Question about CSS and documentation
Hello, I'm new to gnome-shell and I love it. Thanks for your work. I'm trying to tweak the UI a bit for my taste. For example, I'm trying to make my window title bar transparent. I'm a web developer and I'm familiar with CSS. I know gnome-shell has a javascript binding and can be control through CSS. That made me think that it would be easy. Apparently, its not. *About CSS* Gnome-shell is not HTML after all. I couldn't trace the plain HTML code and find the correct element to style on. I'm not familiar with the C language, that stops me from studying the source code of gnome-shell to understand it completely. I'm sure many web developer would be as confuse as I do. If I don't know what elements are in the UI, I couldn't style them. That stops web developers from making more styles for Gnome Shell. The main issue is: I found no documentation on CSS or UI elements. I don't know what is the right element for me to change. Nor do I know if there is any. *User-independent style / local style* Another problem is about user-independent style. In short: is it possible to style different users differently? If I change /usr/share/gnome-shell/theme/gnome-shell.css, the changes go global. For extension, I can put the extension in ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/extensions. I thought I could put theme in ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/theme to do similar thing. But it doesn't seem to work. My style sheet ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/theme/gnome-shell.css is not effective. Either it is not read or it couldn't override settings in /usr/share/gnome-shell/theme/gnome-shell.css. So my questions are: 1. How to change the window titles to transparent? 2. Is there any documentation on the UI elements or CSS for Gnome Shell? If not, will there be any? 3. Can we do local style for each single user? Thanks. Koala Yeung ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
New Topic: fallback desktop
Why bring this up? Well 1) Fedora 15 fails to run on my machine (4 year old core 2 duo with nVidia GPU and 8GB of DDR2 RAM): The gnome shell fails to load, apparently an X problem 2) this was true as well on my work machine, an even older two processor Pentium 4 with 2.5 GB RAM 3) on both machines fedora 14 runs fine with an older version of gnome shell (the repo version, not the jhbuild version which would not load on either machine as well. So, out of curiosity, i loaded f15 into virtualbox and, surprise surprise it ran! (BTW: i filed a bug with fedora about the above problems and worked through the process with the first level bug zappers and they finally passed it on to the developers who have done nothing about it -- this was a month ago) So, anyway, f14 works OK with gnome shell, but it is not the canonical, final version (excuse the pun please) But f15 in the virtual machine goes to fallback mode. Let me say this, fallback mode is crapola. It appears to have returned gnome to the functionality of windows 95. The system controls (preferences and administration) are gelded and melded into the Other and System tools menu, which is not too disturbing, but there is almost nothing in them. The system control panel has almost nothing to control. While this system, even in virtual mode, can manage 3d acceleration I have no way to access this from the control panel, just to mention one rub. Much of the functionality of the old gnome panel is gone, who knows where? Should I reload, or install gnome 2 to get this back ( not that I really care, this is just an experiment) How and what should I do to get the shell working? My system says that I am using gnome 3, but metacity is also running as a process while mutter is not. This seems to be a major flaw to me, There should be a path that is made explicit to users and explains what Gnome 3 needs to function properly. I (and while I don't claim to be an uber-geek I got the long term creds to back up my claims) could push around a bit to find some stuff to mess with and haunt the forums (like I haunt the mailing list here) to try to find kindred souls who might have a clue what to do: but the point is the developers are pushing ahead full speed and leaving me behind! Perhaps the fedora devs will get it together for the final release so that I can move up to f15, but it sure seems like the push for the future is leaving most of the passengers behind while the crew goes full steam ahead. This is not to fuss at you about f15 problems, but to point out that you are a part of a larger problem right now and you are part of the larger solution as well. You need to make an effort to pay attention to the fallback application as well as the bright and shiny new one, especially if even relatively modern hardware is not loading your candy bars. On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 11:25 AM, gnome-shell-list-requ...@gnome.orgwrote: Send gnome-shell-list mailing list submissions to gnome-shell-list@gnome.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to gnome-shell-list-requ...@gnome.org You can reach the person managing the list at gnome-shell-list-ow...@gnome.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of gnome-shell-list digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Switch applications and all Windows/Launchers actions work only with Alt (Tassilo Horn) 2. New system monitor extension (Florian Mounier) 3. Re: New system monitor extension (Adam Williamson) 4. Re: New system monitor extension (John Stowers) 5. Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. (Adam Tauno Williams) 6. Re: Persistant Activities Menu (Tim Cuthbertson) 7. Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. (Ryan Peters) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:49:47 +0200 From: Tassilo Horn tass...@member.fsf.org To: Florian M?llner fmuell...@gnome.org Cc: public-gnome-shell-list-rdkqcyrbjuzytjvyw6y...@plane.gmane.org Subject: Re: Switch applications and all Windows/Launchers actions work only with Alt Message-ID: 877h9lzdl0@member.fsf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Florian M?llner fmuell...@gnome.org writes: Hi Florian, I've just noticed that when assigning shortcuts to actions in the Keyboard settings, there are quite some actions that can only be triggered if the shortcut includes the Alt modifier. This is not documented anywhere, and IMO it clearly classifies as a bug. Yes: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=645200. Thanks for the pointer. A similar issue applies to all actions in the Windows category or in the Launchers category. All these actions (Minimize window, Maximize window, Close window, ..., Launch help browser, Home folder,
Re: New system monitor extension
seems like a very nice idea! i'd welcome a weather applet integrated with the clock. in fact, it could be part of the base system too. also (and this might just be me) right now when i open down the clock applet, half of dropdown bubble is empty, since i don't keep my events and calendar in evolution. it would be nice if there was a chance of choosing what to display there, or it could be flipped to show detailed weather info, instead of calendar events and tasks. system monitor on the other hand would be perfectly fine and coherent, if it was displayed as an icon in the top-right corner, where you could get a detailed dropdown view on clicking it. Just thinking out loud, but it'd be nice to see alternative approaches to showing these things - system info, weather - than just re-creating applets. Has anyone thought of writing an extension that adds these somewhere else, like to the overview somehow? Or for weather, to the clock? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
ideas about the notification bar
Hi! As a whole, the gnome-shell is imho the best desktop environment out there, but i'm still having some issues with notifications. Getting right down to the point: - when there is a new incoming message, new event, and i get the pop-up notification in the bottom of the screen, it's a bit confusing, that the whole notification bar becomes visible with it. or so it seems, because the items that are supposed to be on the notification bar aren't displayed, only the gradient gray bar itself. i think it would be much cleaner, if there was only the pop-up itself isible. probably this could be solved with themes, but i'd really love the basic system to come like that, since most of the 3rd party themes i tried aren't nearly as ergonomic as the default one - it's also a bit redundant to have all empathy (or other instant messaging apps') chat windows dwell on the notification bar. you have windows in the overview mode, and also in the alt+tab switcher. notification bar should be used for notifications, and i think it would be best, if the chat events would be cleaned out when they become read. - i'd welcome an option to be able to set up what clicking on these notifications do. for exmaple, i'd like clicking on them to bring up the messaging window, instead of this baloon preview only. or at leat having different types of actions for them, like left click brings up the preview, middle click the whole window, right clicking the context menu. now one has to click the icon, then click inside the preview to get to the conversation window. or you could just bring up the conversation window on click, and (after a short delay) show the preview bubble on mouseover. - positioning on the elements of the notification bar is still a bit hard if one cannot use a high-precision pointing device, because of the slide-to-reveal the name animation. something more seamless would be better imho, like the magnification of the osx dock. also, having the titles of the notifications appear under or above the icons would be better, this way you wouldnt need any sliding at all. - a new message counter would be welcome on the icons of the notifications bar. - this might be an empathy bug, but there is a problem with clicking on the empathy text every time after i start something, that also puts a persistent icon on the notification bar (like ekiga, banshee or rhythmbox). after boot up until i start somthing like these programs, clicking on either the icon or the text works fine, but after that, only the icon is clickable. I have to add that i am not a developer of any kind, so my notices might not be professional enough, and i have absolutely no idea how difficult it would be to implement them, please excusem e for that, i'm just trying to look at it from a common user's perspective. K.T. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On 22 May 2011 04:25, Ryan Peters slosh...@sbcglobal.net wrote: On 05/21/2011 12:42 PM, Tim Murphy wrote: The *only* potentially good reason I've heard for, say, wanting a window list, is that some users like using the mouse and don't want to have to use the keyboard. In some (not all) cases this is the fault of the user for not trying to use both of their hands, but in other cases, such as if the user has only one hand or rarely has two hands available, it can be worked around with an extension. There are many, many extensions that enable a GNOME 2-like experience (application menu, icons on the top panel, moving the clock, etc.) and if GNOME 3 *cannot possibly fit into a user's workflow*, some extensions can help remedy that. It's extremely difficult to discuss anything if you think things are the user's fault in user interfaces. I'm more inclined to believe that everything is the user interfaces fault at least that's the better way to look at it since you can get people to adapt to anything if they absolutely have to with enough learning. Can you imagine a sour faced Mr Clippy appearing in your window saying, looks like you didn't do that right, bob, and it's your fault for not pressing ctrl-alt-f, just remember that for next time ok, because ctrl-al-f is much better than clicking like you used to ok? It's a visual user interface and some people may find it easier to stay in visual thinking mode and like to be able to see all their options so that they can save their brain space for what they're actually doing. Perhaps people don't work the way you do. How are you going to trash this argument? I am sure you'll find some way which is why it doesn't seem worth the effort to try and argue about these specific things. They *are* matters of preference and it's rare to be able to convince anyone to give up what they like and you certainly have not appeared to want to do so. Finally, saying things can be fixed with extensions is basically program it yourself if you don't like it, which is the standard response in OSS and in the end I think theres something fair about that. It is much easier to install XFCE though and it seems to suit me hence I've lost my motivation for continuing this discussion. Regards, Tim -- You could help some brave and decent people to have access to uncensored news by making a donation at: http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/ ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 12:27 +0100, Tim Murphy wrote: On 22 May 2011 04:25, Ryan Peters slosh...@sbcglobal.net wrote: On 05/21/2011 12:42 PM, Tim Murphy wrote: The *only* potentially good reason I've heard for, say, wanting a window list, is that some users like using the mouse and don't want to have to use the keyboard. In some (not all) cases this is the fault of the user for not trying to use both of their hands, but in other cases, such as if the user has only one hand or rarely has two hands available, it can be worked around with an extension. There are many, many extensions that enable a GNOME 2-like experience (application menu, icons on the top panel, moving the clock, etc.) and if GNOME 3 *cannot possibly fit into a user's workflow*, some extensions can help remedy that. It's a visual user interface and some people may find it easier to stay in visual thinking mode and like to be able to see all their options so that they can save their brain space for what they're actually doing. Perhaps people don't work the way you do. How are you going to trash this argument? Trashing that argument is simple - you can do that in GNOME3. *NOTHING* in GNOME3 prevents you from doing that. Really - all this harping seems to be primarily about one issue: launching applications. If anyone *really* sits at their computer and launches applications all day... they don't. Or actually some do. As an admin with 200+ users I watch them do it. Open an application, open a file, do something, close the application, repeat/ Can a DE really help these people? NO. The problem is the user, full-stop. That use will do exactly that in any environment you place them in. I am sure you'll find some way which is why it doesn't seem worth the effort to try and argue about these specific things. Because it isn't. If you watched GNOME3 development these things *were* [past-tense] discussed at length. That was the time to discuss them. Using your approach nothing could ever be developed since the request-for-comment period never closes. I think the decisions made were sound and the reasons for those decisions are available online. https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/ They *are* matters of preference and it's rare to be able to convince anyone to give up what they like and you certainly have not appeared to want to do so. Yep. Finally, saying things can be fixed with extensions is basically program it yourself if you don't like it, Which was *exactly* the same model used with GNOME2, and every other DE. That is why a significant percentage of GNOME2 users, and GNOME2 distributions, installed GNOME-Do [to make GNOME2 more like what GNOME3 is]. There were/are a myriad number of extensions to GNOME2. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: New system monitor extension
Il giorno sab, 21/05/2011 alle 14.17 +0200, Florian Mounier ha scritto: Hi ! I wrote a gnome shell extension displaying memory / swap / cpu usage in status bar. My code is far from perfect but I thought it might interest some of you. Code is available here: http://github.com/paradoxxxzero/gnome-shell-system-monitor-applet Any feedback is welcome. Best regards I'm afraid you're late. :) There is already a systemMonitor extension in gnome-shell-extension master, that shows CPU and memory using libgtop. Currently it adds an actor in the message tray; if you want to improve it to show a system status indicator, you should patch it and file a bug. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Question about CSS and documentation
Il giorno dom, 22/05/2011 alle 14.45 +0800, Shu Hung (Koala) ha scritto: Hello, I'm new to gnome-shell and I love it. Thanks for your work. I'm trying to tweak the UI a bit for my taste. For example, I'm trying to make my window title bar transparent. I'm a web developer and I'm familiar with CSS. I know gnome-shell has a javascript binding and can be control through CSS. That made me think that it would be easy. Apparently, its not. About CSS Gnome-shell is not HTML after all. I couldn't trace the plain HTML code and find the correct element to style on. I'm not familiar with the C language, that stops me from studying the source code of gnome-shell to understand it completely. I'm sure many web developer would be as confuse as I do. If I don't know what elements are in the UI, I couldn't style them. That stops web developers from making more styles for Gnome Shell. HTML elements in the Shell become Clutter Actors. Just read shell code (it is mostly Javascript, so it should be easy for you) and look for objects in the St and Shell namespaces. The main issue is: I found no documentation on CSS or UI elements. I don't know what is the right element for me to change. Nor do I know if there is any. Yes, currently there is no documentation. You should look in the default theme and try to guess from that. You can also use the inspector from the looking glass (alt-f2 lg, then click on the color picker icon on the top left), which will show the GType name (used like the element name in CSS), style class and pseudo-class of each Shell widget. User-independent style / local style Another problem is about user-independent style. In short: is it possible to style different users differently? If I change /usr/share/gnome-shell/theme/gnome-shell.css, the changes go global. For extension, I can put the extension in ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/extensions. I thought I could put theme in ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/theme to do similar thing. But it doesn't seem to work. My style sheet ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/theme/gnome-shell.css is not effective. Either it is not read or it couldn't override settings in /usr/share/gnome-shell/theme/gnome-shell.css. By default, only $(datadir)/gnome-shell/theme/gnome-shell.css is read ($(datadir) depends on where you install gnome-shell, it's /usr/share if you use distro packages). You need to install the user-theme extensions to load additional themes from ~/.themes/ThemeName/gnome-shell/gnome-shell.css. So my questions are: 1. How to change the window titles to transparent? Window decorations are not handled by the Shell but by libmutter, and use the standard Metacity theme format, which is described in http://developer.gnome.org/creating-metacity-themes/stable/ plus various text files in mutter git repository. Also, metacity themes can be chosen with GConf key /desktop/gnome/shell/windows/theme and are installed in ~/.themes/ThemeName/metacity-1/metacity-theme-3.xml 1. Is there any documentation on the UI elements or CSS for Gnome Shell? If not, will there be any? Currently, no. 1. Can we do local style for each single user? Only with user-theme extension. It was proposed to move this functionality to the Shell, but it was rejected precisely because there is no documentation on the format and Shell developer don't want to make any guarantee on widget hierarchies, style class names or CSS property syntax (except for what is also standard CSS2.1) Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: New Topic: fallback desktop
Le dimanche 22 mai 2011 à 15:03 +0800, lofton alley a écrit : Why bring this up? Well 1) Fedora 15 fails to run on my machine (4 year old core 2 duo with nVidia GPU and 8GB of DDR2 RAM): The gnome shell fails to load, apparently an X problem No need to draw general conclusions from that: please just file a bug. You know, the Shell isn't supposed to crash in the first place, so don't assume what you see is what should happen for every Fedora 15 user... ;-) If ABRT doesn't report a bug automatically when the Shell or X crashes, please follow instructions from here: https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Debugging We probably need the version and the name of the video driver you're using. And don't hesitate to ask for help on #gnome-shell or on the bug report. Cheers ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: New Topic: fallback desktop
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 02:03, lofton alley lh...@alumni.virginia.edu wrote: Let me say this, fallback mode is crapola. Please refrain from insults. I have no way to access this from the control panel, just to mention one rub. User menu (top right) - System settings. Much of the functionality of the old gnome panel is gone, who knows where? Alt-right click the panel in Fallback Mode; all the functionality is there. Vincent even added center gravity support for applets. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 06:27, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: It's extremely difficult to discuss anything if you think things are the user's fault in user interfaces. To make it absolutely crystal clear; you haven't been speaking to anyone who represents GNOME in any way. The signal-to-noise ratio on this list has gotten so bad that actual GNOME contributors have largely stopped reading it. Owen asked this thread to stop for precisely this reason. And yet here we are several days later... ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Em Dom, 2011-05-22 às 13:58 -0400, jordan escreveu: On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Jason D. Clinton m...@jasonclinton.com wrote: On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 06:27, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: It's extremely difficult to discuss anything if you think things are the user's fault in user interfaces. To make it absolutely crystal clear; you haven't been speaking to anyone who represents GNOME in any way. The signal-to-noise ratio on this list has gotten so bad that actual GNOME contributors have largely stopped reading it. Owen asked this thread to stop for precisely this reason. And yet here we are several days later... WOW! ~ that is not a good sign. it seems almost pointless to even have a gnome-shell list then, if gnome-developers don't even follow it..?!? ...and I probably shouldn't have even bothered with my last comment, being as it will fall on deaf-ears/blind-eyes. - anyone who really matters anyway.. I guess this list is just like the GnomeDesktop youtube channel. Please read: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2011-May/msg00434.html Cheers, Evandro ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Hi Ryan, I hoped that it stopped a long time ago; this thread it just going in circles, as I said. Person A comes in and complains GNOME is unusable, Person B that may or may not represent GNOME (as I don't, to be honest) comes in and says suggestions and clarifies the design, and then Person A says, in general, no, the desktop should be like X, and then Person B (and/or C, another person trying to help) asks why and says that the current setup should work fine, and it keeps going on and on like that. yup, pretty much. I wasn't going in circles, just pointing out some observations. I didn't bother being like Gnome-Shell should have this feature or that one - mostly i was stating that in a few ways, gnome-shell is designed for a particular user in mind (so far), and maybe isn't the best desktop environment for many users who clearly fallout of this scope. I wasn't really making suggestions so much, or trying to start a fight - but to get to my point, i first needed to make some examples. In doing so, I was also trying to point out to Tim, that he can run G3 without gnome-shell. it's totally doable. for those who feel the shell isn't ready, or for whom it's just not the right environment... I was also trying to show there are many ways to efficiently use a gnome desktop. Hopefully, GS will incorporate being just as customizable with any interface - not just keyboards... Anyways, to clarify the user's fault thing (I did not mean to sound rude): lets say you had someone who asked a major car manufacturer why their cars didn't have pedals like a bike. They say, This is a completely different design; it was designed so you do not need pedals to move forward. The user of the vehicle doesn't try to get used to the whole accelerator/brake combo found in cars today, and complains about how their vehicles are unusable and restricting by only allowing this setup. Likewise, I find that the window list is completely unnecessary; if you still use the mouse a lot, you can just flick your mouse to the corner and click the window you wish. lol you're going in circles... and AFAIK stylus' are extremely hard to use in corners! I had given very clear examples, as to why using the keyboard for every task/shortcut isn't good for certain types of users/applications. using a hotkeys is old news - not some new design/model/feature that takes adjustment. Your example again, is not good - you're using the repetitive doesn't try to get used it/give it a chance routine. and that is certainly going around in circles. AFAIK lots of people have given gnome-shell plenty of time. - so, saying the user doesn't try to get used to it, is just as rude and insulting, as saying it's the user's fault. I do agree with you though, that a window list is sort of unnecessary in gnome-shell. but then again, i don't use a panel and use a single dock on my desktop, so it's a moot point for me, really :) That said, as Jason mentioned, I do not represent GNOME. I just really want this thread to die because we get these same threads so often that go around in circles about the same issues that were discussed at length a long time ago (and many times recently as well). I think part of the problem here Ryan, is that it almost really doesn't matter that some of these issues were discussed and resolved a long time ago ~ the reason being - right now gnome 3 is being tested by the majority, not a year ago, or even six months ago. If gnome 3 is to be successful - it is important to consider the masses, not just the 100's that worked on Gnome-Shell. Because naturally, a few hundred people or even 1000 - are not going to notice what a million users would, albeit if much of it is noise ~ you can also bet lots is quite valid - and like i said before - there have been many valid concerns, ignored and treated as noise... i would argue that some of the reason these conversations/issues keep coming up - is because they are valid (not all, or even the vast majority - but many are valid). anyways, Ryan - i am not trying to start some war, you have a great day! :) jordan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
List / Support [Was: We want task bar back. Pretty please.]
On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 15:18 -0400, jordan wrote: thanks Evandro, 1. WOW! ~ that is not a good sign. - This is me saying that i am surprised that more gnome-developers don't follow the list. - nothing more... :) Why? This is normal. Most projects have -devel lists / forums and user lists / forums. 2. it seems almost pointless to even have a gnome-shell list then, if gnome-developers don't even follow it..?!? - this was a valid concern as to the usefulness of the gnome-shell list, not sarcasm. Why? Ask a question about the Shell; there are knowledgable users here. 3. ...and I probably shouldn't have even bothered with my last comment, being as it will fall on deaf-ears/blind-eyes. - anyone who really matters anyway.. I guess this list is just like the GnomeDesktop youtube channel. Why would you consider a YouTube channel to be a support channel or development commentary channel. It isn't. Expecting developers to monitor every venue is ridiculous. this is also stating valid concerns of the usefulness of list that isn't even followed by the gnome project developers. This, even if true, doesn't degrade the usefulness of the list. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: List / Support [Was: We want task bar back. Pretty please.]
Hi Adam, 1. WOW! ~ that is not a good sign. - This is me saying that i am surprised that more gnome-developers don't follow the list. - nothing more... :) Why? This is normal. Most projects have -devel lists / forums and user lists / forums. As Ryan pointed out, there has been so much noise in this list, that compared to the past, much fewer developers follow this list. this list is also neither defined as a devel-list or user-list - it is the gnome-shell-list... 2. it seems almost pointless to even have a gnome-shell list then, if gnome-developers don't even follow it..?!? - this was a valid concern as to the usefulness of the gnome-shell list, not sarcasm. Why? Ask a question about the Shell; there are knowledgable users here. actually, that's valid Adam. However, it still creates a huge disconnect between users and developers if they don't follow the list to some degree or another. 3. ...and I probably shouldn't have even bothered with my last comment, being as it will fall on deaf-ears/blind-eyes. - anyone who really matters anyway.. I guess this list is just like the GnomeDesktop youtube channel. Why would you consider a YouTube channel to be a support channel or development commentary channel. It isn't. Expecting developers to monitor every venue is ridiculous. did I say that i thought the GnomeDesktop channel was a support channel, or development commentary channel no, i did not. FYI - youtube is exactly tha - a place to view content, interact and comment on content. once upon a time, there was commenting on their channel, but because of the negativity, they disabled it. Much in the same way as Ryan stated there is so much noise on this list, developers no longer follow it. that is the comparison, that i was making. this is also stating valid concerns of the usefulness of list that isn't even followed by the gnome project developers. This, even if true, doesn't degrade the usefulness of the list. It doesn't degrade it for the user who is trying to get some quick info on how to fix something or news on some extension, but it does certainly degrade it, in terms of the disconnect between users and the developers. jordan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: New system monitor extension
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Giovanni Campagna scampa.giova...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno sab, 21/05/2011 alle 14.17 +0200, Florian Mounier ha scritto: Hi ! I wrote a gnome shell extension displaying memory / swap / cpu usage in status bar. My code is far from perfect but I thought it might interest some of you. Code is available here: http://github.com/paradoxxxzero/gnome-shell-system-monitor-applet Any feedback is welcome. Best regards I'm afraid you're late. :) There is already a systemMonitor extension in gnome-shell-extension master, that shows CPU and memory using libgtop. Currently it adds an actor in the message tray; if you want to improve it to show a system status indicator, you should patch it and file a bug. Giovanni And libgtop is the way to go anyways. I personally would like to see system monitor in the overview if possible. I think that fits the design much better. System monitor and weather are all tasks so to speak. If you put it in the task bar you're breaking the design as that is where the system applets are. Monitoring your computer is not a system task IMHO. Frankly, I'm very protective what goes into that top bar now as I like keeping it minimalistic and distraction free. A quick hot key will satisfy my curiosity whether the system is running well or not. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Hotkeys vs. Mouse
On Sunday, 22 May, 2011 11:25 AM, Ryan Peters wrote: That is to say, they are forced them to re-learn and cannot see the benefit. Moreover when one of them persists, there is always a convenient answer that involves relearning with a small dose of who cares that it's a bit harder to do x. Will you please stop this? I'm sorry, but you are refusing to give any good examples whatsoever of how it's harder to use the interface and this thread is going in circles because of it (which you blame on me, which isn't the case at all). You are just assuming that, because some people don't like it, that it *has* to be bad, when there are many, many happy GNOME 3 users that don't resort to fallback mode. Please do not respond to this until you stop repeating the same message over and over without examples. GNOME cannot move forward (for your definition of forward) without solid evidence that it would be better to do so; seriously, how can anybody expect GNOME to change without proper reasoning behind it? It would be illogical to do otherwise. The *only* potentially good reason I've heard for, say, wanting a window list, is that some users like using the mouse and don't want to have to use the keyboard. In some (not all) cases this is the fault of the user for not trying to use both of their hands, but in other cases, such as if the user has only one hand or rarely has two hands available, it can be worked around with an extension. There are many, many extensions that enable a GNOME 2-like experience (application menu, icons on the top panel, moving the clock, etc.) and if GNOME 3 *cannot possibly fit into a user's workflow*, some extensions can help remedy that. I am one of those users(who like using their mouse when switching apps, rarely use the alt-tab). The reason for this is if I have a focused application where it was using several keys in the keyboard as a hot key, it might be that hot keys will create conflicts in applications as I have experience in Windows. I might be wrong, but that is my perception as of this moment for not using the hot keys. Regards, Allan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Applications Compatibility
On Monday, 23 May, 2011 01:32 AM, jordan wrote: Will you please stop this? I'm sorry, but you are refusing to give any good examples whatsoever of how it's harder to use the interface and this thread is going in circles because of it (which you blame on me, which isn't the case at all). You are just assuming that, because some people don't like it, that it*has* to be bad, when there are many, many happy GNOME 3 users that don't resort to fallback mode. Please do not respond to this until you stop repeating the same message over and over without examples. GNOME cannot move forward (for your definition of forward) without solid evidence that it would be better to do so; seriously, how can anybody expect GNOME to change without proper reasoning behind it? It would be illogical to do otherwise. I think it is important to point out that there have been just as many unhappy gnome-users as there are happy ones. Gnome has been completely dropped from UbuntuStudio (they don't like Unity or Gnome-Shell), because the gnome-shell workflow is incompatible with what most multimedia-desktop users require, as far as usability is concerned... Mint isn't using gnome-shell and many many many people have switched to Xfce or KDE. This is one I think is a valid concern, I will also be using Multimedia apps for recording and it looks like GNOME Shell is not the right _desktop_ _shell_ at this rate. I remember one poster here who complains, but with no solution for the moment, and for sure he switch to another DE. So my question is, how is GNOME shell was designed from the ground-up with compatibility between applications especially for those 3D apps? Is this a valid concern? I hope for 3.2 things will get easier. I don't plan on using gnome-shell anytime soon, and i know a ton of people who feel the exact same way. No one i work with likes it. My dad had me come over to his place this weekend to replace Gnome-Shell with a Gnome 3 compiz desktop - neither him or my step-mom liked using the shell - AT ALL! ~ they used it for a month - which was plenty of time to adjust - frankly if a DE takes any longer to adjust to - then there is a serious design problem - and cannot be passed of as being the user's own fault/problem My step-mom is your semi-average PC user, she obviously knows her way around windows - she knows her way around OSX, and has been using Linux for alomst a year, now My dad, like myself - works as a sys-admin, and has used most OSes, dating back to CPM. we've had to adjust to many interfaces over the years, and gnome-shell for us has been - by far, the worst DE to have to get used to (and in my case - it isn't even a viable option, currently). I still check in on gnome-shell's progress - ie: i have gnome-shell fully customized, some extensions, themes, etc. I use it every day or so, and also whenever an update comes through. I read blogs and find out about the latest stuff But or me, GS isn't good enough yet, not even close. Tablet/stylus support is terrible and the interraction with the interface can be quite limited, slow and that isn't including other problems (yes, nvidia still sucks in GS compared to compiz - and i am running the latest beta, and also had tried the latest release before moving to nvidia 275.xx) basically we are told that mice/pointing devices are a waste of time, and that we should be using the keyboard (how 1983ish). Then when the person gives an example of the types of applications, they actually are using for their argument/reasoning - it quickly becomes apparent as to why they think the keyboard is the only way to go...ie: they mainly use IDE's, Libre Office, etc. For that type of usage - i would agree the keyboard is probably the best way to go, but what about users who are not using these types of applications, nearly as much??? what about people who use applications like Ardour, Gimp, MyPaint, Firefox, rawstudio, cinepaint, blender, etc...and other types of applications that are actually EASIER and BETTER to use with a pointing device???(any device that isn't a keyboard, essentially) What about the majority of desktop users who aren''t all that interested in relying on a keyboard for every task??? (which happens to be the vast majority fo users)... the truth of the matter is that the best kinds of UI/GUIs are ones that integrate multiple ways of getting any single given task done - not only with a keyboard, but potentially mice, tablets, stylus, multitouch, voice, and hopefully camera's as well, sometime in the future... hopefully, GTK will eventually provide better integration for other types of interfaces, which could solve my issues anyway. In particular i would love to see proper stylus/tablet support... but currently Gnome doesn't provide such facility - and whenever i have seen someone bring up pointing devices - they are told they are wrong to be using their PC in this way - so i would argue some valid points definitely
Already looking for alternatives!
Nic to know the Dev team doesn't care about what the users think. I can see Gnome going out of style real fast! Lets see now; supershiftf2Opens the menu and Ctrltabspace closes the menu! Or, 2 mouse clicks does the same thing! I use Open Office on Windows and I still don't use hotkeys. I'm not about memorize how many key sequences to do a simple mouse task and yes I do a lot of graphics. This will probably be my last go with Ubuntu, period! I'm already looking at KDE and several other alternatives. Everyone needs to turn that Gnome foot around, because it's headed for a giant step backwards. Check the Ubuntu forums some time and see how many people like the Unity desktop! Gnome is destined to become the MS of Linux, pure and simple! -- Bill Dwyer on Linux Ubuntu 11.04 Natty Narwahl Classic Desktop ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Already looking for alternatives!
On Monday, 23 May, 2011 09:41 AM, Bill Dwyer wrote: Nic to know the Dev team doesn't care about what the users think. A recipe for disaster for any project for sure. Many of you will think why some people like me was still reading this list, I just want to know or get informed on user feedbacks, that is my main goal and to get neutral on every issue at hand. I am against = all positive feedbacks as this is against the reality, because there should be issues that needs to be resolved in every 1st release of software, as I am a application developer myself. I still have high hopes for GNOME Shell at least for next 3.2 release and will start from there, this is a decision that I've made, and I cannot make this decision if I not through this list. I hope you will do the same regardless of the deaf ears we currently having. The reason why I'm here is because I need to decide of which desktop shell I will recommend and use= GNOME Classic vs. Unity vs. GNOME Shell vs. KDE for our users = for business and the NGO's computers where I volunteered. So a comment like this: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2011-May/msg00303.html is insulting and counter-productive. They do not know that in the other end, the person may have thousands of users under him who is willing to use GNOME Shell. I can see Gnome going out of style real fast! Lets see now; supershiftf2Opens the menu and Ctrltabspace closes the menu! Or, 2 mouse clicks does the same thing! I use Open Office on Windows and I still don't use hotkeys. I'm not about memorize how many key sequences to do a simple mouse task and yes I do a lot of graphics. This will probably be my last go with Ubuntu, period! I'm already looking at KDE and several other alternatives. Everyone needs to turn that Gnome foot around, because it's headed for a giant step backwards. Check the Ubuntu forums some time and see how many people like the Unity desktop! Gnome is destined to become the MS of Linux, pure and simple! My current understanding is hot key-combinations are only good for some certain users who are developers. But for pro-audio/multimedia/graphic artists, that keyboard shortcuts is a pain. Please give a change for the 3.2 release, my opinion... Regards, Allan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: List / Support [Was: We want task bar back. Pretty please.]
On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 15:18 -0400, jordan wrote: thanks Evandro, 1. WOW! ~ that is not a good sign. - This is me saying that i am surprised that more gnome-developers don't follow the list. - nothing more... :) Why? This is normal. Most projects have -devel lists / forums and user lists / forums. On this point, is there such a distinction for gnome-shell? I'd love to be able to distinguish between devel and user discussions in my mail client... that was my point, to my knowledge their is no gnome-shell-devel-list, there's only the gnome-shell list. jordan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Hotkeys vs. Mouse
I am one of those users(who like using their mouse when switching apps, rarely use the alt-tab). The reason for this is if I have a focused application where it was using several keys in the keyboard as a hot key, it might be that hot keys will create conflicts in applications as I have experience in Windows. I might be wrong, but that is my perception as of this moment for not using the hot keys. as far as mouse usage goes, people have complained ~ i actually haven't used a mouse in a couple of years (at home, anyway). But with a mouse in Gnome-shell you should be able to just move your mouse to the top-left corner, to enter activities and get an overview of your applications and desktops. (this is much more difficult with my Stylus, as it's hard to use hot-corners). As far as conflicts, i don't think that is a big concern. Gnome 3 has very extensive customization of your hotkeys - so i am sure you can tune them anyway you like, while also avoiding any conflicts. I wouldn't worry too much about that one. jordan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
RE: Already looking for alternatives!
This will probably be my last go with Ubuntu, period! I'm already looking at KDE and several other alternatives.But Ubuntu 11.04 doesn't use GNOME Shell, it uses Unity. Everyone needs to turn that Gnome foot around, because it's headed for a giant step backwards. Check the Ubuntu forums some time and see how many people like the Unity desktop!So, wait, does that mean you think Unity is a good interface? If so, why stop using Ubuntu? Gnome is destined to become the MS of Linux, pure and simple! Creators of an incredibly successful OS? I don't think the GNOME devs would have a problem with that at all! ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Applications Compatibility
hi Allen, This is one I think is a valid concern, I will also be using Multimedia apps for recording and it looks like GNOME Shell is not the right _desktop_ _shell_ at this rate. I remember one poster here who complains, but with no solution for the moment, and for sure he switch to another DE. So my question is, how is GNOME shell was designed from the ground-up with compatibility between applications especially for those 3D apps? Is this a valid concern? I hope for 3.2 things will get easier. I've had issues in with 3D acceleration, on my 2 desktop machines (nvidia)... Some applications i use, recommend not using compositors at all however, compiz plays quite nice and works, so i use it - while gnome-shell is hit and miss. I also have issues with screen-casting in gnome-shell - it causes weird visual distortions, searching around youtube, they are some gnome-shell reviews that have similar distortions...im sure it will all get worked out, eventually. That being said, i highly recommend investigating for yourself. You should try Gnome-shell out and see how it works for you, your workflow, and what you want/require out of your desktop... don't take my word or anyone else's on the subject. I think this point is an important one. In general gnome 3 is pretty good, gnome-shell has integrated some cool technologies, but for me it's just not ready though. depending on how you use your machine, your applications, hardware, etc - Gnome-shell might in fact be absolutely awesome, and work really well. so again, i would try it out - give yourself some time to get used to it and see how it works for you. jordan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Applications Compatibility
On Monday, 23 May, 2011 12:30 PM, jordan wrote: hi Allen, This is one I think is a valid concern, I will also be using Multimedia apps for recording and it looks like GNOME Shell is not the right _desktop_ _shell_ at this rate. I remember one poster here who complains, but with no solution for the moment, and for sure he switch to another DE. So my question is, how is GNOME shell was designed from the ground-up with compatibility between applications especially for those 3D apps? Is this a valid concern? I hope for 3.2 things will get easier. I've had issues in with 3D acceleration, on my 2 desktop machines (nvidia)... Some applications i use, recommend not using compositors at all however, compiz plays quite nice and works, so i use it - while gnome-shell is hit and miss. I also have issues with screen-casting in gnome-shell - it causes weird visual distortions, searching around youtube, they are some gnome-shell reviews that have similar distortions...im sure it will all get worked out, eventually. Thank you for your thoughts. It is expected, and I am thankful to the developers who do the hardwork. That being said, i highly recommend investigating for yourself. You should try Gnome-shell out and see how it works for you, your workflow, and what you want/require out of your desktop... don't take my word or anyone else's on the subject. I think this point is an important one. Yes, I should. In general gnome 3 is pretty good, gnome-shell has integrated some cool technologies, but for me it's just not ready though. depending on how you use your machine, your applications, hardware, etc - Gnome-shell might in fact be absolutely awesome, and work really well. so again, i would try it out - give yourself some time to get used to it and see how it works for you. jordan Find Insurance on a car now! http://click.lavabit.com/ox6t3dat1tcwjrfkm6b96ekywaj5hwh85yofi44a5h648qz8dmiy/ ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
