Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
to state my opinion on the proposal, this is a "no-brainer" yes this "no SaaSS" requirement ought to be easy and painless for distros to follow; because whichever SaaSS client is in question, most often with SaaSS, the service is duplicating an "offline" tool which has existed for many years so, by definition, there is probably some libre substitute which accomplishes that task and runs locally; and if that task is common or important, the distro probably already distributes a tool which accomplishes that task - so even if the SaaSS tool were acceptable, it is still redundant, duplicating functionality that the distro already has in this specific case for parabola, apertium was already in the repos - the decision to remove ydcv (and another similar tool which appeared around the same time 'translate-shell') was inconsequential - no functionality was lost from the distro in their absence my criteria would be, that in order for some SaaSS client to be acceptable, there must exist some known way to use that client with a compatible libre service, running locally or self-hosted; and that the client should not be able to access any specific remote service by default - it could be pre-configured for a localhost service by default, but be otherwise useless out-of-the-box, without a locally running service, pending manual configuration for any specific remote server that would be acceptable because, it is not SaaSS, except when configured for a specific remote SaaSS service
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:34:12 -0400 Ian wrote: > To avoid confusion, avoid describing a service as "free" or > "non-free" > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/network-services-arent-free-or-nonfree.html > > A change about SaaSS should just be about SaaSS. Keep in mind what is > written here: > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html IMHO, this was the most salient post in the thread - it is most important to be definitive WRT terminology - people are especially confused/argumentative about "SaaSS" this loose-end came up a while back regarding the term "non-free", which is used ubiquitously; yet i dont believe that it is actually defined anywhere - the definition could be simply: "software which does not offer all four freedoms"; but albeit a trivial definition, there should be a well-defined definition for it somewhere, for other documentation to reference, rather than presenting it casually, as a commonly-understood jargon term so the general suggestion i would make, is to be careful with wording, yes; but not in any one place (such as the FSDG); but to centralize/canonicalize the definitions of those common terms in other words, if the FSDG were to be amended to cover SaaSS, the FSDG should avoid any attempt to define SaaSS - it should instead point to a common definition such as the 'who-does-that-server-really-serve' article; with terse, unambiguous wording like: "Avoid SaaSS, as defined by GNU ."
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Telegram is not a SaaSS system because using a server to forward messages from person A to person B is not SaaSS. SaaSS means outsourcing your _computing_ to a server, and mediating communication with someone else isn't the same thing as doing your own computing. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I think targeting the program itself in the criteria might not be > the best way. Whether something is SaaSS or not is > context-dependent -- who is hosting it, who is using it, and for > what purpose. There are some programs for which that is substantially true. But that point, if we are not careful, would open the door to quibbling about minor cases. Suppose a program is normally used for SaaSS, and is presented as a way to do SaaSS, and some hacker figures out a way to run it that isn't SaaSS. Does that new way change the conclusion about whether that program is a portal for SaaSS? Maybe it does, maybe not. If the new non-SaaSSy way is really useful, and we change the program's documentation to present that as the primary way to use it, and a substantial fraction of users start using it that way, then I think it does. But if it remains no more than an amusing hack, it should not change our conclusion that that program exists for SaaSS. > here is also the situation of tools that are actually useful in > migrating data out of a SaaSS platform, even though they might > also be useful for actually using the platform. That is a good point. We could ask whether the program has "practically important non-SaaSS or anti-SaaSS uses". If it does, people should prepare documentation which presents those uses as the program's purpose. > A start at figuring this out might involve editing the criteria > about recommendations under License Rules, to make sure endorsed > distros don't recommend SaaSS platforms. Maybe so -- but that issue seems rather different (though they both relate to SaaSS). One issue is about which programs to include, and the other is about which web sites to mention. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
On 3/23/22 19:08, Jean Louis wrote: * Jason Self [2022-03-23 22:40]: The GNU FSDG doesn't seem to speak to SaaSS. It seems to me that it should. What's driving the question is that I learned of Parabola including a program called ydcv. It's used for translations (Chinese <-> English) through the Youdao online translate service [0]. This wouldn't stop people from using their web browsers to do this; only that distros shouldn't include programs that a mere frontend or helper for SaaSS to encourage or steer people toward such things. [0] https://www.parabola.nu/packages/community/x86_64/ydcv/ Such proposal already exists: [GNU-linux-libre] Proposal to revise FSDG to exclude SaaSS-only software https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gnu-linux-libre/2021-04/msg00015.html As in regards of Telegram -- I cannot say it should be excluded like I said about in April 2021, as for the reason that it is access to general information such as channels and groups, it is not only a personal messenger. I would say Telegram should be kept if it would not require registration of personal information but it does. There still exists a possibility that someone opens up new Telegram server and adapts software for such, or that Telegram Desktop as free software get adapted to be used on other networks such as on XMPP. This is argument to keep it. I would not, but it is one such argument. If it would be solely personal messenger I still think it should not be in the fully free system distributions. How is SaaSS described in Free Software Philosophy? Who Does That Server Really Serve? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html , | On the Internet, proprietary software isn't the only way to lose your | computing freedom. Service as a Software Substitute, or SaaSS, is | another way to give someone else power over your computing. ` I can't agree to the full description of what is SaaSS, for example, can't agree to following: , | Most servers are not SaaSS because the jobs they do are some sort of | communication, rather than the user's own computing. ` Especially in the case of communication we have to be vary. It is not correct to assume that communication is not user's own computing, while it technically and practically, clearly is computing. Translation service is described as being such case of SaaSS. It is there for us to think about it. I also see there is paid service and free service. There is Emacs package for accessing Google Translation directly from computer. When such package would ask for developer ID, that means user may need to pass through Google proprietary Javascript to get such ID -- and in that case I would clearly reject such software. But if such software is helping user to translate text in Emacs straight and without using browser, I find it rather equivalent to browser and for that reason would rather allow it. If however software such as translation is paid service and thus requires some kind of registration, I would rather exclude it. If it gives rather benefit to user not to use browser, or not to use Javascript as compared to browser, then I would include it. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ "Especially in the case of communication we have to be vary. It is not correct to assume that communication is not user's own computing, while it technically and practically, clearly is computing." So are centralized networks for communication SaaSS?
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
* Luke via gnu-linux-libre [2022-03-24 01:00]: > Some applications that come to mind would be youtube-dl / yt-viewer > / weboob / terminal-search, et all. If any software requires non-free dependencies, I would exclude it. But if software is used only as downloader or viewer, I do not see how it is SaaSS, as it is just taking downloading data to store or to view it on one's computer. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
* Jason Self [2022-03-23 22:40]: > The GNU FSDG doesn't seem to speak to SaaSS. It seems to me that it > should. > > What's driving the question is that I learned of Parabola including a > program called ydcv. It's used for translations (Chinese <-> English) > through the Youdao online translate service [0]. > > This wouldn't stop people from using their web browsers to do this; > only that distros shouldn't include programs that a mere frontend or > helper for SaaSS to encourage or steer people toward such things. > > [0] https://www.parabola.nu/packages/community/x86_64/ydcv/ Such proposal already exists: [GNU-linux-libre] Proposal to revise FSDG to exclude SaaSS-only software https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gnu-linux-libre/2021-04/msg00015.html As in regards of Telegram -- I cannot say it should be excluded like I said about in April 2021, as for the reason that it is access to general information such as channels and groups, it is not only a personal messenger. I would say Telegram should be kept if it would not require registration of personal information but it does. There still exists a possibility that someone opens up new Telegram server and adapts software for such, or that Telegram Desktop as free software get adapted to be used on other networks such as on XMPP. This is argument to keep it. I would not, but it is one such argument. If it would be solely personal messenger I still think it should not be in the fully free system distributions. How is SaaSS described in Free Software Philosophy? Who Does That Server Really Serve? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html , | On the Internet, proprietary software isn't the only way to lose your | computing freedom. Service as a Software Substitute, or SaaSS, is | another way to give someone else power over your computing. ` I can't agree to the full description of what is SaaSS, for example, can't agree to following: , | Most servers are not SaaSS because the jobs they do are some sort of | communication, rather than the user's own computing. ` Especially in the case of communication we have to be vary. It is not correct to assume that communication is not user's own computing, while it technically and practically, clearly is computing. Translation service is described as being such case of SaaSS. It is there for us to think about it. I also see there is paid service and free service. There is Emacs package for accessing Google Translation directly from computer. When such package would ask for developer ID, that means user may need to pass through Google proprietary Javascript to get such ID -- and in that case I would clearly reject such software. But if such software is helping user to translate text in Emacs straight and without using browser, I find it rather equivalent to browser and for that reason would rather allow it. If however software such as translation is paid service and thus requires some kind of registration, I would rather exclude it. If it gives rather benefit to user not to use browser, or not to use Javascript as compared to browser, then I would include it. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
Luke via gnu-linux-libre writes: > Then there's the question of how far do you want to remove programs > which depend on non-free web service dependencies since the rabbit trail > can get pretty long. To avoid confusion, avoid describing a service as "free" or "non-free" https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/network-services-arent-free-or-nonfree.html A change about SaaSS should just be about SaaSS. Keep in mind what is written here: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
John Sullivan writes: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 04:03:56PM -0400, Ian Kelling wrote: > I think targeting the program itself in the criteria might not be the best > way. > Whether something is SaaSS or not is context-dependent -- who is hosting it, > who is using it, and for what purpose. There is also the situation of tools > that are actually useful in migrating data out of a SaaSS platform, even > though > they might also be useful for actually using the platform. A start at figuring > this out might involve editing the criteria about recommendations under > License > Rules, to make sure endorsed distros don't recommend SaaSS platforms. Good points. I agree. - Ian
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
On 03/23/22 17:35, John Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 04:03:56PM -0400, Ian Kelling wrote: >> Jason Self writes: >> >>> The GNU FSDG doesn't seem to speak to SaaSS. It seems to me that it >>> should. >>> >>> What's driving the question is that I learned of Parabola including a >>> program called ydcv. It's used for translations (Chinese <-> English) >>> through the Youdao online translate service [0]. >>> >>> This wouldn't stop people from using their web browsers to do this; >>> only that distros shouldn't include programs that a mere frontend or >>> helper for SaaSS to encourage or steer people toward such things. >>> >>> [0] https://www.parabola.nu/packages/community/x86_64/ydcv/ >>> >> That sounds like a good idea to me. >> > I think targeting the program itself in the criteria might not be the best > way. > Whether something is SaaSS or not is context-dependent -- who is hosting it, > who is using it, and for what purpose. There is also the situation of tools > that are actually useful in migrating data out of a SaaSS platform, even > though > they might also be useful for actually using the platform. A start at figuring > this out might involve editing the criteria about recommendations under > License > Rules, to make sure endorsed distros don't recommend SaaSS platforms. > > -john > Reiterating what John said, while moving away from SaaSS sounds like a good idea, the wording should be careful to avoid removing potentially useful applications that users may be using to escape said platforms. Then there's the question of how far do you want to remove programs which depend on non-free web service dependencies since the rabbit trail can get pretty long. Some applications that come to mind would be youtube-dl / yt-viewer / weboob / terminal-search, et all. Luke
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 04:03:56PM -0400, Ian Kelling wrote: > > Jason Self writes: > > > The GNU FSDG doesn't seem to speak to SaaSS. It seems to me that it > > should. > > > > What's driving the question is that I learned of Parabola including a > > program called ydcv. It's used for translations (Chinese <-> English) > > through the Youdao online translate service [0]. > > > > This wouldn't stop people from using their web browsers to do this; > > only that distros shouldn't include programs that a mere frontend or > > helper for SaaSS to encourage or steer people toward such things. > > > > [0] https://www.parabola.nu/packages/community/x86_64/ydcv/ > > > > That sounds like a good idea to me. > I think targeting the program itself in the criteria might not be the best way. Whether something is SaaSS or not is context-dependent -- who is hosting it, who is using it, and for what purpose. There is also the situation of tools that are actually useful in migrating data out of a SaaSS platform, even though they might also be useful for actually using the platform. A start at figuring this out might involve editing the criteria about recommendations under License Rules, to make sure endorsed distros don't recommend SaaSS platforms. -john
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
Jason Self writes: > The GNU FSDG doesn't seem to speak to SaaSS. It seems to me that it > should. > > What's driving the question is that I learned of Parabola including a > program called ydcv. It's used for translations (Chinese <-> English) > through the Youdao online translate service [0]. > > This wouldn't stop people from using their web browsers to do this; > only that distros shouldn't include programs that a mere frontend or > helper for SaaSS to encourage or steer people toward such things. > > [0] https://www.parabola.nu/packages/community/x86_64/ydcv/ > That sounds like a good idea to me. - Ian
[GNU-linux-libre] GNU FSDG and SaaSS
The GNU FSDG doesn't seem to speak to SaaSS. It seems to me that it should. What's driving the question is that I learned of Parabola including a program called ydcv. It's used for translations (Chinese <-> English) through the Youdao online translate service [0]. This wouldn't stop people from using their web browsers to do this; only that distros shouldn't include programs that a mere frontend or helper for SaaSS to encourage or steer people toward such things. [0] https://www.parabola.nu/packages/community/x86_64/ydcv/ pgpH70Of8y5C9.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
