Re: [GNU-linux-libre] programs which only use-case is non-free Was: Adding some scummvm
Hi, Sorry for the late reply. On Wed, 03 May 2023 21:10:21 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > Normally what we mean by "steering users" towards installing a certain > (nonfree) program is text that suggests installing it. For instance, > including that program in a list of programs available to install. > > The scummvm case is quite different. It is useful only for running > certain nonfree games. Does this imply that offering to install > scummvm is tantamount to steering the user towards those nonfree > games? > > This is a borderline case. I think that "stearing towards" installing > a game has to involve listing the game itself among things that the > user could install. Just listing scummvm among things that the user > could install does not seem to get there. > > But I think it would be better not to include scummvm in the packages > of a distro. I'm unsure if we reached some conclusion or not in this thread. My initial question was more about the license of some specific games, and not about scummVM itself nor about the lack of source code, specifically because that looked way easier to decide on that (and also because I didn't see a part of the license). If for some reasons that license is free, or if we don't want to decide if it's free or not, we would then need to do some research and look if the game files are archives that contain some source code (maybe the scummvm-tools package could help with that). And we would also need to make sure that the code or game data is modifiable with free software. So we'd need to review software like QT Agi Studio[1] (GPL v2?v3?+?) to see if it works or if it has nonfree dependencies, or if it has trademarks issues or not or understand trademark implications. And at the end of the day that, after all that we would still require the license to be free as well anyway, so we'd have to decide on that. Then since ScummVM reimplements an initially nonfree game engine, to understand if scummvm is borderline or not we would need to verify that: (1) There is no compatible free game or program redistributed by the scummvm project somehow. This is easy to do if we decided that the license is nonfree. If the license is free it's very time consuming. (2) There no game made for the original nonfree game engine that also works with scummvm and that is free. All redistributable games for the original engine are probably already hosted by the scummvm project so this should be relatively fast to confirm. (3) There is also no game made specifically for scummvm that is free. So we'd need to look into games like broken sword 2.5 to see if they are free or not. And here again, depending on if we find a free license or not, or which tools it needs, the work could be time consuming or fast. References: --- [1]https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=AGIWiki/QT_AGI_Studio Denis. pgpQ8mTZ8bWL0.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] programs which only use-case is non-free Was: Adding some scummvm
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > some have suggested that it conflicts with the "steering toward" guideline, > for an FSDG distro to distribute a program, which only known use-case (other > than hack to it out) is to install or wrap some other non-free program > (flash-player-installer is exemplary) - this is generally considered to be > "steering toward" use of some other non-free program, prohibited per the FSDG Normally what we mean by "steering users" towards installing a certain (nonfree) program is text that suggests installing it. For instance, including that program in a list of programs available to install. The scummvm case is quite different. It is useful only for running certain nonfree games. Does this imply that offering to install scummvm is tantamount to steering the user towards those nonfree games? This is a borderline case. I think that "stearing towards" installing a game has to involve listing the game itself among things that the user could install. Just listing scummvm among things that the user could install does not seem to get there. But I think it would be better not to include scummvm in the packages of a distro. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] programs which only use-case is non-free Was: Adding some scummvm
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 23:36:34 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > this is one of those FSDG grey-areas, for which it would be good to > have some consensus It sounds like what you're talking about his how to handle distro-specific packaging decisions. It's important to note that the FSDG doesn't seem to prevent distro maintainers from adopting an even broader interpretation of "steering users to nonfree software" than what the FSDG might require, nor does it seem to require distro maintainers to include any software that they don't wish to, for whatever reason they don't wish to, even if it would be permissible under the FSDG, so they'll still be able to exclude such software regardless. pgprurHBMuXRA.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] programs which only use-case is non-free Was: Adding some scummvm
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 21:58:54 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > without those, distros would likely stop distributing the > game engine also; so its a "package deal" really i would like to expand on this point - it has broader implications for the FSDG, and is a recurring topic of discussion some have suggested that it conflicts with the "steering toward" guideline, for an FSDG distro to distribute a program, which only known use-case (other than hack to it out) is to install or wrap some other non-free program (flash-player-installer is exemplary) - this is generally considered to be "steering toward" use of some other non-free program, prohibited per the FSDG WRT scummvm, there o/c remains the use-case of writing a new game for it; but that is equivalent, in all aspects but the work-load, to hacking-out specific bits of some code-base, in order to make it fit the FSDG (eg: someone could hack flash-player-installer to point at a libre file) both are possible and common; but neither would fully excuse the "steering toward" guideline, until indeed some libre replacement exists, for the distro to "deflect toward" - ie: without the deflection of intention, to distribute scummvm, is to "steer toward" playing non-free games this is one of those FSDG grey-areas, for which it would be good to have some consensus
