Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
This has to be the all-time most inane discussion to ever occur on this list. Which is saying something. :-) On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, at 4:16pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My preferences actually come from spending a lot of time at a model 35 > teletype. I think that has more to do with it then anything else. For example, the first computer that *I* spent a lot of time on was a Tandy 1000 SL. Although it was an 8088, its keyboard used an AT-style 101-key layout. My fingers are now permanently wired to expect the CTRL and ALT keys to the left and right of the spacebar. I also never learned to touch-type "properly". I use a completely unique scheme I call "accelerated hunt-and-peck". I basically type letters with my two index fingers, and use my thumbs and other fingers for other keys. I suspect if I actually used the "real" touch-type method, with all eight fingers centered on the home row, I would care more about having the CTRL key easily reached by my left pinky. I also don't use CAPS LOCK much, but as I have very little cause to ever type in all capitals, that does not mean anything. We now return to your regularly scheduled pointless drivel. Oh, wait. This *was* your regularly scheduled pointless drivel. :-) -- Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
In a message dated: 31 Jul 2003 20:45:43 EDT Kevin D. Clark said: >Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> I think in the end it's just a matter of what you're used to. I >> don't think a clear argument can be made that one or the other is >> better. > >Agreed. It's a matter of personal preference. And really, what's the big deal. If you want you Control key next to the 'A' key, remap it. I do this in my Xserver on my personal systems, and I keep an xmodmap shell script in my homedir called swap-caps for any shared environment I'm in. Works on all X-based systems. I run it once to move the caps lock key out of the way, then run it again to put it back before I leave :) -- Seeya, Paul It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
"Tilly, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I think the reason many techies hate the capslock key can be summed up in three > letters: A O L Yes, but [EMAIL PROTECTED] was pretty funny in his time. Regards, --kevin -- Kevin D. Clark / Cetacean Networks / Portsmouth, N.H. (USA) cetaceannetworks.com!kclark (GnuPG ID: B280F24E) alumni.unh.edu!kdc ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 11:46:12AM -0400, Kevin D. Clark wrote: > > If you want to use your caps lock key, use it. Myself and other > > people think that it is a useless key. [snip] > But why hate it? Remember, I said that I found the key to be useless, not that I hate it. I even use the key occasionally, to see if my fingers can send my brain a mesage in Morse Code. I rarely use the cursor keys either -- for a long time I accessed computers over low-speed modems, with lots of line noise. In emacs and shells I use things like C-n and M-f, and in vi I use "hjkl" and other commands. In not using the cursor keys, I avoided inserting a lot of garbage into my code. Call me an old-timer, but this works for me. [snip] > Speaking for myself, I use the ctrl key on PC keyboards often, and > have no problems with cramping. Of course, in contrast to Bob's > comment about being very large, I'm short and have small hands, > which may account for that. My pinky has to contort less to make use > of it in its location on a PC keyboard. Maybe it's an emacs thing. All of the emacs users that I know want the control key next to the 'a' on a QWERTY keyboard. Even Windows/Emacs programmers that I know do this. > I think in the end it's just a matter of what you're used to. I > don't think a clear argument can be made that one or the other is > better. Agreed. It's a matter of personal preference. Regards, --kevin -- Kevin D. Clark / Cetacean Networks / Portsmouth, N.H. (USA) cetaceannetworks.com!kclark (GnuPG ID: B280F24E) alumni.unh.edu!kdc ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Derek Martin writes: > I would also point out that a PC-style keyboard is closer to a manual > typewriter keyboard, which has been around MUCH longer than Sun > workstations have. Which is no doubt why it was designed that way... > I'm inclined to think that those who hate capslock, and who prefer sun > keyboards, either learned to type on Suns, or never learned at all. I learned on an Underwood. I'll have to agree that Caps-Lock made a lot more sense when it took 5 or more pounds of force to hold down the shift key. Still, IIRC, the shift keys were in the same row as the space bar (more leverage), and shift lock (it wasn't really caps lock) was in the zxcvb row, so typewriter keyboards have morphed too. But, yeah, the PC keyboards, other than the original few, seem to be partially an attempt to be comfortable for former Selectric users. My preferences actually come from spending a lot of time at a model 35 teletype. The Sun guys were just trying to satisfy guys like me. It seems to me that, even when not using emacs, I need the control key a whole lot more often than I type three uppercase letters in a row. Probably because I do make an effort to know the most commonly useful shortcuts, rather than doing everything with a mouse. But I accept that the key layout battle has long been lost. Bill ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Bill Freeman wrote: Then the very next keystroke that you should learn is "C-H K", which runs describe-key, which prompts for a key (combinatione), and displays the on line documentation for the command bound to the key. That's awesome! Thanks! Some initial playing with this command seems to indicate that a lot of the keystroke commands are really shortcuts for "interactive compiled Lisp functions". I didn't know that. Looking forward to getting some more time to learn more of these. Erik ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Erik Price writes: > I like emacs too, and use it whenever I'm logged into a server w/ssh, > but I don't think I know it too well -- I have no idea what those > keystrokes do!! ;) Then the very next keystroke that you should learn is "C-H K", which runs describe-key, which prompts for a key (combinatione), and displays the on line documentation for the command bound to the key. Bill ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
RE: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
I think the reason many techies hate the capslock key can be summed up in three letters: A O L I never had anything against in until the cyclic floods of new AOL users showed up (for example, every December when another wave of people got their first computer). It only takes a few messages TYPED IN REALLY OBNOXIOUS CAPS MODE to cause hatred to be directed as much at the innocent key as the service and newbie themselves. <.02> -Lawrence -Original Message- From: Derek Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement) -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 11:46:12AM -0400, Kevin D. Clark wrote: > If you want to use your caps lock key, use it. Myself and other > people think that it is a useless key. True enough. But I'm surprised by how much some techies seem to view that key with disdain or even unadulterated hate... ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 09:58:51AM -0400, Kevin D. Clark wrote: > > > So I guess that what we're saying is that people who don't use > > > emacs need Caps-Lock, because their editors are toys? (For the humor > > > impaired: :^) ) > > > > (-: I guess that the vi folks could use "%" and "~". But I like > > the emacs M-l, M-u, and M-c keys a lot better than vi's "~" key. > > I use vim, and I'm aware that it has such features, but I'm sorry, I > can't see how punching capslock once when you start typing caps and a > second time when you're done isn't less work than all those other key > combinations. It's more efficient, and easier to remember too. If you want to use your caps lock key, use it. Myself and other people think that it is a useless key. > I would also point out that a PC-style keyboard is closer to a manual > typewriter keyboard, which has been around MUCH longer than Sun > workstations have. Which is no doubt why it was designed that way... I guess that the keyboards I "learned to type" on were more oriented towards technical people and programmers using them, rather than business folks. As such, the designers of these keyboards put the control key in a useful spot, somewhere you could constantly use it without your hand cramping up. But the PC keyboard probably wasn't designed for people like me. Oh well. > I'm inclined to think that those who hate capslock, and who prefer sun > keyboards, either learned to type on Suns, or never learned at all. I can only recall one (non-PC) terminal in my past that had the left control key somewhere other than next to the 'a' on a qwerty keyboard. It was a Data-General terminal, that's all I can remember. I didn't touch a Sun until I got my first Real Job, BTW. Oh, it's true that I never learned to type, either. Taking shop classes seemed a lot more interesting. The fact that I can't really type doesn't seem to prevent me from belting out a lot of code. Regards, --kevin -- Kevin D. Clark / Cetacean Networks / Portsmouth, N.H. (USA) cetaceannetworks.com!kclark (GnuPG ID: B280F24E) alumni.unh.edu!kdc ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Bob Bell wrote: And I actually don't see the big deal using your left pinky to hold down the shift key while you type. Granted, the sample line had a LOT of upper-case characters, and hitting caps-lock may be simpler, but I tried it both ways and holding down shift didn't really seem to slow me down noticeably. Maybe it's because I'm 6'8" and have huge hands... I hear you on the big hands front, but the reason I like caps lock is because I use the right-side shift key for any capitalized letters that need to be typed with the left hand, and the left-side shift key for capitalized letters that need to be typed with the right hand, so I can't just hold down one shift key (per the habit drilled into me by typing class in highschool) -- I'd have to switch sides every time I typed a key that was on the opposite side of the keyboard. This practice does cause the least strain on the fingers (because that way you are only extending the pinky of the hand that is not simultaneously reaching for another key with another finger). ;) Erik ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 11:18:43AM -0400, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I use vim, and I'm aware that it has such features, but I'm sorry, I can't see how punching capslock once when you start typing caps and a second time when you're done isn't less work than all those other key combinations. It's more efficient, and easier to remember too. And I actually don't see the big deal using your left pinky to hold down the shift key while you type. Granted, the sample line had a LOT of upper-case characters, and hitting caps-lock may be simpler, but I tried it both ways and holding down shift didn't really seem to slow me down noticeably. Maybe it's because I'm 6'8" and have huge hands... -- Bob Bell ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:15:09 EDT Erik Price said: I like emacs too, and use it whenever I'm logged into a server w/ssh, but I don't think I know it too well -- I have no idea what those keystrokes do!! ;) You should spend some time using the Emacs tutorial: C-h t should get you there. Thanks for the tip Paul, but I did it a couple years ago. It is the single reason why I am addicted to emacs keybindings and have to reconfigure every editor I try to use them (and why I can't use vi very well). I [think I] know pretty much all the key commands featured in this tutorial, like C-G and C-B etc, but IIRC it doesn't go into these more advanced commands very far, and I've never really had the opportunity to hone them. I have been meaning to spend more time learning Objective-C, and brush up on my C programming. I vowed to use emacs when I do, simply to force myself to learn a lot of these shortcuts and tips. (Of all the editors or IDEs I've used [not very many], emacs and vi seem most ideal for C programming.) Erik ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
In a message dated: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:15:09 EDT Erik Price said: >I like emacs too, and use it whenever I'm logged into a server w/ssh, >but I don't think I know it too well -- I have no idea what those >keystrokes do!! ;) You should spend some time using the Emacs tutorial: C-h t should get you there. -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Derek Martin wrote: | I would also point out that a PC-style keyboard is closer to a manual | typewriter keyboard, which has been around MUCH longer than Sun | workstations have. Which is no doubt why it was designed that way... | I'm inclined to think that those who hate capslock, and who prefer sun | keyboards, either learned to type on Suns, or never learned at all. | I learned on an Apple ][. IIRC: No caps lock. No shift key (unless you did the shiftkey mod). The control key was to the left of A. " was over the 2 key. Lots of wierd keyboards in those days, some good, some bad. - - EMACS == Esc Meta Alt Control Shift -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/KTVX2qRYRRBv/+IRAkVuAKCvpPZTdMwZ+b++PxLYxShDvg1+UQCfctPF /sOoiDX3xoBLtxRC+jtUNH0= =fmry -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Kevin D. Clark wrote: BTW, as a side comment: I like emacs, and I respect the fact that other people like different editors. For me, it isn't so important that people use a certain editor, but it is important that they learn how to use it *well*. I like emacs too, and use it whenever I'm logged into a server w/ssh, but I don't think I know it too well -- I have no idea what those keystrokes do!! ;) Erik ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 09:38:08AM -0400, Bill Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin D. Clark writes: > > Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I have to agree. I can't fathom why so many techies/coders make such > > comments... How do you type > > > > open( LOGFILE, O_RDWR | O_EXCL | O_CREAT | O_NONBLOCK | O_NOCTTY | O_SYNC | O_NOFOLLOW, > > S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR | S_IRGRP | S_IWGRP ); > > > > without using CAPSLOCK? Only painfully, I would think... > > open( logfile, o_rdwr | o_excl | o_creat | o_nonblock | o_noctty | o_sync | o_nofollow, > s_irusr | s_iwusr | s_irgrp | s_iwgrp ); > C-p C-a M-f > > and then hold down the M-u key for a while. Or, in this particular case, after typing the semicolon (or at least the close parenthesis): C-@ C-M-B C-X C-U You may have to follow this with a space (or a "Y" or a "!") if C-X C-U is in its default disabled state. So I guess that what we're saying is that people who don't use emacs need Caps-Lock, because their editors are toys? (For the humor impaired: :^) ) ^W $U Or more equivalently: ?( U :-) -- Bob Bell ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: The lack of need for Caps-Lock (was laptop keyboard replacement)
Bill Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Or, in this particular case, after typing the semicolon (or at least > the close parenthesis): > > C-@ C-M-B C-X C-U > > You may have to follow this with a space (or a "Y" or a "!") if > C-X C-U is in its default disabled state. Oh, right, this is even better! > So I guess that what we're saying is that people who don't use > emacs need Caps-Lock, because their editors are toys? (For the humor > impaired: :^) ) (-: I guess that the vi folks could use "%" and "~". But I like the emacs M-l, M-u, and M-c keys a lot better than vi's "~" key. BTW, as a side comment: I like emacs, and I respect the fact that other people like different editors. For me, it isn't so important that people use a certain editor, but it is important that they learn how to use it *well*. Regards, --kevin -- Kevin D. Clark / Cetacean Networks / Portsmouth, N.H. (USA) cetaceannetworks.com!kclark (GnuPG ID: B280F24E) alumni.unh.edu!kdc ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
