Re: META, [OT] namelessness WAS: Re: [OT] noise (was: Petition against OOXML)
On Jul 10, 2007, at 14:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > And I am not my name. I am who I am, right here and right now. Carbon isn't really 'carbon' either, it just makes chemistry a heck of a lot easier not having to call out all the relative string vibration modes each time you get to that arrangement in a compound. - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
META, [OT] namelessness WAS: Re: [OT] noise (was: Petition against OOXML)
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:33:20 -0400
> From: "Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [OT] noise (was: Petition against OOXML)
>
> On 7/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Actually, that used to be my name, but is no longer.
>
> So what do we call you? "The account formerly known as Dave Montenegro"?
I, personally, don't feel a need to name myself anything. I am not my
job. I'm not where I went to college. I'm not the town I live in.
And I am not my name. I am who I am, right here and right now.
Everything else is just a distraction ("noise" as you so aptly put it)
obscuring who it is I really am. It's a Zen thing. (spelled with a Z)
If you REALLY need to call me something, you can call me
(LAMBDA (&rest args) (apply 'DAVE-MONTENEGRO args))
though "hey you" generally works just as well. :)
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:11:30 -0400
> From: "Tom Buskey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: The "cent key"
> I don't remember if the Apple ][ had @. It had " above the 2 key.
>
> Now if we can get the location of the ~ and ESC keys standardized. Yes, I
> work on a variety of keyboards :-( Esp. laptops.
Threads like this one on the cent key - consisting of lots of short,
curious, posts - really make me wish we had a #gnhlug on freenode or
something.
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:02:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Lori Nagel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Summer BBQ sign-ups...
> I think maybe it is getting lost in all the other email on the
> discuss list. I have to delete most of it because if I spent all my
> time reading that, I wouldn't have time for anything else. Maybe
> the discuss list should actually be made into more than one list?
This is a commonly recurring point. Perhaps we could (not suggesting
that we necessarily SHOULD... but that we COULD) move the gnhlug
mailing lists into a newsgroup heirarchy and/or IRC channel...
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.org
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.admin
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.jobs
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.jobs.announce
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.jobs.discuss
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.irc# log of all the bantering on #gnhlug
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.news
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.help
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.proposals
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.proposals.technology
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.proposals.business
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.surveys
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.politics
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.politics.advocacy
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.linux.humor
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.scifi
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.humor
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.politics
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.politics.advocacy
sci.comp.linux.lugs.gnhlug.discuss.ben
etc
Then bind each newsgroup in the heirarchy to a correspondingly named
mailing list so that posts to one propagate to the other. That way,
subscribers could receive/filter just what interests them.
> > Though I'm aware how easy it often is to nudge a thread totally
> > off-topic on this list, it wasn't my intent to hijack this one.
>
> Right, you just wanted to post about something completely unrelated. ;-)
No, my comment was highly relevant to the OP on anti-OOXML advocacy.
So was Ted Roche's well thought-out followup to it.
> Doesn't have anything to do with the thread, though, so that makes it
> off-topic (for the thread). Likewise your own remarks. Nothing
That seems to depend whether you're reffering to being off-topic for
the list or off-topic for a given thread. What does it really mean to
be "on-topic" for a thread? Remember that threads aren't static.
They are constantly changing and morphing as they grow. They are
dynamic entities. Taking that line of thought to its logical
conclusion, threads shouldn't have static names. So perhaps threads,
too, should be nameless. :)
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[OT] noise (was: Petition against OOXML)
On 7/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Actually, that used to be my name, but is no longer. So what do we call you? "The account formerly known as Dave Montenegro"? > I am nobody. HEY! WAIT! That account is on my computer! You hacked my system!! ;-) > Though I'm aware how easy it often is to nudge a thread totally > off-topic on this list, it wasn't my intent to hijack this one. Right, you just wanted to post about something completely unrelated. ;-) > I was, as mentioned in my OP, just adding my POV on advocacy. I'm for/against gun-control/gay-marriage/abortion/cracking-eggs-at-the-big-end. Doesn't have anything to do with the thread, though, so that makes it off-topic (for the thread). Likewise your own remarks. Nothing personal. I actually found your remarks kinda interesting. But still off-topic. :-) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
> Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:17:18 -0400 > From: "Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On 7/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> ISO should do better. > > > > ... I believe it would be a better use of Linux activists' time and > > resources to be petitioning the FCC ... > > ... Why isn't there a cent key on the IMB keyboard?? > > And the award for "Best Threadjacking" goes to... Dave Montenegro! > > ;-) Actually, that used to be my name, but is no longer. I'm now nameless. About a month ago, I renounced my given name in favor of my true identity. I am nobody. I am everything. I am emptiness. Though I'm aware how easy it often is to nudge a thread totally off-topic on this list, it wasn't my intent to hijack this one. I was, as mentioned in my OP, just adding my POV on advocacy. But watching the thread go from OOXML to Baudot code... two codes literally worlds apart... I'll accept that prize. :) > [1] Apologies to Dave Barry.[2] > [2] http://sonic.net/~roelofs/humor/cybermuffin.html > [3] Third? Shouldn't it be fourth?[4] > [4] Shift. Control. Alt. > [5] i.e., non-ASCII [7] > [6] "I am not a number! I am a free man!" > [7] i.e., Unicode, HTML character entities, etc. > [8] "Super" being the traditional fourth modifier.[9] > [9] http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html What's French for "I'm dizzy, now"? (no, I'm not seriously asking for five translations! /me imagines this thread's future... OOXML -> Baudot -> French -> Lojban ;) ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
On 7/8/07, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> http://www.noooxml.org/delegations > > ... right side is grayed out in Firefox. A cursory glance makes me think it might be a sizing assumption issue to me. As long as my browser window is at least 1180 pixels wide, it looks fine; if I make it narrower, the gray "off-paper background" starts to spill into the "paper". "This page best viewed on the author's computer." (Firefox 2.0.0.4 on Fedora 6.) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
On 7/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> ISO should do better. > > ... I believe it would be a better use of Linux activists' time and > resources to be petitioning the FCC ... > ... Why isn't there a cent key on the IMB keyboard?? And the award for "Best Threadjacking" goes to... Dave Montenegro! ;-) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
Thomas Charron wrote: > > Looks fine under IE7 and FF 2.0.0.7 here. > And IE6 and FF 1.5.0.12 here... -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
On 7/8/07, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For those of us in the US, ANSI [2] is the organization you'll want to > > contact. > > [1] http://www.noooxml.org/delegations > Interesting... did anyone else notice that this site doesn't display the > same in IE or Firefox? As a matter-of-fact, it looks a little goofy in each > on my XP system! Top is goofy in IE and right side is grayed out in > Firefox. Looks fine under IE7 and FF 2.0.0.7 here. -- -- Thomas ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
Tech Writer wrote: > > Interesting... did anyone else notice that this site doesn't display > the same in IE or Firefox? As a matter-of-fact, it looks a little goofy > in each on my XP system! Top is goofy in IE and right side is grayed > out in Firefox. > Peg: Generally speaking, readers of this mailing list are less likely to be using IE. It does validated as XHTML 1.0 (http://validator.w3.org/), though the source does have quite a bit of Javascript and CSS, also. What version of FireFox are you using? Looks fine in 1.5.0.12. Have you got ad-blockers or javascript-denying plug-ins, perhaps? -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
> > For those of us in the US, ANSI [2] is the organization you'll want to > contact. > > [1] http://www.noooxml.org/delegations > Interesting... did anyone else notice that this site doesn't display the same in IE or Firefox? As a matter-of-fact, it looks a little goofy in each on my XP system! Top is goofy in IE and right side is grayed out in Firefox. Peg ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > This may be true. However, I believe it would be a better use of > Linux activists' time and resources to be petitioning the FCC to keep > the OTA TV spectrum in the hands of the people. I respect your right to your opinion. You are welcome to lay out your arguments and presentation here, or perhaps more appropriately in your own thread. I, for one, think establishing rational standards for office document interchange is more relevant to what I do with free and open source software than the discussions on US spectrum policy, which I agree is a bad thing. But my opinions on spectrum use, misuse of copyright and DRM are (just imo) more political issues than FOSS issues, though I do take them up with my congressmen when opportunity allows. > Now you have my $.02. (Why isn't there a cent key on the IMB keyboard??) Well, there you go, another standard gone awry. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
> > This may be true. However, I believe it would be a better use of > Linux activists' time and resources to be petitioning the FCC to keep > the OTA TV spectrum in the hands of the people. How much of an evil > would a closed open document standard really be if we pass up the > opportunity to have nation-wide ubiquitious WiFi? I think that both issues are important, but probably all computer people would petition for the OTA spectrum issue, including Microsoft and FOSS users. The OOXML/ISO issue is something that Microsoft users would be less likely to petition against, and therefore it is more important for FOSS activists to petition for that, IMHO. > > Now you have my $.02. (Why isn't there a cent key on the IMB keyboard??) I think that Microsoft removed it when they were designing the computer keyboardthen it became a defacto standardthen ISO standardized it. All of this happened right after Microsoft changed the Gregorian calendar.* md *I am kidding folksit is a joke. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
Tech Writer wrote: > This web page also contains the note: > > IT IS URGENT THAT YOU CONTACT YOUR STANDARDISATION BODY IN YOUR COUNTRY > AND EXPLAIN THEM WHY OOXML IS BROKEN; SENDING A NICE LETTER TO YOUR > STANDARDISATION BODY IN YOUR COUNTRY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SIGNING THE > PETITION > > Is this really useful? If so, does anyone have a name and address that > a letter could be sent to? > Peg: Online petitions are certainly of questionable value. However, the site does list the organizations for each country - in the "Delegations" link [1] over on the left pane. There's also a section on "Submissions" and "How to Communicate" that offers some pointers in making your comment have the greatest effect. For those of us in the US, ANSI [2] is the organization you'll want to contact. [1] http://www.noooxml.org/delegations [2] http://www.ansi.org/contact_us/contact_us.aspx?menuid=contact -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:43:54 -0400 > From: Ted Roche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Bill McGonigle blogged [1]: > [1] > http://blog.bfccomputing.com/articles/2007/06/25/sign-petition-against-ooxml > > [2] http://www.noooxml.org/petition > > The Microsoft document is no standard. It has blocks of property > descriptions that don't explain what they are nor how they are used. > There are no implementations of what's documented, likely not even from > Microsoft. There's no way to independently implement what's described in > the document without running afoul of licensing and patent-infringement > issues. > > ISO should do better. This may be true. However, I believe it would be a better use of Linux activists' time and resources to be petitioning the FCC to keep the OTA TV spectrum in the hands of the people. How much of an evil would a closed open document standard really be if we pass up the opportunity to have nation-wide ubiquitious WiFi? Now you have my $.02. (Why isn't there a cent key on the IMB keyboard??) ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
> I think online petitions are overrated as a tool for grassroots > movement- first and foremost, because they can't be trusted due to > the ease of astroturfing. Microsoft could easily build a "petition" > and have millions of its "happy customers" "sign" it- a short macro > running on their WGA database would do the trick. I agree, Snopes actually has a good writeup about online petitions. http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Petition against OOXML
I think online petitions are overrated as a tool for grassroots
movement- first and foremost, because they can't be trusted due to
the ease of astroturfing. Microsoft could easily build a "petition"
and have millions of its "happy customers" "sign" it- a short macro
running on their WGA database would do the trick.
Secondly, I think they are pointless because you have no idea if
people bothered to do their homework. In the pre-Internet days people
actually put their name to paper, and that meant so much more than
putting your email address in a textbox and pressing a button. Not to
mention the fact that this type of petition will have thousands of
Linux fanboys sign it, without even looking for a good reason to do
so.
Not having much time, I've taken a brief look at the issue at hand
(see below), and decided that I'll both sign the petition (only after
giving it a good reading) and write a few letters as suggested. I
haven't found a good place to start, but that's next on the list (I
figure getting others to write several letters is more important than
myself writing one).
My case: (please feel free to ignore the rest if you have already
studied the OOXML issue or couldn't care less about me)
I've taken a quick look at the documents provided on ECMA, and was
completely overwhelmed. It's over 6000 pages long, which is a
terrible thing for a standard due to the sheer difficulty of someone
trying to properly implement it. A very fast scrolling didn't raise
any flags, but I didn't expect anything to just pop out at me.
Then I searched for some actual reasons not to go with OOXML. Two
pages I found of interest were on GrokDoc and Wikipedia (though I
don't consider Wikipedia as a secondary source):
http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenDocument_and_Office_Open_XML_formats
I took a look at two issues that struck me as strange- the year 1900
date system and the numerous references to Microsoft's Office suite.
Both have no reason to appear in a document. First, the year 1900 is
an old problem said to date back to Lotus 1-2-3, where the year 1900
was incorrectly implemented as a leap year. Microsoft saved the bug,
implementing Excel to treat dates prior to than as invalid. And
stating the obvious- other than providing for historic context, the
words "Microsoft", "Office", "Word", "Excel" and the like should not
appear in a standards document- they don't belong. But they do, over
and over. In attribute names, in technical decisions and glaringly in
the stated objective of OOXML in the Introduction section ("The goal
is to ..., all in a way that is fully compatible with the large
existing investments in Microsoft Office documents."). I can
understand that there's a need for a converter to be built, but we
already have plenty of Word-to-HTML and Word-to-PDF converters. A
standard is about creating a common way to implement something. OOXML
is not- it's a way of trying to hold on to a terrible implementation
already in place- that of Microsoft's existing office documents.
That's my two cents. Find your own problems with OOXML and provide
officials with your own viewpoint on the matter. A petition only
truly reflects one person, no matter how many people jump on the
bandwagon- they just "me too-ed" and didn't care enough to show that
they took it personally.
Michael
On 7/8/07, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This web page also contains the note:
>
> IT IS URGENT THAT YOU CONTACT YOUR STANDARDISATION BODY IN YOUR COUNTRY AND
> EXPLAIN THEM WHY OOXML IS BROKEN; SENDING A NICE LETTER TO YOUR
> STANDARDISATION BODY IN YOUR COUNTRY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SIGNING THE
> PETITION
>
> Is this really useful? If so, does anyone have a name and address that a
> letter could be sent to?
>
> Peg
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Re: Petition against OOXML
This web page also contains the note: IT IS URGENT THAT YOU CONTACT YOUR STANDARDISATION BODY IN YOUR COUNTRY AND EXPLAIN THEM WHY OOXML IS BROKEN; SENDING A NICE LETTER TO YOUR STANDARDISATION BODY IN YOUR COUNTRY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SIGNING THE PETITION Is this really useful? If so, does anyone have a name and address that a letter could be sent to? Peg - Original Message - From: "Ted Roche" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Greater NH Linux User Group" Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 9:43 AM Subject: Petition against OOXML > Bill McGonigle blogged [1]: > > "You can sign a petition here [2] asking the national representatives to > ISO to not approve Microsoft's OpenOfficeXML (nothing to do with > OpenOffice, of course - just named to seed confusion) application for > standards-approval by ISO. The most absurd part of the standard is that > parts of it are secret, so it’s not even a standard at all. The Open > Office Open Document Format is a much better standard, which is free to > read and free to implement, and covers the needs of office applications. > This is why everybody, including Microsoft, is embracing or at least > implementing ODF readers and writers. ODF is already an ISO Standard and > it meets the basic criteria for a standard." > > [1] > http://blog.bfccomputing.com/articles/2007/06/25/sign-petition-against-ooxml > > [2] http://www.noooxml.org/petition > > The Microsoft document is no standard. It has blocks of property > descriptions that don't explain what they are nor how they are used. > There are no implementations of what's documented, likely not even from > Microsoft. There's no way to independently implement what's described in > the document without running afoul of licensing and patent-infringement > issues. > > ISO should do better. > ___ > gnhlug-discuss mailing list > gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ > ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Petition against OOXML
Bill McGonigle blogged [1]: "You can sign a petition here [2] asking the national representatives to ISO to not approve Microsoft's OpenOfficeXML (nothing to do with OpenOffice, of course - just named to seed confusion) application for standards-approval by ISO. The most absurd part of the standard is that parts of it are secret, so it’s not even a standard at all. The Open Office Open Document Format is a much better standard, which is free to read and free to implement, and covers the needs of office applications. This is why everybody, including Microsoft, is embracing or at least implementing ODF readers and writers. ODF is already an ISO Standard and it meets the basic criteria for a standard." [1] http://blog.bfccomputing.com/articles/2007/06/25/sign-petition-against-ooxml [2] http://www.noooxml.org/petition The Microsoft document is no standard. It has blocks of property descriptions that don't explain what they are nor how they are used. There are no implementations of what's documented, likely not even from Microsoft. There's no way to independently implement what's described in the document without running afoul of licensing and patent-infringement issues. ISO should do better. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
