Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Okay, we have a new website and some new details announced. https://skel.af/
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
We're thinking of switching our direction slightly, and we'll be posting a further update in a month or two.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On 12/20/2016 08:46 AM, Mark H Weaver wrote: > Matt Lee writes: >> Regarding a web browser, we intend to install Chromium for our users >> rather than a Firefox-based browser. > Will there be any provision to avoid running nonfree Javascript? > > Does Chromium meet the requirements of the FSDG, specifically the > "no DRM" and "no spyware" requirements? Does it suggest nonfree plugins > or equivalent, e.g. for media codecs? > > I've heard suggestions that Chromium leaks private information to Google > even when users do the obvious things to try to avoid it, but I haven't > looked carefully. Can anyone here cite reliable sources of information > on this? > > Thanks, >Mark > > ALL Chromium forks have non-free code. I have been actively looking for *any* libre versions and have found none. The closest thing we have is Iridium, and it still contains non-free licenses. https://github.com/iridium-browser/iridium-browser/issues/93 Chromium and it's derivatives even fail Ubuntu's license check: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=28291 The inox-patchset removes *some* of the Google SaaS code, but does not remove non-free licensed code and even admits not to being able to block all transmissions to Google. https://github.com/gcarq/inox-patchset Luke signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Matt Lee writes: > Regarding a web browser, we intend to install Chromium for our users > rather than a Firefox-based browser. Will there be any provision to avoid running nonfree Javascript? Does Chromium meet the requirements of the FSDG, specifically the "no DRM" and "no spyware" requirements? Does it suggest nonfree plugins or equivalent, e.g. for media codecs? I've heard suggestions that Chromium leaks private information to Google even when users do the obvious things to try to avoid it, but I haven't looked carefully. Can anyone here cite reliable sources of information on this? Thanks, Mark
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Skeleton GNU/Linux will have systemd.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016, Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer wrote: > Matt Lee writes: > > > It's not obvious that gNewSense is similar to us. I just struggled to > > download an ISO and found it running a 3.2 kernel. Our project is > > based on modern Debian releases with minimal changes. Perhaps there's > > more to gNewSense that I'm missing and their website is just having a > > tough time today. > > Oh never mind then. I just thought it's the go-to Debian-based Free > System Distribution but I guess it's not maintained that well. FYI, http://gnuinos.org is actively developed and aims to be a 100% libre distro based on Devuan, which is Debian just without systemd. the lead developer is Aitor and he has recently updated it to use the linux-libre series version 4. Gnuinos is still alpha stage, I guess he'll apply for review here once ready sometime soon in the future. I really appreciate his efforts and we'll likely run a Devuan-libre repository (using our package repository daemon amprolla) to block all non-free packages in the future. ciao -- ~.,_ Denis Roio aka Jaromilhttp://Dyne.org think &do tank "+. CTO and co-founder free/open source developers @) ⚷ crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره @@) GnuPG: 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 (@@@) opmsg:73a8e097a038d82b 8afb4c05804bda0d 281b3880fbc19b88
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Matt Lee writes: > It's not obvious that gNewSense is similar to us. I just struggled to > download an ISO and found it running a 3.2 kernel. Our project is > based on modern Debian releases with minimal changes. Perhaps there's > more to gNewSense that I'm missing and their website is just having a > tough time today. Oh never mind then. I just thought it's the go-to Debian-based Free System Distribution but I guess it's not maintained that well. Taylan
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Sorry, none of this applies to Skeleton. We ship with Emacs and creative tools. We'll ship with a regular browser.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Dear Zlatan, On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:25:18AM +0100, Zlatan Todoric wrote: > > I am user, so it is very user friendly to me. The sources, with the > > build are just 12 MB, that is also very user friendly, considering, > > that Internet connection in Africa is not as good as yours. Even > > compiling of Chrome or IceCat, is simply going to fail, if I am not > > running on solar powered battery, as there are often power outages > > here. > > No, you're a developer and user. I am developer and user. My friend is user > and mechanic. He and *HUGE* majority don't care about is it 12MB or 120MB, > the size doesn't mean anything to them in this age. Africa - we need to fix > connection and electrical supply and not put UX backwards. None of average > users will compile (unless you ask them to do it or they find it curios - > which has a chance he will be a developer). When somebody is mechanic, it means not the person is dumb or that cannot program. It also does not mean he/she shall be served with software in such manner to remain user, and nothing else. Even for IceCat and other Firefox similar browsers, there is learning time before user can use it actually. That learning curve is certainly way longer and more complex than learning how to use uzbl browser. I am not voting for you to use it, or deliver to your users, I have explained how I am not in a position to download IceCat whenever I wish, it is large. It takes long time to compile, and it shall fit on a single 32 GB memory stick or USB together with other software, to be easily copied onto other computers. You cannot fix electrical connection in whole Africa. But we can put software on a stick and copy to each other. That is very practical. When you speak of average users, you have certain area of world where which you are targeting, I guess Western countries. The true average user definition is far from that. > > Small browser with few configuration files and perfectly customizable, > > with high privacy levels, seem to be very user friendly. > > Most of people don't understand even what privacy means (we in Purism > struggle so much to justify that) - so not really something majority would > consider user-friendly. I have made an interview here with somebody, he said he was using Linux. I asked him what is GNU, he did not know. I have shown him the company computer, where it says "GNU" on screen, he did not know it is "Linux". Then I told him how GNU started, and how Linux kernel came to it, and how it shall be called GNU/Linux rather. He was programming application on Android. I asked him about kernel on Android, he did not know. It took us 20 minutes to synchronize the thoughts, and he understood it. That was the only person who knew about programming that came to interview. The other staff members, 5 people in total, they could learn Emacs within one hour (someone shorter or longer) and start translating, even using Org Mode. Everbody is being taught on privacy, and they apply it. In summary, free software movement and cultue is not just selling free software. It is about teaching others, and sharing, and elevating their levels of knowledge. > > Yes, we shall teach users how to use computing tools, software and how > > to become programmers. I am not somebody who likes leaving users in a > > stage of not knowing what they can do with a computer and software. > > No, we should not. My friend mechanic is not forcing me to know how car > works or how to fix it in order just to drive it. "Force" - I have not mentioned. I am against any coercion. Teaching is not forcing. I agree on that, users shall not be forced. On the other hand, they shall also not be treated dumb. Free software documentation shall be delivered with a distribution. Programming languages shall be delivered. The documentation for browser shall be delivered too. But I have never get reall documentation with Firefox, I don't remember. Not even with IceCat, I get enough documentation. That is not empowering. There was time when users were not treated dumb, the time of small computers, and each computer buyer was treated as smart person, able to write programs. Even Microsoft, that was monopolizing the PC market with proprietary operating system, was delivering large 2 books with each MS-DOS copy, those book were about the MS-DOS commands and shell environment, and GW-BASIC if I remember well. Each PC user at that time have got software that is empowering them. They shared programs at that time much more than today, in terms of sharing sources. Companies were making invoicing programs and accounting, all custom made, and private people were making games, teachers making physical and mathematical demonstrations and quizzes. Nobody was forced to program, but when you got a large 2 books with the PC, both related to programming, well written, you had an opportunity to learn more, by the choice, and not by coercion. The GNU/Emacs screen *scratch* does not force anyone
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Robert Call (Bob) wrote: > Is there a mailing list? How can one get involved with this project? Hey Bob -- we have a list, not public yet. But I'll add you :) We have a lot to be done.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
(sorry for another off-topic post) On 11/11/2016 12:09 AM, Jean Louis wrote: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:49:35PM +0100, Zlatan Todoric wrote: On 11/10/2016 11:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 05:09:52PM -0500, Matt Lee wrote: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Jean Louis wrote: I am glad for that. Personally, I am avoiding it due to larger size, and compiling taking time. I am using now Dillo, Xombrero, uzbl and surf. uzbl is in particular very usable. I'm not going to ask our users to use one of those. uzbl doesn't have an address bar to enter a URL. We'll ship Chromium with some fixes to make it compliant, or possibly Firefox with fixes. But please uzbl has address bar to enter the URL. It is just not up, it is down. I am entering URLs in uzbl address bar all the times. And what is really nice with uzbl, you can make your own address bar in any way you like, enter it, and pipe it to the browser (users would not know it if you wish so). Cool, just recently Internet Explorer stopped being the most used browser (replaced by Google Chrome) and you're suggesting uzbl. User-friendly is not your stronger side? I mean, yea, lets take uzbl, explain to users that bar is down and that, they can make their own address bar in any way they like and pipe it to browser. I see hundreds of millions moving to uzbl as we speak. I am really not sure are you just being sarcastic at this moment as I can't get this seriously. I have reviewed your website with uzbl browser. http://www.uzbl.org - it is excellent browser, serving all my needs. Very customizable and powerful. You have not obviously tried it and could not understand it. I used uzbl as well as surf (heck not long time ago my environment was xmonad) but... I am user, so it is very user friendly to me. The sources, with the build are just 12 MB, that is also very user friendly, considering, that Internet connection in Africa is not as good as yours. Even compiling of Chrome or IceCat, is simply going to fail, if I am not running on solar powered battery, as there are often power outages here. No, you're a developer and user. I am developer and user. My friend is user and mechanic. He and *HUGE* majority don't care about is it 12MB or 120MB, the size doesn't mean anything to them in this age. Africa - we need to fix connection and electrical supply and not put UX backwards. None of average users will compile (unless you ask them to do it or they find it curios - which has a chance he will be a developer). Small browser with few configuration files and perfectly customizable, with high privacy levels, seem to be very user friendly. Most of people don't understand even what privacy means (we in Purism struggle so much to justify that) - so not really something majority would consider user-friendly. Yes, we shall teach users how to use computing tools, software and how to become programmers. I am not somebody who likes leaving users in a stage of not knowing what they can do with a computer and software. No, we should not. My friend mechanic is not forcing me to know how car works or how to fix it in order just to drive it. I don't want to be a mechanic. And he can be pissed of about it, but it will still not change my will. Do you know how to fix car and how it works - should someone teach you if you want just to drive or take a cab? What about planes? Do you know all about them? And TV? And radio? And washing machine? With 17 years I have been giving courses in computer programming languages such as Logo and BASIC, not far from your birth place, and people from that computer club have advanced in life as programmers. Cool, and keep going on, just don't force people to learn it. Finally, average Tanzanian, working here in my company, learns Emacs tutorial within 60 minutes, and uzbl within 5 minutes. Even if those people don't have much access to computer otherwise. And average person already uses Firefox/Chrome/Opera/Safari and maybe it will surprise you - they hardly even think about it, it just works for them. Tomorrow, I will test uzbl on a new person, and I will see how fast that person can learn to use it, and will let you know. I wanted now to do the same test with new person but only instead of uzbl, I wanted to teach them Firefox. I was out of luck - they already knew it :-/ Cheers.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On Thu, 2016-11-10 at 16:01 -0500, Matt Lee wrote: > It's not obvious that gNewSense is similar to us. I just struggled to > download an ISO and found it running a 3.2 kernel. Our project is > based on modern Debian releases with minimal changes. Perhaps there's > more to gNewSense that I'm missing and their website is just having a > tough time today. > > I was also unaware that gNewSense was now based on Debian, though. > Perhaps future releases of gNewSense will be based on Skeleton > GNU/Linux. > Is there a mailing list? How can one get involved with this project? -- Robert Call (Bob) b...@librecmc.org https://librecmc.org
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:49:35PM +0100, Zlatan Todoric wrote: > > > On 11/10/2016 11:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 05:09:52PM -0500, Matt Lee wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > > > > > > > I am glad for that. Personally, I am avoiding it due to larger size, > > > > and compiling taking time. I am using now Dillo, Xombrero, uzbl and > > > > surf. > > > > > > > > uzbl is in particular very usable. > > > I'm not going to ask our users to use one of those. > > > uzbl doesn't have an address bar to enter a URL. > > > > > > We'll ship Chromium with some fixes to make it compliant, or possibly > > > Firefox with fixes. > > But please uzbl has address bar to enter the URL. It is just not up, > > it is down. I am entering URLs in uzbl address bar all the times. And > > what is really nice with uzbl, you can make your own address bar in > > any way you like, enter it, and pipe it to the browser (users would > > not know it if you wish so). > > Cool, just recently Internet Explorer stopped being the most used browser > (replaced by Google Chrome) and you're suggesting uzbl. User-friendly is not > your stronger side? I mean, yea, lets take uzbl, explain to users that bar > is down and that, they can make their own address bar in any way they like > and pipe it to browser. I see hundreds of millions moving to uzbl as we > speak. > > I am really not sure are you just being sarcastic at this moment as I can't > get this seriously. I have reviewed your website with uzbl browser. http://www.uzbl.org - it is excellent browser, serving all my needs. Very customizable and powerful. You have not obviously tried it and could not understand it. I am user, so it is very user friendly to me. The sources, with the build are just 12 MB, that is also very user friendly, considering, that Internet connection in Africa is not as good as yours. Even compiling of Chrome or IceCat, is simply going to fail, if I am not running on solar powered battery, as there are often power outages here. Small browser with few configuration files and perfectly customizable, with high privacy levels, seem to be very user friendly. Yes, we shall teach users how to use computing tools, software and how to become programmers. I am not somebody who likes leaving users in a stage of not knowing what they can do with a computer and software. With 17 years I have been giving courses in computer programming languages such as Logo and BASIC, not far from your birth place, and people from that computer club have advanced in life as programmers. Finally, average Tanzanian, working here in my company, learns Emacs tutorial within 60 minutes, and uzbl within 5 minutes. Even if those people don't have much access to computer otherwise. Tomorrow, I will test uzbl on a new person, and I will see how fast that person can learn to use it, and will let you know. Jean Louis
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On 11/10/2016 11:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 05:09:52PM -0500, Matt Lee wrote: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Jean Louis wrote: I am glad for that. Personally, I am avoiding it due to larger size, and compiling taking time. I am using now Dillo, Xombrero, uzbl and surf. uzbl is in particular very usable. I'm not going to ask our users to use one of those. uzbl doesn't have an address bar to enter a URL. We'll ship Chromium with some fixes to make it compliant, or possibly Firefox with fixes. But please uzbl has address bar to enter the URL. It is just not up, it is down. I am entering URLs in uzbl address bar all the times. And what is really nice with uzbl, you can make your own address bar in any way you like, enter it, and pipe it to the browser (users would not know it if you wish so). Cool, just recently Internet Explorer stopped being the most used browser (replaced by Google Chrome) and you're suggesting uzbl. User-friendly is not your stronger side? I mean, yea, lets take uzbl, explain to users that bar is down and that, they can make their own address bar in any way they like and pipe it to browser. I see hundreds of millions moving to uzbl as we speak. I am really not sure are you just being sarcastic at this moment as I can't get this seriously. Jean Louis
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 05:09:52PM -0500, Matt Lee wrote: > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > > > I am glad for that. Personally, I am avoiding it due to larger size, > > and compiling taking time. I am using now Dillo, Xombrero, uzbl and > > surf. > > > > uzbl is in particular very usable. > > I'm not going to ask our users to use one of those. > uzbl doesn't have an address bar to enter a URL. > > We'll ship Chromium with some fixes to make it compliant, or possibly > Firefox with fixes. But please uzbl has address bar to enter the URL. It is just not up, it is down. I am entering URLs in uzbl address bar all the times. And what is really nice with uzbl, you can make your own address bar in any way you like, enter it, and pipe it to the browser (users would not know it if you wish so). Jean Louis
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > I am glad for that. Personally, I am avoiding it due to larger size, > and compiling taking time. I am using now Dillo, Xombrero, uzbl and > surf. > > uzbl is in particular very usable. I'm not going to ask our users to use one of those. uzbl doesn't have an address bar to enter a URL. We'll ship Chromium with some fixes to make it compliant, or possibly Firefox with fixes.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 04:49:07PM -0500, Matt Lee wrote: > Thanks. > > I'm not sure that link on the LP wiki is valid anymore (it's also > broken) -- Chromium may have some issues but I don't believe its > proprietary. I think that was fixed. I am glad for that. Personally, I am avoiding it due to larger size, and compiling taking time. I am using now Dillo, Xombrero, uzbl and surf. uzbl is in particular very usable. Jean Louis
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Thanks. I'm not sure that link on the LP wiki is valid anymore (it's also broken) -- Chromium may have some issues but I don't believe its proprietary. I think that was fixed.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Maybe this link is of interest to Skeleton: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines And in regards to Chromium: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines#chromium-browser Jean Louis On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 04:01:01PM -0500, Matt Lee wrote: > It's not obvious that gNewSense is similar to us. I just struggled to > download an ISO and found it running a 3.2 kernel. Our project is > based on modern Debian releases with minimal changes. Perhaps there's > more to gNewSense that I'm missing and their website is just having a > tough time today. > > I was also unaware that gNewSense was now based on Debian, though. > Perhaps future releases of gNewSense will be based on Skeleton > GNU/Linux. > > Certainly, I like gNewSense -- they're prominently featured in my film > with Stephen Fry.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
Matt Lee writes: > So this discussion of PureOS has forced us to raise our heads a little. > > We're working on a distribution based on Debian also, ours is called > Skeleton GNU/Linux. Please note, we are firmly committed to this name > and branding, even if our logo is very temporary :) > > We have an early website up at https://mat.tl/skeleton/ > > Our plan is to take Debian main, and offer up a subset of packages > upon installation -- focusing our efforts on mostly GNU packages -- > GNOME, Emacs, GIMP, etc. We'll be installing various tools for > creativity also. Our goal is clear: get the best parts of Debian > signed off by the FSF, so we can get the best distribution (in our > opinion) into the hands of users of 100% free distros. > > Regarding a web browser, we intend to install Chromium for our users > rather than a Firefox-based browser. > > We're starting a backlog of issues here: > https://git.gnu.io/skeleton/gnu-linux/boards Hi! Not to be judgmental --the more the merrier-- but may I ask how your project differs from gNewSense? As far as I recall, that does the same thing: take Debian and make it FSDG compliant; is that correct? Taylan
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
It's not obvious that gNewSense is similar to us. I just struggled to download an ISO and found it running a 3.2 kernel. Our project is based on modern Debian releases with minimal changes. Perhaps there's more to gNewSense that I'm missing and their website is just having a tough time today. I was also unaware that gNewSense was now based on Debian, though. Perhaps future releases of gNewSense will be based on Skeleton GNU/Linux. Certainly, I like gNewSense -- they're prominently featured in my film with Stephen Fry.
[GNU-linux-libre] Skeleton GNU/Linux
So this discussion of PureOS has forced us to raise our heads a little. We're working on a distribution based on Debian also, ours is called Skeleton GNU/Linux. Please note, we are firmly committed to this name and branding, even if our logo is very temporary :) We have an early website up at https://mat.tl/skeleton/ Our plan is to take Debian main, and offer up a subset of packages upon installation -- focusing our efforts on mostly GNU packages -- GNOME, Emacs, GIMP, etc. We'll be installing various tools for creativity also. Our goal is clear: get the best parts of Debian signed off by the FSF, so we can get the best distribution (in our opinion) into the hands of users of 100% free distros. Regarding a web browser, we intend to install Chromium for our users rather than a Firefox-based browser. We're starting a backlog of issues here: https://git.gnu.io/skeleton/gnu-linux/boards
