Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
fr33domlover fr33domlo...@riseup.net asked: What if a distro is not self-hosting, but can be built from another fully free distro which is on the FSF's list of free distros? An exception to self-hosting is addressed in the GNU FSDG already. This was added for clarity due to LibreWRT, which targets embedded devices that don't have the resources to compile their own software. x86/x86_64 machines, in comparison, do. An exception to this requirement and to the self-hosting requirement above is for small system distributions, which are distros designed for devices with limited resources, like a wireless router for example. Free small system distributions do not need to be self-hosting or complete, because it is impractical to do development on such a system, but it must be developable and buildable on top of a free complete system distribution from our list of distributions, perhaps with the aid of free tools distributed alongside the small system distribution itself. I'd ask RMS. Is he subscribed to this list (or should I send to him directly)? It is better to go through FSF staff via this list and leave it to them to interact with RMS as needed.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
- - If all but one libre distro stop being developed, and that one distro isn't self-hosting, that would leave us with an OS that can't be built without an OS that's either not completely libre or outdated. - - If all of the distros that could be used to compile a non-self-hosting distro are discontinued, we would be left unable to compile that non-self-hosting distro without an OS that's either not completely libre or outdated. The same thing could happen if all libre distros except an embedded one were to be discontinued. It's not very likely, though. And even if they were, it would just mean that you'd have to use an outdated OS for compilation. So what?
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
fr33domlover fr33domlo...@riseup.net writes: On 2015-04-26 Jason Self ja...@librewrt.org wrote: fr33domlover fr33domlo...@riseup.net asked: What if a distro is not self-hosting, but can be built from another fully free distro which is on the FSF's list of free distros? An exception to self-hosting is addressed in the GNU FSDG already. This was added for clarity due to LibreWRT, which targets embedded devices that don't have the resources to compile their own software. x86/x86_64 machines, in comparison, do. Yes, I'm aware of the exception, but it's for distros targetting only embedded devices iirc. and embedded devices even have better specs than old pc hardware ;) -- :O signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I see. But why would a tiny distro for old hardware do all the work (probably doubling the number of packages in the best case) needed to add the entire toolchain for development and building and compiling and configuring and all the dependencies (such as the scripting languages used by git and other tools)? You're talking about how long it takes to compile. The way I interpret the exception for distros like LibreWRT and LibreCMC is that it's for systems going on devices that *can't* do self-hosting because they don't have enough storage space. That's a very different situation. Because of space constraints, it makes sense that something like LibreWRT might be entirely unable to include the tools necessary to self-host. But with your system, you're saying it's not practical to compile the system on the machines you're intending to run it on because of speed. I'm not entirely sure, but I suppose the self-hosting requirement is there to be future-proof: - - If all but one libre distro stop being developed, and that one distro isn't self-hosting, that would leave us with an OS that can't be built without an OS that's either not completely libre or outdated. - - If all of the distros that could be used to compile a non-self-hosting distro are discontinued, we would be left unable to compile that non-self-hosting distro without an OS that's either not completely libre or outdated. I'm not sure I agree that it's a problem, but I think that's the reasoning. - -- Julian Marchant https://onpon4.github.io Protect your privacy with GnuPG: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVPSXoAAoJELP1a+89AVMCwRUH/2S3BDA16dqSF/QlsjXfNRxv 13cvLDGNH7WaTnfukMKjxPeB5QxqYliquErjJiW4ePTlq8ssbzUHoWj72dIMsaib U7vsOIHkQAji2yjcn4BCcf1JxsB5wZXIJ9iQt+PhcJyrYN8H/R3zzzAqSQRbw2VI pe1xXZwSPABScGMSUyz1W6x9tj6UPS0LE4twnGE3U7flh2MGhdaP8SpHoNP6Y4rr X618reBQ940YAULEns5cP90ZU0nbo6kg8zcp2a6CY4O+X5V8tqo7c17z+CfsHVsc jZWU7q4G+U8LrJc5QvVdO8bbTfHLZSmNPFbRGKds/qIU5Gc5oNwd/9XKuYS9vXE= =X0oj -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 21:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Jason Self ja...@bluehome.net wrote: In fact, in reviewing the website I am not able to find any information about how to actually build RLSD regardless of the method The instructions are in the README, one git clone away. Everything is automated, even the build environment setup. pgpD6wPyTj2dp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
fr33domlover asked: a tiny distro for old hardware x86_64 machines, which are one of the stated targets, are not old. Imagine a 12-core Intel Xeon. I'd just like to understand why something with minimal benefit It's not clear to me why you're reluctant to provide easy access to a compiler complete toolchain to build from scratch. In fact, in reviewing the website I am not able to find any information about how to actually build RLSD regardless of the method. libreCMC in comparison does provide information and instructions on their website: https://librecmc.org/librecmc/wiki?name=Build+HOWTO Julian Marchant onp...@riseup.net wrote .. You're talking about how long it takes to compile. The way I interpret the exception for distros like LibreWRT and LibreCMC is that it's for systems going on devices that *can't* do self-hosting because they don't have enough storage space. That's a very different situation. Exactly. In the case of libreCMC, there are devices targeted which contain only 4MB of permanent storage. This is too small the hold the source code of the software that runs on there. Go look at the tarballs of Linux-libre and you'll see that the source code of the kernel alone is far more than 4MB. They can't hold their own source code but even if they somehow could there's the matter of the CPU: They're not powerful enough to do so. It would take forever, or at least long enough as to simulate forever, but in truth the machines have such limited RAM that the machine would run out of RAM and not be able to successfully compile its own software anyway. For this reason it's common to cross-compile on a larger and more powerful host system. This is not the case on x86: Permanent storage can usually be increased easily by adding a new or additional HDD or SSD. RAM can be upgraded to provide a sufficient quantity, etc. Also, I'm told that libreCMC is also self-hosting on x86: You can build the toolchain and successfully compile a functioning system using only the tools that the libreCMC folks provide.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 07:43:54AM -0700, Jason Self wrote: An exception to this requirement and to the self-hosting requirement above is for small system distributions, BTW this above is somewhat confusing: self-hosting is never mentioned above on that page. perhaps this should be clarified.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
Hello, On 2015-04-16 Jason Self ja...@bluehome.net wrote: Ineiev wrote: I'm not sure the exception should apply to it. Yeah, the idea was that it was for embedded distros that target machines with insufficient storage, RAM CPU power to compile their own software themselves. The exception doesn't make much sense outside of the embedded world. What if a distro is not self-hosting, but can be built from another fully free distro which is on the FSF's list of free distros? Consider that adding development tools and the entire toolchain for several languages in which the tools are written, and handling dependencies, may be a considerable amount of work. But what is the gain? RLSD already builds from Trisquel iirc, i.e. it already builds from a fully free distro. Does the fact that it can't build itself make it unsuitable for the FSF's list? Perhaps the rules can be changed or an exception made? After all, how does it really matter whether a distro builds itself or from another free distro, especially if it's small without any development tools? I'd ask RMS. Is he subscribed to this list (or should I send to him directly)? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 06:45:27PM +0300, Dima Krasner wrote: RLSD is designed to be extremely lightweight, for embedded use, revival of old hardware (e.g a libre home web server for cheap) and underpowered modern hardware (e.g netbooks). Perhaps the point is that there are easily available systems the distro can run on that are sufficiently powerful for development. For example, you can run a LiveDVD on a HDD-less computer, and you can't develop the distro in that configuration, but of course it doesn't mean that distribution shouldn't be self-hosting. Embedded systems are only one use case of the distribution. I'm not sure old hardware really qualifies as embedded.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 08:40:06PM +0300, Dima Krasner wrote: Yes, the distro is cross-compiled and not self-hosted. But it doesn't look like a distro specifically for small devices, does it? I'm not sure the exception should apply to it.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
Ineiev wrote: I'm not sure the exception should apply to it. Yeah, the idea was that it was for embedded distros that target machines with insufficient storage, RAM CPU power to compile their own software themselves. The exception doesn't make much sense outside of the embedded world.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] RLSD GNU/Linux-libre 2.x
Thank you for spotting that - fixed. Yes, the distro is cross-compiled and not self-hosted. On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:12:46 -0400 Ineiev ine...@gnu.org wrote: Hello, Dima; On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 03:04:54PM +0300, Dima Krasner wrote: Are there any remaining issues? As far as I can see, there are no development tools like compiler, so it looks like the distribution is not self-hosting [0]; also, just out of curiosity: why musl on the homepage links to glibc? [0] https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html#complete-distros -- Dima Krasner, dimakrasner.com pgpgH6V2o6FOO.pgp Description: PGP signature
