to "None" and ALWAYS
>>> remains none EVERY time I go to the dialog, even if I had it changed to
>>> something else on this image or a previous image.
>>>
>>> I believe that this setting should be remembered a) during the session
>>> of editing an image; b) during all sessions editing all images; and c)
>>> between sessions of shutting down and restarting Gimp.

[..]

> It seems to me that there are quite a few of "these situations" in Gimp.
> 
> I know it is a big PITA, but eventually, I think "they" should all get
> remembered as the last-used state *where appropriate*.
> 
> I fully realize that it is *not appropriate* to remember last used state
> in all situations.
> 
> Is there an organized checklist of all this "stuff" that we could work
> through?

Another point of view:

Each of these dialog options points at a potential interaction problem. If the
dialog remembers an option, the user also has to remember that option.
In general, this amounts to additional cognitive burden to keep the mental model
in sync with the application state.

In consequence, each of these settings is worth beeing questioned and every 
potential
solution to get rid of such an option is worth a posting on the brainstorm.

For example, the "Image->Canvas Size |resize layers|" option, with which you 
started
this thread, can be obliterated by automatic layer size management.


regards,
peter

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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Martin Nordholts]

On 03/09/2010 11:15 PM, Jay Smith wrote:
> It seems to me to be more useful to remember what the user does rather
> than some setting that the user never uses.

Hi,

Absolutely. This isn't controversial. Now all that is missing is a patch.

BR,
Martin


-- 

My GIMP Blog:
http://www.chromecode.com/
"Multi-column dock windows and 2.8 schedule"
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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Jay Smith]

On 03/09/2010 09:12 PM, David Gowers wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Jay Smith  wrote:
>> If this issue has not been addressed yet and if I can't find anything in
>> Bugzilla on it, I want to make an Enhancement Suggestion, first on the
>> Gimp-Developer list, then Bugzilla.
>>
>> However, I don't have the quick or convenient ability to check the
>> current status of this issue in the most recent Gimp version.  (I am a
>> "user only" and am not involved in installing such programs.)  I am
>> hoping that somebody who has the most recent version can check this for
>> me.  Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Image > Canvas Size
>> in the "Set Image Canvas Size" dialog
>> in the Layers section at the bottom
>> there are five different possible settings, including None, All Layers,
>> etc. etc.
>>
>> In Gimp 2.6.6 (Ubuntu Linux 8.04) this defaults to "None" and ALWAYS
>> remains none EVERY time I go to the dialog, even if I had it changed to
>> something else on this image or a previous image.
>>
>> I believe that this setting should be remembered a) during the session
>> of editing an image; b) during all sessions editing all images; and c)
>> between sessions of shutting down and restarting Gimp.
>>

> +1 on this; It jars me momentarily every time I open this dialog and
> the setting is stuck to None instead of what I last selected.

Thanks David,

It seems to me that there are quite a few of "these situations" in Gimp.

I know it is a big PITA, but eventually, I think "they" should all get
remembered as the last-used state *where appropriate*.

I fully realize that it is *not appropriate* to remember last used state
in all situations.

Is there an organized checklist of all this "stuff" that we could work
through?

Jay

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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Frank Gore]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:12 PM, David Gowers <00a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 on this; It jars me momentarily every time I open this dialog and
> the setting is stuck to None instead of what I last selected.

What's unfortunate is that most of the tools in the toolbox have the
ability to have their default settings changed, but many of the
dialogs do not. It would be nice if the "Save tool options on exit"
feature from the preferences could be expanded to the dialogs too. But
where does it stop? I often wish my filters remembered their settings,
but I'm pretty sure that's beyond the control of the developers.

-- 
Frank Gore
Project Manager
www.projectpontiac.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[David Gowers]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Jay Smith  wrote:
> If this issue has not been addressed yet and if I can't find anything in
> Bugzilla on it, I want to make an Enhancement Suggestion, first on the
> Gimp-Developer list, then Bugzilla.
>
> However, I don't have the quick or convenient ability to check the
> current status of this issue in the most recent Gimp version.  (I am a
> "user only" and am not involved in installing such programs.)  I am
> hoping that somebody who has the most recent version can check this for
> me.  Thanks in advance.
>
> Image > Canvas Size
> in the "Set Image Canvas Size" dialog
> in the Layers section at the bottom
> there are five different possible settings, including None, All Layers,
> etc. etc.
>
> In Gimp 2.6.6 (Ubuntu Linux 8.04) this defaults to "None" and ALWAYS
> remains none EVERY time I go to the dialog, even if I had it changed to
> something else on this image or a previous image.
>
> I believe that this setting should be remembered a) during the session
> of editing an image; b) during all sessions editing all images; and c)
> between sessions of shutting down and restarting Gimp.
>
+1 on this; It jars me momentarily every time I open this dialog and
the setting is stuck to None instead of what I last selected.
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Re: [Gimp-user] ?? Status of remembering Layers setting for Canvas Resizing -- in most recent version

[Jay Smith]

> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Jay Smith  > wrote:
> 
> If this issue has not been addressed yet and if I can't find anything in
> Bugzilla on it, I want to make an Enhancement Suggestion, first on the
> Gimp-Developer list, then Bugzilla.
> 
> However, I don't have the quick or convenient ability to check the
> current status of this issue in the most recent Gimp version.  (I am a
> "user only" and am not involved in installing such programs.)  I am
> hoping that somebody who has the most recent version can check this for
> me.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> Image > Canvas Size
> in the "Set Image Canvas Size" dialog
> in the Layers section at the bottom
> there are five different possible settings, including None, All Layers,
> etc. etc.
> 
> In Gimp 2.6.6 (Ubuntu Linux 8.04) this defaults to "None" and ALWAYS
> remains none EVERY time I go to the dialog, even if I had it changed to
> something else on this image or a previous image.
> 
> I believe that this setting should be remembered a) during the session
> of editing an image; b) during all sessions editing all images; and c)
> between sessions of shutting down and restarting Gimp.
> 
> ?? Can somebody let me know if this has been changed (and is now
> remembered) since 2.6.6 ?
> 
> ?? Does anybody think this should not be remembered ?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jay

On 03/09/2010 05:01 PM, Dick Smith wrote:
> The behavior is the same on mine. I don't believe that it is a bug,
> but rather a design issue. That's not an answer to your question, but
> it looks like it was designed to do that. If it stayed the way you
> set it up, then every image you'd edit would exhibit the same
> behavior...is that what you really are looking for?
> 
> Dick

Hi Dick,

Based on the way you worded what you said, I am not exactly sure we are
speaking of the same behavior.

I agree that what I am seeing is a design issue, not a bug.  But to a
user it has six legs and runs around on the floor.  ;-)

What I want is that type of setting to "default" to what I last used.
So, yes, I want it to do the same action every time I do that task,
until I tell it to do a different action.

What it is doing now IS remembering a setting (always the same one no
matter what I do) -- what it is remembering happens to be _never_ what I
want to do.  :-(

It seems to me to be more useful to remember what the user does rather
than some setting that the user never uses.

Imagine if you had to sharpen a pencil EVERY time you wanted to use it.
And every time you set it back down on the desk the point completely
disappeared.  ;-)

Jay
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