Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 12:31 -0400, Christian Rose wrote: On 6/19/06, Paolo Maggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was giving a look to bug #330868 (Adding License button and dialog to About dialog). It seems to me we are duplicating the same long strings (mostly the GPL license) in most applications marking them for translation in order to add a License button to the about dialog. What about storing the most important open source licenses in a unique repository in order to minimize string duplication and translators work? I'm thinking to a special package like the one containing all the languages name (the iso_639 module). I would prefer if such functionality could be added to GTK+, at least for the short License declarations (like This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms...), for the following reasons: I replied to this thread, but seems like it didn't make it through the list. I've been working on exactly what you suggest in this bug: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336225 A couple of technical questions remain open, but you get the idea. -- behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
On 19/06/06, Alan Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ar Llu, 2006-06-19 am 18:39 +0800, ysgrifennodd James Henstridge: If you intend to present localised license text, please provide a way to turn it off (and probably turn it off by default ...). Translations can introduce ambiguities or change the meaning of a text, which is not acceptable in the case of a legal document. My agreement to license my code under the GPL does not imply my agreement to license it under a random translation of the GPL, so it shouldn't be presented as such to the user. True, but it is also true that in many jurisdictions a license in a foreign language will not find much favour. The license serves several purposes and precise legal defence of the code (within the limits of that jurisdiction) is one, in some ways, less important property. The GPL also tells users about their freedom and about their rights. Encoding the rights of people in a foreign language so they cannot exercise them is a fine tradition, normally exercised by invaders, oppressors and other bodies not in the tradition of freedom. Translations really should include a translation of the license text where there is a standardised and checked one, but need to state that the American English version is the authorative document for legal purposes and include that too where the license text would be printed. Only by doing that do you tell people what Free Software means and what rights you have given them. Those are good points, and it sounds like a good idea to show an unofficial translation along with the real license. But it needs to be clear that if the translation and the english text differ that the english text be considered authorative. This is particularly important if the translated text is displayed when the user asks the app what its license is. James. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 18:39 +0800, James Henstridge wrote: On 19/06/06, Paolo Maggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I was giving a look to bug #330868 (Adding License button and dialog to About dialog). It seems to me we are duplicating the same long strings (mostly the GPL license) in most applications marking them for translation in order to add a License button to the about dialog. If you intend to present localised license text, please provide a way to turn it off (and probably turn it off by default ...). Translations can introduce ambiguities or change the meaning of a text, which is not acceptable in the case of a legal document. My agreement to license my code under the GPL does not imply my agreement to license it under a random translation of the GPL, so it shouldn't be presented as such to the user. I don't want to show in the License dialog the entire license text but only the good old This program is free software... [snip]You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program... snippet. I agree with you translations of license text could be problematic. But I don't think this is the case since the text only says which is the license and where to find it. Ciao, Paolo ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
Hi, Why do you need a new module? You can do these translations in gtk+, where the dialog is defined. It would be nice, if gtk would have predefined licenses available for the about dialog. Yair Paolo Maggi wrote: Hi, I was giving a look to bug #330868 (Adding License button and dialog to About dialog). It seems to me we are duplicating the same long strings (mostly the GPL license) in most applications marking them for translation in order to add a License button to the about dialog. What about storing the most important open source licenses in a unique repository in order to minimize string duplication and translators work? I'm thinking to a special package like the one containing all the languages name (the iso_639 module). I'm particularly interested in knowing what our fantastic i18n team thinks about this problem. Is it a real problem for you or am I on crack? Any volunteer to set up the module? Ciao, Paolo ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
Has anyone looked into the use of Tim Fosters (yeah Glynn's brother) open language tools? https://open-language-tools.dev.java.net/ I know they are in Java, but this is the main point of what it addresses - the sharing of translations - while it doesn't have the server functionality, it does go some way to supporting the idea of sharing of translations. Darren. PS - I'm no expert in L10N or I18N, so please excuse my ignorance... Paolo Maggi wrote: Hi, I was giving a look to bug #330868 (Adding License button and dialog to About dialog). It seems to me we are duplicating the same long strings (mostly the GPL license) in most applications marking them for translation in order to add a License button to the about dialog. What about storing the most important open source licenses in a unique repository in order to minimize string duplication and translators work? I'm thinking to a special package like the one containing all the languages name (the iso_639 module). I'm particularly interested in knowing what our fantastic i18n team thinks about this problem. Is it a real problem for you or am I on crack? Any volunteer to set up the module? Ciao, Paolo ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
Yair wrote: What about storing the most important open source licenses in a unique repository in order to minimize string duplication and translators work? I'm thinking to a special package like the one containing all the languages name (the iso_639 module). I'm particularly interested in knowing what our fantastic i18n team thinks about this problem. Is it a real problem for you or am I on crack? Any volunteer to set up the module? Why do you need a new module? You can do these translations in gtk+, where the dialog is defined. It would be nice, if gtk would have predefined licenses available for the about dialog. Both GPL, FDL and LGPL are translatable under the gnome-desktop module. Maybe that could be of any use here? Regards, Daniel ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
James Henstridge wrote: Translations can introduce ambiguities or change the meaning of a text, which is not acceptable in the case of a legal document. My agreement to license my code under the GPL does not imply my agreement to license it under a random translation of the GPL, so it shouldn't be presented as such to the user. FSF has not approved any translation of their licenses (and should not either). For legal interpretations, use original english document. All translations of licenses should include a disclaimer (see [1]) since they a) have no legal power b) not issued by FSF c) are only for non-english speaking persons. I think that localized licenses are good. If they are used correctly. Daniel [1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/translations.html ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
On 6/19/06, Paolo Maggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was giving a look to bug #330868 (Adding License button and dialog to About dialog). It seems to me we are duplicating the same long strings (mostly the GPL license) in most applications marking them for translation in order to add a License button to the about dialog. What about storing the most important open source licenses in a unique repository in order to minimize string duplication and translators work? I'm thinking to a special package like the one containing all the languages name (the iso_639 module). I would prefer if such functionality could be added to GTK+, at least for the short License declarations (like This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms...), for the following reasons: 1) Most common widget and menu names are already defined (and translated) in GTK+. A License button would be the same thing. 2) If there was an add a license dialog to my app API for developers to use, it would make sense to allow a template for the short declarations of most common licenses to be used. If run in a non-English locale, also display a non-official translation if it exists. 3) External dependencies that help translation (like the iso_639 module) are very useful, but developers are often not aware of it, and for obvious reasons they try to avoid unnecessary dependencies, so in practice, few applications make use of them. I'm particularly interested in knowing what our fantastic i18n team thinks about this problem. Is it a real problem for you or am I on crack? Any volunteer to set up the module? It is a real problem. I've lost track of how many times I have manually copied the unofficial Swedish translation of the This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms... This app is GPL-style declaration blurb into different applications. Even more exciting since different applications format the texts differently (with or without newlines and/or markup, different amount of spacing, etc) and give different addresses to the FSF (the FSF changed address at least once), so the number of variants in use is enormous... A do it once, do it right convenience API for developers to use for this would be a big plus, for both developers and translators. Christian ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
2006/6/19, James Henstridge [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 19/06/06, Paolo Maggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I was giving a look to bug #330868 (Adding License button and dialog to About dialog). It seems to me we are duplicating the same long strings (mostly the GPL license) in most applications marking them for translation in order to add a License button to the about dialog. If you intend to present localised license text, please provide a way to turn it off (and probably turn it off by default ...). Translations can introduce ambiguities or change the meaning of a text, which is not acceptable in the case of a legal document. My agreement to license my code under the GPL does not imply my agreement to license it under a random translation of the GPL, so it shouldn't be presented as such to the user. This is also what the FSF states on their license page[1]. That page also contains links to already translated versions of the three GNU licenses. They are unofficial though, in the sense that it is the English version that what counts in court. Isak [1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#UnofficialTranslations ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fixing bug #330868 in a smart way
Ar Llu, 2006-06-19 am 18:39 +0800, ysgrifennodd James Henstridge: If you intend to present localised license text, please provide a way to turn it off (and probably turn it off by default ...). Translations can introduce ambiguities or change the meaning of a text, which is not acceptable in the case of a legal document. My agreement to license my code under the GPL does not imply my agreement to license it under a random translation of the GPL, so it shouldn't be presented as such to the user. True, but it is also true that in many jurisdictions a license in a foreign language will not find much favour. The license serves several purposes and precise legal defence of the code (within the limits of that jurisdiction) is one, in some ways, less important property. The GPL also tells users about their freedom and about their rights. Encoding the rights of people in a foreign language so they cannot exercise them is a fine tradition, normally exercised by invaders, oppressors and other bodies not in the tradition of freedom. Translations really should include a translation of the license text where there is a standardised and checked one, but need to state that the American English version is the authorative document for legal purposes and include that too where the license text would be printed. Only by doing that do you tell people what Free Software means and what rights you have given them. Alan ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
