Re: Modified strings up to release date
Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 07:54 +0200, Johannes Schmid a écrit : Hi! I know this is a problem but developers often simply don't have time to update docs very often and as such update them when we are in code freeze because they can't do anything else at that time. As we have no freeze for docs this is completely OK and leads to better and up-to-date documentation in general. Though it might mean that there won't be fully translated docs in the .0 release but likely in the .1 release used by most distributions. I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-( Claude On Mo, 2008-09-22 at 07:01 +0200, Jorge González González wrote: Hi, there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. Cheers. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- www.2xlibre.net ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57, Claude Paroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 07:54 +0200, Johannes Schmid a écrit : Hi! I know this is a problem but developers often simply don't have time to update docs very often and as such update them when we are in code freeze because they can't do anything else at that time. As we have no freeze for docs this is completely OK and leads to better and up-to-date documentation in general. Though it might mean that there won't be fully translated docs in the .0 release but likely in the .1 release used by most distributions. I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-( yes, I also see at as a question of respect, perhaps we could do some spam, we are quite a lot of translators ;) Claude On Mo, 2008-09-22 at 07:01 +0200, Jorge González González wrote: Hi, there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. Cheers. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- www.2xlibre.net -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://aloriel.no-ip.org IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González: there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet. It boils down to the problem Having better (updated) english documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation. Pick your poison. For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs. andre -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | failed http://www.iomc.de/ | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57:24AM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-( Translated work is important. However, documentation has the issue that it is often out of date. That should be solved before it is translated. -- Regards, Olav ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit : Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González: there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet. It boils down to the problem Having better (updated) english documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation. Pick your poison. For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs. Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze... It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe. The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs. I'm also sure that maintainers have enough work to do the last week-end before the release, ensuring a good and bugfree tarball is delivered. Claude ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 12:04 +0200, Olav Vitters a écrit : On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57:24AM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-( Translated work is important. However, documentation has the issue that it is often out of date. That should be solved before it is translated. Yes, but that's two different problems that should be addressed separately. For well translated docs, a small freeze before the main releases is a good solution. For good and up-to-date documentation, we need to recruit more writers. Claude ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 01:33:04PM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 12:04 +0200, Olav Vitters a écrit : On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57:24AM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-( Translated work is important. However, documentation has the issue that it is often out of date. That should be solved before it is translated. Yes, but that's two different problems that should be addressed separately. How is it separate? Adding a freeze period means the docs will be even more outdated as they are now. I do not see how this can be seen as a separate problem. For well translated docs, a small freeze before the main releases is a good solution. For good and up-to-date documentation, we need to recruit more writers. As we do not have enough writers, we avoid limiting the time they have to write the documentation. -- Regards, Olav ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:45 +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit : Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González: there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet. It boils down to the problem Having better (updated) english documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation. Pick your poison. For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs. Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze... As I've pointed out before, this analogy doesn't hold water. It's not a matter of making the documentation more polished. It's a matter of making it correct. If a program needs a string addition to give a user information in the case of some error, that's polish. If the documentation is telling you to click on button XYZ, but button XYZ does not exist in the program, that's just flat out wrong. There is no point in translating that sentence, because there are exactly zero users who would be helped by reading it. It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe. The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs. Stormy had a great blog post a few days back, talking about how project releases are constrained by time, resources, and scope. We currently have a fixed amount of time, and have a very difficult time increasing our resources (i.e. writers). Our scope (i.e. documentation quality) suffers. If you decrease our time without increasing our resources, documentation quality will suffer. Please don't claim there is no respect for translators, as you did in a previous email. That's pure flamebait. I put a lot of work (along with Danilo) into making translators able to do documentation with po files. I wrote an entire DocBook toolchain in part because the existing solutions didn't serve our translators well. I have put a lot of development time into making sure you can have properly translated documentation. But I will not take precious time away from our few valiant writers, just so you can have a translated version of a document that's not even correct or helpful in English. -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 09:53 -0500, Shaun McCance a écrit : On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:45 +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit : Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González: there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet. It boils down to the problem Having better (updated) english documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation. Pick your poison. For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs. Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze... As I've pointed out before, this analogy doesn't hold water. It's not a matter of making the documentation more polished. It's a matter of making it correct. If a program needs a string addition to give a user information in the case of some error, that's polish. If the documentation is telling you to click on button XYZ, but button XYZ does not exist in the program, that's just flat out wrong. There is no point in translating that sentence, because there are exactly zero users who would be helped by reading it. I don't contest the need to correct this, but the timeframe to do it. Moreover, freezes have exception processes, so obvious and critical errors could still be committed. It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe. The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs. Stormy had a great blog post a few days back, talking about how project releases are constrained by time, resources, and scope. We currently have a fixed amount of time, and have a very difficult time increasing our resources (i.e. writers). Our scope (i.e. documentation quality) suffers. If you decrease our time without increasing our resources, documentation quality will suffer. Please, please... we're talking about a some (3?) days freeze in a schedule of six months. Please don't claim there is no respect for translators, as you did in a previous email. That's pure flamebait. When you pass tenth of hours to translate a big document and you see half of it unvalidated by an update some hours before the release, try to imagine the feeling of the translator... I put a lot of work (along with Danilo) into making translators able to do documentation with po files. I wrote an entire DocBook toolchain in part because the existing solutions didn't serve our translators well. I have put a lot of development time into making sure you can have properly translated documentation. But I will not take precious time away from our few valiant writers, just so you can have a translated version of a document that's not even correct or helpful in English. And you know that I'm also one of these few (albeit a minor one). We both defend our respective position (doc writer/translator). IMHO both are somewhat valid but unfortunately they conflict... and I don't see this thread going to change anything right now. Claude ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
El lun, 22-09-2008 a las 09:00 +0200, Jorge González escribió: I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-( yes, I also see at as a question of respect, perhaps we could do some spam, we are quite a lot of translators ;) You should raise this to release-team or at least to desktop-devel-list. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra [EMAIL PROTECTED] Igalia ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
El lun, 22-09-2008 a las 17:43 +0200, Claude Paroz escribió: Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 09:53 -0500, Shaun McCance a écrit : On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:45 +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit : Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González: there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet. It boils down to the problem Having better (updated) english documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation. Pick your poison. For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs. Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze... As I've pointed out before, this analogy doesn't hold water. It's not a matter of making the documentation more polished. It's a matter of making it correct. If a program needs a string addition to give a user information in the case of some error, that's polish. If the documentation is telling you to click on button XYZ, but button XYZ does not exist in the program, that's just flat out wrong. There is no point in translating that sentence, because there are exactly zero users who would be helped by reading it. I don't contest the need to correct this, but the timeframe to do it. Moreover, freezes have exception processes, so obvious and critical errors could still be committed. It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe. The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs. Stormy had a great blog post a few days back, talking about how project releases are constrained by time, resources, and scope. We currently have a fixed amount of time, and have a very difficult time increasing our resources (i.e. writers). Our scope (i.e. documentation quality) suffers. If you decrease our time without increasing our resources, documentation quality will suffer. Please, please... we're talking about a some (3?) days freeze in a schedule of six months. I totally agree. Please don't claim there is no respect for translators, as you did in a previous email. That's pure flamebait. When you pass tenth of hours to translate a big document and you see half of it unvalidated by an update some hours before the release, try to imagine the feeling of the translator... I put a lot of work (along with Danilo) into making translators able to do documentation with po files. I wrote an entire DocBook toolchain in part because the existing solutions didn't serve our translators well. and we are verey grateful, belive me, now translating the help files is much more easy, that's probably why there are more files translated. I have put a lot of development time into making sure you can have properly translated documentation. But I will not take precious time away from our few valiant writers, just so you can have a translated version of a document that's not even correct or helpful in English. well, obviously is good to have updated documentation, but if you can't read it because you don't speak/read English, you probably care the same, which is nothing. And you know that I'm also one of these few (albeit a minor one). We both defend our respective position (doc writer/translator). IMHO both are somewhat valid but unfortunately they conflict... and I don't see this thread going to change anything right now. Claude ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- Jorge González González [EMAIL PROTECTED] Weblog: http://aloriel.no-ip.org Fotolog: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aloriel ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Modified strings up to release date
Hi! I know this is a problem but developers often simply don't have time to update docs very often and as such update them when we are in code freeze because they can't do anything else at that time. As we have no freeze for docs this is completely OK and leads to better and up-to-date documentation in general. Though it might mean that there won't be fully translated docs in the .0 release but likely in the .1 release used by most distributions. Regards, Johannes On Mo, 2008-09-22 at 07:01 +0200, Jorge González González wrote: Hi, there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about freezing somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep updating it up to today. I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot think we can translate like this. Cheers. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
