Re: sendmail masquerading question
On Sep 16, 2007, at 20:01, Ben Scott wrote: Now that you know that, what can you do that you couldn't before? :-) Your hostnames aren't bad. From the HELO strings I've been seeing, now that I sometimes pay attention, I see very generic outside names like mx1 and inside names like NETWARE5-003. Telnetting back to them I might hit a PIX smtp fixup, but I still know which menu of sploits to throw back at them. (theoretically, of course). Not to try to prove the negative, but typically the approach of preventing information leaks 'just 'cuz' is better than leaking 'cause you're not currently aware of any problems that might create, because every once in a while you get caught by surprise. That's not maximizing for ease of troubleshooting, of course. Plus, I just set your Tivo to record random shows from the Lifetime network. ;) -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: High Latency Survival Tactics
On 9/14/07, Paul Lussier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then the hardest part is trying to figure out how to use ed to edit text files. The same way you'd use vi to edit text files if you were blind-folded :) No, use ex. It's the command line version of vi. All your vi keystrokes work but you don't need a full screen. ed has different commands. On the latency note, I've use dxpc in the past with some success. It compresses the X11 protocol instead of the data stream. X11 is very chatty so DXPC (Differential X Protocol Compressor) usually works better then running standard compression (ssh -C) on the line. Of course nowadays I have a 15/2 Fios connection. I used to have a 14.4kmodem and yes, you can run X over it. Slowly. I think I'm too spoiled to ever do it again. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: w00t! What a ride!
On 9/17/07, Bill Sconce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft's takeover of ISO thwarted ... considerable backlash as the nature of the effort ... becomes known.[1] Anyone know if any of this is getting coverage in the mainstream press? Or even the mainstream IT press? The sources given are, shall we say, not exactly unbiased. Groklaw and FSF Europe, in particular, have an overt agenda. I happen to agree with their agenda, but depending on their press releases for my information is still going to be little more than an opinion feedback loop. Has anyone outside of the geek community reported on Microsoft's latest tricks? On 9/17/07, Jon 'maddog' Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'According to Mr. Alksnis, the story smells badly.' Leave it to the Russians to tell it as it is. Hmmm. Russian news sources are being identified as typically honest. That's it, I'm officially living in bizarro-world now. ;-) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: w00t! What a ride!
Ben Scott wrote: On 9/17/07, Bill Sconce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft's takeover of ISO thwarted ... considerable backlash as the nature of the effort ... becomes known.[1] Anyone know if any of this is getting coverage in the mainstream press? Or even the mainstream IT press? The sources given are, shall we say, not exactly unbiased. Groklaw and FSF Europe, in particular, have an overt agenda. I happen to agree with their agenda, but depending on their press releases for my information is still going to be little more than an opinion feedback loop. Has anyone outside of the geek community reported on Microsoft's latest tricks? Outside of 'geek?' Depends on where you draw the line. Outside of Slashdot, Groklaw and Ars Technica? Mainstream IT press, yes: http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/09/14/Google-applauds-ISO-vote-voices-OOXML-concerns_1.html http://feeds.computerworld.com/~r/Computerworld/News/~3/154421033/article.do http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9770507-7.html?part=rsssubj=newstag=2547-1_3-0-5 In the real press? Strangely, I couldn't find anything on MSNBC ;) Money reprints Microsoft's press release, claiming the defeat was a victory: http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQTU10304092007-1.htm The Boston Globe reprinted the Reuters feed, which offered a more balanced view: http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/09/05/microsoft_loses_vote_on_open_document_format/ (that link is likely to disappear behind their pay-to-view firewall, soon) -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: w00t! What a ride!
Bill, 'According to Mr. Alksnis, “the story smells badly.' Leave it to the Russians to tell it as it is. But you missed this story: http://eng.cnews.ru/news/top/indexEn.shtml?2007/09/14/266177 md -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006) (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: w00t! What a ride!
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:55:06 -0400 Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/17/07, Bill Sconce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft's takeover of ISO thwarted ... considerable backlash as the nature of the effort ... becomes known.[1] Anyone know if any of this is getting coverage in the mainstream press? Or even the mainstream IT press? The sources given are, shall we say, not exactly unbiased. [...] Has anyone outside of the geek community reported on Microsoft's latest tricks? Janet just called, from out in the world, and says it's been all over the radio. (Of course, Janet is not exactly unbiased either. :) -Bill P.S. Mainstream press? Hm. Wall Street Journal? P.P.S. EUR497 million, plus EUR3 million per day. That could add up to real money... __ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119001194509829543.html?mod=fpa_whatsnews EU Court Rejects Microsoft Appeal Decision Has Implications For Further Cases Involving Microsoft and Other Firms By CHARLES FORELLE September 17, 2007 1:09 p.m. BRUSSELS -- One of Europe's highest courts handed Microsoft Corp. a stinging defeat in its hard-fought antitrust case, dismissing nearly all of the company's appeal of a landmark 2004 decision by the European Union and upholding EUR497 million ($689.7 million) in fines. The ruling by the European Court of First Instance endorsed in broad strokes the EU's power to regulate dominant companies abusing their market position. Microsoft said it hasn't decided yet whether to appeal the ruling to Europe's highest tribunal, the European Court of Justice. We just need to think about this. It's a serious and substantial decision and it deserves serious thought rather than an instantaneous decision, Brad Smith, the company's general counsel, told reporters in Brussels. The latest ruling arms European antitrust authorities with strong tools to further pursue Microsoft, if it chooses to, as well as other dominant, high-tech players. The court, which sits in Luxembourg, brushed aside Microsoft's arguments that its intellectual property should provide protection from regulation and that high-tech industries, by their fast-moving nature, should be treated with a different hand. The court's ruling also moves Europe's antitrust jurisprudence further away from that of the U.S., where regulators are less apt to view aggressive conduct by dominant companies as abusive. EU antitrust commissioner Neelie Kroes said after the court's ruling that she won't tolerate continued noncompliance by Microsoft. Ms. Kroes said Microsoft's share of the software market is now far too much to give competitors a fair chance to compete, and said regulators want to see a significant drop in Microsoft's market share. In Europe, abuse-of-dominance is forbidden by a section of the European treaty known as Article 82. But courts have had relatively few opportunities to outline Article 82's scope. The Microsoft case represented a choice opportunity -- and the court took it, saying the EU's executive arm, the European Commission, had proceeded appropriately in drawing broad powers from Article 82 to move against the software giant. The Microsoft case had two key components. The first was whether the Redmond, Wash. software giant abused its dominant position by bundling the Windows Media Player inside its Windows operating system. The EU argued the bundling was illegal under European antitrust law since it disadvantaged others who produced -- or might want to try -- a separate media player. RealNetworks Inc., the maker of an alternative player, joined that case but settled with Microsoft in 2005 for $761 million. The bundling allegations resemble the crux of an earlier antitrust case brought by U.S. authorities against Microsoft, which was built around how the bundled Web browser was used against rival Netscape. The case's other main component concerned protocols that allow other manufacturers' servers to communicate with Microsoft machines in a type of network known as a workgroup. These servers are commonly used for tasks such as maintaining a directory of users and controlling their access to the network, storing shared files and queuing documents for printers. In 1998, Sun Microsystems Inc. complained to the EU that Microsoft had refused to share interoperability information it needed to let servers running its operating system work with Microsoft-based computers. That complaint touched off the EU's investigation; six years later, it handed down its decision. That landmark decision, more than 300 pages in length and the culmination of a six-year probe by EU officials, prescribed a harsh fine -- EUR497 million -- and ordered Microsoft to remove its media player from the Windows operating system and share communications protocols with rivals who wanted their machines to work with Windows computers. The decision reflected years of frustration on both sides.
Problem with wrt54gl router
I have a Linksys WRT54GL router with the original firmware. It worked fine until yesterday. When I bring up the network /etc/resolv.conf has the following: search nameserver 192.168.1.1 This is true for both hardwired and wireless. If I run dhclient it acts as if everything is working but I get no nameservers. If I connect directly to the external network everything works fine. Don ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Problem with wrt54gl router
On 9/17/07, Don Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I bring up the network /etc/resolv.conf has the following: search nameserver 192.168.1.1 This is true for both hardwired and wireless. What were you expecting instead? Have you tried actually running a lookup with that IP address as the nameserver? 192.168.1.1 may actually be correct. As I recall, the stock LinkSys firmware runs a DNS proxy on the router. That means machines inside your LAN can just send their DNS queries to the router, and the router will handle forwarding the request out to whatever the ISP nameservers are today. Assuming that is *not* the situation: Have you tried rebooting the router? Have you tried updating to the latest firmware on the router? (These are standard procedures, yes, but they're standard because they often work. :) ) Assuming *that* does not fix anything: What OS/distribution/release are you running on your DHCP client? -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Problem with wrt54gl router
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:05:04 -1000 From: Don Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on AD2-MSG01/SRV/Raytheon(Release 7.0.2FP1|January 10, 2007) at 09/17/2007 15:05:06, Serialize by Router on AD2-MSG01/SRV/Raytheon(Release 7.0.2FP1|January 10, 2007) at 09/17/2007 15:05:06, Serialize complete at 09/17/2007 15:05:06 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a Linksys WRT54GL router with the original firmware. It worked fine until yesterday. When I bring up the network /etc/resolv.conf has the following: search nameserver 192.168.1.1 Is this on the router itself or a client on the LAN? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Problem with wrt54gl router
Ben Scott wrote: On 9/17/07, Don Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I bring up the network /etc/resolv.conf has the following: search nameserver 192.168.1.1 This is true for both hardwired and wireless. What were you expecting instead? Have you tried actually running a lookup with that IP address as the nameserver? 192.168.1.1 may actually be correct. As I recall, the stock LinkSys firmware runs a DNS proxy on the router. That means machines inside your LAN can just send their DNS queries to the router, and the router will handle forwarding the request out to whatever the ISP nameservers are today. Assuming that is *not* the situation: Have you tried rebooting the router? Have you tried updating to the latest firmware on the router? (These are standard procedures, yes, but they're standard because they often work. :) ) Assuming *that* does not fix anything: What OS/distribution/release are you running on your DHCP client? -- Ben I do not remember what it looked like when things worked. If I try to ping the Roadrunner name server I get from 192.16.1.1 Destination Unreachable dig fails to find a server I am running SuSE 10.2 . I rebooted the router which made no difference. I could look into new firmware but it has been running fine for months. Don ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: w00t! What a ride!
Hmmm. Russian news sources are being identified as typically honest. That's it, I'm officially living in bizarro-world now. ;-) While official Russian news sources sometimes have to be taken with a grain of salt, the average Russian on the street is pretty savvy and fairly blunt about things. In this case I think he was spot on. As to bizarro-world, I direct your attention to many of the US 'news' sources. :-O md ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Problem with wrt54gl router
On 9/17/07, Don Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I try to ping the Roadrunner name server I get from 192.16.1.1 Destination Unreachable I assume you mean 192.168.1.1 in the above (168, not 16), and that 192.168.1.1 is the IP address of your router. If my assumptions are correct: What your router is saying is that it has no route to the address you were pinging. That occurs below the level of DNS (at the IP layer), so the DNS issue is likely more of a symptom than a cause. Most likely, your router isn't getting any DHCP information from the ISP, so it does not have an IP address on the public Internet (which is why it has no route to the Internet). See if you can log-in to the web management UI on the LinkSys router. Typically this will mean entering http://192.168.1.1 on the router. The default password will be in the manual, but I think it's either linksys, admin, or password. The username doesn't matter on most LinkSys models. Once you're in the web UI, go to the Status information screen, and check the Internet/WAN status. I rebooted the router which made no difference. I take it you have cable Internet? Have you tried the standard generic cable Internet reset procedure? That is: 1. Note the present indicator lights on the cable modem and LinkSys router. 2. Shutdown your LAN DHCP clients. 3. Unplug power from cable modem and LinkSys router. 4. Wait 15 minutes. (Yes, that long. Really.) 5. Plug cable modem power back in. 6. Wait for the cable modem to re-acquire service. This will typically be indicated by indicator lights on the modem. See step 1. :) 7. Plug LinkSys router power back in. 8. Wait for the LinkSys to boot. Again, look at the lights. 9. Power one of your LAN DHCP clients back on. See if it works. The above fixes a lot of problems. I could look into new firmware but it has been running fine for months. Right, but it's not running fine now. Obviously *something* happened. :) Re-flashing is the firmware equivalent to unplugging everything and plugging it all back in again. It sometimes fixes things, but we never really know why. Possible correlations include the ISP changing something which broke your old firmware, and the existing firmware somehow getting corrupted. Still, at this point, it sounds more like a provider service problem to me. I'd save re-flashing for later, as more of a last resort. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Happy Birthday, Linux!
It was on this date in 1991 that Linus Torvalds had the first tar ball (V0.01 of the kernel) posted to an ftp site. Originally the name of the kernel project was to be Freax, but Linus' friend who did the posting decided to over-rule Linus and renamed it Linux. Honest I didn't want to ever release it under the name Linux because it was too egotistical. What was the name I reserved for any eventual release? Freax. (Get it? Freaks with the requisite X.) In fact, some of the early make files --the files that describe how to compile the sources-- included the word Freax for about half a year. But it really didn't matter. At that point I didn't need a name for it because I wasn't releasing it to anybody. And Ari Lemke, who insured that it made its way to the ftp site, hated the name Freax. He preferred the other working name I admit that I didn't put up much of a fight. But it was his doing. So I can honestly say I wasn't egotistical, or half-honestly say I wasn't egotistical. But I thought okay, that's a good name, and I can always blame somebody else for it, which I'm doing now. -- Linus Torvalds p84 and p88 Just for fun So two days after Software Freedom Day we have the anniversary of the birth of Linux. maddog -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006) (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Tomcat Daemon staring blankly at me...
On 9/17/07, Thomas Charron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From system startup, it takes Tomcat like 3 minutes to actually be listening on any interface. Example: I know *nothing* about Tomcat, but problems like this always make me think DNS. In other words, program is stuck waiting for a critical name or address to resolve (or fail to resolve). Check your resolvers to make sure they're running, check DNS and/or /etc/hosts to make sure your interface addresses all exist in DNS, for both forward and reverse lookups, check your various web names to make sure they resolve, etc. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Problem with wrt54gl router
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:37:24 -0400 From: Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] See if you can log-in to the web management UI on the LinkSys router. Typically this will mean entering http://192.168.1.1 on the router. The default password will be in the manual, but I think it's either linksys, admin, or password. The username doesn't matter on most LinkSys models. If the admin password is still the default admin password, it may not be anymore. A neighbor with a default password list could easily cause this kind of trouble. ;) 3. Unplug power from cable modem and LinkSys router. 4. Wait 15 minutes. (Yes, that long. Really.) I have to second step #4. That's how long it really takes for all the broken electrons to flow back down the wires to Comcast. 5. Plug cable modem power back in. I could look into new firmware but it has been running fine for months. Right, but it's not running fine now. Obviously *something* happened. :) Did you try the reset button? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Problem with wrt54gl router
On 9/17/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 4. Wait 15 minutes. (Yes, that long. Really.) I have to second step #4. That's how long it really takes for all the broken electrons to flow back down the wires to Comcast. For those interested in Why: What we're after here is two things: One is that most cable operators have their modems set to speak to only one Ethernet (MAC) address on the customer side. The modem associates with the first address it sees. Power cycling the modem will reset this. This one really only needs a wait for a few seconds. The second thing is that sometimes there is some kind of glitch between the cable modem and the cable operator's plant (inclusive). Dropping signal at your end for several minutes will cause the head-end to decide you've gone away, and clear whatever state it keeps about you. Thus when you come back, it re-does all of the initialization stuff. If you come back too quickly, it might decide you just glitched for a bit, and keep that (presumably corrupt) state around. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: w00t! What a ride!
Ben Scott wrote: Anyone know if any of this is getting coverage in the mainstream press? Or even the mainstream IT press? The sources given are, shall we say, not exactly unbiased. Even very different perspectives are covered: Retired Ecma chief expects Open XML's approval by March http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasicarticleId=9033301pageNumber=1 or: http://tinyurl.com/2r2hmo -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Software Freedom Day events in Nashua, 15-Sept-2007
Several GNHLUG members and volunteers attended Software Freedom Day festivities in Nashua. Due to inclement weather, the Python pickup was left out in the rain with signs pointing towards the GetInk4U store where owner Bill had very generously made space for us. Bill Sconce had done a knockout job as usual, in preparing some very sharp handouts, OpenCD disks (you've gotta check out the CDs Bill printed using InkScape: sharp, clear and a great layout!) and Ubuntu disks. Janet did a marvelous job supplying some awesome cookies. Jim Kuzdrall, Rosanne and Ben Scott and I were there for moral support, helping to set up signs, pass out goodies, eat the cookies and schmooze with attendees. Several folks showed up, again thanks to GotInk4U's owner Bill having sent out an email to his 17k+ customers that SFD was happening at his store. We noted that everyone who came by for disks also picked up some ink or cables or other merchandise (as did several of the SFD volunteers!) . One fellow had gotten an email from a former neighbor, now in Arizona, who sent him to the store to pick up an OpenCD. Bill Sconce's report on the event: http://softwarefreedomday.org/teams/northamerica/NH/souheganvalley Pictures to follow. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Tomcat Daemon staring blankly at me...
Quick question for anyone who's administered Tomcat in the past. From system startup, it takes Tomcat like 3 minutes to actually be listening on any interface. Example: Sep 17, 2007 1:35:34 PM org.apache.catalina.core.AprLifecycleListener init INFO: APR capabilities: IPv6 [true], sendfile [true], accept filters [false], random [true]. Sep 17, 2007 1:37:05 PM org.apache.coyote.http11.Http11AprProtocol init INFO: Initializing Coyote HTTP/1.1 on http-8080 There's a minute and a half where it appears to be doing nothing. :-( -- -- Thomas ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Problem with wrt54gl router
If you need to reset this router back to defaults, power it down, and then push in the reset button and hold for 30 seconds.. I think this can also be accomplished va the admin GUI as well JFeole -- Ben Scott wrote: On 9/17/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 4. Wait 15 minutes. (Yes, that long. Really.) I have to second step #4. That's how long it really takes for all the broken electrons to flow back down the wires to Comcast. For those interested in Why: What we're after here is two things: One is that most cable operators have their modems set to speak to only one Ethernet (MAC) address on the customer side. The modem associates with the first address it sees. Power cycling the modem will reset this. This one really only needs a wait for a few seconds. The second thing is that sometimes there is some kind of glitch between the cable modem and the cable operator's plant (inclusive). Dropping signal at your end for several minutes will cause the head-end to decide you've gone away, and clear whatever state it keeps about you. Thus when you come back, it re-does all of the initialization stuff. If you come back too quickly, it might decide you just glitched for a bit, and keep that (presumably corrupt) state around. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Perl best practices
On 9/13/07, Paul Lussier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For all those just tuning in, Ben and I are in violent and vocal
agreement with each other, and at this point are merely quibbling over
semantics :)
Hey, now, I came here for an argument, and I demand to get one! And
it better be more than just simple contradiction, too. I expect a
connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition!
;-)
(And they say Perl and Python have nothing in common. ;-) )
To avoid LTS and backslashitis in a regexp, I tend to do something like:
m|/foo/bar|/bar/baz|g;
The pipe (|) is another often-used regexp syntax character, though.
If I was going to use a single alternate character for m//, I'd prolly
use a bang (!). But I like balanced pairs -- {} or or [] or or ()
-- because they nicely identify the start and end of the thing, rather
than simply delimiting it. And if it's a substitution, they let you
separate the pattern from the replacement with whitespace. I
frequently use that to line things up for visual structure (e.g., that
condense_type() function I posted).
Agreed, though, we ... do things like this slightly differently,
completely avoiding the $_ dilemma:
That actually wouldn't work for the code I posted, which is
performing multiple transformations on the same string repeatedly.
The fact that you missed that concerns me. *That's* a sign of
inadequate clarity. Looking at the code, I don't see a way to make
that clearer in the code itself, so I guess it needs a comment to that
effect. Phooey. (In my thinking, ideal code needs *no* comments,
because it's so obvious what's going on. Obviously, that's a
theoretical ideal, and not something that happens in practice, but I
think it makes a good goal.)
Unrelated to the above, I think there is an observation to be made
here about sophisticated solutions also adding complexity. KISS, as
the saying goes. By introducing variables and loops and control
structures, you're making things more complex, to no gain that I can
see. A simple list of s/// operations does the same thing, and does
not require any additional cognition on the part of the reader. (It
might even be more efficient at runtime, although that would depend on
how smart Perl's optimizer is.)
... by we, I mean the company which currently puts food on my table ...
I didn't know Stop and Shop used Perl... ;-)
Once readability has been achieved, the next
priority ought to be future maintenance and extensibility, IMO.
Yup.
Alas, assertNumArgs() is a part of a huge
home-grown library of routines we have.
Everybody has these. They're extremely useful.
The compelling argument is this: It should be blatantly obvious to
whomever is going to be maintaining your code in 6 months what you
were thinking
I do not think I could agree with you more here. The thing you seem
to be ignoring in my argument is that clarity is subjective and
often depends on context. :)
I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying that where you have stopped because
you think it is sufficiently clear can in fact be made cleaner and
clearer for the sakes of both clarity and future maintenance.
No, I'm saying that clarity is subjective and depends on context,
and what you deem clearer I deem less clear.
There are only a finite number of options for any given command [such as
tar]. The
same is not true for writing perl code.
True, but I think my point still stands. Verbosity does not equal
clarity, and indeed, verbosity sometimes interferes with readability.
(My choice of tar was, perhaps, a bad example, because I do agree
with your argument WRT to your AMANDA example.)
-- Ben
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