Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Sep 06, 2011 at 07:26:57AM +1200, John Stowers wrote:
> The only concrete point you raised is a note that mistranslated
> applications are not easy to find. Please file a bug against those
> applications.

Agree on the going around in circles. Closing thread.

-- 
Regards,
Olav (moderator)
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[John Stowers]

After the hundreds (thousands?) of words in this thread it is are back
to a fight between hypothetical users. Brilliant.

That is why the world invented pokemon.

The only concrete point you raised is a note that mistranslated
applications are not easy to find. Please file a bug against those
applications.

John


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
 wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 22:22 +1200, John Stowers wrote:
>> On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> > it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
>> > systems much more than allowed by current design. It is also probably
>> > not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
>> > application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
>> > all these icons thrown into overview.
>> The problem is arguments like these are so anecdotal they become
>> uninteresting. For example, my partner has no difficulty with G3, typing
>> 'music' launches rhythmbox
>
> +1

You mean, your partner has no problem launching rhythmbox, too? :)
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
 wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> > I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
>> > be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
>> > convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
>> This is my first problem: what is your target user base? I don't think
>> it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
>> systems much more than allowed by current design.
>
> -1 : on the continued implication of the correlation between "advanced
> users" (those performing sophisticated tasks using a workstation) and
> "tweakers" (those infatuated with playing with UI configuration and
> dressing it up with eye-candy).  As a system and network admin for 20
> years with hundreds of users - these groups have little overlap.

It is your definition of advanced users. By advanced users I mean
those who set up their system to their convenience, not eye-candy.
Those, who install add-on in firefox, or (in Windows) install
alternative browsers, text editors etc.

>
>>  It is also probably
>> not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
>> application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
>> all these icons thrown into overview.
>
> Stop insulting joe-six-pack / "novice" / "average" users.  They aren't
> stupid.  They don't have any issue at all pressing a few keys to perform
> a task.  Once the principle is explained to him joe-six-pack takes to it
> like a fish to water.  Assuming end-users are 'simple' is why we do
> *not* have set-top-boxes, web-tops, thin-clients, etc... in any
> significant number; as all those platforms underestimated the
> sophistication of the end-user and how they interact with their data.
> I'm probably close to loosing my cool if I meet one more hacker bitchin'
> about the "bloat" of LibreOffice, Microsoft Office, platform-X, who in
> the next sentence says,  drum roll.. that they never user a word
> processor.  Who in that scenario is the simpleton?   I just want to ask
> him: OK, how to I insert a foot-note in vi?  And just wait for him [it
> is always a him] to tell me that *I* don't need footnotes.  Wow, thanks
> for clearing that up for me;  all these years I've wasted effort
> complying with decades of coherent document structure!
>

Novice users are not stupid, they are just not technically inclined.
Like people that had flashing 12:00 on their VCRs. And yes, many such
users are afraid or unable to type few letters, or just can not
express what they want in letters. Just one example: small children
require  immediate visibility. If you say to a child "press here to
launch your game", he has no problem to launch it. But if he has to
move mouse to a corner, then type name, it is much more difficult.
Elder people are often in similar situation (for different reasons, of
course).


>> Options probably have a huge cost, but lack of them has huge cost,
>> too.
>
> A sensibly limited number of options approaches perfection!

G3 is very far from that.
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 22:22 +1200, John Stowers wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> > it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
> > systems much more than allowed by current design. It is also probably
> > not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
> > application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
> > all these icons thrown into overview.
> The problem is arguments like these are so anecdotal they become
> uninteresting. For example, my partner has no difficulty with G3, typing
> 'music' launches rhythmbox

+1

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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> > I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
> > be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
> > convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
> This is my first problem: what is your target user base? I don't think
> it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
> systems much more than allowed by current design.

-1 : on the continued implication of the correlation between "advanced
users" (those performing sophisticated tasks using a workstation) and
"tweakers" (those infatuated with playing with UI configuration and
dressing it up with eye-candy).  As a system and network admin for 20
years with hundreds of users - these groups have little overlap.

>  It is also probably
> not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
> application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
> all these icons thrown into overview.

Stop insulting joe-six-pack / "novice" / "average" users.  They aren't
stupid.  They don't have any issue at all pressing a few keys to perform
a task.  Once the principle is explained to him joe-six-pack takes to it
like a fish to water.  Assuming end-users are 'simple' is why we do
*not* have set-top-boxes, web-tops, thin-clients, etc... in any
significant number; as all those platforms underestimated the
sophistication of the end-user and how they interact with their data.
I'm probably close to loosing my cool if I meet one more hacker bitchin'
about the "bloat" of LibreOffice, Microsoft Office, platform-X, who in
the next sentence says,  drum roll.. that they never user a word
processor.  Who in that scenario is the simpleton?   I just want to ask
him: OK, how to I insert a foot-note in vi?  And just wait for him [it
is always a him] to tell me that *I* don't need footnotes.  Wow, thanks
for clearing that up for me;  all these years I've wasted effort
complying with decades of coherent document structure! 

> Options probably have a huge cost, but lack of them has huge cost,
> too. 

A sensibly limited number of options approaches perfection!

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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 8:55 AM, John Stowers
 wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 08:47 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:22 PM, John Stowers
>>  wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> >> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Giovanni Campagna
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> > Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
>> >> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> >> >> >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
>> >> >> >> attitude of developers
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I don't feel insulted at all.
>> >> >> Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
>> >> >> other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> First of all, thank you for an answer.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
>> >> > be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
>> >> > convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
>> >>
>> >> This is my first problem: what is your target user base? I don't think
>> >> it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
>> >> systems much more than allowed by current design. It is also probably
>> >> not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
>> >> application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
>> >> all these icons thrown into overview.
>> >
>> > The problem is arguments like these are so anecdotal they become
>> > uninteresting. For example, my partner has no difficulty with G3, typing
>> > 'music' launches rhythmbox (i.e. no need to know the program name) and
>>
>> This argument is even less interesting. I'm glad your partner has no
>> problem with G3. I know enough people that do.
>
> I know N+1 that dont! (see my point?).
>
> I'm not entirely dismissing your criticism, I just think it would be
> more useful if more detailed or more structured (for example broken into
> chunks on bz, etc).
>
> Note, in the interests of fairness I am also a little disappointed that
> the shell was not accompanied by more detailed and recorded user
> testing.
>
>>
>> > this icon based launcher is familiar to smartphone users.
>> Then G3 is probably good for smartphones. But I tried to run it on a
>> PC and it's a mess. Especially, if you use it with language other than
>> English.
>
> The english thing sounds like a bug.
>

Translation is never in perfect state, especially for programs coming
from 3-rd party repositories. Some programs simply don't have
translated name or description, so one must type it in English to find
them. In some cases there is no consistent terminology at all.
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[John Stowers]

On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 08:47 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:22 PM, John Stowers
>  wrote:
> > On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> >> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Giovanni Campagna
> >>  wrote:
> >> > Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
> >> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> >> >>  wrote:
> >> >> > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> >> >> >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
> >> >> >> attitude of developers
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't feel insulted at all.
> >> >> Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
> >> >> other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.
> >> >
> >>
> >> First of all, thank you for an answer.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
> >> > be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
> >> > convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
> >>
> >> This is my first problem: what is your target user base? I don't think
> >> it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
> >> systems much more than allowed by current design. It is also probably
> >> not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
> >> application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
> >> all these icons thrown into overview.
> >
> > The problem is arguments like these are so anecdotal they become
> > uninteresting. For example, my partner has no difficulty with G3, typing
> > 'music' launches rhythmbox (i.e. no need to know the program name) and
> 
> This argument is even less interesting. I'm glad your partner has no
> problem with G3. I know enough people that do.

I know N+1 that dont! (see my point?).

I'm not entirely dismissing your criticism, I just think it would be
more useful if more detailed or more structured (for example broken into
chunks on bz, etc).

Note, in the interests of fairness I am also a little disappointed that
the shell was not accompanied by more detailed and recorded user
testing.

> 
> > this icon based launcher is familiar to smartphone users.
> Then G3 is probably good for smartphones. But I tried to run it on a
> PC and it's a mess. Especially, if you use it with language other than
> English.

The english thing sounds like a bug.

John



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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:22 PM, John Stowers
 wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Giovanni Campagna
>>  wrote:
>> > Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
>> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> >> >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
>> >> >> attitude of developers
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't feel insulted at all.
>> >> Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
>> >> other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.
>> >
>>
>> First of all, thank you for an answer.
>>
>> >
>> > I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
>> > be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
>> > convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
>>
>> This is my first problem: what is your target user base? I don't think
>> it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
>> systems much more than allowed by current design. It is also probably
>> not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
>> application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
>> all these icons thrown into overview.
>
> The problem is arguments like these are so anecdotal they become
> uninteresting. For example, my partner has no difficulty with G3, typing
> 'music' launches rhythmbox (i.e. no need to know the program name) and

This argument is even less interesting. I'm glad your partner has no
problem with G3. I know enough people that do.

> this icon based launcher is familiar to smartphone users.
Then G3 is probably good for smartphones. But I tried to run it on a
PC and it's a mess. Especially, if you use it with language other than
English.
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Wouter De Borger]

Selfish <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_Dictator_For_Life>, yes, or
rather self-assured
lazy, that is not even possible as you are open source developers that
clearly get results



On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 15:05, Mark Curtis  wrote:

> >I think it is better to say "We are not doing X because we don't like it"
> or>"We are not doing X because is is too much work" or "We are not doing
> X>because would screw up a lot of other things"
>
> So you'd rather the developers sound selfish and lazy?
>
> ----------
> Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 17:34:46 +0200
>
> Subject: Re: Disliking gnome 3
> From: w.debor...@gmail.com
> To: scampa.giova...@gmail.com
> CC: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org
>
>
> Dear Giovanni,
>
> Thank you for your very polite and well formulated answer.
>
> Your reply makes clear that the patronizing attitude is (as expected)
> totally coincidental.
> Yet I also share Ben's feelings.
>
> I think it is a communications problem. To many people, the changes are an
> inconvenience. And while most people will learn to live with them, you
> should handle everyone with care until they are hooked. I think you should
> be very careful never to make statements that imply something about the
> user.
> When you say "We don't do X it because we want to encourage behavior Y" or
> "We don't do X because no one needs it" or "We don't do X because it takes
> up screen size" you make a statement that may be untrue or irrelevant for
> many users. When they read this, you lose their support.  I think it is
> better to say "We are not doing X because we don't like it" or "We are not
> doing X because is is too much work" or "We are not doing X because would
> screw up a lot of other things". Why? Because those statements are about
> you. To others they may be unpleasant, but never patronizing.
>
>
> Wouter
>
> PS: could you provide a reference to the user studies you refer to?
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 15:55, Giovanni Campagna  > wrote:
>
> Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
> > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> >  wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> > >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
> > >> attitude of developers
> > >
> > > I don't feel insulted at all.
> > Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
> > other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.
>
> I'm very sorry, and I think I can speak for the whole team when I say
> that nobody meant to insult you (the rest of this mail, otoh, is my
> personal view). Our attitude is not "we know better", instead it tries
> to look at problems of the average computer user (real problems,
> reported by years of usability study), and to solve in a different and
> innovative way.
> By applying fundamental shifts in the workflow (that we acknowledge
> require some initial migration cost), we focus on solving the basic
> underlying problems, rather than adapt ourselves to the solutions our
> users developed by themselves, absent a coherent usability design.
>
> I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
> be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
> convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
> the other hand, trying to cater for too many use patterns and workflow
> would increase the complexity of the overall system, not just in terms
> of code (which is not irrelevant) but also in terms of usability.
> Options have a huge cost, because users will either flee, scared by the
> the risk of breaking everything, or they will start asking and craving
> the documentation, just to find out it was something completely useless
> to them, because it broke the basic design pattern. Or even worse, the
> option could be exposing what is really an implementation detail (such
> as the panel applet configuration in 2.*).
>
> Nevertheless, as we still want to enlarge our user base and grow our
> market share (with the ultimate goal of supplanting proprietary software
> around the world), we are providing you with a powerful instrument that
> basically allows you to build your own shell: extensions. It's true, the
> system was not complete in 3.0, and it required manual interaction as
> well as not having a complete repository. On the other hand, in 3.2
> installing extensions will be as simple as going to
> extensions.gnome.org, findi

Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Evandro Giovanini]

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Mark Curtis  wrote:
>>I think it is better to say "We are not doing X because we don't like it"
>> or>"We are not doing X because is is too much work" or "We are not doing
>> X>because would screw up a lot of other things"
>
> So you'd rather the developers sound selfish and lazy?
>
>

That's an odd thing to say about free software developers.

Cheers,
Evandro
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RE: Disliking gnome 3

[Mark Curtis]

>I think it is better to say "We are not doing X because we don't like it" 
>or>"We are not doing X because is is too much work" or "We are not doing 
>X>because would screw up a lot of other things"

So you'd rather the developers sound selfish and lazy?

Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 17:34:46 +0200
Subject: Re: Disliking gnome 3
From: w.debor...@gmail.com
To: scampa.giova...@gmail.com
CC: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for your very polite and well formulated answer. 

Your reply makes clear that the patronizing attitude is (as expected) totally 
coincidental. 
Yet I also share Ben's feelings. 


I think it is a communications problem. To many people, the changes are an 
inconvenience. And while most people will learn to live with them, you should 
handle everyone with care until they are hooked. I think you should be very 
careful never to make statements that imply something about the user. 

When you say "We don't do X it because we want to encourage behavior Y" or  "We 
don't
 do X because no one needs it" or "We don't do X because it takes up 
screen size" you make a statement that may be untrue or irrelevant for many 
users. When they read this, you lose their support.  I think it is better to 
say "We are not doing X because we don't like it" or "We are not doing X 
because is is too much work" or "We are not doing X because would screw up a 
lot of other things". Why? Because those statements are about you. To others 
they may be unpleasant, but never patronizing. 



Wouter

PS: could you provide a reference to the user studies you refer to?




On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 15:55, Giovanni Campagna  
wrote:

Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:

> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams

>  wrote:

> > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:

> >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting

> >> attitude of developers

> >

> > I don't feel insulted at all.

> Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some

> other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.



I'm very sorry, and I think I can speak for the whole team when I say

that nobody meant to insult you (the rest of this mail, otoh, is my

personal view). Our attitude is not "we know better", instead it tries

to look at problems of the average computer user (real problems,

reported by years of usability study), and to solve in a different and

innovative way.

By applying fundamental shifts in the workflow (that we acknowledge

require some initial migration cost), we focus on solving the basic

underlying problems, rather than adapt ourselves to the solutions our

users developed by themselves, absent a coherent usability design.



I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may

be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still

convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On

the other hand, trying to cater for too many use patterns and workflow

would increase the complexity of the overall system, not just in terms

of code (which is not irrelevant) but also in terms of usability.

Options have a huge cost, because users will either flee, scared by the

the risk of breaking everything, or they will start asking and craving

the documentation, just to find out it was something completely useless

to them, because it broke the basic design pattern. Or even worse, the

option could be exposing what is really an implementation detail (such

as the panel applet configuration in 2.*).



Nevertheless, as we still want to enlarge our user base and grow our

market share (with the ultimate goal of supplanting proprietary software

around the world), we are providing you with a powerful instrument that

basically allows you to build your own shell: extensions. It's true, the

system was not complete in 3.0, and it required manual interaction as

well as not having a complete repository. On the other hand, in 3.2

installing extensions will be as simple as going to

extensions.gnome.org, finding what you need and pressing a button.

We already have extensions that restore much of the GNOME 2

functionality (a dock, an application menu, a workspace switcher, a

window based alt-tab, just to name a few), and we expect the number to

increase release after release. And of course, since you quote Linus, if

you don't find something that suits, you know what to do.



Hoping this clarified our vision and hoping that there won't be any

further misunderstanding,



Giovanni Campagna


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Maciej Marcin Piechotka]

On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 13:57 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:
> On 08/31/2011 01:53 PM, John Stowers wrote:
> 
> >> On gnome-2, I could load a system from bare metal and use it with zero 
> >> tweaks to gnome,
> >> aside from dragging a Terminal icon into the top bar, maybe adding a few 
> >> applets.
> >>
> >
> > Out of interest, which applets?
> 
> system monitor.
> 
> Evidently you can find the thing for G3 as well, I haven't tried yet...maybe
> it will be part of the default install soon...
> 
> Ben


In gnome-shell extentions there is system monitor plugin. It is not so
advanced yet and not configurable at all - but it exists.

Regards


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[John Stowers]

On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 09:15 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Giovanni Campagna
>  wrote:
> > Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> >>  wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> >> >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
> >> >> attitude of developers
> >> >
> >> > I don't feel insulted at all.
> >> Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
> >> other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.
> >
> 
> First of all, thank you for an answer.
> 
> >
> > I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
> > be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
> > convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
> 
> This is my first problem: what is your target user base? I don't think
> it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
> systems much more than allowed by current design. It is also probably
> not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
> application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
> all these icons thrown into overview.

The problem is arguments like these are so anecdotal they become
uninteresting. For example, my partner has no difficulty with G3, typing
'music' launches rhythmbox (i.e. no need to know the program name) and
this icon based launcher is familiar to smartphone users.

John


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Giovanni Campagna
 wrote:
> Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>>  wrote:
>> > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
>> >> attitude of developers
>> >
>> > I don't feel insulted at all.
>> Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
>> other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.
>

First of all, thank you for an answer.

>
> I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
> be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
> convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On

This is my first problem: what is your target user base? I don't think
it is "advanced" users, since they usually want to customize their
systems much more than allowed by current design. It is also probably
not "novice" users - for example I don't see my mother typing
application name anytime soon, and she will definitely feel lost in
all these icons thrown into overview.

> the other hand, trying to cater for too many use patterns and workflow
> would increase the complexity of the overall system, not just in terms
> of code (which is not irrelevant) but also in terms of usability.
> Options have a huge cost, because users will either flee, scared by the
> the risk of breaking everything, or they will start asking and craving
> the documentation, just to find out it was something completely useless
> to them, because it broke the basic design pattern. Or even worse, the
> option could be exposing what is really an implementation detail (such
> as the panel applet configuration in 2.*).

Options probably have a huge cost, but lack of them has huge cost,
too. As I said already, there are people with different tastes and
personal preferences, things that look beautiful logical and
convenient to you, may look ugly, illogical and inconvenient to
others.


>
> Nevertheless, as we still want to enlarge our user base and grow our
> market share (with the ultimate goal of supplanting proprietary software
> around the world), we are providing you with a powerful instrument that
> basically allows you to build your own shell: extensions. It's true, the
> system was not complete in 3.0, and it required manual interaction as
> well as not having a complete repository. On the other hand, in 3.2
> installing extensions will be as simple as going to
> extensions.gnome.org, finding what you need and pressing a button.
> We already have extensions that restore much of the GNOME 2
> functionality (a dock, an application menu, a workspace switcher, a
> window based alt-tab, just to name a few), and we expect the number to
> increase release after release. And of course, since you quote Linus, if
> you don't find something that suits, you know what to do.

Yet again, I don't think extensions is the right answer. Extensions
are good for providing new functionality, not for providing what
really should be a checkbox away. My (oversimplified) view of what I
would like to see, is something like gnome-tweak-tool, which would
come with all extensions you mentioned and would allow to switch
on/off individual options.


>
> Hoping this clarified our vision and hoping that there won't be any
> further misunderstanding,
>
> Giovanni Campagna
>
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Wouter De Borger]

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for your very polite and well formulated answer.

Your reply makes clear that the patronizing attitude is (as expected)
totally coincidental.
Yet I also share Ben's feelings.

I think it is a communications problem. To many people, the changes are an
inconvenience. And while most people will learn to live with them, you
should handle everyone with care until they are hooked. I think you should
be very careful never to make statements that imply something about the
user.
When you say "We don't do X it because we want to encourage behavior Y" or
"We don't do X because no one needs it" or "We don't do X because it takes
up screen size" you make a statement that may be untrue or irrelevant for
many users. When they read this, you lose their support.  I think it is
better to say "We are not doing X because we don't like it" or "We are not
doing X because is is too much work" or "We are not doing X because would
screw up a lot of other things". Why? Because those statements are about
you. To others they may be unpleasant, but never patronizing.


Wouter

PS: could you provide a reference to the user studies you refer to?




On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 15:55, Giovanni Campagna
wrote:

> Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
> > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> >  wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> > >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
> > >> attitude of developers
> > >
> > > I don't feel insulted at all.
> > Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
> > other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.
>
> I'm very sorry, and I think I can speak for the whole team when I say
> that nobody meant to insult you (the rest of this mail, otoh, is my
> personal view). Our attitude is not "we know better", instead it tries
> to look at problems of the average computer user (real problems,
> reported by years of usability study), and to solve in a different and
> innovative way.
> By applying fundamental shifts in the workflow (that we acknowledge
> require some initial migration cost), we focus on solving the basic
> underlying problems, rather than adapt ourselves to the solutions our
> users developed by themselves, absent a coherent usability design.
>
> I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
> be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
> convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
> the other hand, trying to cater for too many use patterns and workflow
> would increase the complexity of the overall system, not just in terms
> of code (which is not irrelevant) but also in terms of usability.
> Options have a huge cost, because users will either flee, scared by the
> the risk of breaking everything, or they will start asking and craving
> the documentation, just to find out it was something completely useless
> to them, because it broke the basic design pattern. Or even worse, the
> option could be exposing what is really an implementation detail (such
> as the panel applet configuration in 2.*).
>
> Nevertheless, as we still want to enlarge our user base and grow our
> market share (with the ultimate goal of supplanting proprietary software
> around the world), we are providing you with a powerful instrument that
> basically allows you to build your own shell: extensions. It's true, the
> system was not complete in 3.0, and it required manual interaction as
> well as not having a complete repository. On the other hand, in 3.2
> installing extensions will be as simple as going to
> extensions.gnome.org, finding what you need and pressing a button.
> We already have extensions that restore much of the GNOME 2
> functionality (a dock, an application menu, a workspace switcher, a
> window based alt-tab, just to name a few), and we expect the number to
> increase release after release. And of course, since you quote Linus, if
> you don't find something that suits, you know what to do.
>
> Hoping this clarified our vision and hoping that there won't be any
> further misunderstanding,
>
> Giovanni Campagna
>
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Giovanni Campagna]

Il giorno gio, 01/09/2011 alle 21.42 +0300, Pasha R ha scritto:
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> >> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
> >> attitude of developers
> >
> > I don't feel insulted at all.
> Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
> other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.

I'm very sorry, and I think I can speak for the whole team when I say
that nobody meant to insult you (the rest of this mail, otoh, is my
personal view). Our attitude is not "we know better", instead it tries
to look at problems of the average computer user (real problems,
reported by years of usability study), and to solve in a different and
innovative way.
By applying fundamental shifts in the workflow (that we acknowledge
require some initial migration cost), we focus on solving the basic
underlying problems, rather than adapt ourselves to the solutions our
users developed by themselves, absent a coherent usability design.

I concede that our solutions are not meant for everybody, as there may
be people with different conflicting requirements, but we're still
convinced they apply for the vast majority of our target user base. On
the other hand, trying to cater for too many use patterns and workflow
would increase the complexity of the overall system, not just in terms
of code (which is not irrelevant) but also in terms of usability.
Options have a huge cost, because users will either flee, scared by the
the risk of breaking everything, or they will start asking and craving
the documentation, just to find out it was something completely useless
to them, because it broke the basic design pattern. Or even worse, the
option could be exposing what is really an implementation detail (such
as the panel applet configuration in 2.*).

Nevertheless, as we still want to enlarge our user base and grow our
market share (with the ultimate goal of supplanting proprietary software
around the world), we are providing you with a powerful instrument that
basically allows you to build your own shell: extensions. It's true, the
system was not complete in 3.0, and it required manual interaction as
well as not having a complete repository. On the other hand, in 3.2
installing extensions will be as simple as going to
extensions.gnome.org, finding what you need and pressing a button.
We already have extensions that restore much of the GNOME 2
functionality (a dock, an application menu, a workspace switcher, a
window based alt-tab, just to name a few), and we expect the number to
increase release after release. And of course, since you quote Linus, if
you don't find something that suits, you know what to do.

Hoping this clarified our vision and hoping that there won't be any
further misunderstanding,

Giovanni Campagna


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
 wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
>> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
>> attitude of developers
>
> I don't feel insulted at all.
Good for you. I find an attitude commonly expressed on this and some
other lists "we know better what you should want" insulting.

>
>> that think that they know better what I should
>> or shouldn't want to do with my computer.
>
> This is *always* true;  they have a vision and a goal.  Good for them.

It would be good for them if they did it for themselves. But they
supposed to do it for other users, too, and failing to acknowledge
that there are many different types of users with different needs and
different personal preferences is one of the reasons people running
away from G3.

>
>
>> small part of the functionality I could setup with few mouse clicks
>> with G2.
>
> Such as?
Such as applets, custom shortcuts on panel, screensaver etc.

>
>> The almost mindless action of launching new application now
>> became a full-scale "activity", and going there actually distracts me
>> from my work.
>
> Really?  ,g,e, ... and there is gedit. I have no idea how
> that is distracting.
>

Well, I prefer to do these thing with mouse, and not with keyboard.
Also, overview moves me to totally different view, which is
distracting.

>> The list can go on and on, and in general, I think Linus
>> summed it all up very well.
>
> Ow, playing the "Linus card".
It has nothing to do with "Linus card". If you really want, you can
look in this list and fedora list archives what I said about G3 when
F15 came out. It was way before Linus expressed his opinion. But since
his view of subject is mostly similar to mine and well written I save
my time and few electrons and refer to his opinion instead of
repeating it in different words.
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 18:16 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
> My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
> attitude of developers 

I don't feel insulted at all.

> that think that they know better what I should
> or shouldn't want to do with my computer. 

This is *always* true;  they have a vision and a goal.  Good for them.


> small part of the functionality I could setup with few mouse clicks
> with G2. 

Such as?

> The almost mindless action of launching new application now
> became a full-scale "activity", and going there actually distracts me
> from my work. 

Really?  ,g,e, ... and there is gedit. I have no idea how
that is distracting.

> The list can go on and on, and in general, I think Linus
> summed it all up very well.

Ow, playing the "Linus card".


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Jasper St. Pierre
 wrote:
> n Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Pasha R  wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:
>>> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
>>> so I'm posting here.
>>>
>>> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
>>> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
>>> open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
>>> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
>>> to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
>>> Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
>>> select
>>> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
>>>
>>> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
>>> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
>>> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
>>> so badly.
>>>
>>> I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
>>> F16 or F17.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>
>> Welcome to the club. But, IMHO, complaining here won't help -
>> developers repeatedly stated that they won't change anything, and
>> probably will make things even worse. I'm staying with F14 while it is
>> supported and looking at KDE and XFCE as a possible future
>> replacement.
>
> If you find that GNOME3 doesn't work for you, feel free to change to
> another desktop environment. No offence taken. It's not for everyone,
> and GNOME 3.0 was a bit unstable and buggy. If it was perfect, I'd be
> out of a job :). We're making changes every day, hopefully to be a bit
> better.
>
> A somewhat overarching theme of GNOME 3.2, and GNOME3 in general is to
> recognize how online services influence how people use computers and
> provide conveniently integration with IM, email, and for now, Google
> Documents. Some might feel a bit offended or scared of better online
> integration. If you are, feel free to change to another desktop
> environment. And we are sort of venturing into the unexplored here for
> a desktop environment, and we may not make the best choices all the
> time, and we're not going to be perfect from day one.
>
> (I'm using the "we" pronoun to conveniently refer to the GNOME desktop
> environment and its developers, but this is my opinion)
>
> (and a PSA: if you have any specific "doesn't work" complaints:
> crashes, slow, instability, something happened that you have
> reasonable belief to expect wasn't normal, please file bugs: I get
> frustrated when someone points out a bug on reddit or on a blog, and
> I've never seen it reported, even though it's a bug that we probably
> would have fixed.)
>
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>
> --
>   Jasper
>

No, my problem is not limited to bugs, that wouldn't stop me from using GNOME :)

My problem is that shell is simply inconvenient to use and insulting
attitude of developers that think that they know better what I should
or shouldn't want to do with my computer. Extensions, at least in
their current state, resolve my usability problems very poorly. With a
lot of effort of hunting extensions all over the internet, I regain
small part of the functionality I could setup with few mouse clicks
with G2. The almost mindless action of launching new application now
became a full-scale "activity", and going there actually distracts me
from my work. The list can go on and on, and in general, I think Linus
summed it all up very well.
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Ralph Hofmann  wrote:

>  Am 31.08.2011 20:03, schrieb Sriram Ramkrishna:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Ralph Hofmann wrote:
>
>>
>> I like the idea of javascript based plugins like in Firefox. I think that
>> could become the killer feature of Gnome3. Of course Gnome3 is far from
>> ready now. But is has a lot of potential. Potential discoverable by the
>> user.
>>
>
> The killer feature is GObject and GObject introspection.  We've had that
> for a number of years, but it is now front and center.
>
> sri
>
>
> Why GObject and GObject introspection?
>
> I look at it from a user's, you from a developer's perspective.
>
>
Well, plugin development is a developer feature that translates to cool
plugins for users.  But GObject provides the mechanism for that plugin
development.  If you have a library written in GObject it will be accessible
from the extensions system.

sri
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[D.H. Bahr]

I totally agree with you.
Yes: G3 sets a new paradigm in User Experience, AND that's one of the
great things about it. Of course it needs work, otherwise, as Jasper
implied earlier, it would be perfect, and not being perfect (I've known
little or no perfect thing in my lifetime) is fun for developers. Still,
I think users with less reticence to change will find G3 as a great work
on progress, perfectly usable for daily work. Those who find it annoying
should simply switch to a different Desktop Environment (G2 or else).

Best regards,
-- 

 Sw.E. D.H. Bahr
 Nova Desktop Development Leader
  CESOL (Free/Libre Software Centre)
UCI (University of Informatics Sciences)
Havana, Cuba




El Thu, 01-09-2011 a las 14:12 +0100, Steve Sheldon escribió: 

> Hiya,
>  
> On G2 I almost always used 2 or 3 virtual desktops to keep tabs of
> everything, but with G3 I found that having more than 1 virtual
> desktop is difficult to keep tabs on if you'll excuse the pun..
> instead it seems easier to use the alt tab for task switching, and the
> windows key to get to the application overview screen. The only
> frustration is that I cannot tell what I have running, other than what
> is onscreen, unless I go to the overview screen which means I am
> having to remember what I have running. In all other respects I am
> very happy with G3 now I have had time to really try it out.. the
> application search if using the windows key and first few char of app
> name is faster than the mouse based menu system G2 has, and G3 does
> seem to be at least as stable as G2 so yes, it *is* a work in progress
> but perfectly workable, with justy a few features missing, and far far
> more polished than the Unity interface.
>  
> Regards
> Steve Sheldon
> 
> >>> Adam Tauno Williams  01/09/2011 13:52:15
> >>>
> On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 17:25 -0400, Jesse Hutton wrote:
> 
> > I thought this would naturally be the case, as well. However, I've
> > recently read in #gnome-design two different *lead* designers claim
> to
> > not use workspaces. Both instances were in the context of discussing
> > issues people found, so maybe it these were off-hand comments as a
> > basis to claim ignorance. Nonetheless, apparently you *don't* need
> to
> > use workspaces to enjoy Gnome Shell.
> 
> Certainly, and I don't see why Shell would be hard to use in a single
> workspace.  When I'm out and about I typically use G3 in a single
> workspace,  the improved window switching and activity overview makes
> many-windows-in-a-workspace much easier to use than under G2
> 
> 
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> Please reply immediately if you receive this e-mail in error and then
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Steve Sheldon]

Hiya,
 
On G2 I almost always used 2 or 3 virtual desktops to keep tabs of everything, 
but with G3 I found that having more than 1 virtual desktop is difficult to 
keep tabs on if you'll excuse the pun.. instead it seems easier to use the alt 
tab for task switching, and the windows key to get to the application overview 
screen. The only frustration is that I cannot tell what I have running, other 
than what is onscreen, unless I go to the overview screen which means I am 
having to remember what I have running. In all other respects I am very happy 
with G3 now I have had time to really try it out.. the application search if 
using the windows key and first few char of app name is faster than the mouse 
based menu system G2 has, and G3 does seem to be at least as stable as G2 so 
yes, it *is* a work in progress but perfectly workable, with justy a few 
features missing, and far far more polished than the Unity interface.
 
Regards
Steve Sheldon

>>> Adam Tauno Williams  01/09/2011 13:52:15 >>>
On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 17:25 -0400, Jesse Hutton wrote:

> I thought this would naturally be the case, as well. However, I've
> recently read in #gnome-design two different *lead* designers claim to
> not use workspaces. Both instances were in the context of discussing
> issues people found, so maybe it these were off-hand comments as a
> basis to claim ignorance. Nonetheless, apparently you *don't* need to
> use workspaces to enjoy Gnome Shell.

Certainly, and I don't see why Shell would be hard to use in a single
workspace.  When I'm out and about I typically use G3 in a single
workspace,  the improved window switching and activity overview makes
many-windows-in-a-workspace much easier to use than under G2


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 17:25 -0400, Jesse Hutton wrote:

> I thought this would naturally be the case, as well. However, I've
> recently read in #gnome-design two different *lead* designers claim to
> not use workspaces. Both instances were in the context of discussing
> issues people found, so maybe it these were off-hand comments as a
> basis to claim ignorance. Nonetheless, apparently you *don't* need to
> use workspaces to enjoy Gnome Shell.

Certainly, and I don't see why Shell would be hard to use in a single
workspace.  When I'm out and about I typically use G3 in a single
workspace,  the improved window switching and activity overview makes
many-windows-in-a-workspace much easier to use than under G2


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 14:29 +0200, Ralph Hofmann wrote:
> Am 31.08.2011 20:03, schrieb Sriram Ramkrishna: 

> > The killer feature is GObject and GObject introspection.  We've had
> > that for a number of years, but it is now front and center.
> Why GObject and GObject introspection?
> I look at it from a user's, you from a developer's perspective.

When you make things easier for developers, you pave the road for making
things better for users.  That's just how it flows.

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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ralph Hofmann]

Am 31.08.2011 20:03, schrieb Sriram Ramkrishna:



On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Ralph Hofmann > wrote:



I like the idea of javascript based plugins like in Firefox. I
think that could become the killer feature of Gnome3. Of course
Gnome3 is far from ready now. But is has a lot of potential.
Potential discoverable by the user.


The killer feature is GObject and GObject introspection.  We've had 
that for a number of years, but it is now front and center.


sri


Why GObject and GObject introspection?

I look at it from a user's, you from a developer's perspective.

Ralph
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Jesse Hutton]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:53 PM, John Stowers
wrote:

>
> > I use a single work-space.  I tried multiple before, but it just never
> worked out for me.
>
> While you only use a single workspace G3 is going to be hard for you.


I thought this would naturally be the case, as well. However, I've recently
read in #gnome-design two different *lead* designers claim to not use
workspaces. Both instances were in the context of discussing issues people
found, so maybe it these were off-hand comments as a basis to claim
ignorance. Nonetheless, apparently you *don't* need to use workspaces to
enjoy Gnome Shell.

Jesse
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

On 08/31/2011 01:53 PM, John Stowers wrote:


On gnome-2, I could load a system from bare metal and use it with zero tweaks 
to gnome,
aside from dragging a Terminal icon into the top bar, maybe adding a few 
applets.



Out of interest, which applets?


system monitor.

Evidently you can find the thing for G3 as well, I haven't tried yet...maybe
it will be part of the default install soon...

Ben



John



Thanks,
Ben






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Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[John Stowers]

> I use a single work-space.  I tried multiple before, but it just never worked 
> out for me.

While you only use a single workspace G3 is going to be hard for you.

> 
> On gnome-2, I could load a system from bare metal and use it with zero tweaks 
> to gnome,
> aside from dragging a Terminal icon into the top bar, maybe adding a few 
> applets.
> 

Out of interest, which applets?

John


> Thanks,
> Ben
> 


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

On 08/31/2011 11:46 AM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote:

n Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Pasha R  wrote:

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:

I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
so I'm posting here.

I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
select
from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.

Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
so badly.

I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
F16 or F17.

Thanks,
Ben



Welcome to the club. But, IMHO, complaining here won't help -
developers repeatedly stated that they won't change anything, and
probably will make things even worse. I'm staying with F14 while it is
supported and looking at KDE and XFCE as a possible future
replacement.


If you find that GNOME3 doesn't work for you, feel free to change to
another desktop environment. No offence taken. It's not for everyone,
and GNOME 3.0 was a bit unstable and buggy. If it was perfect, I'd be
out of a job :). We're making changes every day, hopefully to be a bit
better.

A somewhat overarching theme of GNOME 3.2, and GNOME3 in general is to
recognize how online services influence how people use computers and
provide conveniently integration with IM, email, and for now, Google
Documents. Some might feel a bit offended or scared of better online
integration. If you are, feel free to change to another desktop
environment. And we are sort of venturing into the unexplored here for
a desktop environment, and we may not make the best choices all the
time, and we're not going to be perfect from day one.


You can obviously support the older look, because it works in fallback mode.
As long as that remains functional, folks such as myself can probably continue
to use gnome3.  If you want to optimize the non-fallback mode for
laptops and touchpads and cloud stuff and whatnot, that's fine by me.  Just
keep the old look functional too.  I'm sure the vast majority of the gnome
code is common to those two modes, so you still get the benefit of scale
and bug reports...

Thanks,
Ben

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Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Jasper St. Pierre]

n Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Pasha R  wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:
>> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
>> so I'm posting here.
>>
>> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
>> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
>> open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
>> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
>> to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
>> Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
>> select
>> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
>>
>> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
>> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
>> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
>> so badly.
>>
>> I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
>> F16 or F17.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>>
>
> Welcome to the club. But, IMHO, complaining here won't help -
> developers repeatedly stated that they won't change anything, and
> probably will make things even worse. I'm staying with F14 while it is
> supported and looking at KDE and XFCE as a possible future
> replacement.

If you find that GNOME3 doesn't work for you, feel free to change to
another desktop environment. No offence taken. It's not for everyone,
and GNOME 3.0 was a bit unstable and buggy. If it was perfect, I'd be
out of a job :). We're making changes every day, hopefully to be a bit
better.

A somewhat overarching theme of GNOME 3.2, and GNOME3 in general is to
recognize how online services influence how people use computers and
provide conveniently integration with IM, email, and for now, Google
Documents. Some might feel a bit offended or scared of better online
integration. If you are, feel free to change to another desktop
environment. And we are sort of venturing into the unexplored here for
a desktop environment, and we may not make the best choices all the
time, and we're not going to be perfect from day one.

(I'm using the "we" pronoun to conveniently refer to the GNOME desktop
environment and its developers, but this is my opinion)

(and a PSA: if you have any specific "doesn't work" complaints:
crashes, slow, instability, something happened that you have
reasonable belief to expect wasn't normal, please file bugs: I get
frustrated when someone points out a bug on reddit or on a blog, and
I've never seen it reported, even though it's a bug that we probably
would have fixed.)

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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Pasha R]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:
> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
> so I'm posting here.
>
> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
> open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
> to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
> Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
> select
> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
>
> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
> so badly.
>
> I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
> F16 or F17.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>

Welcome to the club. But, IMHO, complaining here won't help -
developers repeatedly stated that they won't change anything, and
probably will make things even worse. I'm staying with F14 while it is
supported and looking at KDE and XFCE as a possible future
replacement.
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Ralph Hofmann  wrote:

>
> I like the idea of javascript based plugins like in Firefox. I think that
> could become the killer feature of Gnome3. Of course Gnome3 is far from
> ready now. But is has a lot of potential. Potential discoverable by the
> user.
>

The killer feature is GObject and GObject introspection.  We've had that for
a number of years, but it is now front and center.

sri
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

On 08/30/2011 03:36 PM, John Stowers wrote:




Out of curiosity, are there any links to this?  I'm curious to see
how folks actually use the new features productively.


The videos on gnome3.org might be a start, perhaps a little simple.
Anyway, speaking to *my* own workflow, slightly adapted from defaults,
an iterative merging of G2/compiz/mac/all my past computer experience.


Here's a desktop capture..normally I'd have even more windows open, but
just rebooted recently and haven't re-logged in to all of the test systems
I will eventually be using.  This is my home system too...monitor at work
is a good big larger (23 inches, I think).

http://www.candelatech.com/~greearb/misc/Screenshot.png

I have several code editor windows open, some editing local java files, the
other editing files on a 32-bit build machine over nfs over the VPN.  We make
a client/server app, so normal use is editing/compiling on two different 
machines,
and testing on at least a third (and often multiple systems).  We have a 64-bit 
build machine
that I use a lot as well.

The terminals are used for ssh access to the test and build systems for testing,
looking at logs, compiling, etc.  A local terminal runs our GUI and I watch it's
output for logging, exceptions, etc.  I often cut and paste between terminals,
editors, etc.

IRC always in bottom left, just enough visible to see if someone has written 
something
with a glance.

I don't use the Applications & Places pulldowns often, but I find them way more 
useful
than the non-fallback gnome-3 thing that hides all other work on the desktop 
while you
are looking at huge icons.  It's enough to make me forget why I was looking 
there in the
first place.

I dearly miss the G2 system monitor applet that showed network, cpu, swap load 
etc.
That was a quick help in finding run-away programs eating all the cpu, or 
watching
network activity to have an idea of how much our GUI was communicating with the 
server.

I find the task bar vital to switching between the various terminals.  I'll 
rename their
title when I get too many and they get scrunched in tight.  And I'll also drag 
them around
so that similar things are close together.  I don't reboot often...hopefully 
only every month
or two at most.  This isn't a laptop, and never hibernates.

I use a single work-space.  I tried multiple before, but it just never worked 
out for me.

On gnome-2, I could load a system from bare metal and use it with zero tweaks 
to gnome,
aside from dragging a Terminal icon into the top bar, maybe adding a few 
applets.

Thanks,
Ben

--
Ben Greear 
Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Diego Fernandez]

+1... I've been using it for a while now and I must say I love the
idea, but it's definitely still missing features which to me are
absolutely essential (such as keybindings for moving and tiling
windows like in compiz, the ability to use the windows key for
keybindings, the workspace only alt-tab, and some way to maintain some
static desktops).  I've been just bearing with it for now waiting for
3.2.  I know some of these are fixed on 3.2, and with the better
integrated extensions the rest should soon be fixed.  Only a bit less
than a month away now!

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Ralph Hofmann  wrote:
> Am 30.08.2011 20:45, schrieb Ben Greear:
>>
>> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
>> so I'm posting here.
>>
>> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
>> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
>> open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
>> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
>> to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
>> Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
>> select
>> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
>>
>> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
>> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
>> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
>> so badly.
>>
>> I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
>> F16 or F17.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>>
>
> I had removed the use of the traditional gnome panels in my Gnome2 setup. So
> Gnome3 is on the right track in my personal opinion.
>
> I like the idea of javascript based plugins like in Firefox. I think that
> could become the killer feature of Gnome3. Of course Gnome3 is far from
> ready now. But is has a lot of potential. Potential discoverable by the
> user.
>
> Ralph
>
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ralph Hofmann]

Am 30.08.2011 20:45, schrieb Ben Greear:

I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
so I'm posting here.

I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can 
easily select

from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.

Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
so badly.

I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
F16 or F17.

Thanks,
Ben



I had removed the use of the traditional gnome panels in my Gnome2 
setup. So Gnome3 is on the right track in my personal opinion.


I like the idea of javascript based plugins like in Firefox. I think 
that could become the killer feature of Gnome3. Of course Gnome3 is far 
from ready now. But is has a lot of potential. Potential discoverable by 
the user.


Ralph

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RE: Disliking gnome 3

[tnmurphy]

I,  on the other hand, tried it repeatedly over a month and thought it was a 
pain in the neck and change with no benefit.

Regards, Tim
-Original Message-
From: Adam Tauno Williams
Sent:  31/08/2011, 3:01  AM
To: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Disliking gnome 3


On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 04:35 +0400, Sergey Zolotorev wrote:
> Hello
> Just try to use G3 about month. =)
> I had HATE it about two month after release (I even think to move to
> Xfce or other DEs...), but after this I found proper custom workflow
> to use this version and now I enjoy G3. So it is not so horrible as it
> seems. =)

Agree, I didn't try G3 for a long time, I looked at it an thought
"they've gone mad!".  I was wrong;  GNOME 3 is great.  It is different,
practices have to be changed.  

<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/2011/05/fortnight-with-gnome3.html>

I thought I couldn't live without a task bar - I was wrong - the
task-bar is *USELESS* *USELESS* *USELESS*.  Oh, my goodness, what on
earth was I using that thing for all those years?  Anyone adding the
task-bar back to GNOME3/Shell needs medical help.


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 04:35 +0400, Sergey Zolotorev wrote:
> Hello
> Just try to use G3 about month. =)
> I had HATE it about two month after release (I even think to move to
> Xfce or other DEs...), but after this I found proper custom workflow
> to use this version and now I enjoy G3. So it is not so horrible as it
> seems. =)

Agree, I didn't try G3 for a long time, I looked at it an thought
"they've gone mad!".  I was wrong;  GNOME 3 is great.  It is different,
practices have to be changed.  



I thought I couldn't live without a task bar - I was wrong - the
task-bar is *USELESS* *USELESS* *USELESS*.  Oh, my goodness, what on
earth was I using that thing for all those years?  Anyone adding the
task-bar back to GNOME3/Shell needs medical help.


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Sergey Zolotorev]

Hello,

Just try to use G3 about month. =)

I had HATE it about two month after release (I even think to move to
Xfce or other DEs...), but after this I found proper custom workflow
to use this version and now I enjoy G3. So it is not so horrible as it
seems. =)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:
> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
> so I'm posting here.
>
> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
> open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
> to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
> Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
> select
> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
>
> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
> so badly.
>
> I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
> F16 or F17.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Greear 
> Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[John Stowers]

> 
> Out of curiosity, are there any links to this?  I'm curious to see
> how folks actually use the new features productively.

The videos on gnome3.org might be a start, perhaps a little simple.
Anyway, speaking to *my* own workflow, slightly adapted from defaults,
an iterative merging of G2/compiz/mac/all my past computer experience.

* Assign shortcuts to super (i.e. super +t = terminal, super +m =
(un)/maximize windows, super up/down for workspace change, etc). This
gets one in the habit of using super. That leads into
* Super as a window management tool - brings up the overview. Not the
way I manage most windows but like compiz/mac expose. See again below.
 * Super + search for finding applications and recent documents (soon to
be all documents since needed infrastructure for searches using
tracker/zg was just merged). Keyboard navigation for results.

Once applications are launched. 

 * One / two maximised / tiled vertically windows, perhaps a terminal
either pinned to the top in a corner, or just alt+tab to raise it.
Implicit benefit of widescreen monitors, but I think this is a valid
future trend to assume anyway.
 * Tile / maximize windows by dragging to top/left/right.
 * More windows than that -> use super, re-arrange into workspaces or
choose from there (IIRC a bug to allow keyboard selection of windows in
overview has been fixed?)
 * Suspend always to keep work arranged as you left it.

So once you use it like this, no minimize and no taskbar are different
sides of the same coin.

Super/Overview gives me an idea of what is running (like the taskbar
would), and for a small number of windows on a workspace i can see them
all maximised / running anyway. Once you work like that,
minimise/maximize buttons are a confusion.

Once you use super for driving your computer launching apps via an icon
seems slower. I use the mouse much much less now than I ever did with
G2[1]

I don't really use the dock. I don't really use the user menu. I dont
use that empty application menu at the top. Maybe that is just me.

Sorry for the rambling.

John

p.s. Apologies for reply all, resend.

[1] I'd also like keyboard shortcuts for maximize /tile left side of
screen, right side of screen. Bug I guess.



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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Julien Olivier]

> Please do not suggest I change my work-flow...I find it making
> me want to scream that someone thinks they know how I should be
> work flowing.
> 

The first time you used a computer, you just didn't have a work-flow,
and you built a work-flow by adapting to the user interface you had to
work with. For GNOME 3 it's not different, except that now you already
have what you think is *your* work-flow, but really is only the
work-flow that was "forced" on you by the user interfaces you used
before.

Getting older sucks :)

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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

On 08/30/2011 02:37 PM, John Stowers wrote:

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 14:24 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:

On 08/30/2011 02:04 PM, John Stowers wrote:

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 11:45 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:



I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily select
from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.


Try alternate alt-tab or adjust your workflow slightly.


Please do not suggest I change my work-flow...I find it making
me want to scream that someone thinks they know how I should be
work flowing.


Sure, then please don't suggest people using G3 don't do 'real work'.


Ok, that was un-called for on my part.  But, I feel that *I*
can't do real work on G3, at least not as well as I do on G2.


Im not telling how you should be working. Im joining dots. Some
workflows are demonstrably more productive in G3 than others. Some


Out of curiosity, are there any links to this?  I'm curious to see
how folks actually use the new features productively.


workflows in tiling window managers are better than others. Some ways of
driving an automatic are better than how one used to drive a manual.


Maybe that's my problem..I drive a manual, and actually like it :)

Thanks,
Ben

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Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[John Stowers]

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 14:24 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:
> On 08/30/2011 02:04 PM, John Stowers wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 11:45 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:
> 
> >> I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily select
> >> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
> >
> > Try alternate alt-tab or adjust your workflow slightly.
> 
> Please do not suggest I change my work-flow...I find it making
> me want to scream that someone thinks they know how I should be
> work flowing.

Sure, then please don't suggest people using G3 don't do 'real work'.

Im not telling how you should be working. Im joining dots. Some
workflows are demonstrably more productive in G3 than others. Some
workflows in tiling window managers are better than others. Some ways of
driving an automatic are better than how one used to drive a manual.

It is between you and your aversion to change as to whether you try
those new ways or not.

John


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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

On 08/30/2011 02:04 PM, John Stowers wrote:

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 11:45 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:



I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily select
from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.


Try alternate alt-tab or adjust your workflow slightly.


Please do not suggest I change my work-flow...I find it making
me want to scream that someone thinks they know how I should be
work flowing.

Thanks,
Ben



John



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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

On 08/30/2011 02:01 PM, Evandro Giovanini wrote:

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:

I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
so I'm posting here.

I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
select
from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.



I believe using "Alt" was a fix for a major usability issue with GNOME
2, where users would easily move things and panels around by accident;
to fix that, eventually it was introduced that each panel and panel
object could be locked in place, which made actually customizing
things a pain in the ass and the codebase more complex. Using the Alt
modifier makes the panel code easier to maintain and actually editing
the panels more simple as well. And don't you just love the new
feature where items are auto aligned to the left, right or center? I
know I do. :)


For dragging stuff around a panel, that might make sense, but not for 
right-click menus,
and not for dragging stuff longer distances..you are unlikely to do that on
accident.


As for your actual gnome-shell comment: in GNOME 3.2 you can quickly
launch a new instance of an application by dragging it anywhere on the
overview (in 3.0 you had to find an empty space). Launching new
instances from the Dash instead of bringing focus to the application
is not something that should limit you to web browsing in one or two
windows at all; in fact, as far as I understand it's also the default
behaviour for Windows, Mac and Ubuntu's Unity. A lot of RealWork gets
done this way.


Can you just drag a Terminal icon into the top bar somewhere and then click it
to get new instances?  (Or any other app, for that matter..but for me, I
mainly use terminals like that).



As a tip I'd recommend setting up a Super + T shortcut for launching
new terminal windows. It's way faster if you often use it.


That could work for me, but not obvious for new users.  Clicking a big icon
on the desktop or small one in the top bar is much more obvious.

And of course that means putting icons back on the desktop by default.


And the minimize/maximize/close buttons on windows...bad idea to take those
away, especially when the window bars are already full of wasted 
whitespace..it's
not like it really saved anything to remove a few small buttons that folks
have been using for decades.



Anyway, I hope you try out GNOME 3.2 as it fixes many small problems
the original release had. I think you'll find that if you stick with
it and try to experience some of the unique features of the Shell
you'll quickly be a lot more productive with it.


Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
so badly.



It's very easy to switch GNOME 3 back to fallback mode from "System
Info" in the System Settings.


It's easy once you find it, or read enough complaints on the web to find
someone talking about it, but I think it should be much more obvious, perhaps
as a option in gdm or something ("Classic Gnome", w/out compiz, which crashed
within 1 minute for me).

Thanks,
Ben



Cheers,
Evandro



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Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 11:45 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:
> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
> so I'm posting here.
> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
> open one or two windows and browse the web. 

Me too; dozens of windows, multiple workspaces... GNOME 3 works great!

>  I want one-click to open new Terminals.

Use the key-binding; even faster.  Or just Alt-F2 to run a command
directly.

>   I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
> to accomplish that.

Shortcuts are dead, thank heavens.

>  Right-click should work without having to press Alt.

No idea what this means.

>   I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily select
> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.

Nope.  Gone and good riddance.  Really, seriously, the task dock is
worthless.  Go awhile without it and you wonder why you ever wanted it.

> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
> so badly.

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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[John Stowers]

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 11:45 -0700, Ben Greear wrote:
> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
> so I'm posting here.
> 
> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
> still not as good as gnome 2 was.

Just to be clear, Fallback is not designed to be a black version of G2.

> I do work on my computer, not just
> open one or two windows and browse the web.

Sure, I do real work on G3 too thanks, we are not all facetweeters and
googlebook users posting cat pictures.

G3 required me to adjust my workflow a little, but I am more productive
now. Making each workspace target at a single / 2 applications actually
improved my productivity greatly.

Try the alternate-alt-tab extension if you like, some people find it
improves working with large numbers of windows on one workspace. Or try
to adjust your workflow a little.


>  I want one-click to open
> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
> to accomplish that.

Try "favorites in panel" extension

http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html

Personally it is faster for me to use the keyboard, set a shortcut to
launch a terminal, or hit super and type 'te' + enter

> Right-click should work without having to press
> Alt. 

Are you talking about fallback panel here?

> I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily select
> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.

Try alternate alt-tab or adjust your workflow slightly.

John

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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Evandro Giovanini]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:
> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
> so I'm posting here.
>
> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
> open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
> to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
> Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
> select
> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
>

I believe using "Alt" was a fix for a major usability issue with GNOME
2, where users would easily move things and panels around by accident;
to fix that, eventually it was introduced that each panel and panel
object could be locked in place, which made actually customizing
things a pain in the ass and the codebase more complex. Using the Alt
modifier makes the panel code easier to maintain and actually editing
the panels more simple as well. And don't you just love the new
feature where items are auto aligned to the left, right or center? I
know I do. :)

As for your actual gnome-shell comment: in GNOME 3.2 you can quickly
launch a new instance of an application by dragging it anywhere on the
overview (in 3.0 you had to find an empty space). Launching new
instances from the Dash instead of bringing focus to the application
is not something that should limit you to web browsing in one or two
windows at all; in fact, as far as I understand it's also the default
behaviour for Windows, Mac and Ubuntu's Unity. A lot of RealWork gets
done this way.

As a tip I'd recommend setting up a Super + T shortcut for launching
new terminal windows. It's way faster if you often use it.

Anyway, I hope you try out GNOME 3.2 as it fixes many small problems
the original release had. I think you'll find that if you stick with
it and try to experience some of the unique features of the Shell
you'll quickly be a lot more productive with it.

> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
> so badly.
>

It's very easy to switch GNOME 3 back to fallback mode from "System
Info" in the System Settings.

Cheers,
Evandro
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

On 08/30/2011 01:24 PM, Nick Glynn wrote:

Hey Ben,

Gnome 2 hasn't gone anywhere. It's not been taken away. It's just not under 
active development by the Gnome Foundation any more though I believe some 
people are
working on a fork at http://matsusoft.com.ar/redmine/projects/mate if that's of 
interest.

I doubt any future Fedora releases will sate your requests as they tend to 
track upstream Gnome but, as that's a distribution choice, you may be better off
emailing the Fedora Desktop List at 
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop


Yes, I saw that mate thing..looks promising, but long term, unless it
gets into a distribution, it's probably not going to stay very active.

We ship a fair amount of linux machines to our customers, and I would
much rather keep to standard distro packages if possible.  For now, that
means staying with F14, but eventually we'll have to move forward, or
perhaps to a new distribution.

The fedora forums pretty much say to complain to gnome, since fedora is
going to follow upstream gnome, or at least that is the current plan.

I don't really want to argue with anyone about how they should run their
project..I'm obviously free to go use xfce, kde, or whatever.

But, I did want to give my feedback to the project developers just
in case it helps them realize that perhaps their new features are not
as well received as they thought they would be.

Thanks,
Ben




Hope that helps,
Nick

On 30 August 2011 19:45, Ben Greear mailto:gree...@candelatech.com>> wrote:

I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
so I'm posting here.

I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily 
select
from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.

Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
so badly.

I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
F16 or F17.

Thanks,
Ben

--
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Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com
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Re: Disliking gnome 3

[Nick Glynn]

Hey Ben,

Gnome 2 hasn't gone anywhere. It's not been taken away. It's just not under
active development by the Gnome Foundation any more though I believe some
people are working on a fork at
http://matsusoft.com.ar/redmine/projects/mate if that's of interest.

I doubt any future Fedora releases will sate your requests as they tend to
track upstream Gnome but, as that's a distribution choice, you may be better
off emailing the Fedora Desktop List at
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop

Hope that helps,
Nick

On 30 August 2011 19:45, Ben Greear  wrote:

> I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
> so I'm posting here.
>
> I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
> still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
> open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
> new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
> to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
> Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily
> select
> from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.
>
> Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
> gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
> that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
> so badly.
>
> I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
> F16 or F17.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Greear 
> Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
> __**_
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>
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Disliking gnome 3

[Ben Greear]

I couldn't find a better place to voice my displeasure of Gnome 3,
so I'm posting here.

I really just want gnome-2 back.  Fallback mode sort of works, but its
still not as good as gnome 2 was.  I do work on my computer, not just
open one or two windows and browse the web.  I want one-click to open
new Terminals.  I want to drag the Terminal icon into the top task bar
to accomplish that.  Right-click should work without having to press
Alt.  I want the bottom task dock or whatever it's called so I can easily select
from the multitude of windows I have on my desktop.

Please have a one-click (or very few clicks) option to get the old
gnome-2 interface back.  If you want to have a new way of doing things,
that's fine too, but please don't break the old ways of doing things
so badly.

I'm downgrading to Fedora 14 for now..hope things clear up by
F16 or F17.

Thanks,
Ben

--
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Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
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