Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[Liz]

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 06:31:02 +1000
David H  wrote:

> This is getting ridiculous, can we stop the personal attacks now
> please.


I do not permit personal attacks on these English language Gnucash
lists which I moderate.

I privately email offenders to keep all of this off-list.

Liz
Moderator
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Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[Borden via gnucash-devel]

> 1:
> after some cooling down of this discussion, you should create a pull
> request against
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/po/glossary/gnc-glossary.txt
>
I don't know what everybody's hysterical about, myself. I think using proper 
accounting terminology is useful, so  I'm happy to contribute effort to it. All 
other open source software I've used strives for technical accuracy, so I'm 
happy to help GNC achieve the same.


> If someone from the Commonwealt volunteers to maintain it, we can create
> a "british" version glossary/en_GB.po and upload it to
> https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/glossary/
>
I think you misunderstood. IFRS stands for "International Financial Reporting 
Standards" and have been adopted by most countries outside  the United States. 
So if you want a vocabulary that the most accountants worldwide will have 
studied, IFRS is your reference.

Think of IFRS as  the ISO  standard of financial reporting. And, like most 
international standards and laws, the US has to be different and invent their 
own.

US GAAP is the only other "dominant" accounting standard because most of the 
world's financial traffic goes through their stock exchanges. Having said that, 
I believe most US exchanges allow listers to choose US GAAP or IFRS for 
reporting. As such, I haven't been trained in US GAAP and only know that it's 
not IFRS. But I'd nevertheless be happy to poke through the standards - if I 
can get a hold of them - to pick up differences where they exist.

A US CPA would be even better at commenting, assuming that they know anything 
about IFRS.

Again, I'm happy to lend my knowledge and resources to GNC if the project 
thinks it's valuable. If this is not the direction GNC wants to go in, I 
respect that. I'll still use the software because it does what I need it to do 
better than QB.

But that wasn't the original problem. This all started because I voiced my 
support for having designating a per-file fiscal year-end. But if you want to 
know what the "best" name is for the checkbox, I've given my opinion.

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Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[Arman Schwarz]

This seems like a lot of work. Kudos to anyone who wants to put in the
time, but I think the cost of maintaining a separate glossary exceeds the
benefit. To be clear, by "cost" I don't just mean the effort of creating
it, but also the risk that the newstarter community will be left to wade
through poorly maintained UK forks of US English pages.

As an Australian I may never have used the term "fiscal year" but it's
obvious what it means. I suspect once the dust settles most will agree this
isn't an important change. Congratulations on getting all fired up over a
discussion on financial years.

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021, 8:32 am Frank H. Ellenberger, <
frank.h.ellenber...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There are at least 2 steps:
> 1. define the terminology as glossary
> 2. apply it  to the messages of the program.
>
> 1:
> after some cooling down of this discussion, you should create a pull
> request against
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/po/glossary/gnc-glossary.txt
>
> If someone from the Commonwealt volunteers to maintain it, we can create
> a "british" version glossary/en_GB.po and upload it to
> https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/glossary/
>
> 2:
> Search
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/po/en_GB.po for all
> occurences of the word:
> The msgid is the US, msgstr the British form.
> To change the british form ONLY, just channge it at
> https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/gnucash/en_GB/
>
> To change a msgid, apply it to the sources (#:) and create a pull
> request. Keep in mind that all translators have to review their
> translations for this change!
>
> More details:
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Translation
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/I18N
>
> Much success!
> Frank
>
> Am 07.09.21 um 23:04 schrieb Borden via gnucash-devel:
> …
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Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[davidcousens49]

Possibly needs  crossreferences in the glossary. Accounting period is really a
general term which can be any of weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi annual,
annual, financial year, fiscal year as required by external and internal
reporting requirements for an entity (person, business, company etc). The
external requirements are often defined by legislation nd regulations in
specific legal jurisdictions and the internal requirements by specific
manangement practice. 

David Cousens

On Tue, 2021-09-07 at 20:53 +1000, flywire wrote:
> > ...if I'm going to talk to a doctor (especially over the phone these days),
> > I'll take 10 minutes on the Internet so I can say that the pain is "along my
> > lymph nodes on the right side of my neck" than "the bumps next to my
> > throat."
> 
> I wouldn't after 4 years of animal science (humans plus) plus a lot of home
> butchery. Look up the Dunning-Kruger Effect, two blokes got a nobel prize
> for saying you're full of shit. Your GP knows bugger all about lymph nodes
> anyway.
> 
> If you know your stuff you should be able to explain it in simple terms but
> communication skills are often more of a challenge for people with a maths
> focus. Use plain English minimising technical terms to where they are
> needed but assume nobody knows what they mean. Credit/debit are a special
> case because the community *know* what they mean, and it's exactly opposite
> to the accounting definition, so I agree deposit/withdrawal are better
> terms.
> 
> I checked the docs and only found Fiscal Year referenced twice, both in the
> Guide [better in wiki faq]. Interestingly the accounting period definition
> in the glossary meant nothing to me but the depreciation section has
> "accounting period (IE: fiscal year)" so I Googled fiscal year, found
> financial year then understood it.
> ___
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> gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

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Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[Frank H. Ellenberger]

Hi,

There are at least 2 steps:
1. define the terminology as glossary
2. apply it  to the messages of the program.

1:
after some cooling down of this discussion, you should create a pull
request against
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/po/glossary/gnc-glossary.txt

If someone from the Commonwealt volunteers to maintain it, we can create
a "british" version glossary/en_GB.po and upload it to
https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/glossary/

2:
Search
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/po/en_GB.po for all
occurences of the word:
The msgid is the US, msgstr the British form.
To change the british form ONLY, just channge it at
https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/gnucash/en_GB/

To change a msgid, apply it to the sources (#:) and create a pull
request. Keep in mind that all translators have to review their
translations for this change!

More details:
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Translation
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/I18N

Much success!
Frank

Am 07.09.21 um 23:04 schrieb Borden via gnucash-devel:
…
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Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[Borden via gnucash-devel]

> This is getting ridiculous, can we stop the personal attacks now please.  
> Let's just accept that different countries call it Fiscal Year and others 
> call it Financial Year - my own accountant here in Oz calls it Financial Year 
> and that is also what we called it in NZ when I lived there.  I guess we're a 
> bit more relaxed about it down under :-)
>
I apologise if any of my observations were "personal attacks." There were  
demonstrably false things said, so I corrected them and encouraged the poster 
to expand his knowledge. I'd expect the same for me if I post things that are 
wrong.

Maybe in Oceana "Financial Year" is the standard language. I'd love to hear 
your accountant's perspective with supporting references. I'm saying I've never 
seen it, including in  IFRS or any textbook. But Commonwealth countries put Us 
in their words and Americans take them out, so I'm sure different countries 
have different accounting terminology. I grew up with the terms "Balance Sheet" 
and "Income Statement," but "Statement of Financial Position" and "Statement of 
Profit and Loss" are becoming more common. So the language evolves, too.


> As to your last comment well, it is an uphill battle sometimes.  Just think 
> about why there is even a Deposit/Withdrawal flag option - because users 
> struggle to think in terms of statement debits and credits and whether they 
> are from the banks point of view or their own.  Gnucash is littered with 
> users that are totally new to double entry accounting and sometimes seem 
> unable to even read a User Guide/Tutorial and Concepts guide :-(
>
And if users don't want to RTFM, that's their right. I also respect the 
software designers' audience. If the project's goals are to be 
professional-grade software, then I recommend using the proper terminology. If 
the project's goals are to improve information between bookkeepers and 
accountants, then I recommend using the proper terminology.

And this is why open source software lets one fork and rewrite. If I want it to 
be professional software and the GNUCash devs don't, then I can always fork the 
project and hire a team of programmers to tighten it up.
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Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[David H]

This is getting ridiculous, can we stop the personal attacks now please.
Let's just accept that different countries call it Fiscal Year and others
call it Financial Year - my own accountant here in Oz calls it Financial
Year and that is also what we called it in NZ when I lived there.  I guess
we're a bit more relaxed about it down under :-)

As to your last comment well, it is an uphill battle sometimes.  Just think
about why there is even a Deposit/Withdrawal flag option - because users
struggle to think in terms of statement debits and credits and whether they
are from the banks point of view or their own.  Gnucash is littered with
users that are totally new to double entry accounting and sometimes seem
unable to even read a User Guide/Tutorial and Concepts guide :-(

Cheers David Halverson.


On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 04:50, Borden via gnucash-devel <
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org> wrote:

>
>
> >
> > I wouldn't after 4 years of animal science (humans plus) plus a lot of
> home
> > butchery. Look up the Dunning-Kruger Effect, two blokes got a nobel prize
> > for saying you're full of shit. Your GP knows bugger all about lymph
> nodes
> > anyway.
> >
> 1) In what year  did David Dunning and/or Justin Kruger win the Nobel
> Prize? And in what category? There is no Nobel Prize in psychology. So
> they'd either win in medicine or economics, but I can't see their names in
> either roll since 1999 - when they published their paper describing the
> phenomenon. I could be wrong.
>
> 2) If you think I don't know what I'm talking about with respect to
> accounting, it appears that the institutions that awarded me my CFE pass,
> MBA and BComm in Accounting (with honours) made terrible mistakes.
>
> 3) The way to fight the Dunning-Kruger Effect is constantly challenging
> yourself to learn more:
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/basics/dunning-kruger-effect#how-to-avoid-it
>  .
> That means developing your critical thinking skills so you can reference
> from reliable sources and verify with people who know more than you. <
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/basics/dunning-kruger-effect#how-to-avoid-it
> >
>
> 4) Basic anatomy is a prerequisite for doctors in most parts of the world.
> I don't know what the state of medicine is in your part of the world where
> you have to butcher your own animals, but in mine, it's pretty good. The
> doctors I've had have been excellent in their professionalism and diagnoses.
>
> You might want to take Dunning and Kruger's advice before flame baiting
> someone clearly more experienced and trained in this than you.
>
> >
> > If you know your stuff you should be able to explain it in simple terms
> but
> > communication skills are often more of a challenge for people with a
> maths
> > focus.
> >
> Yes, that's for teaching. But every discipline has its technical language
> so that it can agree on a simple word to communicate a larger idea.
>
> Actually, some more education for you: my professional exams were about >
> 90% essay writing and < 10% calculations. Most of my daily work is reading
> rules and standards, interpreting facts, and giving opinions as to how the
> rules apply to facts:
> https://www.cpacanada.ca/en/become-a-cpa/why-become-a-cpa/the-cpa-certification-program/the-cpa-way
>
> So, again, I'd encourage you to learn more about accounting before saying
> that we lack communication skills.
>
> > Use plain English minimising technical terms to where they are
> > needed but assume nobody knows what they mean. Credit/debit are a special
> > case because the community *know* what they mean, and it's exactly
> opposite
> > to the accounting definition, so I agree deposit/withdrawal are better
> > terms.
> >
> They actually aren't the opposite definition. "Debit" and "credit" are
> relative like "left" and "right." The statements are written from the
> _bank's_ perspective, not the account holder's. If I enter a transaction
> with you, my debit is your credit, just like if I hand you something with
> my right hand, it arrives on your left-hand side.
>
> Deposit/withdrawal are fine for simple bank accounts, but they scale
> poorly outside of bank accounts. If I want to "deposit" $100 into a
> shareholder loan or equity account, I make a credit in the books, not a
> debit. That means you need to reverse your terminology depending on the
> situation. How does that reduce confusion? It's even worse when you get to
> revenue and expense accounts. What does a "withdrawal" from revenue even
> supposed mean?
>
> > I checked the docs and only found Fiscal Year referenced twice, both in
> the
> > Guide [better in wiki faq]. Interestingly the accounting period
> definition
> > in the glossary meant nothing to me but the depreciation section has
> > "accounting period (IE: fiscal year)" so I Googled fiscal year, found
> > financial year then understood it.
> >
> And I'm talking about the standards and textbooks written by people who
> know far more about accounting than I do. The GNUCash 

Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[Borden via gnucash-devel]

>
> I wouldn't after 4 years of animal science (humans plus) plus a lot of home
> butchery. Look up the Dunning-Kruger Effect, two blokes got a nobel prize
> for saying you're full of shit. Your GP knows bugger all about lymph nodes
> anyway.
>
1) In what year  did David Dunning and/or Justin Kruger win the Nobel Prize? 
And in what category? There is no Nobel Prize in psychology. So they'd either 
win in medicine or economics, but I can't see their names in either roll since 
1999 - when they published their paper describing the phenomenon. I could be 
wrong.

2) If you think I don't know what I'm talking about with respect to accounting, 
it appears that the institutions that awarded me my CFE pass, MBA and BComm in 
Accounting (with honours) made terrible mistakes.

3) The way to fight the Dunning-Kruger Effect is constantly challenging 
yourself to learn more: 
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/basics/dunning-kruger-effect#how-to-avoid-it 
. That means developing your critical thinking skills so you can reference from 
reliable sources and verify with people who know more than you. 


4) Basic anatomy is a prerequisite for doctors in most parts of the world. I 
don't know what the state of medicine is in your part of the world where you 
have to butcher your own animals, but in mine, it's pretty good. The doctors 
I've had have been excellent in their professionalism and diagnoses.

You might want to take Dunning and Kruger's advice before flame baiting someone 
clearly more experienced and trained in this than you.

>
> If you know your stuff you should be able to explain it in simple terms but
> communication skills are often more of a challenge for people with a maths
> focus.
>
Yes, that's for teaching. But every discipline has its technical language so 
that it can agree on a simple word to communicate a larger idea.

Actually, some more education for you: my professional exams were about > 90% 
essay writing and < 10% calculations. Most of my daily work is reading rules 
and standards, interpreting facts, and giving opinions as to how the rules 
apply to facts: 
https://www.cpacanada.ca/en/become-a-cpa/why-become-a-cpa/the-cpa-certification-program/the-cpa-way

So, again, I'd encourage you to learn more about accounting before saying that 
we lack communication skills.

> Use plain English minimising technical terms to where they are
> needed but assume nobody knows what they mean. Credit/debit are a special
> case because the community *know* what they mean, and it's exactly opposite
> to the accounting definition, so I agree deposit/withdrawal are better
> terms.
>
They actually aren't the opposite definition. "Debit" and "credit" are relative 
like "left" and "right." The statements are written from the _bank's_ 
perspective, not the account holder's. If I enter a transaction with you, my 
debit is your credit, just like if I hand you something with my right hand, it 
arrives on your left-hand side.

Deposit/withdrawal are fine for simple bank accounts, but they scale poorly 
outside of bank accounts. If I want to "deposit" $100 into a shareholder loan 
or equity account, I make a credit in the books, not a debit. That means you 
need to reverse your terminology depending on the situation. How does that 
reduce confusion? It's even worse when you get to revenue and expense accounts. 
What does a "withdrawal" from revenue even supposed mean?

> I checked the docs and only found Fiscal Year referenced twice, both in the
> Guide [better in wiki faq]. Interestingly the accounting period definition
> in the glossary meant nothing to me but the depreciation section has
> "accounting period (IE: fiscal year)" so I Googled fiscal year, found
> financial year then understood it.
>
And I'm talking about the standards and textbooks written by people who know 
far more about accounting than I do. The GNUCash manual, with respect, is not 
taught in any high school, university or professional programme that I've been 
exposed to.

You're evidently very passionate about your position for reasons that don't 
make any sense to me - so much so that you fall to the very mistakes you accuse 
me of making. In my line of work, though, I'd rather help  clients understand 
the basics of accounting - including proper vocabulary - so I can advise them 
on the difficult stuff. I didn't spend almost 10 years in post-secondary 
education to be a glorified data entry clerk (and nor would people want to hire 
me for data entry on the rates that I have to charge).

My opinion is based on doing this for a living and relying on the evidence I've 
collected. The evidence has taught me that using proper terminology is more 
efficient than weak synonyms for communicating and training. If you want to 
convince me that I'm wrong, show me the evidence that GNUCash users are too 
stupid to learn accounting vocabulary.

Re: [GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[flywire]

> ...if I'm going to talk to a doctor (especially over the phone these days), 
> I'll take 10 minutes on the Internet so I can say that the pain is "along my 
> lymph nodes on the right side of my neck" than "the bumps next to my throat."

I wouldn't after 4 years of animal science (humans plus) plus a lot of home
butchery. Look up the Dunning-Kruger Effect, two blokes got a nobel prize
for saying you're full of shit. Your GP knows bugger all about lymph nodes
anyway.

If you know your stuff you should be able to explain it in simple terms but
communication skills are often more of a challenge for people with a maths
focus. Use plain English minimising technical terms to where they are
needed but assume nobody knows what they mean. Credit/debit are a special
case because the community *know* what they mean, and it's exactly opposite
to the accounting definition, so I agree deposit/withdrawal are better
terms.

I checked the docs and only found Fiscal Year referenced twice, both in the
Guide [better in wiki faq]. Interestingly the accounting period definition
in the glossary meant nothing to me but the depreciation section has
"accounting period (IE: fiscal year)" so I Googled fiscal year, found
financial year then understood it.
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[GNC-dev] Report with Fiscal Year

[Borden via gnucash-devel]

>
> Formal vs. layman terminology--or behavior for that matter--is a constant 
> tension in GnuCash. AFAIK none of the developers has formal accounting 
> training past one or two college courses; most rather less. Even fewer of the 
> user base have any formal accounting training at all and so we try to be very 
> gentle about using formal accounting jargon: For example one must override a 
> default preference to see Debit and Credit column headings instead of Deposit 
> and Withdrawal. I guess Fiscal Year vs. Accounting Period falls in the same 
> bucket except that nobody's ever added Fiscal Year to the formal accounting 
> labels in GnuCash.
>
Yeah, it's one of the first settings I change.
 
My opinion is that you aren't doing anybody any favours when proper vocabulary 
exists, epecially when the Internet can bring people up to speed quickly. If 
people are smart enough to download and install GNC on their computers, they're 
definitely smart enough to learn debits, credits and proper account names.

If it's still too difficult, then there are plenty of accountants happy to 
provide guidance. Proper terminology will minimise language barriers and get to 
solutions faster. Even if a client can't use "expense" correctly in a sentence 
(most confuse it with "expenditure"), or confuse "tax credit" with "tax 
deduction", at least it gets me in the ballpark.

And, let's face it, even if most people insist on doing their own bookkeeping, 
sooner or later they're going to need a professional to file their taxes or dig 
them out of the mess they've made of their books. That's how we get most 
referrals. So they'll face the technical language sooner or later.
I eked through biology in grade 11, but if I'm going to talk to a doctor 
(especially over the phone these days), I'll take 10 minutes on the Internet so 
I can say that the pain is "along my lymph nodes on the right side of my neck" 
than "the bumps next to my throat."
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