multiple currencies
Hello,
I have a problem with the way gnucash handles multiple currencies. This
might be a simple misunderstanding on my part or a bug; I just don't
know.
Suppose I have a bank account in NLG (the default currency) and
one in USD. I want to buy USD 100 at an exchange rate of 2.30 NLG/USD.
I do this by transfering NLG 230 from by bank account in NLG
into a currency account (with currency NLG and security USD) at a price
of 2.30 and transfering USD 100 from that currency account into
the bank account in USD.
Later, the exchange rate drops to 2.20 NLG/USD and I want convert
my USD 100 bank into NLG. I transfer USD 100 from the bank account in
USD to the currency account and NLG 220 from the currency account to
my bank account in NLG, all with a price of 2.20 NLG/USD.
The final result is that by my assets have dropped by NLG 10, but this
change does not show up anywhere on the profit & loss sheet. Somehow,
I should have been able to (or forced to) credit an expense
accout ("capital losses") with the NLG 10 I lost, but instead I've managed
to get the books out of balance.
Now, I know that gnucash doesn't support "all aspects of multiple
currencies" (yet?) and that "some safety checks are still broken", so
it might very well be that I am doing something completely wrong here.
Could someone, however, please tell me how this is supposed to work
(ultimately)?
As an aside, in currency accounts the column TotShrs (an unfortunate name,
but that's not the point) seems to be the same as the column Balance.
Shouldn't the column TotShrs work the same was as in does in stock
accounts, namely be the total of all securities in all transactions?
[This is all based on a version of gnucash from cvs, somewhere end of
last week, in case that matters]
Peter van Rossum
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Gnucash Developer's List
To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Multiple currencies
Is there any way to change the balance currency in the main window to other than USD? Tamas Nagy "Best things in life are free..." Member of KOCR Team E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http:/www.tar.hu/nagytam
Re: multiple currencies
Peter van Rossum wrote: > > Hello, > > I have a problem with the way gnucash handles multiple currencies. This > might be a simple misunderstanding on my part or a bug; I just don't > know. <...> > Now, I know that gnucash doesn't support "all aspects of multiple > currencies" (yet?) and that "some safety checks are still broken", so > it might very well be that I am doing something completely wrong here. > Could someone, however, please tell me how this is supposed to work > (ultimately)? Hi. There is the same problem with stock accounts and stock price changes. We need some sort of intelligent automatic solution here but since we don't have one now there is now ultimate solution to this problem yet :-(. I quote a part of a stock price change discussion on the list. (This discussion took place in February 2000, if you want to see it all, look at the mailing list archive) Herbert. > > > > Now how do you enter stock purchase or sale? I think as a transfer > > > from a bank account to a stock account or vice versa. Again no > > > income/expense account involved... (Exept for transaction fees ;-)) > > > > This is an ambiguous situation, as there are multiple *valid* > > perspectives: > > > > ---> From the perspective of taxation, a gain on a stock that has not > > been "actualized" by sale at the higher price is *not* a > > gain/profit for tax purposes. > > Agreed, at least with current german tax laws. > > > ---> From my perspective as someone tracking the state of my > > portfolio, I don't care that the government doesn't think I've > > got a gain; I'm concerned about whether my portfolio is gaining > > in value, and I'm glad to see the gain. > > Again agreed. I want to see stock gains/losses. > > John Hasler wrote: > > Keep in mind that stock is not money. You are not making transfers between > > bank and stock accounts: you are buying and selling property. Your 'stock > > accounts' are really inventories > > That's a point. It would mean to treat stock like a tradesman treats > commodities. > But then the price must remain the purchase price. On sale this value > gets transfered to a bank acoount and any profit/loss comes from an > income/expense account. -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 12:11:27PM +0200, Herbert Thoma wrote: > Peter van Rossum wrote: > > I have a problem with the way gnucash handles multiple currencies. This > > might be a simple misunderstanding on my part or a bug; I just don't > > know. [...] > There is the same problem with stock accounts and stock price changes. > We need some sort of intelligent automatic solution here but since > we don't have one now there is now ultimate solution to this problem > yet :-(. > > I quote a part of a stock price change discussion on the list. > (This discussion took place in February 2000, if you want to see > it all, look at the mailing list archive) Thanks. I'll look through the archives to see what is said there. I do have the impression, though, that the problem with multiple currencies is even worse. If I buy 100 shares at $20 and then another 100 shares at $30, I have a total number of 200 shares at a value of $5000 (at least, I hope that's what gnucash does and not 200 x $30 = $6000; I haven't checked...). If I then sell them all at $40, I have 0 shares in the account at a value of -$3000. I "solve" this by moving $3000 dollar to this account from an income account called "Capital Gains" under the pretext of "re- evaluting stock". This way, money is occasinally in a weird account, but at least doesn't disappear to nowhere or appear from nowhere, which is what happens in the multiple currencies case... Anyway, like I said, I'll look through the archives to see what everybody else has said about this. I may even look through an accountancy book to see how it is solved there, because this doesn't like like a problem that is specifically related to gnucash, but to accountancy in general. Peter -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
Peter van Rossum wrote: > Thanks. I'll look through the archives to see what is said there. I > do have the impression, though, that the problem with multiple currencies > is even worse. If I buy 100 shares at $20 and then another 100 shares > at $30, I have a total number of 200 shares at a value of $5000 (at least, > I hope that's what gnucash does and not 200 x $30 = $6000; I haven't > checked...). Actually GnuCash does 200 x $30. But I think most people want it this way. Your way (100 x $20 + 100 x $30) is "how much spent". Most people want "current worth". They do daily stock price update with gnc-prices and want to see their current value. So you must do nr_of_shares x current_price. Herbert -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:50:05 +0200, the world broke into rejoicing as Herbert Thoma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Peter van Rossum wrote: > > Thanks. I'll look through the archives to see what is said there. I > > do have the impression, though, that the problem with multiple currencies > > is even worse. If I buy 100 shares at $20 and then another 100 shares > > at $30, I have a total number of 200 shares at a value of $5000 (at least, > > I hope that's what gnucash does and not 200 x $30 = $6000; I haven't > > checked...). > > Actually GnuCash does 200 x $30. But I think most people want it this > way. Your way (100 x $20 + 100 x $30) is "how much spent". Most people > want "current worth". They do daily stock price update with gnc-prices > and want to see their current value. So you must do > nr_of_shares x current_price. The question is whether that's what you report in the _register_, or if that is what is reported in the share value reports. My inclination (which is somewhat educated in the matter :-)) is to have the register report _Cost._ Cost does not change over time, and since it tends to reflect cash changing hands, it is _fairly_ objective. Furthermore, this approach has the _further_ merit that the register's contents don't have to change every time the portfolio gets revalued based on the latest prices. The alternative is that the amounts in the register keep changing, and you have to have a "split" on the transaction that changes value every time prices come in. That would be rather _neat,_ but not terribly sensible. Transactions _shouldn't_ change all the time. -- "The only ``intuitive'' interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned." -- Bruce Ediger, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on X interfaces. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html> -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
Christopher Browne wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:50:05 +0200, the world broke into rejoicing as > Herbert Thoma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > Peter van Rossum wrote: > > > Thanks. I'll look through the archives to see what is said there. I > > > do have the impression, though, that the problem with multiple currencies > > > is even worse. If I buy 100 shares at $20 and then another 100 shares > > > at $30, I have a total number of 200 shares at a value of $5000 (at least, > > > I hope that's what gnucash does and not 200 x $30 = $6000; I haven't > > > checked...). > > > > Actually GnuCash does 200 x $30. But I think most people want it this > > way. Your way (100 x $20 + 100 x $30) is "how much spent". Most people > > want "current worth". They do daily stock price update with gnc-prices > > and want to see their current value. So you must do > > nr_of_shares x current_price. > > The question is whether that's what you report in the _register_, > or if that is what is reported in the share value reports. > > My inclination (which is somewhat educated in the matter :-)) is to have > the register report _Cost._ Cost does not change over time, and since > it tends to reflect cash changing hands, it is _fairly_ objective. I agree. But I think that the engine does not work this way, although I don't know the engine well enough to be sure. I think the engine works this way: It has a balance of total shares and the most recent price per share. The reported balance then gets total_shares x price_per_share. To do it right we may have to change the engine and the stock register. All those who know the engine better, please comment. Herbert. -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
> Christopher Browne wrote: > > > > > > My inclination (which is somewhat educated in the matter :-)) is to have > > the register report _Cost._ Cost does not change over time, and since > > it tends to reflect cash changing hands, it is _fairly_ objective. > > I agree. But I think that the engine does not work this way, although > I don't know the engine well enough to be sure. I think the engine > works this way: It has a balance of total shares and the most recent > price per share. The reported balance then gets total_shares x price_per_share. > To do it right we may have to change the engine and the stock register. > > All those who know the engine better, please comment. It sounds to me that when the balance changes because of price changes, this needs to be realized by a transaction, which, of course, needs to be balanced by an entry into some kind of unrealized capital gains account. -- hendrik. -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
> > > way. Your way (100 x $20 + 100 x $30) is "how much spent". Most people > > > want "current worth". They do daily stock price update with gnc-prices > > > and want to see their current value. So you must do > > > nr_of_shares x current_price. > > > > The question is whether that's what you report in the _register_, > > or if that is what is reported in the share value reports. > > > > My inclination (which is somewhat educated in the matter :-)) is to have > > the register report _Cost._ Cost does not change over time, and since > > it tends to reflect cash changing hands, it is _fairly_ objective. > > I agree. But I think that the engine does not work this way, although > I don't know the engine well enough to be sure. I think the engine > works this way: It has a balance of total shares and the most recent > price per share. The reported balance then gets total_shares x price_per_shar > To do it right we may have to change the engine and the stock register. > > All those who know the engine better, please comment. The engine works as you describe above. I should mention that the engine also computes the cost basis, which is what I believe you are talking about above. dave -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
Dave Peticolas wrote: > > The engine works as you describe above. I should mention that > the engine also computes the cost basis, which is what I believe > you are talking about above. Really? Great! How can I access the cost basis in the GUI? Can I see it in the current verion of GnuCash? Herbert. -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
> Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > > The engine works as you describe above. I should mention that > > the engine also computes the cost basis, which is what I believe > > you are talking about above. > > Really? Great! How can I access the cost basis in the GUI? > Can I see it in the current verion of GnuCash? Right now I believe it is only used in the Portfolio report, under the 'cost' column. dave -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > > > > The engine works as you describe above. I should mention that > > > the engine also computes the cost basis, which is what I believe > > > you are talking about above. > > > > Really? Great! How can I access the cost basis in the GUI? > > Can I see it in the current verion of GnuCash? > > Right now I believe it is only used in the Portfolio report, > under the 'cost' column. I checked this, and I have a bug report: The cost value is wrong sometimes. There seem to be two error situations: - accounts with an opening balance not equal 0. - accounts where shares are partly sold and later bought again. Herbert. -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
> Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > > > Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > > > > > > The engine works as you describe above. I should mention that > > > > the engine also computes the cost basis, which is what I believe > > > > you are talking about above. > > > > > > Really? Great! How can I access the cost basis in the GUI? > > > Can I see it in the current verion of GnuCash? > > > > Right now I believe it is only used in the Portfolio report, > > under the 'cost' column. > > I checked this, and I have a bug report: > > The cost value is wrong sometimes. There seem to be two > error situations: > > - accounts with an opening balance not equal 0. > > - accounts where shares are partly sold and later bought again. Are you sure these are wrong? By default, the cost is computed with FIFO accounting. Could you given an example? thanks, dave -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > Right now I believe it is only used in the Portfolio report, > > > under the 'cost' column. > > > > I checked this, and I have a bug report: > > > > The cost value is wrong sometimes. There seem to be two > > error situations: > > > > - accounts with an opening balance not equal 0. > > > > - accounts where shares are partly sold and later bought again. > > Are you sure these are wrong? By default, the cost is computed > with FIFO accounting. Could you given an example? OK, an example (real world numbers): datedescription sold bought price value tot.shrs. total 01.01.1999 opening balance 102.319 147.65 15107.40 102.31915107.40 25.05.1999 price 170.47102.31917442.32 12.11.1999 dividend0.533 195.56104.23 102.85220113.74 31.12.1999 fee 0.086 224.84-19.34 102.76623106.11 The cost basis here is 15107.40 + 104.23 - 19.34 = 15192.29, right? The portfolio report states costs of 30202.10, this is definitely wrong. BTW: How do I enter a stock sale "the right way"? A stock sale consists of at least 3 splits: 1.) a split to get the shares out of the account 2.) a split for profits/losses to an income/expense account 3.) fees Example: Bought 5 shares for 40.00 and 5 for 60.00, then sell 10 shares for 100.00 with fees 20.00. I get 1000.00 for the 10 shares and I must enter 1.) sell 10 shares for 50.00 2.) profit 480.00 3.) fees 20.00 Now everything sums up to 0, so I think this is a "right way", but the split 1.) (sell 10 for 50.00, whereas the actual price is 100.0) looks ugly. Herbert. -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
> Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > > Right now I believe it is only used in the Portfolio report, > > > > under the 'cost' column. > > > > > > I checked this, and I have a bug report: > > > > > > The cost value is wrong sometimes. There seem to be two > > > error situations: > > > > > > - accounts with an opening balance not equal 0. > > > > > > - accounts where shares are partly sold and later bought again. > > > > Are you sure these are wrong? By default, the cost is computed > > with FIFO accounting. Could you given an example? > > OK, an example (real world numbers): > > datedescription sold bought price value tot.shrs. t > otal > 01.01.1999 opening balance 102.319 147.65 15107.40 102.3191 > 5107.40 > 25.05.1999 price 170.47102.3191 > 7442.32 > 12.11.1999 dividend0.533 195.56104.23 102.8522 > 0113.74 > 31.12.1999 fee 0.086 224.84-19.34 102.7662 > 3106.11 > > The cost basis here is 15107.40 + 104.23 - 19.34 = 15192.29, right? With FIFO accounting, I believe it should be 15107.40 + 104.23 - (.086 * 147.65) In other words, when you sold the shares, you sold the 'first' ones you bought. > The portfolio report states costs of 30202.10, this is definitely wrong. Yes, that seems wrong. I'll look into this. thanks, dave -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
> Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > > Right now I believe it is only used in the Portfolio report, > > > > under the 'cost' column. > > > > > > I checked this, and I have a bug report: > > > > > > The cost value is wrong sometimes. There seem to be two > > > error situations: > > > > > > - accounts with an opening balance not equal 0. > > > > > > - accounts where shares are partly sold and later bought again. > > > > Are you sure these are wrong? By default, the cost is computed > > with FIFO accounting. Could you given an example? > > OK, an example (real world numbers): > > datedescription sold bought price value tot.shrs. t > otal > 01.01.1999 opening balance 102.319 147.65 15107.40 102.3191 > 5107.40 > 25.05.1999 price 170.47102.3191 > 7442.32 > 12.11.1999 dividend0.533 195.56104.23 102.8522 > 0113.74 > 31.12.1999 fee 0.086 224.84-19.34 102.7662 > 3106.11 > > The cost basis here is 15107.40 + 104.23 - 19.34 = 15192.29, right? > > The portfolio report states costs of 30202.10, this is definitely wrong. Ok, this should be fixed now. thanks, dave -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple currencies
Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > Dave Peticolas wrote: > > > > > Right now I believe it is only used in the Portfolio report, > > > > > under the 'cost' column. > > > > > > > > I checked this, and I have a bug report: <...> > Ok, this should be fixed now. Yes, fixed. Thank you, dave! Herbert. -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ -- Gnucash Developer's List To unsubscribe send empty email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Multiple currencies
Tamas Nagy wrote: > > Is there any way to change the balance currency in the main window to other > than USD? What version of GnuCash are you using? In 1.3.7 the balances of the individual accounts should display the account's currency. The currency in the status line is determined by the locale, so try export LC_ALL=hu_HU Herbert. -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/
Re: Patch to make profit & loss handle multiple currencies.
Gordon Oliver wrote: > > Hi. > Here goes another multi-currency patch. This still has bugs when there > are accounts deeper than 2 levels that are in different currencies (it will > display the previous broken behaviour, rather than the new fixed behaviour). > Let me know if you like/dislike how this is done... I could extend it for > further statistics gathering/other reports. > -gordo Hi! I like this patch! Two levels are sufficient for me, but it should definitely work correct for any number of levels :-). Herbert. -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Weichselgarten3, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ ___ gnucash-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gnumatic.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
