BLU google calendar [Was BLU mtg Wed. Feb 16, 7pm Net Neutrality and the FCC

2011-02-09 Thread jkinz
> Caroline will moderate and lead a discussion on the recent FCC Net
> Neutrality rulings. The following is a short extract of topics Caroline
> and guests plan to cover:

 Looks like an extremely interesting topic.  Wish I could make it
to this one, but I'm previously committed. 

 :) 

I would have reserved this meeting time but it didn't show up in my 
Google calendars.

I do have the blu-eve...@gapps.blu.org calendar enabled in my gcal
views, but it seems to be empty. 

Anyone know if that calendar been replaced or abandoned? 

-- 
Jeff KinzEmergent Design,
Authored using Dragon Naturally Speaking software, errors may be present.

answer:Yes, Absolutely.
> question :   Are you sure?
>> answer: It reverses the conversation making it harder to follow.
>>> question:  Why is top posting frowned upon?

teachers.tv/videos/benjamin-zander
Its all invented.Standing in possibility.Remember Rule 6.

If its not fun, you're not doing it right. (Notable exception: discussing
evolution with people who think the earth is 6,000 years old. :-) ) 
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RESOLVED comcast dhcp leases

2009-08-26 Thread jkinz
 Resolved - as I investigated I discovered my dhclient.conf file
had disappeared. (I assume because I had at one point played 
with the GUI tool for setting up DHCP on that interface)

I put up a minimal conf and started immediately getting more
reasonable leases.

Jeff.

-- 
Some of this text was created using speech recognition software.
Some errors may be present in the transcription.

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
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comcast dhcp leases

2009-08-25 Thread jkinz
Hi all - I notice that  comcast has dropped its dhcp lease times
down to about 15 minutes, it used to be a number of hours, which
is rather longer.   I wonder if its possible to somehow have the
dhcp requests ask for a longer lease period?  Anyone know, how If
its possible?

Jeff

-- 
Some of this text was created using speech recognition software.
Some errors may be present in the transcription.

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
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Re: [OT] Re: UNIX license plate

2009-05-24 Thread jkinz
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:35:04AM -0400, Paul Lussier wrote:
> I too, had one of those plates on the front of my car.  Recently when
> I brought in for it's every-13-month re-inspection, the mechanic
> performing the inspection informed me afterwards that he is required
> to remove vanity plates from cars, as they are "now illegal".
> 
> I don't know if they're really illegal (nor have I bothered to find
> out). And if they are, I have no idea when they became so, as I've had
> that plate on there for several years.  I've even been stopped for
> speeding and never had the officer comment on it (of course, he was
> always behind me looking at the one valid plate).

Just out of curiosity, does the mechanic keep the plates or
return the property to its owner?

Jeff
-- 
This text was created using speech recognition software.
Some errors may be present in the transcription.

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
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Re: OT: International Homographs WAS: Re: Linux taking over

2009-02-13 Thread jkinz


Huh? what?  Why?  

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 01:13:57PM +, virgins...@vfemail.net wrote:
> > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> > >> A: Top-posting.
> > >>> Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?
> 
> I love that .sig.

:)

-- 
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IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence
Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES
ACT 1914.  If you have received this email in error, you are requested to
contact the sender and delete the email. 

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:-) Please use [OT] for Re: FYI: The Unix philosophy

2009-02-10 Thread jkinz
On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 10:00:06PM -0500, Ben Scott wrote:
> "Write programs that do one thing and do it well.  Write programs to
> work together.  Write programs that handle text streams, because that
> is a universal interface."  -- Doug McIlroy (inventor of Unix pipes;
> currently Adjunct Professor at NH's own Dartmouth College)
> 
> >From _The UNIX Philosophy_ by Mike Gancarz (a member of original X
> window system team):
>Universal:
>1. Small is beautiful.
>2. Make each program do one thing well.
>3. Build a prototype as soon as possible.
>4. Choose portability over efficiency.
>5. Store data in flat text files.
>6. Use software leverage to your advantage.
>7. Use shell scripts to increase leverage and portability.
>8. Avoid captive user interfaces.
>9. Make every program a filter.



To Ben and Maddog as well: 

Please do not bring these abandoned topics (UNIX Philosophy)up in a
Linux email list.  they have no place here.

I used to use SUN and AT&T workstations based on Motorola 68010
CPUs robustly configured  with 2 Meg of RAM.  These systems were
distinctly faster that the 1 GHz CPU with 512 MB of RAM I sit at
today.  (in terms of responsiveness to the GUI and CLI as well as
most tasks capable of being done by machines that size). Today's
systems, on a "pound for pound" of computing resources basis, are
overwhelmingly slow and stupid. The degree of RAM gluttony alone
seems unbelievable.

It is clear that the Linux movement, even KDE, has largely, if
not completely, abandoned the UNIX philosophy as its guiding
principle of software design.  Each new distro I see become more
and more Windows-like in its underlying design.

The example of GNOME choosing to have non-human-editable
configuration files is but a single instance in this waterfall of
movement. Another is GNOME requiring all changes to the
configuration information be done through the gconf program. 

I believe the goal having Linux be easy enough for "Aunt Tillie"
to use is not merely desirable but nearly a divine mandate.
However it was not necessary to abandon the design principles
that made the creation of Linux desirable in the first place. 

Today's Linux systems are increasingly evolving into nothing more
than (poor) copies of MS Windows systems. Hugely bloated and
lacking any of the formerly saving graces of the UNIX
design approach.

The Windows mindset has so completely devoured the mental
concept space of "computer science" that some CS graduates today
think that even things like the command shells  and X-Windows are
part of the operating system. 

Jeff "Me? Bitter? ME?" Kinz  




Note - the above posting is not to be taken at face value. 
Look at its wirth instead. 
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Re: blocking attacks with shorewall+denyhosts (was Re: iptables out of memory?)

2009-01-31 Thread jkinz
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 05:57:24PM -0500, Alan Johnson wrote:
> Very sweet!  I'll have to look into that. I've had good experience with
> shorewall in the past, and there is a nice webmin module for it, but I've
> been holding off in this case it since iptables is easy enough to use for my
> simple IPA blocks, and I expect better perfomance with iptables since it is
> built into the kernel, but I don't really know.

IIRC Shorewall is front end to iptables so getting the same
performance is possible, in theory - depending on what Shorewall 
does for you that you may not want. :-) 

Jeff Kinz


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Re: Postfix authentication to ComCast port 587

2009-01-21 Thread jkinz
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:23:53AM -0500, Bill McGonigle wrote:
> On 2009-01-20 9:25 AM, Michael ODonnell wrote:
> > Dang.  This means it's going to be a PITA to keep my Postfix
> > config files up to date such that they stay in sync with that
> > externally visible hostname since it changes every time I get
> > renumbered.  I'll guess I'll have to do something scripty to
> > rewrite the config file and then restart Postfix every time
> > it happens.>-/
> 
> I'd bet if you register a domain and use it Comcast will let you 
> through.  $15/yr @dyndns.  They also offer mail relay services at the 
> same price:
> 
>http://www.dyndns.com/services/mailhop/outbound_readme.html


Second the idea.  Thats what I do. 

For outbound there are daily limits, but you can get them rai$ed. 
Jeff Kinz
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Re: Is anyone hosting/organizing a party for February 13 23:31:30 2009 GMT?

2009-01-16 Thread jkinz
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 01:54:37PM -0500, Michael Pelletier wrote:
> It's a Friday evening, so it'd be a perfect time for a little get-together
> of Linux enthusiasts.


Wait ... You mean we Linux enthusiasts don't have anything else
to do on Friday evenings?... Nothing at all? 

[ ouch.. :-)  ]


Jeff

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Re: Blackduck Software and IP

2009-01-15 Thread jkinz
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:22:47AM -0500, Jeff Macdonald wrote:
> > Jeff Macdonald writes:
> >> But, as I said before, we don't distribute any code.
> ..
> I guess this could be ignorance on my part, but it was my
> understanding that at least with the GPL, one could do whatever they
> want with the code. But if the code was later distributed, one had to
> abide by the additional terms of the GPL.
> 
> Now you are confusing me, is it relevant or not? :)
> 
> Either way I need to do some re-reading.

The goal of the GPL is to have people share any changes they make
to GPL's code. (stating the obvious in crude and simple terms)

In GPL 2 - you only had to share your changes if you
distributed the code  (source or resulting binaries/executables).

As of GPL 3 - hmm - haven't read it enough yet. 

It seems clear that rms wants to include "web services" as "code
distribution' as well. When that will be covered and by which
version of the GPL, is something I don't know, but it seems clear
that eventually anytime you "sell" or "share" a product with a
user base outside your own company, by any means the GPL will
require change sharing. [note the "eventually"]

"by any means" would include a web application or cloud computing
or anything of that nature where the user is "using your code"
even if it is not running on their machine, but one of your
servers (or even a cloud of donated cpu cycles). 

This is all speculation but the direction that web based apps and
services are headed clearly require rms to include them as forms
of "distributing code" to meet his goals.  Whether a license can 
do that legally will only be decided by courts.. someday..
maybe..  :-)

Jeff Kinz
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Re: [k]ubuntu Jaunty

2009-01-12 Thread jkinz
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 03:59:01PM -0500, Thomas Charron wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Arc Riley  wrote:
> > Not recommended yet unless you're willing to deal bug reports.
> > I suggest waiting until beta1 at minimum, end of March.  See:
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyReleaseSchedule
> 
>   I'm going to go in.  Be nice to actually have some input again.
> Haven't done an Alpha for a Loong time.
> -- Thomas

Ah, another martyr for the cause! Praise Stallman! 

Now where do we get him 72 liters of extra virgin olive oil and 
a pair o' dice? 

:-) 

Jeff Kidding


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Re: Bots don't honor 301 :(

2009-01-12 Thread jkinz
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:53:19AM -0500, Thomas Charron wrote:
>   I remember what I considered one of the most effective efforts to
> shut down spammers, by simply taking away the cost insentive to use
> the service.  Unfortunatly, it was considered a counter attack, and
> hence shut down..
> 
>   Anyone recall the name of it?  It compiled URLs which spammers where
> pointing to, and basically had *everyone* on the network start pulling
> down those web pages.

IIRC that effort was shut down by concentrated counter attacks
by the spammers.  As for the name, all I can recall was it had
the word blue in it, I think.

it was a good idea but lacked sufficient distributed resources
and money to carry on the fight.

It also may have been a questionable technique due to the 
inability to prevent damage to innocent parties. 

For example, Spammer A wants to disrupt the website of someone they
don't like so they implement a small spam campaign on behalf of that
site and report it to the "blue-whatever" folks.  Result - that
someone's website get DDOS'ed by well intentioned but falsely aimed
folks.

Jeff Kinz.

-- 
Few things are as simple as they appear or as simple as we would
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Re: [Fwd: Open Source Bundle of Books Sale] from Apress

2009-01-11 Thread jkinz
On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:32:40AM -0500
> From: Apress User Group Liaison 
..
> Option A:
> Beginning Ubuntu LTS Server Administration: From Novice to Professional,
> Second Edition and Pro Ubuntu Server Administration for $45
> 
> Option B:
> Expert Oracle Database 11g Administration and Linux Recipes for Oracle
> DBAs for $60
> 
> Option C:
> Beginning CakePHP: From Novice to Professional and Practical CakePHP
> Projects for $45

Just for comparison purposes, those same bundles in PHYSICAL dead
tree books would each be $5 to $8 dollars more if purchased from
www.bookpool.com. 

Looks like most of these bundles would qualify for free shipping
from book pool at the Media rate which is slow, 10 days.

So a little cheaper, delivery a lot faster, 

   BUT...

Only an electronic copy, no print copy. 
(which may not matter to some)


Hmm.. just found out that their ebook format is a password
protected PDF file.   I hate browsing PDF's on my Linux boxen 
because I have yet to find a PDF viewer that isn't slower than
molasses on my systems. (literally, 3 - 10 seconds to open a new
page)

No reflection on Ted's good work in passing the info to the list.

My preferences are strictly mine and may or may not be shared by
others.  I just wish they would find better formats for e-books. 

(hmm - wonder if it can be used in a Kindle.. ? ) 

Jeff Kinz
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Re: How to remove duplicate files [SOLVED]

2009-01-06 Thread jkinz
On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 05:47:17PM -0500, Ben Scott wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:33 AM,   wrote:
> > in a similar vein, anyone who uses rsync or who wants to keep
> > an exact copy of a set of files sync'ed in two (or more)
> > different places look at "unison"
> 
>   What makes unison better than rsync?

I don't know!  I'm waiting for someone to open
the box and tell me if the admin is alive or dead

:-) 

Quite possibly rsync is better at some things than unison, but
for keeping sets of files at multiple locations in sync it
seems unison is "better" (for some values of "better" )

Linux Journal article: 
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/file-synchronization-unison

One note - rsync is better at managing disk space when there's not
much room left. 


http://erdelynet.com/archive/ssh-l/2004-06/2624.html
he thinks unison is better


Perhaps this table tells it best:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/filesync.html


(The almost famous Rick Moen.. :-)   ) 
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correct Unison URL http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/

2009-01-06 Thread jkinz
Correction to Unison URL, it is:
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/

Jeff kinz

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Re: How to remove duplicate files [SOLVED]

2009-01-06 Thread jkinz
On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 11:44:42PM -0500, Greg Rundlett wrote:
> 
> Bottom line: get fslint to find and eliminate duplicate files on your system.
> 

Second the motion, fslint is a fantastic tool, been using it for
years.

in a similar vein, anyone who uses rsync or who wants to keep
an exact copy of a set of files sync'ed in two (or more)
different places look at "unison"

Its multi-platform and free, source available, don't know what
license it uses

http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bpierce/unison

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Re: GNHLUG in 2008, a retrospective by the numbers

2009-01-04 Thread jkinz
On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 05:59:02PM -0500, Ted Roche wrote:
> * James Fogg's Administrator in a Box (DLSLUG, 17),

Hey that one looks really interesting. I see it was back in
August?   

I looked at the GNHLUG notes page here:
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.gnhlug/15148

Are there any materials around from his presentation? 

James if you are on this list I would be very interested in 
looking at any notes or slides from this presentation.

Thanks, Jeff Kinz.

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Re: [gnhlug-jobs] boot HDD into RDP client

2008-12-08 Thread jkinz
On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 01:09:08PM -0500, Pam McLeod wrote:
> I'm with a K-12 school district in the Lakes Region and am looking
> for an independent consultant who might be able to spend a few hours
> converting an old PC into a thin client.  Glen Page referred me to
> this group.
>
> I would prefer a small, thin distro which will boot right up into an
> RDP client - that's really all I want it to do.  I've been playing
> with Thinstation for awhile, which seemed perfect for my needs, but
> can't get it working on these PCs (Compaq Deskpro EX 933 w/ 128MB
> RAM).  The machines are pre-PXE.  This is taking too much time away
> from the rest of my projects.
>
> I'm not particularly attached to Thinstation if you've something else
> which does exactly the same thing.
>
> Please get in touch if you're interested in this project and I'll give
> you more details.

Hi Pam, I've done some stuff like that in the past using the
software from LTSP.org. 

To turn your PC into a thin client, these bootrom enabled ethernet
cards may help: 
http://www.disklessworkstations.com/cgi-bin/web/13.html?id=5XKzdgF9

Those cards add PXE capacity to your PC.

They also have these, but I've never used them ($17 vs $30 )

Its no coincidence that the lead architect for LTSP happens to be
from disklessworkstations.com. 

Just about anyone can install those cards in your PC.


email me if you have any questions.  :)

Jeff Kinz




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Re: 1/14 Centralug Meeting POSTPONED

2003-01-13 Thread jkinz
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 07:09:30PM -0500, Ben Boulanger wrote:
> Hello all,
>   The Centralug Meeting scheduled for tomorrow, 1/14, needs to be
> postponed.  I've come down with some stomach bug (flu, probably) and
> will not be able to present.  If anyone else would like to present, the
> meeting place is reserved and paid for - all you'd have to do is get the
> key from me.

Hi Ben,
Sorry to hear it, hope your up and about very soon.


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Re: Book on samba

2002-11-05 Thread jkinz
On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 09:35:59AM -0500, Steven W. Orr wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Nov 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> =>On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 08:26:31AM -0500, Mark Glassberg wrote:
> =>> I need to recommend an entry level book on samba.  Any suggestions,
> =>> positive or negative, would be appreciated.
> =>> 
> =>As always - the O'Reilly books have an excellent reference.
> =>And Bookpool.com usually has the lowest prices.
> =>38% off in this case.
> =>
> =>http://www.bookpool.com/.x/ef5ocrv20i/sm/1565924495
> 
> Another excellent book is Linux Samba Server Admin by Roderick W. Smith 
> (Craig Hunt Linux Library). Also 39% off at bookpool.
> 
> When there's a Hunt book to choose over O'Reilly I *usually* do much 
> better.

I notice that the table of contents of the Sybex Samba book is almost 
an exact copy of of the the O'Reilly Samba book.  

The O'Reilly Samba book has been adopted by the Samba development 
group as the offical Samba book.  Its also cheaper and you can preview
the entire book on-line.   O'Reilly $21.50, Sybex $24.50

My experience with Sybex books over the years is that you pay a lot,
you get a lot of paper, but little information.  In the past the ones
I have seen tended towards the "See Dick run. Run, Dick, run." approach
to documentation.  I.e.  Lots of space is used on screen shots and "Now
click on "X". type of information.  Sometimes that info is useful but
in my experience it makes it so hard to find out anything useful that I
have written off Sybex books as a waste of time.  (They may have changed,
nothing stays the same forever, expecially in a competitive market.)

I would like a chance to preview the contents of the Sybex book just
to give it a fairer evaluation.  Anybody know if some sample chapters
are online somewhere?   (O'Reilly does this for all their books at the
"ora.com" website.)

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Re: Book on samba

2002-11-05 Thread jkinz
On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 08:26:31AM -0500, Mark Glassberg wrote:
> I need to recommend an entry level book on samba.  Any suggestions,
> positive or negative, would be appreciated.
> ___
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> 
As always - the O'Reilly books have an excellent reference.
And Bookpool.com usually has the lowest prices.
38% off in this case.

http://www.bookpool.com/.x/ef5ocrv20i/sm/1565924495

"Google and O'Reilly - words to compute by"

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Re: Red Hat's Bluecurve (was: Red Hat 8.0 is 'official')

2002-10-05 Thread jkinz

On Sat, Oct 05, 2002 at 07:54:03PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Guys, I just did an upgrade of my system here at home to 8.0 and boy do I 
> regret it. Absolutely nothing works and I have no idea why. I consider 
> myself to be pretty good at this too. So after 3 hours of fucking around, 
> I gave up and went for a reload. It sort of works now in a very crippled 
> state. My iptables firewall is no longer functional and I have a band-aid 
> one set up using their lokkit util. I tried to build a kernel and I'm 
> getting syntax errors as well as a ton of new warnings associated with the 
> new gcc; so bad that I can barely figure out what's going on. And the 
> Bluecurve thing? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out just how dumb 
> you have to be to like it. Push the browser button and you get mozilla, 
> but there's nothing to tell you that you'd get mozilla if you push it. :-(

I have always, by accident rather then by dint of planning, moved from 
N.1 or N.2 to N+1.1 so I have yet to experience a RH N.0 release.

Are all of RH N.0 release typically accompanied by more problems then 
the N.1 or N.2 releases ?

Is RH duplicating the problems automobile manufacturers have whenever
they bring out a new car model?  The more they change the more that 
is broken?

I'm wondering because I was just considering a move from 7.2 to
8.0 when I started hearing about 8.0 probs and it seemed to a higher
level of severity than I've heard before.

As a rule of thumb - don't dot oh ?


-- 
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Re: 100 Base T full duplex.

2002-10-01 Thread jkinz

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 11:21:46AM -0400, Ganesan M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>   Do I have to recompile the kernel to use 100 Base T full duplex on Red Hat
> 7.3 and kernel version 2.4.7-10enterprise machine or is it already enabled?
> 
>   Can someone please tell me how do I setup the network for full duplex and
> 100 Base T?
> 

Hi Gan,
I'm not sure you have to do anything. 
(Maybe I don't understand the full issue :-) )

I'm running RH 7.2.  All I had to do to upgrade to 100 Base T was change the
ethernet switch I was using.  My card was already 10/100 so when I plugged it
into the my new switch it changed over itself.  


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Re: sorta OT: company names

2002-09-20 Thread jkinz

On Fri, Sep 20, 2002 at 01:39:00PM -0400, Erik Price wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This question isn't really related to Linux or Unix specifically, but 
> I'll ask anyway since I know there are some experienced developers on 
> this list.
> 
> I am writing a small chunk of software (in Java) that I intend to 
> release on Freshmeat when I have a beta.  I don't have a "company" name 
> registered in whatever organization keeps track of company names, but 
> I'd like to use one (even though it's just me hacking in my spare time, 
> not-for-profit).  This is especially significant given that I would use 
> the name in the software package name, eg 
> "com.MyCompany.MyApplicationPackage".  However, the name that I want to 
> use was taken by another company about 7 years ago, but I am fairly 
> certain it longer exists -- there are only 19 hits on Google in 
> reference to the name, and of those, only a few actually related to the 
> company.  They do not have a web site, nor can I find any contact 
> information about them.  A Wired article indicates that this company 
> was based out of someone's apartment in New York, whereas I live in 
> Mass.
> 
> I'm wondering if it's legal to just appropriate the name for my own 
> use.  I'd guess not, but then I wonder how many diners out there are 
> named "Classic Diner" or what have you.  Furthermore, I have the domain 
> name already.  What are the (legal) steps to take so that you can put 
> "Copyright 2002 My Company" on your software?

I'll Second Ray's advice about filing as a DBA.  You can even have duplicate
company names within the same state as long as they can be distinguished by
a town name.  

One option that is slightly better than a DBA but much cheaper than a
corporation is a "LLC".  "Limited Liability Corporation"  can shelter
your personal property

from any liabilities created by your business.  Being a DBA sole
proprietor makes all your personal property vulnerable to liabilities
created by your business.

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Re: Are American high tech workers obsolete?

2002-08-13 Thread jkinz

On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 11:17:02AM -0400, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> When the economy was in good shape, H1-B was used to fill in for positions 
> that were not being filled. Very similar to the need to migrant workers in 
> the Southwest. When the economy went sour, companies found that the foreign 
> workers (mostly from India) were cheaper. 
> Much of the displacement has been in system administration. 

Hi Jerry, Did you mean that H1-B persons were displacing Sysadmins or 
that Sysadmin positions were being moved offshore ?

I'm asking because what I have seen is that Sysadmin postions are staying
here in the States (in reduced numbers of course), and software development,
software maintenance, customer support functions are being moved offshore.


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Re: Are American high tech workers obsolete?

2002-08-13 Thread jkinz



On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 10:34:24AM -0400, Hewitt Tech wrote:
[[[some lines chopped out of the original to shorten this post
> 
> Like a lot of folks leaving a big computer company I have noted the extent
> to which American companies have been replacing domestic workers with H1-B
> program employees or simply shipping the jobs off-shore. Last night I
> watched a segment on "The News Hour" (PBS) which featured a conversation
> with Thomas Friedman who had just returned from a trip to Sri Lanka and the
> Indian sub-continent. Tom described the extent of the success of Indian
> companies at both out sourcing and setting up call centers for large
> American companies. He cited Dell, American Express, GE amongst others who
> had moved their call centers to India. I also have friends working at major
> 
> maddog in his "Front Porch" interview mentioned that a bullet item in his
> standard Linux presentation describes the adoption of Linux as 'inevitable'.
> Can we say the same about domestic high tech jobs moving out of this
> country? We have already moved most manufacturing to China and other low
> labor cost countries. The powers that be have been telling America's young
> people that they should look to their future in the "knowledge industry". Is
> there any point in them spending 100's of thousands for an education in
> Computer Science? Will we all be saying "Do you want fries with that?" and
> if so, who will be the consumers that the nation's economy depends on?
> 
> I'd like to hear a discusion. It's been my experience that many if not most
> engineers are just slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun in terms of their
> politics. They seem to take a "Survival of the fittest" approach to these
> problems. The idea of labor unions (and I know there are plenty of arguments
> against them) are heretical to them. Thoughts?
> 

Hi Alex:
I would re-phrase your subject line a little.  American tech workers aren't 
obsolete, they are just much higher priced than similar and less mature 
(read "slightly less capable sometimes") talent pools available in other
parts of the world.

Is the moving of American Hi-tech jobs offshore inevitable ? Sadly Yes.

I saw figures indicating that the costs associated with employing India
based and China based engineers were one fifth and one tenth respectively
of the cost for employing an American engineer.  Note this is the
"burdened cost" which includes all benefits, office space, utilities,
administration etc.  This is not a one for one comparison of salaries.

It is much easier and cheaper to create a software engineering plant 
than it is to create a manufacturing plant. Compare the cost of desks, 
phones, and some PC's to building manufacturing infrastructure and 
importing processing equipment. 

The emigration of tech jobs is not only inevitable, it will happen even 
faster than manufacturing jobs are being exported.

Now any ideas on how American engineers can compete in this type of market ?


-- 
Jeff Kinz, Director, Emergent Research,  Hudson, MA.  "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 
copyright 1995-2002.  Use restricted to non-UCE uses. Any other use is an 
acceptance of the offer at http://www.ultranet.com/~jkinz/policy.html.
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