RFC: compat list

[Sergey Udaltsov]

Hi folks

I asked on IRC, got a lot of interesting information, but nothing
definite and final (as expected)...

Would it make sense to consolidate all HW+GL-related information
(requirements) on a single page on live.gnome.org? Minimal list of
extensions, hints ("do not use this driver, do not use those chips,
etc")

I know the final HW compat list is always distro-specific, but at
least g-s could provide some starting point (useful to both
distromakers and end-users).

Thanks,

Sergey
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Re: Request for a choice

[Ryan Peters]

On 04/30/2011 12:35 PM, Tim Murphy wrote:

Hi,

I am using Fedora Core 15 and am not happy with the new shell.

I don't wish to start a flamewar so I'm not going to list any points
about it or waste time arguing about the details.  This link explains
how I feel probably better than I could myself:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/gnome-3.html
Oh gosh, that post annoys me. Well, how long have you given GNOME 3 a 
try? Did you learn the keyboard shortcuts like Alt+Tab and Alt+` (or 
whatever's above tab)? Pressing the Activities (windows) key to quickly 
get to the dash? There's tons of nice shortcuts that make using the 
desktop faster and more efficient; I'd read up on some (like the GNOME 
Shell Cheat Sheet ) before 
you give up.


Also, you can use the "Fallback Mode" by going to System Settings -> 
System Info -> Graphics -> Forced Fallback Mode, but it's called 
"Fallback Mode" for a good reason; it's deprecated and it won't receive 
major updates in the future. It's a mostly identical GNOME 2-like 
experience but it doesn't support some applets (they'll need to be 
ported). Still, I highly recommend using that.


Also, don't forget that GNOME 2 will be supported by some distros for at 
least another year security-wise, and the latest Red Hat Enterprise 
Linux release supports it way, way longer. You aren't forced to use 
GNOME 3, but please give it a try, it's very pleasant once you're used 
to it! GNOME 3.2 and 3.4 are going to be even better and more usable as 
a whole, so if GNOME 3.0 isn't good for you now, even after you've tried 
it, waiting for those releases would be a good choice.

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Re: Feedback

[Gianluca Sforna]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Jasper St. Pierre
 wrote:
> There's a gradient background for apps that are running.

I always though it was a bit too subtle, I hope it can evolve in
something more obvious for 3.2


-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://identi.ca/giallu - http://twitter.com/giallu
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Re: Feedback

[Gianluca Sforna]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Jasper St. Pierre
 wrote:
> You can use the dash to switch between running applications too! I'm not
> sure why, but most people don't discover this...

I believe it's some kind of muscle memory. The dash reminds a lot the
old panels, and the buttons in the old panels are for launching new
application instances.

In fact, this was annoying me when I started using the Shell, and one
of the first things I searched was how to actually open another
instance of the same app.

-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://identi.ca/giallu - http://twitter.com/giallu
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Request for a choice

[Tim Murphy]

Hi,

I am using Fedora Core 15 and am not happy with the new shell.

I don't wish to start a flamewar so I'm not going to list any points
about it or waste time arguing about the details.  This link explains
how I feel probably better than I could myself:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/gnome-3.html

I will just say that I sat down and used a Mac for 20 minutes the
other day for first time and it was weird but I ended up being able to
do things and to intuit what was required. I mean to say that I don't
think I'm being entirely change resistant.   I will also say that
there *are* problems with what went before and I think that there is
room for immense change although I think it's a hard thing to do.

The point I do wish to make is about how it is being done.  I have the
feeling of being offered no choice and being told what's good for me
or that I am old and set in my ways.  The Gnome alternatives are truly
not that great and it feels like there is nowhere to turn to that
isn't full of other problems. I think I'm going to have to go the
Compiz route but XFCE is the other possibility - although it looks
primitive it does work.

It is a comfortable situation to be able to tell users what they want
but most of us have to find ways to please them and win them over and
I would ask that with a change this momentous, that there be some way
to win people over.  e.g. I have never cared about gnome's choice of
email client or browsers or IM client because they were not compulsory
(and they are not very good IMHO either) but now we are into an area
from which there is no escape or choice as far as I am able to tell,
and this is a pity.

Regards,

Tim


-- 
You could help some brave and decent people to have access to
uncensored news by making a donation at:

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Re: Feedback

[Jasper St. Pierre]

There's a gradient background for apps that are running.

Look at gnome-terminal vs. Brasero in the mockup:
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell-design/plain/mockups/static/overview-application-picker.png

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 6:40 AM, Jasper St. Pierre 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> == Switching Applications ==
>>>
>>> Before actually testing Gnome Shell in "production use" with many open
>>> windows, I had imagined that switching applications in the expose view would
>>> work a bit faster and more efficient. With many windows I often find myself
>>> spending time on searching for the right one, as their minified versions
>>> look very similar.
>>>
>>> I think in the expose view, each application's icon should be shown in
>>> the minified window. This way finding the right window would be easier.
>>>
>>> Also for my feeling, the animation when opening and leaving the
>>> activities view takes a bit too much time.
>>>
>>
>> You can use the dash to switch between running applications too! I'm not
>> sure why, but most people don't discover this...
>>
>
> I think it is because one can't really differentiate a running app and one
> that is just a launcher.  I think on the Mac, there is some indication that
> it is a running app, by a dot or something.  I have to look at OSX really.
> So if you were to enhance the icon saying that it is running that would be a
> good step towards getting people to use it more.
>
>
> If there is no bug on it, I'll file one.
>
> sri
>
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Re: Feedback

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 6:40 AM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote:

>
> == Switching Applications ==
>>
>> Before actually testing Gnome Shell in "production use" with many open
>> windows, I had imagined that switching applications in the expose view would
>> work a bit faster and more efficient. With many windows I often find myself
>> spending time on searching for the right one, as their minified versions
>> look very similar.
>>
>> I think in the expose view, each application's icon should be shown in the
>> minified window. This way finding the right window would be easier.
>>
>> Also for my feeling, the animation when opening and leaving the activities
>> view takes a bit too much time.
>>
>
> You can use the dash to switch between running applications too! I'm not
> sure why, but most people don't discover this...
>

I think it is because one can't really differentiate a running app and one
that is just a launcher.  I think on the Mac, there is some indication that
it is a running app, by a dot or something.  I have to look at OSX really.
So if you were to enhance the icon saying that it is running that would be a
good step towards getting people to use it more.


If there is no bug on it, I'll file one.

sri
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Re: Feedback

[Marc Fouquet]

It should only be a default if we detect you computer can support it.

Can you give us some hardware details, and try:

   pm-utils --suspend && echo "Supported" || echo "Not supported"

in a terminal?


% /usr/bin/pm-is-supported --suspend && echo "Supported" || echo "Not 
supported"

=> Supported

This morning I tried to suspend via gnome shell. When I turned the 
machine back on, Gnome asked me for my password, started loading my 
applications and crashed (I could already see the outlines of the windows).


Right now I tried sudo /usr/sbin/pm-suspend. The machine actually came 
up again, but now fonts and icons are messed up.


Regards,
Marc
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Re: Feedback

[Patrick Michael Niedzielski]

On sab, 2011-04-30 at 15:12 +0200, Marc Fouquet wrote:
> After installing Ubuntu Natty with Gnome Shell from the PPA and using it 
> for a few hours, I also want to give some feedback.

> == Switching Applications ==
> 
> Before actually testing Gnome Shell in "production use" with many open 
> windows, I had imagined that switching applications in the expose view 
> would work a bit faster and more efficient. With many windows I often 
> find myself spending time on searching for the right one, as their 
> minified versions look very similar.
> 
> I think in the expose view, each application's icon should be shown in 
> the minified window. This way finding the right window would be easier.

I really like this idea.  A small icon could be overlayed on one of the
corners of the window (if available).  If not the default behaviour, it
sounds like an interesting extension.

Cheers,
Patrick Niedzielski


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Re: Feedback

[Jasper St. Pierre]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Marc Fouquet  wrote:

> After installing Ubuntu Natty with Gnome Shell from the PPA and using it
> for a few hours, I also want to give some feedback.
>
> First of all Gnome Shell appears conceptually nice and consistent (this is
> my main criticism regarding Unity, which is inconsistent and buggy in many
> places). I am not sure yet if I like the new workflow better than the
> traditional one, but I will definitely test it for a longer period of time.
>
> My main points are the following ones:
>
> == Suspend instead of Shutdown ==
>
> Surely this has been discussed extensively, I just want to mention that
> suspend simply does not work for me (tested on two computers, both do not
> wake up correctly).
>
> Generally I like the gnome philosophy of simplifying things by removing
> options. But leaving non-technical users with a default setting that does
> not work is not a good choice.
>

It should only be a default if we detect you computer can support it.

Can you give us some hardware details, and try:

  pm-utils --suspend && echo "Supported" || echo "Not supported"

in a terminal?


> == Switching Applications ==
>
> Before actually testing Gnome Shell in "production use" with many open
> windows, I had imagined that switching applications in the expose view would
> work a bit faster and more efficient. With many windows I often find myself
> spending time on searching for the right one, as their minified versions
> look very similar.
>
> I think in the expose view, each application's icon should be shown in the
> minified window. This way finding the right window would be easier.
>
> Also for my feeling, the animation when opening and leaving the activities
> view takes a bit too much time.
>

You can use the dash to switch between running applications too! I'm not
sure why, but most people don't discover this...


> == Minor remarks ==
>
> - I really miss a way to launch applications on startup. In Ubuntu the
> "gnome-session-properties" dialog can still be accessed from the command
> line, but settings are ignored.
>

There should be something in the new control center.
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Feedback

[Marc Fouquet]

After installing Ubuntu Natty with Gnome Shell from the PPA and using it 
for a few hours, I also want to give some feedback.


First of all Gnome Shell appears conceptually nice and consistent (this 
is my main criticism regarding Unity, which is inconsistent and buggy in 
many places). I am not sure yet if I like the new workflow better than 
the traditional one, but I will definitely test it for a longer period 
of time.


My main points are the following ones:

== Suspend instead of Shutdown ==

Surely this has been discussed extensively, I just want to mention that 
suspend simply does not work for me (tested on two computers, both do 
not wake up correctly).


Generally I like the gnome philosophy of simplifying things by removing 
options. But leaving non-technical users with a default setting that 
does not work is not a good choice.


== Switching Applications ==

Before actually testing Gnome Shell in "production use" with many open 
windows, I had imagined that switching applications in the expose view 
would work a bit faster and more efficient. With many windows I often 
find myself spending time on searching for the right one, as their 
minified versions look very similar.


I think in the expose view, each application's icon should be shown in 
the minified window. This way finding the right window would be easier.


Also for my feeling, the animation when opening and leaving the 
activities view takes a bit too much time.


== Minor remarks ==

- I really miss a way to launch applications on startup. In Ubuntu the 
"gnome-session-properties" dialog can still be accessed from the command 
line, but settings are ignored.


- When opening a picture in Gimp, only one of Gimp's multiple windows 
(the actual picture) appears in the Gnome Shell expose view. When I move 
this window to a different desktop, the other windows (the toolboxes) 
stay on the old desktop. Obviously I can not work with Gimp without 
toolboxes and I have no way of getting them to the new Desktop using 
Gnome Shell. Using the context menus of the Toolboxes title bars is a 
workaround, but not a nice one.


- I would suggest adding hotkeys to snap windows in different ways, i.e. 
to use only the top right quarter of the screen (i.e. Super - Keypad 9). 
Such a feature would be nice for power users and it would not disturb 
regular users.


- One nice thing: Gnome Shell works well with Guake.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: 3rd party application integration guidelines - how to be a good shell citizen?

[Lucas David-Roesler]

>
> as a plain user, i'd really love to see some consistency there. the use of
> the close button became sort of a chaos, and now i have to remember
> individually for each application whether the X in the top-right corner
> will
> actually close it, or just hide it somewhere (i.e. Banshee used to close
> properly, but since it has systemtray/indicator support, it just gets
> hidden). now i am using keyboard shortcuts to manage this, but even there i
> found some inconsistency: some apps close with ctrl+w, some with ctrl+q, so
> the user has to remember individually again for each app how to actually
> shut it down.
> imho, it would be great to have a second button on the titlebar for hiding
> windows. and i don't necessarily mean minimizing here, but it would be
> great
> to know that the X does close the app, and the other button for example can
> put it on a new workspace, or something. just to get it out of sight (so
> you
> don't need to go nto activities mode and drag&drop it on another
> workspace).
> there could be some showing the user that the app has been moved to another
> workspace (like the workspaces sidebar showing up, and the app going there
> with some "minimize" effect).
>

+1 for consistency in the close button.  I would also love to see a button
to send window to another workplace.

~Lucas David-Roesler
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Re: 3rd party application integration guidelines - how to be a good shell citizen?

[Marcel]

Am 30.04.2011 09:28, schrieb Koppányi Tamás:

Yes, but the question remains: How is a headless application
represented in GNOME Shell? How does the user send an application to
the background, given that the minimize button is gone? Is it
really a good idea to go for the inconsistency and just not exit these
applications on window close, but send them to the background instead?


as a plain user, i'd really love to see some consistency there. the use
of the close button became sort of a chaos, and now i have to remember
individually for each application whether the X in the top-right corner
will actually close it, or just hide it somewhere (i.e. Banshee used to
close properly, but since it has systemtray/indicator support, it just
gets hidden). now i am using keyboard shortcuts to manage this, but even
there i found some inconsistency: some apps close with ctrl+w, some with
ctrl+q, so the user has to remember individually again for each app how
to actually shut it down.
imho, it would be great to have a second button on the titlebar for
hiding windows. and i don't necessarily mean minimizing here, but it
would be great to know that the X does close the app, and the other
button for example can put it on a new workspace, or something. just to
get it out of sight (so you don't need to go nto activities mode and
drag&drop it on another workspace). there could be some showing the user
that the app has been moved to another workspace (like the workspaces
sidebar showing up, and the app going there with some "minimize" effect).


While reading the last few mails I always had the way OS X does this in 
mind. Picking up the mail client again: Closing it would "minimize" 
(kinda reintroducing that feature) to the dash (!) and indicating 
somehow visually that it is still running. Once there's new mail, there 
could be an indicator (the same one, modified? + a non-persistent 
notification) on the dash icon that communicates that. That could 
emphasize even more the importance of the overview.


I actually like the closing concept OS X uses, one could introduce a 
close option in the top bar's application menu to carry out the headless 
applications concept. Or invent something else here, haven't thought 
this point too thoroughly yet. It would be even nicer to be able to 
serialize an application as said before to save the ram that it used. 
"suspending" applications to swap (?) comes to my mind there, but that 
looks very ambitious :)


Marcel
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Re: solution for notifications

[Koppányi Tamás]

yes, that's also perfectly fine. now if only installing extensions was a bit
more simple. if this happened, i'd surely swtch to gnome-shell on my main
system.


Le lundi 25 avril 2011 à 09:12 -0400, G. Michael Carter a écrit :
> > I still like the idea of a halo like how Docky does it when somethings
> > waiting.   Or even have the wave that shows up when activities is
> > activated in the bottom corner.  Have it show when there's a message
> > waiting.
> When the icons in the dash show the number of notifications waiting (or
> with a halo, anything), people will be able to use the extension that
> always shows the dash, and I guess it will solve the problem.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
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Re: solution for notifications

[Milan Bouchet-Valat]

Le lundi 25 avril 2011 à 09:12 -0400, G. Michael Carter a écrit :
> I still like the idea of a halo like how Docky does it when somethings
> waiting.   Or even have the wave that shows up when activities is
> activated in the bottom corner.  Have it show when there's a message
> waiting. 
When the icons in the dash show the number of notifications waiting (or
with a halo, anything), people will be able to use the extension that
always shows the dash, and I guess it will solve the problem.


Regards


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Re: 3rd party application integration guidelines - how to be a good shell citizen?

[Koppányi Tamás]

> Yes, but the question remains: How is a headless application
> represented in GNOME Shell? How does the user send an application to
> the background, given that the minimize button is gone? Is it
> really a good idea to go for the inconsistency and just not exit these
> applications on window close, but send them to the background instead?
>

as a plain user, i'd really love to see some consistency there. the use of
the close button became sort of a chaos, and now i have to remember
individually for each application whether the X in the top-right corner will
actually close it, or just hide it somewhere (i.e. Banshee used to close
properly, but since it has systemtray/indicator support, it just gets
hidden). now i am using keyboard shortcuts to manage this, but even there i
found some inconsistency: some apps close with ctrl+w, some with ctrl+q, so
the user has to remember individually again for each app how to actually
shut it down.
imho, it would be great to have a second button on the titlebar for hiding
windows. and i don't necessarily mean minimizing here, but it would be great
to know that the X does close the app, and the other button for example can
put it on a new workspace, or something. just to get it out of sight (so you
don't need to go nto activities mode and drag&drop it on another workspace).
there could be some showing the user that the app has been moved to another
workspace (like the workspaces sidebar showing up, and the app going there
with some "minimize" effect).
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