Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM, F Wolff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote: What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable, in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes? This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible with a little bit of work. Using icon theme can also be unintrusive. However, it should be nice to make the logo better known, so that people can recognize it as another GNOME representation, not a fork or rebranding or casual customization. For example, the Gorilla theme is more associated with Ximian than the standard GNOME. We may have a new theme, but people may not treat it as GNOME. And it would look weird to use the new logo in promotion web sites and events. Some recognition at GNOME site would help retain the unity in activities. Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: New team for [Lao] ([lo]) as the subject
Dear Sir Anousack Please give the step to work in gnome because i will make plan for a small training for the volunteer Reeqard Os On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Christian Rose [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/29/08, Lao Ubuntu Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My name is Outhai SAIOUDOM. i'm trying to look for Lao team on Gnome but There is no team for Lao language is listed in GNOME I18n site and I would like to request for new team, I have a small team working with translating Ubuntu, some friends at National University of Laos and some volunteers. My Email is : [EMAIL PROTECTED] The url is a part of Lao Open Source ( Lao Ubuntu ) initiative at: http://www.laoubuntu.com Hi, could you perhaps work together with Anousak Souphavanh [EMAIL PROTECTED]? Please see http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2008-October/msg00210.html and http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2008-October/msg00211.html. As Claude said, even if there is no http://l10n.gnome.org/teams/lo page yet, either of you can start contributing to the http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/lo page by opening bug reports at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/simple-bug-guide.cgi?product=l10ncomp=Lao%20[lo]http://bugzilla.gnome.org/simple-bug-guide.cgi?product=l10ncomp=Lao%20%5Blo%5D , attaching your translations to those bug reports, and asking people to commit those translation for you. When there has been translations contributed, a translation team can be discussed on this list. Christian -- Os555 www.laoubuntu.com ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: New team for [Lao] ([lo]) as the subject
Hi Os, If you want to write to Anousack you should send him this email, instead of writing to Christian and the mailing list... ;-) In general, feel free to discuss this internally in your Lao team. andre Am Samstag, den 01.11.2008, 18:55 +0700 schrieb Lao Ubuntu Team: Dear Sir Anousack Please give the step to work in gnome because i will make plan for a small training for the volunteer Reeqard Os On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Christian Rose [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/29/08, Lao Ubuntu Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My name is Outhai SAIOUDOM. i'm trying to look for Lao team on Gnome but There is no team for Lao language is listed in GNOME I18n site and I would like to request for new team, I have a small team working with translating Ubuntu, some friends at National University of Laos and some volunteers. My Email is : [EMAIL PROTECTED] The url is a part of Lao Open Source ( Lao Ubuntu ) initiative at: http://www.laoubuntu.com Hi, could you perhaps work together with Anousak Souphavanh [EMAIL PROTECTED]? Please see http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2008-October/msg00210.html and http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2008-October/msg00211.html. As Claude said, even if there is no http://l10n.gnome.org/teams/lo page yet, either of you can start contributing to the http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/lo page by opening bug reports at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/simple-bug-guide.cgi?product=l10ncomp=Lao%20[lo], attaching your translations to those bug reports, and asking people to commit those translation for you. When there has been translations contributed, a translation team can be discussed on this list. Christian -- Os555 www.laoubuntu.com ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | failed http://www.iomc.de/ | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: (...) Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Best, Petr Kovar ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA. There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western cultures. I hope our QA can gradually change their habit in the future, though. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32 +0700: On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA. There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western cultures. Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level of familiarity with Western culture. Best, Petr Kovar ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Petr Kovar skrev: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32 +0700: On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA. There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western cultures. Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level of familiarity with Western culture. While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with (otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had. Context is king. BR, Gudmund ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. I've tried creating an icon theme using the hat logo. http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/Hat-20081102.tar.gz This overrides start-here, process-idle and process-working, to replace the foot at known significant places. The throbber is quick and dirty draft. Ideas are welcome. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Gudmund Areskoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Petr Kovar skrev: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32 +0700: On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA. There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western cultures. Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level of familiarity with Western culture. While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with (otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had. Context is king. Yes, and what's actually needed to use English UI is just a small set of vocabulary. File, New, Open, Edit, Cut, Paste, etc. When long messages appear, just find the Next, OK or Cancel button. Never waste time to read them. And almost zero user reads manuals/helps. Sort of sad to learn that as a translator, right? Having that said, though, I think setting appropriate default icon theme for locales is still a good idea. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Gudmund Areskoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Petr Kovar skrev: Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level of familiarity with Western culture. While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with (otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had. Context is king. Yes, and what's actually needed to use English UI is just a small set of vocabulary. File, New, Open, Edit, Cut, Paste, etc. When long messages appear, just find the Next, OK or Cancel button. Never waste time to read them. And almost zero user reads manuals/helps. Oh, let me add another cause: most Thai books and on-line tutorials teach English commands and use English screenshots. So, newbies just build their software skill in that environment. But all explanations are in Thai, of course. Sometimes, when I write how-to by referencing Thai UI, I still have to add its English version in parallel, to help them associate to their knowledge, as well as to get them familiar with Thai UI. One reason I still work on translation is to aim toward people who learn to use software without reading books, especially for primary students who have not learned enough vocabs to grab English meanings in UI, and senior people who are totally new to computers. But they seem to be minority currently. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
