Re: [GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:53:29 +0200 Koko Koala kokotheko...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/9 Karl Goetz k...@kgoetz.id.au On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 18:43:33 +0200 Koko Koala kokotheko...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/6 Henry Jensen hjen...@gmx.de All right, but in case of many new users or a high-traffic forum a small team wouldn't be able to discourage every reference to non-free software because of their limited resources. What we did on another forum was having a pre-made text explaining the purpose of the forum that we posted on every topic of persons that didn't understand it. We can adapt it for free software : something like making a wiki page (or even a full wiki) about all the Perhaps a resources page on libreplanet for such things, we could put a template community guidelines there too. free alternatives to proprietary software, a list of working hardware with linux-libre and only post this link (with a little comment) on the concerned post. I know that some sites already exist about this, maybe centralizing it would be a good idea centralising the references maybe, but i doubt we can pull all that information into one place - it just never seems to work out that way. Maybe through a wiki, or a simple page that lists all useful links I doubt its workable, but i've been proved wrong before - good luck if you decide to create said page :) kk -- Karl Goetz, (Kamping_Kaiser / VK5FOSS) Debian contributor / gNewSense Maintainer http://www.kgoetz.id.au No, I won't join your social networking group signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
2011/7/9 Karl Goetz k...@kgoetz.id.au On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 18:43:33 +0200 Koko Koala kokotheko...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/6 Henry Jensen hjen...@gmx.de Hello, If it occurs at the forum of a FSDG compliant distro that now and then non-free software is mentioned, how do you handle this? Here at BLAG, we have a non-free forum. But noone uses it (in fact, the forum is not that much used), and I doubt of its usefulness I'm surprised its not considered an endorsement of proprietary software. Well, I don't agree with this forum either, but we didn't think about the website yet. And it might be a solution. All right, but in case of many new users or a high-traffic forum a small team wouldn't be able to discourage every reference to non-free software because of their limited resources. What we did on another forum was having a pre-made text explaining the purpose of the forum that we posted on every topic of persons that didn't understand it. We can adapt it for free software : something like making a wiki page (or even a full wiki) about all the Perhaps a resources page on libreplanet for such things, we could put a template community guidelines there too. free alternatives to proprietary software, a list of working hardware with linux-libre and only post this link (with a little comment) on the concerned post. I know that some sites already exist about this, maybe centralizing it would be a good idea centralising the references maybe, but i doubt we can pull all that information into one place - it just never seems to work out that way. Maybe through a wiki, or a simple page that lists all useful links thanks, kk -- Karl Goetz, (Kamping_Kaiser / VK5FOSS) Debian contributor / gNewSense Maintainer http://www.kgoetz.id.au No, I won't join your social networking group
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
On 07/07/2011 12:43 PM, Koko Koala wrote: If it occurs at the forum of a FSDG compliant distro that now and then non-free software is mentioned, how do you handle this? Here at BLAG, we have a non-free forum. But noone uses it (in fact, the forum is not that much used), and I doubt of its usefulness Hmm. While I appreciate that the goal here is to cordon off discussions about nonfree software out of the main forums, I'm worried that this might give people the wrong idea that BLAG legitimizes nonfree software. I'm not sure this is the direction that I'd like to see us going. I agree with many of the other sentiments here that going so far as to delete every post that mentions nonfree software is going unnecessarily far. I think individualized responses like we've been discussing are a good way to handle the issue generally. -- Brett Smith License Compliance Engineer, Free Software Foundation Support the FSF by becoming an Associate Member: http://fsf.org/jf
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
Hello Sam, On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 20:51:50 +0200 Sam Geeraerts sam...@elmundolibre.be wrote: Non-free software should be discouraged if someone brings them up. All right, but in case of many new users or a high-traffic forum a small team wouldn't be able to discourage every reference to non-free software because of their limited resources. In case of many new users I would first of all get suspicious. It means you either excel at marketing (in which case you're welcome to do the same trick for gNewSense ;) ) or you suck at it and nobody knows that the distro is supposed to be fully free. Well, I don't know if I am good at marketing or if I suck. I get constantly new users, some are blaming me for using linux-libre because their hardware won't work. Some are requesting that I use the vanilla kernel. I regularly respond to such posts, pointing them to h-node.com and try to explain why it is important to use free and avoid non-free software. Some people understand this, but some are not. Well, I heard rumors that there might be a external NON-FSDG repo or even a NON-FSDG fork in the planning. If it will happen I have no means or the will to stop it. It is free software, after all. But: I regularly read the suggestion use non-free at Debian help forums. How can I respond to the same suggestion from arbitrary users posting at the forum? Or not, and then your community implodes and all your worries are over. :) Let's hope not ...
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
Henry Jensen wrote: Well, I don't know if I am good at marketing or if I suck. I get constantly new users, some are blaming me for using linux-libre because their hardware won't work. Some are requesting that I use the vanilla kernel. I regularly respond to such posts, pointing them to h-node.com and try to explain why it is important to use free and avoid non-free software. Some people understand this, but some are not. You tried to help them. If they don't like it, ignore them and spend your time on people who do. Well, I heard rumors that there might be a external NON-FSDG repo or even a NON-FSDG fork in the planning. If it will happen I have no means or the will to stop it. It is free software, after all. Indeed. But: I regularly read the suggestion use non-free at Debian help forums. How can I respond to the same suggestion from arbitrary users posting at the forum? I don't know the vibe there, but I assume that keeping on explaining the importance of software freedom and helping people with free software won't get you banned. Remain friendly and calm, even if some people may not like what you're doing and want you to stop doing it. Avoid religious flamewars.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 20:23:50 +0200 Henry Jensen hjen...@gmx.de wrote: Hello Sam, On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 20:51:50 +0200 Sam Geeraerts sam...@elmundolibre.be wrote: Non-free software should be discouraged if someone brings them up. All right, but in case of many new users or a high-traffic forum a small team wouldn't be able to discourage every reference to non-free software because of their limited resources. In case of many new users I would first of all get suspicious. It means you either excel at marketing (in which case you're welcome to do the same trick for gNewSense ;) ) or you suck at it and nobody knows that the distro is supposed to be fully free. But: I regularly read the suggestion use non-free at Debian help forums. How can I respond to the same suggestion from arbitrary users posting at the forum? If they want the GCC man pages 'use non-free' is perfectly valid advice on a debian system ... thanks, kk -- Karl Goetz, (Kamping_Kaiser / VK5FOSS) Debian contributor / gNewSense Maintainer http://www.kgoetz.id.au No, I won't join your social networking group signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
Hello, If it occurs at the forum of a FSDG compliant distro that now and then non-free software is mentioned, how do you handle this? The question came to my mind because of http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Free_System_Distribution_Checklist#Only_Suggests_Free_Software Deleting the posts would be censorship and I think this would be not good. Non-free software should be discouraged if someone brings them up. All right, but in case of many new users or a high-traffic forum a small team wouldn't be able to discourage every reference to non-free software because of their limited resources. What about references of NON-FSDG software? Let's say if someone would post instructions how to install a Linux kernel with included blobs or any other software mentioned on http://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines? I can imagine that there is a situation where such posts are overseen by a small team. Henry
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] How do you handle references to non-free software in public forums?
Henry Jensen wrote: Hello, If it occurs at the forum of a FSDG compliant distro that now and then non-free software is mentioned, how do you handle this? I think general forum good practices apply: - Make sure you have clear rules about what is allowed, not just with regards to software freedom but also about the use of the forum in general. - Make sure it's clear what consequences can be expected when someone crosses the line (which doesn't mean you have to be zero-tolerant about it, honey works better than vinegar). - Be on the look-out for potential moderators to whom you could trust some responsibility and don't be afraid to give them that. The question came to my mind because of http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Free_System_Distribution_Checklist#Only_Suggests_Free_Software Deleting the posts would be censorship and I think this would be not good. I agree, unless it's deliberate trolling about non-free software. Non-free software should be discouraged if someone brings them up. All right, but in case of many new users or a high-traffic forum a small team wouldn't be able to discourage every reference to non-free software because of their limited resources. In case of many new users I would first of all get suspicious. It means you either excel at marketing (in which case you're welcome to do the same trick for gNewSense ;) ) or you suck at it and nobody knows that the distro is supposed to be fully free. Eitherway, the problem probably solves itself over time. In the latter case the users go away again once they realize the nature of the distro. In the former case you hopefully also get more moderators to keep things under control. Or not, and then your community implodes and all your worries are over. :) Discouraging doesn't always have to be a whole essay about the importance of software freedom. You can usually assume forum members have some understanding of the concept and then a short (standard) explanation is enough. But a link to the forum rules or one of the philosophy articles on gnu.org is often sufficient, I imagine. What about references of NON-FSDG software? Let's say if someone would post instructions how to install a Linux kernel with included blobs or any other software mentioned on http://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines? I can imagine that there is a situation where such posts are overseen by a small team. As long as there's not a structural problem of condoning such references, it's fine, IMO. I think the mistakes are ok part of the Commitment to Correct Mistakes section of the guidelines applies here.
